Won't mega mence be just as broken in VGC doubles? Everyone's gonna have to run weavile and mamoswine or their own mence to win then?
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Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)
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Uh, lol… I'm pretty sure if we unbanned every mega that went up to ubers during X and Y then Mence would still be over-centralizing as fuck and better than all of them.
Smogon don't use one broken pokemon to fix another as Norne said, but even if they did in this case it wouldn't work because Mega Salamence is better than everything we have seen. It's arguably the most outrageously broken pokemon to ever come to ou, the only pokemon that even comes close is Khan.
It is so ridiculous that it wouldn't actually give a fuck if ubers were dropped to OU, it would just steamroll them like it does with the rest of the tier.
Smogon don't use one broken pokemon to fix another as Norne said, but even if they did in this case it wouldn't work because Mega Salamence is better than everything we have seen. It's arguably the most outrageously broken pokemon to ever come to ou, the only pokemon that even comes close is Khan.
It is so ridiculous that it wouldn't actually give a fuck if ubers were dropped to OU, it would just steamroll them like it does with the rest of the tier.
Ive played ORAS the past few these, so I feel like sharing my thoughts about Mega Salamence:
Mega Salamence is completetly broken. It has good bulk + intimidate which allows him to sweep even against pokemons like LandorusT and it can block RotomW's WoW with its Substitute moveset. Not even Skarmory can do much to it (just WW it, risking to take a Fire Blast in the face from the special moveset). It pretty much only needs one Dragon Dance to easily sweep entire teams (or two if it is running bulky Dragon Dance moveset), thanks to its ability Aerilate, ridiculously overcentralizing the metagame around it (a bit more than Mega Lucario did, in my opinion). Just as curiosity, Jolly+1 Mega Salamence outspeeds even Adamant Excadrill in the Sandstorm and neutral speed Kingdra in the Rain. Altough Im not a fan of quickbans, as we are close to SPL start banning the obviously broken megas so we have a more healthy and competitive metagame seems very reasonable to me.
Mega Salamence is completetly broken. It has good bulk + intimidate which allows him to sweep even against pokemons like LandorusT and it can block RotomW's WoW with its Substitute moveset. Not even Skarmory can do much to it (just WW it, risking to take a Fire Blast in the face from the special moveset). It pretty much only needs one Dragon Dance to easily sweep entire teams (or two if it is running bulky Dragon Dance moveset), thanks to its ability Aerilate, ridiculously overcentralizing the metagame around it (a bit more than Mega Lucario did, in my opinion). Just as curiosity, Jolly+1 Mega Salamence outspeeds even Adamant Excadrill in the Sandstorm and neutral speed Kingdra in the Rain. Altough Im not a fan of quickbans, as we are close to SPL start banning the obviously broken megas so we have a more healthy and competitive metagame seems very reasonable to me.
But maybe 12 broken things does fix them all. It's completely impossible to foresee what kind of tier youd have if 25% of the ubers dropped down all at once, or if even a single influential one came for a suspect. And as for winning based on team preview, that is again very difficult to make a judgement on without actually being in the tier to experience it. "Glue" mons like thundurus and landorus and heatran might actually soften that team match up aspect quite a bit more than you anticipate.
Look, I still agree that if the tier is going to roughly stay right where it is then salamence has to go. But it's very possible that a lot of previous ubers and the new threats somehow randomly balance each other out quite well, which can't be determined at all without actually trying it out, and certainly can't be measured just by imagining a few bad battles where something really strong like lucario or mence gets an easy sweep. "Testing in a vacuum" and whatnot.
I'd say ban it because the stats are almost comparable with the god pokemon himself; Arceus. And also Salamence is just really powerful, I think it would do just fine in ubers since it does get access to Dragon Dance + Recovery. In OU this is just too broken and op as it easily sweeps teams, 1 DD and its over. I consider it as a one man army in OU. Quick ban is fine with me :]
Yes, bringing the 12 banned things back down might... """balance""" Mega Salamence.
At the cost of 90% of the remaining tier becoming unviable.
The arguments you're making are so short-sighted it's ridiculous; I don't need to see that bringing those things back down from Ubers would be a disaster by experiencing it just as much as I don't need to experience the moon coming down.
I agree with a quickban for Mega Salamence. Mega Salamence is not healthy for the metagame and the popularity of Scarf Greninja, Rotom-W, Skarmory and Mamoswine confirm this.
