Hey everyone! Been awhile!
As you may have noticed, our schedule has gone a
liiiittle bit out the window. We've been running into issues with the sustainability of how we've been running things in this mod, and ringleader Hematite is taking some time off to work on mental health. We're still figuring out what our plan is going to be moving forward, but we are at the
very least going to finally wrap up this slate!
Of course, with the slate wrap-up comes the dreaded
submission review, which I have cobbled together from some notes Hematite left me, my own thoughts and some very helpful input from my fellow council members (Thank you guys again!!!). As usual, this includes a variety of general advice, required fixes and general vetoes; submissions will be included or excluded from the pre-voting submission roundup depending on whether or not they've been fixed.
And speaking of the submission roundup -- since this took so long to get up, we're giving people extra time to accommodate for the edits they're asked to make. Voting will open
sometime after Wednesday the 21st (World Clock) (Countdown), so get your edits in before then, please!
Until then,
new submissions are closed. Only revisions to already-posted submissions, please!
If your sub isn't mentioned here, that most likely means it's fine for voting! Its entirely possible I missed things but for the most part you're fine.
Anyways, without further ado...
... on to the Submission Review!
There were some trends I noticed while looking over the submissions that I found prevalent enough to mention up front. Even if I didn't mention your sub specifically in the main body of the post, if any of these notes apply to it that counts as a warning, and for strong coverage/Nasty Plot on Silvally it counts as a required change.
Blanket Vetos/Common Recommendations:
- Silvally:
- Strong physical coverage but ESPECIALLY Earthquake/Play Rough on Silvally. Ground as a coverage type pairs insanely well with several of Silvally's best types, and Fairy/Ground especially is a notoriously potent offensive typing. Allowing Silvally's pre-existing access to Fairy or Electric Multi-Attack and Swords Dance to coexist with it receiving Earthquake is a risk I'm not willing to take.
- As for Nasty Plot: Silvally has access to generally weaker physical coverage in combination with Swords Dance, but its coverage on the special side is actually quite decent, including solid BoltBeam access. This is also pretty risky and we are both very against it.
- Also Conversion/Conversion2! These moves are included in several subs due to the mons getting type-changing gimmicks but it's worth noting that these moves are actually hard-coded to fail when used by Silvally and it's kind of extremely silly to give it access to them.
- Finally: reliable recovery on Silvally is extremely inadvisable. Steel is already its best base form, and Steel-types with Recover are extremely sparse and always very competitively relevant.Setting aside Arceus-Steel, they can be counted on one hand: Kartana, Scizor, Solgaleo, Corviknight and Skarmory. Kartana doesn't even use it! Please think twice about giving this reliable recovery, and please think twice about voting for submissions that add reliable recovery.
- "Reliable recovery" obviously includes Recover, Roost, Slack Off Etc but also to a smaller degree Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis. These moves have greatly restricted PP and are therefore slightly less of a problem, but I would still advise against it.
- Electrode:
- Customs that encourage Electrode to sacrifice itself. This is a hell of a balancing tightrope to walk, since the effect has to be good enough to justify basically wasting your Mega slot. I'm gonna be honest here and say that if it were completely up to me I would blanket ban every single one of these, but I'm not sure I have the authority to do that. Instead I am just strongly discouraging it I guess.
- Golurk:
- Reliable recovery moves on Golurk. It's not veto-worthy in every sub that adds it, but I really hate giving it that option; Ground-types are really good with recovery in general, and I feel like this is a Pokemon for which having reliable recovery access would drastically impact the kind of sets it runs in normal gameplay, which is something I have been wanting to avoid going forward in this mod's design philosophy.
Specific submission notes:
ARandomPerson + Lord:
You noted in your post that giving it Recover is potentially questionable, and that you're open to replacing it with Pain Split. I would strongly prefer adding Pain Split over Recover if possible - it's both less extreme
and flavorfully fitting - but it's not a requirement here for balance purposes.
Double Iron Bash:
I would recommend renaming this Ability, mostly just because it feels
really out of place as an Ability name. Something simpler like "Haunting" would do just fine.
Wheeveelution:
Veto. I don't have any advice here I just can't allow this.
Veto. I don't have any advice here I just can't allow this.
Silvally needs to lose Nasty Plot, and aside from that is generally pretty pointless; Get rid of the -ate effect, so that Multi-Attack being custom-coded to change type doesn't mean absolutely nothing due to Return hitting way harder in every scenario, and this escapes the veto list.
