Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

[ginganinja]

Cmon guys, don't respond to 56K, you just end up feeding the troll, and I'm perfectly capable at handling that on my own. Why don't we talk about the current metagame with Mega Salamence, so that those (that don't play but want an opinion), can understand why people are largely pro quickban.

 

[SilverPT]

3. Mind your tone? Or we'll just end the discussion and pin the Facebook backlash on you. You're not helping end the circle jerk with this post, only furthering it.

I don't think that threatening and/or insulting any of the Facebook backseat commenters (even if you have reason) is the best image that a Mod can give (it will certainly not erase the elitist image that people think you guys have). Especially when I already posted my opinion (twice iirc) about banning or not Mega Salamence. The ones that are not helping ending your so called "circle jerk" are the Council tbh, since this discussion is more than over. Or are you expecting someone to come and give cons (or more pros) about banning Mega Salamence after 14 pages of "discussion"? We could seriously be investing our time in a serious suspect test atm.

 

[trikx_insane]

56k ,

Your arguments make absolute no sense and are illogical. I couldn't bare reading through your arguments and points, as they made me throw up the more I read.

"1. Mence is overcentralizing because there are no other good options and his teammates don't need to worry about previous ubers."

Hide

You admit M-Mence is over centralizing the OU Metagame. One way to contradict yourself, and one reason why it should be banned. There still are good options other than Mega-Mence but the overall cost of Mega-Mence over any other Mega, is extremely rewarding. Saying his teammates don't have to worry about previous ubers is stupid, because even if we do allow "previous ubers" back in tier, players can then look into countering/checking these counters/checks or 'previous ubers'. It really isn't that hard to do.


So how will re-suspecting/dropping mons' from Ubers do any good? You say we should reopen OU to these Ubers mons' so we can have offensive mons' on par with M-Mence. Your definition by this means we should over centralize the metagame from Mega-Mence to a small handful of broken threats. Which is even more ridiculous. I hope you do realize things in Ubers or banned to Ubers are there for a reason. By 'opening up OU' means the only way to win is using broken threats or super counter teams and saying 'fuck you, you lose' to those who want to use teams that don't use broken threats or a counter team to these broken threats. This is why we have tiers for a reason, to balance the metagame and allow Pokemon to shine in a certain group they're comfortable and capable of handling.

"2. Switching in should be difficult to do. You shouldn't be able to run something that is barely bulky enough against the meta and is also powerful and fast."

Hide

Your second point says we shouldn't be allowed to run things that aren't fairly bulky. What kind of logical argument is this? Why shouldn't I be able to run mons' that are frail, but provide good offense? Are you saying we should resort to a more defensive metagame to take care of highly offensive threats? Just because a mon' isn't somewhat defensive or bulky, doesn't mean we shouldn't run it. Does this mean I shouldn't be running Greninja? No, Greninja is a great mon' for its offensive power and speed. It's ridiculous of you to say, people shouldn't use mons' that aren't relatively bulky. It's like you're trying to force us into a more defensive metagame, and that's all because of Mega-Mence. Tell me, what kind of ridiculous metagame you're describing, has some philosophical rule or justification, that bringing Pokemon with bad bulk but good offense is a bad idea. You're proving yourself wrong by basically saying, we should shift the whole metagame playstyle just so Mega-Mence can fit in OU. Like seriously, no. Pokemon shouldn't be ruled out of a team because they don't have "relatively good bulk". We also shouldn't be doing absurd things, like changing our playstyle and making certain archetypes and playstyles viable. Another lame arguement.

Why should switching out be difficult to do? Sure, you should be punished for having a disadvantage in matchup, so you have to switch, but it shouldn't be to the point, where switching out forces you to lose 99% of the time. There's already Pursuit, Hazards and Predictions, what more can you ask? Switching is a part of the game, and if the opponent is going to lose more from switching for making the safest play, then you know it's absolutely ridiculous.

"3. Only stall teams should be capable of switching against the top threats."

Hide

lol. I can't explain how stupid this sounds. So only a 'specific archetype' of a team is able to handle top threats. In other words, M-Mence (and other broken threats) shits on 95% of the meta and only 5% can handle it, awesome. Great, another way to prove yourself wrong, and another lame argument. Why should it be, we allow top tier broken threats in the metagame, when only certain Pokemon or an Archetype can handle them? It's like solving 99 to the 20th power without a calculator.