The great bulk Mega Salamence has makes it able to set up on very much pokemon. I have seen video's were Mega Salamence stalled a Rotom-W out of HP Ice and with the right build your substitute isn't broken by many strong attacks, giving it a free turn to set up a Dragon Dance. With 1 dragon dance behind a substitute Mega Salamence is able to sweep with ease and there is no way the impact this pokemon has on the metagame is good. A quickban for Mega Salamence is justified and I support this quickban
The great bulk Mega Salamence has makes it able to set up on very much pokemon. I have seen video's were Mega Salamence stalled a Rotom-W out of HP Ice and with the right build your substitute isn't broken by many strong attacks, giving it a free turn to set up a Dragon Dance. With 1 dragon dance behind a substitute Mega Salamence is able to sweep with ease and there is no way the impact this pokemon has on the metagame is good. A quickban for Mega Salamence is justified and I support this quickban
We had a time where all of these threats were available at the same time. It's called the Pre Mega Lucario ban period. How was it? It was bad enough that we banned all of the broken crap in the tier. Adding 1 more broken mon wouldn't balance the tier. Conversely, I don't see any of the past bans somehow magically fixing themselves if we test in in a vacuum. Lucario still has near-perfect coverage and 2 unique sets, the Deos still provide flawless support, Aegi is still magic glue, Mawile still 2HKOs the entire tier, etcs. As others have mentioned, redropping 12 mons would just create a mini-Ubers and vacuum testing is pointless since a lot of stuff was banned despite the presence of other broken threats.
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I don't want to be offensive, but you can say it out loud we are all friendly here, you just want to use aegislash and Salamence on the same team in PS.
Broken stuff are broken since 99% of the tier can't deal with them. The worst case scenario I can thin of is broken stuff synergizing even better with the new speedier and trading strategies, abusing that some pokemon need to drop a coverage move to get some utility.
It's a bad idea to the core, you complain about overcentralization, well you just killed and rendered 90% of the tier useless.
I think that it is unfair (given the game has only been out 9 hours for me) to dump mence so early.
Firstly, all the failed counters are physical attackers. You'll note that mega mence has a relatively squishy special defense. So it would be KO'd by the old-school ice beams and blizzards
Secondly, there is walling it. Now an excellent choice for removing a physical mence (I haven't read any rants about mix mence yet) would be either a mega aggron or an avalugg. Now I know what you're thinking, But avalugg has towering defense, stab on ice type attacks, and can recover in addition to providing rapid spin support. As for aggron, it's base 230 defense will stop any physical attack. So, assuming it doesn't switch out, it can be forced to do so via dragon tail.
Finally, Let's consider other megas. The smogon community has banned several, like lucario, gengar, and kangaskhan. But there are megas like alakazam, aerodactyl, but ultimately the best would have to be mega altaria, who is immune to dragon type stab, Resistant to as number of common coverage moves, and last but not least can slam mega mence with a pixelated hyper voice or a moonblast. Oh it also has excellent recovery and cotton guard for actual defense
So let's not be hasty in banning mega mence. Since its only 9 hours into the release
Firstly, all the failed counters are physical attackers. You'll note that mega mence has a relatively squishy special defense. So it would be KO'd by the old-school ice beams and blizzards
Secondly, there is walling it. Now an excellent choice for removing a physical mence (I haven't read any rants about mix mence yet) would be either a mega aggron or an avalugg. Now I know what you're thinking, But avalugg has towering defense, stab on ice type attacks, and can recover in addition to providing rapid spin support. As for aggron, it's base 230 defense will stop any physical attack. So, assuming it doesn't switch out, it can be forced to do so via dragon tail.
Finally, Let's consider other megas. The smogon community has banned several, like lucario, gengar, and kangaskhan. But there are megas like alakazam, aerodactyl, but ultimately the best would have to be mega altaria, who is immune to dragon type stab, Resistant to as number of common coverage moves, and last but not least can slam mega mence with a pixelated hyper voice or a moonblast. Oh it also has excellent recovery and cotton guard for actual defense
So let's not be hasty in banning mega mence. Since its only 9 hours into the release
That's seriously just not true at all, if even a single threat came back down it'd have all kinds of effects pushing the viability of certain things UP and while also pushing other things down. And no matter how powerful OU is, pokemon like excadrill, tyranitar, azumarill, thundurus, chansey, keldeo etc etc etc are always going to be around. They're already in OU for a reason and they dont suddenly become unviable just because another strong thing is around.
I'll phrase my thoughts like this:
"If there were to be a time period where a large amount of previous ubers/suspects all came into OU, it would not be clear at all if mega salamence actually gets banned, because he might start to get checked harder and prevented from running his best movesets, either in the interest of obscure coverage moves or unfavorable EV spreads"
If people are starting to use unviable things like Avalugg in OU to try to stop this thing, I think the evidence speaks for itself, and it needs to be banned.