ChoiceScarfed:
Veto. Why does it need a hindering ability this ridiculous? There is no point to run this over base.
Silvally is fine but it needs to tone down on its movepool additions. How about... none of those moves. Okay? Okay.
Electrode is not really
objectionable per se but there's going to be a running thread here in that personally we are of the opinion that Mega Evolutions that have a self sacrificing Ability are very bad game design. It's virtually impossible to balance the opportunity cost of basically skipping your Mega slot with an effect that isn't completely game-ending and dumb. If your description includes the words "not going to last very long, but it's a meme" then I would strongly encourage you to reconsider your design choices.
stinky potato:
Golurk's ability is way overcomplicated, please simplify it to "physical Berserk". And please reconsider Slack Off; if it
must get a recovery move I really don't think that one makes sense. Pain Split would be my recommendation.
Veto; there is no reason an Ability should involve such an arbitrary lookup table.
PokemonKingAlan:
Please remove Earthquake and Play Rough from the movepool additions.
Hematemesis:
This is really interesting conceptually, but it's really easy to see it getting really unhealthy when you combine it with a Pursuit ally. I'm... not really sure how to advise you here? Maybe ask Blue about it since he's the one who pointed out a concern.
NeonNitroGlycerin:
Veto. The ability is really overcomplicated, and your movepool additions are
really excessive.
N1ghtShade:
95/120/120 bulk on an Unaware Normal-type with Recover isss something I don't think we can allow. You can either drop Recover (which would be my preference) or nerf the bulk
considerably.
This is kind of absurd. Ghost and Ground are both extremely good attacking types; yes, they both
do have immunities, but their resists are generally mutually exclusive and few and far between. This in combination with the Attack and Speed buffs would make it basically impossible to handle late in a game. Please lower the Attack and Speed buffs to 1.5x instead of 2 at the very least, and preferably pick either Attack
or Speed to boost?
For clarity's sake, this will be coded like the rage moves like Outrage, where you are prevented from clicking anything else or switching for the duration. Otherwise this is not even remotely balanced.
StarFalcon555:
Veto. Discerning Ghost + Damp for activation is without precedent, the name is
not good, and getting it to that precise of an HP range is roll-reliant and not in a player's control.
Would be completely insane if Earthquake didn't exist. I still don't like it. There's visible restraint here, Hematite was leaning towards "allow and we can always nerf it later".
Gekokeso:
I would request that this drops Recover. We can add it as a buff later if it needs one. Not necessary/not a veto if you don't, but we would rather
try it without recovery first and see if it works, because it very well could function just fine without it.
The Main Mon:
The effect is very unreliable, and I would advise to edit it to something along the lines of "resist their strongest move, Forewarn-style".
Veto. I would really encourage you to reread the stat rules in the first post of the thread; this degree of min-maxing is just straight-up not allowed. Also, specifically bypassing two completely unrelated types of effects that would mitigate the damage is completely unprecedented as far as ability effects go.
harmony96369:
I... this sub is very borderline as far as power level goes, and I'm
nervous about allowing it. I will definitely veto it if you don't remove Nasty Plot, though.
Sereg:
Please drop Close Combat. Why. Also, 10% is also a uselessly small modifier; either drop that effect or buff it slightly. I would recommend dropping the effect personally.
This is basically identical to the other Protean submission(s), minus the movepool additions; I would recommend getting in touch with those people and offering input instead.
DarkFairy:
This is... a
really weird sub mechanically. There are a couple main things to note:
- Pokemon that are typeless do not get STAB on typeless moves. This is verifiable on cart, and we are not changing it.
- I also think it would be really inconsistent in some really awkward ways. Making the order of a Pokemon's types into a relevant mechanic is really inadvisable, and there are some notable Pokemon that it would just lose to entirely because of the way their types are ordered, with no real rhyme or reason to what it loses to because of this.
I would recommend reconsidering this effect.
Golurk is a fun concept, but unfortunately it definitely has to be vetoed. Hematite's words here:
- "on Mega Evolution" counts as "on switch" in almost every case and I sure as heck don't see what about this warrants an exception (it's not like Imposter where it literally cannot be allowed to happen any other time or things break)
- the Gems do not exist and I really don't like the idea of a Mega having a set of items all to itself, new or not
- the last time we made a Mega that messed with held items in a way that made substantially less optical sense when one considered using it in-game and how one's team would be left after exploiting it, it became controversial and sincerely unpleasant to deal with; I feel like we have to consider using this against a wild Pokémon (where item changes persist after battle) and what might happen as a result, which also implies... legalizing Gems?