"5. No one can say what the meta would even look like. It might surprise everyone and be better than you expect"

Hide

We can't say what the metagame will be? lol. I'm pretty sure 99% of the teams will carry Shaymin-Sky/Khang/Luc/Maw/Aegis/etc because they're top tier threats and are the best cost of using a mega-slot or team-slot. Fun metagame with such variety and where only broken threats are used, isn't it? Your view of adding broken threats that were previously suspected so that they can be on par with M-Mence's power, like I said, is just over centralizing the over centralization M-Mence has done, which is even worst. You're limiting what the metagame can do and handle, and it's variety in archetypes, teambuilding, etc.

"6. "Nothing can switch into kangaskhan/deoxys/xxxxx" -- this is part of the game. Stall teams scout the moves or status and offense teams pressure it."

Hide

Not being able to switch, or forced to lose in a lose/lose situation, is not part of a metagame. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, since you think it's so easy to scout the moves or pressure. Oh, and your own statement opposes yourself. How can stall teams scout the moves and offensive teams pressure if nothing can switch into it like you said? The cost of scouting and pressuring, is at the cost of switching. It's like Deoxys-S LO Set, I can go for Psycho Boost on Mega-Venu but instead predict my opponent's switch, into Chansey and click Superpower, and bam, gone. Or, you know, I can go for Psycho Boost on Mega-Venu, and still win the situation. Pokemon that can always win these situations are deemed broken because it's guaranteed they always win the situation, and have high reward-low risk. Opponents shouldn't be losing the situation 99% of the time, if they're going to switch, in order to make the right and safe play.

"7. Please re-evaluate everything. It's not a waste of time if it's exciting, challenging, fun, and certainly worthwhile"

Hide

if it's exciting, challenging, fun, and certainly worthwhile" lol.

tl;dr You're ability to contradict your own views is absolute hilarious and makes you look like a fool to Smogon. Admitting Mega Salamence is overly powerful and then coming up or representing your outrageous ideas out of this world to keep M-Mence in the tier shows how broken Mence is. You're very delusional and blind on how the OU metagame works and is. Your ideas and beliefs to make a new ideal metagame, or balanced OU metagame by retesting or putting Pokemon that got sent Ubers is absolutely absurd, basically making OU, semi-Ubers. I suggest, you first understand what an ideal OU Metagame looks like and then compare it to Ubers. They have absolutely no similarities on how each metagame functions and its current state of. If you're coming up with outrageous ideas just to keep M-Mence in the OU Tier, you know something is wrong, so stop.

The point of this QuickBan Discussion to discuss how Mega-Mence fairs with the OU tier as it is right now, not to discuss the future of the OU tier or discuss how we should keep/balance Mega-Mence for the fanboys *cough* HydreigonIsOP . Call us "ban-happy". We don't give a shit. No one is telling you to play by our rules, so stop discussing ways to balance M-Mence just for it to be in the tier.

Gosh, I wish this thing was banned so I can return to play the ladder happily ever after.

Edit: Didn't see your post until now ginganinja , so I'll stop, as I'm done responding to this guy.

 

[Force Majeure]

I understand you are trying to stop people from getting crazy, but there really isn't much to be said, Nix. Also calling people idiots probably won't help that either.

I'm fine with mods calling people out for saying silly things, and a pattern of repeating silly things in res. M-Mence does suggest that someone is being an idiot. IF people were able to create arguments detailing why M-Mence should not be quick-banned, those arguments would be considered. The problem is that most, if not all of the arguments made against a quick ban either break the guidelines of Smogon's tiering philosophy, are based on a particular affinity for M-Mence, or are made without adequate knowledge of the metagame. I wouldn't call them idiots initially, but after seeing many of the same anti-ban arguments debunked repeatedly, those who continue to make them do appear idiotic.

I don't think that threatening and/or insulting any of the Facebook backseat commenters (even if you have reason) is the best image that a Mod can give (it will certainly not erase the elitist image that people think you guys have). Especially when I already posted my opinion (twice iirc) about banning or not Mega Salamence. The ones that are not helping ending your so called "circle jerk" are the Council tbh, since this discussion is more than over. Or are you expecting someone to come and give cons (or more pros) about banning Mega Salamence after 14 pages of "discussion"? We could seriously be investing our time in a serious suspect test atm.

