Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[snaildelagate]

I'm bored and this thread has been on the topic of Baton Pass for so long so I'm going start change the topic to talk about the rise of Bulky Grasses in the metagame.

The rise of Bulky Grass types can be attributed firstly to the prominence of the Tapu Koko Ash Greninja Volt-Turn Core which is able to apply pressure to nearly every type in the metagame besides grass types and efficently racks up SR damage and wears down opposing teams for various sweepers. This is why Brave Bird has seen a large amount of usage recently. Another reason for the rise is people realizing that over-reliance on Tapu Fini and other bulky waters leads to these pokemon getting worn down and eliminated easily,

Bulky Grass types allows Tapu Fini to focus on checking strong dark type attacks and maintain its health later into a match. The four prominent Bulky Grass types in the tier: Mega-Venusaur, Amoonguss, Tangrowth and Ferrothorn (and to a much lesser extent Tapu Bulu) (I'm not gonna talk about Ferrothorn since it was already prominent before this meta shift) are fairly adaptable to different team architechtures.

Venu provides greater offense and a nice switch-in to powerful fairy type attacks and its relatively few weakness leave it capable of winning a match in the lategame. Yet it comes at the cost of only having recovery in the form of Synthesis.

Amoonguss provides the ever helpful spore which can be useful for eliminating types but has surprising been the worst hit of the bulky grass by the rise of bulky grass since Amoonguss has trouble throwing out spore indescriminately and cannot threaten out Venusaur or Tangrowth (unless it carries sludge bomb).

AV Tangrowth provides a lot of utility (in the form of Knock Off) and counters strong ground types (such as Sub+Coil Zygarde) but lacks the offensive presence of Venu or the Utility of Amoonguss.

A big ripple effect of the rise of Bulky Grasses is an increase in SuperSonic SkyStrike Z-Move users such as DD-Gyarados and Landorous-T (Though SSSS Lando was already pretty popular before this trend.). In response most teams carrying bulky grasses now oftentimes carry a flying type resist that can scout these sets such as Rotom-W and Zapdos. Along with this is an increase in Zard usage since besides Amoonguss (if it hasn't spored anything else), Tangrowth and to a lesser extent Venusaur are set-up fodder for DD-Zard and an easy switch-in for Zard-Y.

 

[pika pal]

How is Magearna doing in this meta? I remember that thing making a big splash when it debuted given its well distributed stats and typing, but I haven't heard much of anything about it since then. What particular trend changes, if any, really mellowed out its hype?

 

[TURBODERP]

How is Magearna doing in this meta? I remember that thing making a big splash when it debuted given its well distributed stats and typing, but I haven't heard much of anything about it since then. What particular trend changes, if any, really mellowed out its hype?

This is anecdotal/going off the viability rankings somewhat, but I feel Magearna is pretty well positioned in this meta. The rise of Phermosa is decent for it, since AV Magearna takes on Scarf/QD variants pretty well (even with All-Out-Pummeling), and the rise in bulky grasses/Z-Fly users like Gyarados is alright too (although Magearna obviously doesn't like to take Earthquakes from Landorus or +1 Salamence, it can do so from the latter from full in a pinch).

 

[「Zeal」]

This is anecdotal/going off the viability rankings somewhat, but I feel Magearna is pretty well positioned in this meta. The rise of Phermosa is decent for it, since AV Magearna takes on Scarf/QD variants pretty well (even with All-Out-Pummeling), and the rise in bulky grasses/Z-Fly users like Gyarados is alright too (although Magearna obviously doesn't like to take Earthquakes from Landorus or +1 Salamence, it can do so from the latter from full in a pinch).

I agree. Though, for the record, Magearna doesn't appreciate coming in on high jump kicks from pheromosa, and getting worn down before it can switch in on things like tapu lele. If the opponent has both, you're particularly in trouble. Phero lele have insane wallbreaking synergy, and truly, I feel one or the other needs to go. Yes, I'm aware of what a controversial topic this is, but I genuinely feel that both pokemon are simply overcentralizing, and frankly unhealthy for the meta. Now, before I get thrown in the category of "He's one of those 'BAN PHEROMOSA' idiots", I want to make it clear that the idea of removing pheromosa from the meta should not be overlooked or downplayed as simple whining over something that can be so easily countered. Can it be easily countered? Yes, absolutely! But only by the same few pokemon. Toxapex is really the only true counter, and given that pex does not compliment every team, pheromosa creates quite an unhealthy imbalance in the meta, and makes teambuilding more hectic and claustrophobic. Lele as well assumes a quite domineering role in this metagame, having only a few more switch ins than pheromosa. Lele can be stopped by things along the likes of alolan muk, magearna, metagross, and outplayed by dark type pokemon and assault vest tangrowth. With so few answers to these pokemon, I feel the suspect and potential removal of one or either is entirely justified. I would like to hear thoughts from people against their removal.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