- llless serious of an issue, but-- kind of like the LGPE moves, 16 of the 18 Gems have been mechanically altered since their last appearance and one has never existed, and I don't like the confusion that comes with deciding how they should work (even if there's admittedly kind of an easy answer here)
greyllama8:
Virtually the same as someone else's submission and will not be included for this reason.
Please tone down the movepool additions.
Gravity Monkey:
Unfortunately two of these are basically the same as previous subs; would invite collaboration with
ChoiceScarfed on
Silvally and
zxgzxg on
Golurk.
Paulluxx:
As noted above, I would
really prefer if you didn't give it Recover or other comparably reliable recovery. I think this is fine otherwise though? Maybe Pain Split...?
This is a veto. Once again I really dislike encouraging it to self-destruct, plus chip damage as a whole has proven to be a huge problem in M4A's metagame. The damage numbers are also pretty unintuitive.
lydian:
No issue mechanically but Hematite was not sure if he is allowed to input special characters like that in ability names, like functionally I don't think we can name it that in the code without something breaking :'D so if possible an alternative ability name?
Erphuan the Fluffy:
I would urge you to reconsider effects that encourage Electrode to sacrifice itself for reasons listed above.
b-torterra:
Silvally is... hhhhhooh.
- I know people really really like move-linking mechanics as a concept but I really think it is a completely unworkable premise. Anything that requires your moves to be ordered in a specific way in order for it to be functional in the slightest is completely past the line for me. The only canon move that reads something based on a moveslot is Conversion, which just reads your first moveslot. There really isn't a way to do it cleanly past that.
- There's an additional and more important problem, though; The hover boxes on PS display your moves to your opponent, but they are displayed in the order that you used them, not in the order they're listed in your set. If you Mega Evolve immediately it'll give some indication of the order, but...
- If move linking as a theoretical mechanic is allowed at all, it needs to be simplified to "only the first two moves of your moveset" with the potential additional stipulation of "announces on entry what moves you have linked". This is going to be a rule going forwards. Although if I had it my way, people would just stop trying to make this a mechanic. Please stop trying to make this a mechanic? I am begging
Veto. It's too specific to ever function. Like that ability will literally never proc. There is no point in making such a complicated custom that will just never happen.
bekama:
This is just better Technician. If "we don't do Better Versions Of Abilities" isn't enough of a reason to change it, this also hilariously makes Dynamic Punch into 200 BP. Please god just make this Technician. Veto if not.
NANI?!:
As previously mentioned, there are some issues with having something function differently based on what order its moves are in. I kind of seriously draw the line there. It's like
fine I guess but ugh. It can also get really unintuitive really fast when you have multiple moves of the same type (ie. SD + Multi-Attack, for instance).
Exploziff:
I would request that this be changed to copying your last Pokemon's typing, rather than the typing of its first move. The other player can basically never tell what types are even
available to Silvally here, and has absolutely no way of knowing what order your Pokemon's moves are in.
Regic Boat:
Veto.
Golurk has way too much speed than is even
remotely reasonable for a Pokemon that gets 100% acc Dynamic Punch and STAB on Poltergeist. Veto.
BlueRay:
I mostly wanted to suggest taking the whole type combination of the Pokemon instead (going one team slot at a time rather than going one type at a time). It kinda feels like a way more complicated and unintuitive Luster Swap, but the specific function does make sense for Multi-Attack purposes.
Poké Legend:
Veto. This is... a really unintuitive effect, sorry.
jazzmat:
Teeeeentative veto. This Electrode is pretty worrying, actually. It's a really cool concept and I feel like it would open up interesting teambuilding, but... Electrify is banned in several formats for a reason, and that's not really a beehive I feel like poking in this mod... :|
Vipotis:
This ability is so all over the place; I'm intrigued mechanically but am leaning against having that many effects just because 'levitates after successfully using an electric move' is so clean. Then just don't have the levitation wear off until it switches out? Either go with just levitation, or just the SpA boost. Trying to give it benefits for both Charge
and Magnet Rise is just getting in the way here.