The purpose of this thread from my very limited understanding is to allow the community to share its thoughts about M-Mence and its effect on the metagame. This creates an overwhelming preponderance of evidence that M-Mence is overpowered, overcentralizing. This evidence will likely be used in lieu of a suspect test to show that this decision is made with input from the community. It's about due process, and is the opposite of elitist. It's all about finding consensus, and consensus is not a circlejerk.

 

[Celticpride]

I don't think that threatening and/or insulting any of the Facebook backseat commenters (even if you have reason) is the best image that a Mod can give (it will certainly not erase the elitist image that people think you guys have).

If the Facebook people want to comment, they can make an account and do so here. There's no reason they can't, there's no minimum post count required to post in this thread (which is what we should implement but whatever). Backseat commenters should be called out because they usually don't have the balls to come and post here themselves. It's easy to take shots using terrible logic from afar.

 

[SilverPT]

The purpose of this thread from my very limited understanding is to allow the community to share its thoughts about M-Mence and its effect on the metagame. This creates an overwhelming preponderance of evidence that M-Mence is overpowered, overcentralizing. This evidence will likely be used in lieu of a suspect test to show that this decision is made with input from the community. It's about due process, and is the opposite of elitist. It's all about finding consensus, and consensus is not a circlejerk.

How long has Mega Mence been on the ladder? One month? As I said already, this mon was deemed broken from the start. And it's not like we need more time, battles or usage to analyse that. I can give the benefit of the doubt to the Council in wanting to hear the community when we're talking about suspect test, quick bans, etc, because it affects all of us. But this was completely unnecessary, imo, especially when we are talking about dragging this for at least 10 more pages (do we need more pages to find more consensus than we already have? All the cons presented were weak and/or illogical). Mega Salamence is just like Mega Gengar and Mega Blaziken. Yes, there are ways to defeat them, but that doesn't make them any less broken. We could be discussing other mons that really deserve a suspect test thus improving our metagame. Atm we're just burning time.

If the Facebook people want to comment, they can make an account and do so here. There's no reason they can't, there's no minimum post count required to post in this thread (which is what we should implement but whatever). Backseat commenters should be called out because they usually don't have the balls to come and post here themselves. It's easy to take shots using terrible logic from afar.

That defeats the purpose of having a page there. People are free to comment where they want, that doesn't make them more or less intelligent or deprives them from having reason or being right. I just think it was so wrong threatening and putting me in the same bag as the facebook backseat commenters (me posting here completely contradicts the definition itself) lol

 

[Vengeance417]

People here are saying that MegaMence has the coverage to be uncounterable, but the funny thing is that he doesn't even NEED to run coverage at all. A simple set of SubRoostDD and Frustration can sweep an entire team, even against resisted hits.

Salamence may be my favorite Dragon type Pokemon of all time, but I have to face reality and see that he's detrimental to the OU metagame. If you're not running at least two or three checks to this monster, your team's gonna die...

 

[DaVolterbomb]

Alright, we really have no reason to not close the thread now. The thread is turning cancer and we are only attracting the same arguments and shit. There is no reason to proceed with the thread, as this guy is obviously broken and ruins the meta. Just because of MMence, i actually hate the metagame.
It really shouldn't be that hard to ban a pokemon from a tier at all, after 200+ petitions to ban, i think were ready for a MMence-less meta.

I understand this post will be deleted, but I'm still stating a valid fact.

 

[Yayz]

Question: why is the OU council posting a thread about "maybe we'll quickban MegaMence, what do you guys think?" instead of just quickbanning like at the beginning of XY with Blaziken, Mega Kanga, and Mega Gengar? Not a jab, but a genuine wonder.

 

[Celticpride]

Question: why is the OU council posting a thread about "maybe we'll quickban MegaMence, what do you guys think?" instead of just quickbanning like at the beginning of XY with Blaziken, Mega Kanga, and Mega Gengar? Not a jab, but a genuine wonder.

So we can say we gave the public input when morons say "da concil banz wat thy cant beat lol smorons"

Also, there were threads about quickbanning Kanga and Gengar iirc.

Josh Morales he was asking about the opening of the thread in general, not why it's still open.

 

[tigers jaw]

Question: why is the OU council posting a thread about "maybe we'll quickban MegaMence, what do you guys think?" instead of just quickbanning like at the beginning of XY with Blaziken, Mega Kanga, and Mega Gengar? Not a jab, but a genuine wonder.

PR reasons, in an attempt to lessen the backlash from mini-Verlisifys and anti-Smogon white knights.