We've been able to use MegaMence for a few weeks now since ProjectPokemon datamined the Demo, it's definitely proven to be the best and most powerful mega so far and can beat pretty much everything in OU 1on1
Name a special ice priority. Since 120 speed and Lo stab Aerilate can Ohko every speedy attacker after SR
Force every team to carry your "counters" wich are mere checks.
More broken mons, don't fix other broken mons, they just leave us with more brokenness and 90% of the tier is left irrelevant due to their presence.
Your 9 hours are pointless we had a month testing it, and it is broken.
Ok, let's go!
1) Tell me, how many special attackers with Ice-type moves can actually take on Mega-Mence? As in, either switch into it or outspeed it and OHKO it.
2) Great, you've now walled physical Mega-Mence. Now what? It's not like they can do anything to Mega-Mence outside of phazing, or that Avalugg is viable...
3) Mega-Aerodactyl can check, but it's an outstanding amount of ONE Pokemon that can take on Mega Mence. Mega Alakazam cannot switch in and always loses if Mence is behind a sub. How would Mega-Altaria stop Mega-Mence? Its most common move is Return...
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I agree with a quickban. The metagame is really unhealthy with it around, as so many ORAS teams use it. Its huge physical bulk means that it can live an Ice Shard from Mamoswine and OHKO back. It has many options, including physical, special, and mixed sets...and I haven't even mentioned Aerilate yet. It's stupidly powerful and once it gets behind that sub and starts dancing, gg.
The fact you need to run M-Aggron and Avalugg to have a chance against Mega Salamence just makes clear he has a bad impact on the metagame
lol the unanimous choir of people claiming it's broken kinda seals this thing's fate. But I'll post anyway :
To be fair, MMence can actually be defeated. Offense can deal enough chip damage to it while it tries to set up to revenge kill it with an Ice Shard user. More balanced and defensive teams can run something like Skarmory, Zapdos, Cresselia, P2, etc... But the thing is, the amount of preparation required to beat MMence is completely overwhelming. If there's anything that shows how much MMence bends the tier in half, it's the fact that teams are running Banded Weavile, Scarf Greninja, 168 SpA or something Rotom-W and HP Ice/Ice Punch on literally everything. People are prepared for this thing, they have absolutely adapted to it. And it's still way to much for people to handle.
On the ladder, Sub DD Mence is the most common Mence set by far and I'm pretty sure you can do alright in ORAS by just running Taunt Counter Skarm as your Mence counter as a result of that. But while that set is certainly very good, I feel like people are kinda wasting Mence's potential by sticking to it, because so many of its would-be counters just get ruined by a random coverage move. You can run Fire Blast to lure Skarm, you can run Draco Meteor for Zapdos/Rotom-W/Rhyperior, you can run Hyper Voice for Slowbro, etc. If you think MMence is scary now, imagine what it would be like if people got creative with the sets, and you'd have no idea if your Air Baloon HP Ice Hetaran will end up on the receiving end of a Hydro Pump. Personally, my favorite MMence set is DD/Return/Fire Blast/Draco Meteor. Fire Blast+Draco smashes like, half of Mence's switchins, and once said switchins are gone you can then sweep with DD+Return which is really all you need at the end of the day. Also, when people see DD they always think Skarm or Rotom-W can easily switch into it, unfortunately that is not the case. If anything people are not abusing MMence enough imo, if it seems underwhelming to anyone for any reason it's because people just spam that one set which quite frankly is becoming predictable and boring.
There is literally no downside to using MMence, it is amazing against every playstyle. I think it's kinda telling that a Pokemon that is, thanks to its ability to go mixed, a better wallbreaker than MPinsir (who was one of the best wallbreakers in the tier), is actually worse vs Stall than any other playstyle. Oh sure, Stall hates it, especially the mixed set. But at least Stall has switchins. Usually, when you are running offense, you can consider yourself well covered against a threat if said threat can't switch into something on your team more times than you can send something else in on it return. For MMence this is simply impossible. You cannot make a competent offensive OU team atm without at least having 1 or 2 Pokemon which give MMence a free switchin. And what switchins does offense have for MMence? Thundurus once? Anything else is screwed if it DDs on the switch which it does very, very easily. MMence is ridiculously good vs offense, it may even be better in that matchup than Greninja (a Pokemon that harasses offense so hard it's almost guaranteed to be next in like for suspect) since it has effectively the same speed tier, FAR more bulk, recovery, and relies less on prediction. I mean yeah I guess it's slow pre-mega but thanks to Intimidate and its resistances it Megas so easily even vs offense it's a joke. It's also amazing vs balance because it can just continuously wear down its checks, and tank like 90% of hits any balanced team can muster thanks to its ridiculous bulk which, need I remind you, is higher than that of Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Slowbro, and on par with that of Tangrowth and Hippowdon. Because yeah, MMence isn't just the single best offensive Pokemon in the tier, it's one of the best defensive ones too.