This ability should just lower stats; the second bit really doesn't scan. Even streamlined to just that effect, it could potentially be
really unhealthy in VGC; not enough to veto, but it struck Hematite as wildly irresponsible to not at least discourage it.
TheUltraFinder:
You did specifically say this was a joke sub so I hope you are okay with this not being included for voting; there are several other Galvanize Electrode already :'D
Very similar to
lydian's; I would encourage you to offer them feedback or collaborate on one rather than posting them separately.
Seranode:
Veto. MfA as a metagame has been in a unique position to realize just how powerful chip damage can be, and this being permanent and unclearable is just...
way beyond reasonable.
The Kaividian:
This is just DrPumpkinz' sub but worse. You need a real good reason to give something multiple Megas and this does not cut it. Veto.
HydreigonTheChild:
This is the third "conversion2 color change" here, and there really isn't a lot to differentiate it from the others... I would recommend seeking them out and offering advice instead. (Also, Conversion + Conversion2 aren't legal move additions as noted at the top of the post.)
K4N73R:
This is basically the same as a previous submission, and as such will not be included in voting.
Moretto:
This isn't broken or anything, but it does seem... kind of pointless? You can just give it Accelerock if you want it to have Rock-type priority... Overwriting the typing of its punching moves
specifically gets rid of a lot of really valuable coverage moves, which I think would hurt it more than help it.
woworiginal:
Does the second hit proc
regardless of whether the first hit lands? Either way would be fine but I wanted to clarify.
Violettes:
Golurk has a cool
concept, and the execution is cool in theory, but in practice it probably would not work very well. I really think you should consider saving this concept for a different mon.
ArhamA:
Veto unless you reconsider this Ability. Unresisted STAB Extreme Speed and natural access to SD as well as being able to hit any target but Ghost for a lot of damage with Multi Attack is too much.
Blastfury0614:
I will not be including this. There are at least four other Galvanize Electrode already.
The way this ability functions is really nonspecific, and it makes me pretty nervous. It strikes me as fairly random in what type it will decide on, and the idea of that RNG alone deciding matches just doesn't sit right with me; could you reconsider the effect? I'd also ask that you lower its Speed, as well as nix Play Rough at the very least. Maybe go with Aqua Tail instead of Liquidation? It
does have a fish tail.
Pexftw:
There are several CamoMons Silvally already, so I most likely will not be including this in voting. As noted above, please avoid making move order a relevant mechanic. Also drop Play Rough, Iron Head, Triple Axel, Roost, Razor Leaf (this doesn't make any sense, why), and perhaps switch Waterfall for Aqua Tail if you really want Water coverage for it (It can't Surf, so why should it be able to Waterfall?).
Mmmmm please either lower its Attack or remove its Normal typing.
Please drop Shore Up at least; this will be vetoed if you don't. Scald and Flip Turn don't really make a whole lot of sense either; Flip Turn is generally reserved for things with tail fins.
VoolPool:
We have Protean Silvally already. I will not be including this in voting.
This... isn't really Power Construct, this is Shields Down. Shields Down would be a pretty fitting Ability for Golurk though; I'd recommend just using that instead.
Aside from that though, the Complete/Core forme is very minmaxed; I'd request that you tone it down a little, and have both formes get stat changes relative to the base forme rather than to each other. Maybe 89/124/130 (+50)/55/130 (+50)/55 for Shielded, and 89/154 (+30)/65 (-15)/85 (+30)/65 (-15)/125 (+70) for base.
sandsong:
I would require that you don't add Brave Bird and Roost here. Roost I explained a bit more above. For both moves, I understand the temptation to add fitting moves for your mechanical concept, but remember that non-mega Silvally also gets access to any moves you add. Silvally is a lot of things but it is definitely not a bird.
Honestly, the Flying-type is more of a hindrance than a help here, since that adds a stealth rock weakness to a mon that can't hold boots.
This is weirdly similar to another submission, and I'll reiterate my notes on that here: Overwriting the typing of its punching moves
specifically gets rid of a lot of really valuable coverage moves, which I think would hurt it more than help it. It's not veto-worthy or anything, just inadvisable in my opinion.
Okay, that should be about it from me today! Remember, if you want to discuss improving your submissions,
our Discord server has a dedicated channel for that and is a great place to start.
Voting will open sometime after Wednesday the 21st (World Clock) (Countdown), so get your edits in before then, please!
And remember that new submissions are now closed; revisions to existing submissions only, please!