Down the line, when the obvious "Mence shouldn't have been banned! Ice Shard exists!" shit comes along, this thread will be a reference point to direct those who didn't play the pre-ban meta. Just shows that the community was in favour of the ban, y'know?

That's how I figure it, anyway. May be wrong.​

 

[MilkyWay]

Question: why is the OU council posting a thread about "maybe we'll quickban MegaMence, what do you guys think?" instead of just quickbanning like at the beginning of XY with Blaziken, Mega Kanga, and Mega Gengar? Not a jab, but a genuine wonder.

Actually that's not entirely true, iirc correctly they had a poll and a thread for Mega Gengar, and believe it or not about half the people voted No Ban on the poll (But about 95% of the arguements in the thread were in favor of a ban).

Anyways, since this thread is supposed to be a thread to discuss our opinions on Mega Salamence, does anybody actually disagree with a quick ban that has a valid arguement? I think I've seen like 2 or 3 people actually disagree and none of them had good arguements (not that I blame them though cuz this thing is hilariously broken).

 

[Firebird101]

Question: why is the OU council posting a thread about "maybe we'll quickban MegaMence, what do you guys think?" instead of just quickbanning like at the beginning of XY with Blaziken, Mega Kanga, and Mega Gengar? Not a jab, but a genuine wonder.

Mega Gengar and Mega Kanga were also given a thread (dunno about Blaziken though)

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-ban-of-gengarite.3494085/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kangaskhanite-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3495351/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-ban-of-blaziken-and-deoxys-n.3492497/

Like it or not these things can't happen too suddenly cause not everyone are as big as pokenerds as us so please bear it with us for few more days. Heck, Mega Gengar caused a bit controversy because people didn't realize how potent it was until after playing with a well played Mega Gengar.

Also the ladder most of us have used to gain experience wasn't the official ladder so a lot of people haven't even played against Mega Salamence yet so this is just a pr issue, so again I just ask everyone to calm their tits for few more days as we will all be relieved of Mega Mence's presence soon enough.

 

[The Manifold Curiosity]

I am just going to add my voice to the massive choir of people who want it quick banned. There is nothing really new for me to add that has not been said before. I have seen too many matches where one player is simply better than the other and is about to win until the losing player brings out M Mence who has a set that the other guy just cannot handle.

Everyone has talked about the bulk, power, speed and versatility of M Mence. One thing that has not been said much is that because Mence is better than everything else it forces every team to use Mence as their Mega if they want to be truly competitive, which vastly limits creativity. M Mence has the ability to 6-0 teams with no support as long as it can get a chance to set up, something that is incredibly easy to do. Basically almost every physical attacker and weak special attacker than does not have a ice move counts as set up bait for M Mence. Once it gets one DD and Sub its almost certainty gg, if its two DD and a sub (which could happen when it can set up on -1 Outrage!) its definitely gg.

M Mence puts incredible pressure on the opposing team as they have to try and create scenarios where M Mence cannot easily switch in and set up AND they have to make sure their M Mence checks are kept healthy for as long as M Mence is a threat. That's a great difficulty to accomplish and requires them to be playing at a much higher skill level for them to have any hope of winning compared to the M Mence user. Therefore the odds are automatically stacked against you if you don't have M Mence on your team.

I think the only question remaining is if M Mence is the most broken thing to ever be allowed in OU, its definitely up there with Mega Mon, Mega Blaze and Mega Gengar. Quick ban this thing please so we can look at more interesting things, cough*ninja*cough.

 

[branflakes]

We're already familiar with the quick banning process. There is no controversy regarding Mega Salamence, especially among the staff. Every point having to do with Mega Salamence's versatility and power has been made in the first 3 pages. Everything since then has been circular discussion. There is nothing left to process, evaluate or discuss.

So what's the hold up?

 

[havokchomp123]

People just stop posting you are wasting your spare time that could be spent playing ORAS or bitching about how flygon didn't get a mega evolution or if greninja should be banned. This is like someone opening up a discussion about why sonic 2006 is one of the worst games of all time there's just no need we already know why!!

 

[heritage]

Down the line, when the obvious "Mence shouldn't have been banned! Ice Shard exists!" shit comes along​

Well then those people obviously haven't played against Salamence, cause the majority of Ice Shards don't even stop it lol

 

[Josh Morales]

Well then those people obviously haven't played against Salamence, cause the majority of Ice Shards don't even stop it lol

Not only that but Verlisify fanboy dipshits will always inevitably be around no matter what.