Right now there is little to no reason to seriously run a mega that isn't either MMence or MSableye, since any advantage or team synergy another mega could bring is completely trumped by MMence's ability to do whatever the hell it wants. With MMence you can literally just completely forgo defensive synergy, MMence+4 trappers is a thing that actually exists and it works. This thing singlehandedly causes ORAS OU, which should normally be a really solid tier, to be a absolute farce which no sane man would indulge in. Please quickban this, I don't want us to waste any more time, we have way more interesting discussions to have regarding the brokeness of Greninja and maybe a couple of ORAS megas too (though right now it's hard to see which ones are potentally broken behind all of the MMence) and I would like to start those as soon as possible.
To be fair, MMence can actually be defeated. Offense can deal enough chip damage to it while it tries to set up to revenge kill it with an Ice Shard user. More balanced and defensive teams can run something like Skarmory, Zapdos, Cresselia, P2, etc... But the thing is, the amount of preparation required to beat MMence is completely overwhelming. If there's anything that shows how much MMence bends the tier in half, it's the fact that teams are running Banded Weavile, Scarf Greninja, 168 SpA or something Rotom-W and HP Ice/Ice Punch on literally everything. People are prepared for this thing, they have absolutely adapted to it. And it's still way to much for people to handle.
On the ladder, Sub DD Mence is the most common Mence set by far and I'm pretty sure you can do alright in ORAS by just running Taunt Counter Skarm as your Mence counter as a result of that. But while that set is certainly very good, I feel like people are kinda wasting Mence's potential by sticking to it, because so many of its would-be counters just get ruined by a random coverage move. You can run Fire Blast to lure Skarm, you can run Draco Meteor for Zapdos/Rotom-W/Rhyperior, you can run Hyper Voice for Slowbro, etc. If you think MMence is scary now, imagine what it would be like if people got creative with the sets, and you'd have no idea if your Air Baloon HP Ice Hetaran will end up on the receiving end of a Hydro Pump. Personally, my favorite MMence set is DD/Return/Fire Blast/Draco Meteor. Fire Blast+Draco smashes like, half of Mence's switchins, and once said switchins are gone you can then sweep with DD+Return which is really all you need at the end of the day. Also, when people see DD they always think Skarm or Rotom-W can easily switch into it, unfortunately that is not the case. If anything people are not abusing MMence enough imo, if it seems underwhelming to anyone for any reason it's because people just spam that one set which quite frankly is becoming predictable and boring.
There is literally no downside to using MMence, it is amazing against every playstyle. I think it's kinda telling that a Pokemon that is, thanks to its ability to go mixed, a better wallbreaker than MPinsir (who was one of the best wallbreakers in the tier), is actually worse vs Stall than any other playstyle. Oh sure, Stall hates it, especially the mixed set. But at least Stall has switchins. Usually, when you are running offense, you can consider yourself well covered against a threat if said threat can't switch into something on your team more times than you can send something else in on it return. For MMence this is simply impossible. You cannot make a competent offensive OU team atm without at least having 1 or 2 Pokemon which give MMence a free switchin. And what switchins does offense have for MMence? Thundurus once? Anything else is screwed if it DDs on the switch which it does very, very easily. MMence is ridiculously good vs offense, it may even be better in that matchup than Greninja (a Pokemon that harasses offense so hard it's almost guaranteed to be next in like for suspect) since it has effectively the same speed tier, FAR more bulk, recovery, and relies less on prediction. I mean yeah I guess it's slow pre-mega but thanks to Intimidate and its resistances it Megas so easily even vs offense it's a joke. It's also amazing vs balance because it can just continuously wear down its checks, and tank like 90% of hits any balanced team can muster thanks to its ridiculous bulk which, need I remind you, is higher than that of Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Slowbro, and on par with that of Tangrowth and Hippowdon. Because yeah, MMence isn't just the single best offensive Pokemon in the tier, it's one of the best defensive ones too.
Right now there is little to no reason to seriously run a mega that isn't either MMence or MSableye, since any advantage or team synergy another mega could bring is completely trumped by MMence's ability to do whatever the hell it wants. With MMence you can literally just completely forgo defensive synergy, MMence+4 trappers is a thing that actually exists and it works. This thing singlehandedly causes ORAS OU, which should normally be a really solid tier, to be a absolute farce which no sane man would indulge in. Please quickban this, I don't want us to waste any more time, we have way more interesting discussions to have regarding the brokeness of Greninja and maybe a couple of ORAS megas too (though right now it's hard to see which ones are potentally broken behind all of the MMence) and I would like to start those as soon as possible.
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Umm Salamence has great special attack, and it doesn't have to run just one set, it can be mixed, you never can be sure. So using those said mons wouldnt be a counter
For anyone using the "Mega Mence hasn't been out for very long, let's not jump to conclusions" who actually read past posts, there has been an ORAS OU ladder for about a month. We have tested going up against it and using it for a decent while. It's not blind speculation.
Point 2: Fire Blast
Point 3: Calcs are down, but if I recall Mega Altaria doesn't like Returns either. See point 1 for the rest
Step 1: Anything more broken than Mega Salamence that was checking Mega Mence gets banned first for being broken (parallel: we banned Mega Lucario first and let Mega Mawile run free)
Step 2: Now Mega Salamence is the most broken mon in the tier because we banned his broken checks. (Parallel: we banned Mega Mawile after banning all of the more broken crap in the tier)
We'll just end up back where we started where now we have to consider banning Mega Mence
Point 1: most of the special attackers with Ice Beam get wiped out by +1 Return. God help them if they're behind a sub
Point 2: Fire Blast
Point 3: Calcs are down, but if I recall Mega Altaria doesn't like Returns either. See point 1 for the rest
Here's what happens in your scenario:
Step 1: Anything more broken than Mega Salamence that was checking Mega Mence gets banned first for being broken (parallel: we banned Mega Lucario first and let Mega Mawile run free)
Step 2: Now Mega Salamence is the most broken mon in the tier because we banned his broken checks. (Parallel: we banned Mega Mawile after banning all of the more broken crap in the tier)
We'll just end up back where we started where now we have to consider banning Mega Mence
Elegantly said! What else do you suspect might be broken?
Just when you know that Adamant Mamoswine Ice Shard deals around 50% to a x4 weakness Salamence makes me think of it's stupidly broken stats. It also sweeps entire teams and all the flying spam checks are no longer checks to this monster imo, it can setup on many things thanks to intimidate and its' defense boosts, I'm in favour of a quick ban.
Hello? Double targets? Mega mence can only KO one opponent at a time (spread move nerf)? Status?
Mega mence is good, but not overpowered in OU like VGC. Plus, choice scarf slalamence actually beats mega mence.
U sure bro? I just click the X on the top left and mega mence is gone. Works for me.
You can tell that to the likes of Jirachi, Mew, Terrakion, Starmie, etc.. which were severely hampered by the presence of Aegislash. Notice how their viability shot back up once Ghost Sword was out of the picture.
The failed counters include Ice Beam and Blizzard users that are too frail to switch into Mega Mence, be it into a boosted Mega Mence or simply a direct attack. The bottom-line is you usually won't be able to respond to MegaMence quickly enough before it tears you apart, even with Ice Beam users.
The DD + 3 attacks set can very easily go mixed and Fire Blast things such as Skarmory. They can even do Draco Meteor to pummel things like Rotom-W and Slowbro. You can never really feel safe around MegaMence until it reveals its attacks, and there is absolutely no room for error since MegaMence easily punishes mistakes with game-ending swings.
Yeah, but if you've any sort of experience with those broken Megas (Blaizken, Kangaskhan, Lucario, and Gengar), you'll realize we're talking about a Mega that is so much on another league that it renders other Megas not worth using. Many other Megas didn't even see the light of day when the broken Megas were around. Mega Altaria isn't even a great response since it isn't bulky enough to take repeated Aerilated attacks, and most MegaMences don't even carry Dragon moves.
There's an ORAS ladder that has been open for a good month or so; several players have witnessed MegaMence's performance firsthand, and many want it gone since it is very comparable with the likes of Luke and Kangaskhan in terms of centralization.
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Nobody uses Scarf Salamence because it's awful in OU. If you're using a Scarfer, go with something like Greninja or Latios. You're really disregarding everything that makes Mega Salamence as absurdly powerful as it is, namely its set-up bulk, immense power, great Speed, awesome movepool and massive versatility.
Also, just what do you mean with 'the X on the top left'? I don't get it.
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