 

[MikeDawg]

You all need to understand that Smogon players aren't the only people that matter when dealing with Smogon policy. While it isn't an intention, Smogon decisions stretch beyond the plane of Showdown!, and they influence everything from the wifi ladder to simple one-on-one games with friends. While non-competitive communities aren't important in actually determining what to ban, the fact that Smogon is such a huge and prominent community means that PR is a necessary consideration in all major decisions. As such, how a policy is implemented is incredibly important and very precarious.

Facetious comments aside, Smogon is built upon the premise of democracy, and that needs to be upheld as much as possible in order to minimize Smogon-shaming. As such, having the council outright ban Mence, nonetheless on the first day of ORAS, is a terrible move, as it goes against that whole democratic image that Smogon tries to create.

So stop arguing with the mods, stop arguing with 56k, leave your opinion, participate in some constructive discussion, and be on your way, because the flaming is helping nobody.

 

[Smogmog]

Here's a nice quote from the ORAS Good Cores thread that sums up megamence pretty well.
"Of course, no matter what you do, Mega tablemence shreks this core, but it shreks everything so it doesnt matter."
And THAT'S the problem, lol. Doesn't matter how good your team is against the rest of the meta, if it can't stop megamence (which is nearly impossible), it's not gonna win enough.

 

[Alex Rose]

I'm actually scared of killing things without U-Turn or Volt Switch, because my opponent's Mega-Mence then gets a free turn to Sub/DDance.

 

[Supremedragoon]

Anyone remember when Salamence was OP? Someone at gamefreak obviously does. Why else would they make such a MONSTER!
Its dragon dance sets can sweep entire teams, and even unboosted its power is devastating. With full attack EV's, its attack is a total of 427! With a few dragon dances this abomination kills almost everything. Its speed? 389 with full EV's! He outspeeds so much its unreal. What effective counters are there to this guy? None really especially since you can't even outspeed him. Ice shard is a 2HKO in most pokemon against him!
Quick Ban him pl0x.
He isn't unbeatable but he beats almost everything which is a big no-no.

 

[havokchomp123]

Do you truly believe that Smogon is a democracy...
Lets be real Smogon is a fucking tyranny and we know it :^]

Besides, no matter how much importance our decision holds, we ARE a tyranny and we don't give a flying fuck about what every facebook crybaby and his mother have to say. We will do what makes sense, and what makes sense is to get mega salamence the fuck outta OU. We don't care about what you think, our best interests just happen to align with yours :]

You better be careful or else you will be beheaded by their gullitone. Jokes aside though, Mikedawg I don't think you were understanding my point. Even if you want to make the argument that smogon is a "democracy," i still feel that a discussion thread will only voice the same arguments over and over. Instead, why not have a voting pool or something like that, with some good reasons as to why megamence should be banned? That way every one can voice there opinion without having poor arguments from outsiders or people being assholes to 56K. Besides, we have had 15 pages of why mega mence should be banned, I was just saying that further conversation proves nothing.

 

[Temporelucis]

How do you guys are dealing with this mon'?
It seems that you either have to run a P2 on your team, a Rotom-W with stupid amount of Sp.Atk. investment + HP ice or a Mamoswine/Weavile with priority ice shard and sometimes even two of those checks combined... I've gone so far as running HP ice eviolite Analytic Magneton in order to NOT get swept by the DD set, which in my opinion is really stupid when it's only purpose on the team is to counter 1 variant of a broken Pokémon.
When people start running a base 122 scarf mon' you know something is wrong in the metagame.
Like... what are the benefits of running scarf on Greninja over LO? really???

• deal with mence

What about +2 or if it is behind a sub?
It's not only over centralizing for fact that you have to carry at least two checks in order to have a competent team, it's also powerful, fast, bulky, has a great ability pre AND post mega evolving with a stupidly good move-pool.
It could go special/physical/mixed/bulky with intimidate or moxie which gives Mence a lot of opportunities to set up on almost any member of the opponents team.

Just quickban that thing into oblivion ASAP （;≧皿≦）

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Food for Thought: Lets say Mega Mence was already banned. What reasons would you argue for its unbanning? I myself can't think of one. It can run any coverage, be Physical, special or mixed, break through almost all walls without even boosting, and has a good speed tier. There isn't anything the meta needs Mega Mence for. Its not needed to keep a playstyle viable or keep another threat in check. Just ban this thing already.