I agree. Though, for the record, Magearna doesn't appreciate coming in on high jump kicks from pheromosa, and getting worn down before it can switch in on things like tapu lele. If the opponent has both, you're particularly in trouble. Phero lele have insane wallbreaking synergy, and truly, I feel one or the other needs to go. Yes, I'm aware of what a controversial topic this is, but I genuinely feel that both pokemon are simply overcentralizing, and frankly unhealthy for the meta. Now, before I get thrown in the category of "He's one of those 'BAN PHEROMOSA' idiots", I want to make it clear that the idea of removing pheromosa from the meta should not be overlooked or downplayed as simple whining over something that can be so easily countered. Can it be easily countered? Yes, absolutely! But only by the same few pokemon. Toxapex is really the only true counter, and given that pex does not compliment every team, pheromosa creates quite an unhealthy imbalance in the meta, and makes teambuilding more hectic and claustrophobic. Lele as well assumes a quite domineering role in this metagame, having only a few more switch ins than pheromosa. Lele can be stopped by things along the likes of alolan muk, magearna, metagross, and outplayed by dark type pokemon and assault vest tangrowth. With so few answers to these pokemon, I feel the suspect and potential removal of one or either is entirely justified. I would like to hear thoughts from people against their removal.

You're looking at only one side of the story; namely, which Pokemon can switch into Pheromosa and Tapu Lele. As for the former, you have conveniently forgotten several nice options beyond Toxapex, like Alolan Marowak and Mantine. Gyarados uses it as setup fodder, and bulky Volcarona can as well. And as for the latter, you've already mentioned Mega Metagross, as though being checked by a top 3 mon in the tier isn't significant in and of itself. Yet you've left off other Steel-types such as Celesteela and Heatran, both of which are quite good. In fact if Dugtrio does end up banned I expect the latter to rise in usage.

But really, the main problem with Pheromosa is that if it doesn't kill something, it dies in return. Period. Realistically unless you have balls of steel you'll only be bringing it in on the revenge, and there are plenty of Pokemon that can live one hit and kill it in return. Tapu Fini, Magearna, Celesteela, you know, the usual answers. Not to mention potential Choice Scarf users make Pheromosa paranoid. Pheromosa offers literally zero defensive utility, which can't be overlooked in such a ridiculously offensive tier. There isn't a whole lot that can switch into it, but what is it switching into itself?
Tapu Lele has sort of fallen off. The Choice Scarf set is still good, but when you think of common setup sweepers like Volcarona and Salamence, sometimes you really wish you had the likes of a Nihilego to revenge kill them. In addition many of the best mons in the meta force Lele to rely on prediction. If you didn't click Shadow Ball as your opponent switched to his Mega Metagross, then you're going to have to switch out, and given the scarcity of Metagross checks your opponent can easily predict your next move. And without a Choice Scarf, 95 Speed is supremely underwhelming. The All-Out Attacking and Choice Specs sets are quite fun and extremely good, but there are a lot of offensive checks to them due to the speed. Tapu Lele doesn't have the bulk to live hits from most of the best Pokemon in the tier (including all three current S-ranks), and so it can be exploited.

 

[Photofluid]

I am not sure where else should I post it so I will just put it here.

Threat saturation is too much a problem right now it needs to be addressed

It is a common complain that it is now pretty much impossible to account for everything in the meta, unless you abandon any win con for your team to play hard stall and be totally reactive. This makes the game matchup dependent and less skillful.

One less obvious "evidence" would be the awkward meta near the end of ORAS when Clefable was totally dominating (Let's not fool ourselves, that is totally abnormal), while the causal relationship is distant, I attribute it to the fact that Clefable was able to check, albeit shakily, the majority of threats in OU, and having her in your team to stop all the random stuffs being thrown to you was why she was strong. (Btw, Greninja kinda got banned because it gets pass Clefable after gaining Gunk Shot)

Lastly, in the suspect of Dugtrio right now, a strong theory on the rise of Dugtrio again ties it to threat saturation.

Here is my proposal.

Team preview now reveals more information (moves, items, or even stats)

Similar things has actually been done before. Team preview was not a thing at the beginning of pokemon. Yet, as the pool of pokemon expands, it simply became too much to handle everything all at once.

I don't consider it the greatest of solutions either. However, putting an end to all the lures, would be IMO, a good way to tune down the threat level of the meta without having to ban things like crazy. Many high tier pokemons could run multiple sets, and that you need to be wary of all the sets it could running demands far more niche checks and counters.

Otherwise, we probably have to resort to even more radical solutions like increased team size and reserved teams etc. That I am proposing this solution in particular is because it changes the least about the game.

I am curious how you guys think of it.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Anyone who runs hard stall and plays stall vs stall understands the problem with fighting ditto, it just drills through Your PP unless You can regen stall but that's just a stalemate in their favor seeing how it lets them get free burns.

I think dugtrio will be banned and I think I want to replace my dugtrio/ditto with torpex and lando but if people use ditto idk what I want to do when they copy them, mega sableye or Zapdos. When he has a scarf and knocking it off can make it a harder match-up for sableye

^^^^^^^^

I think dugtrio being a problem is more of a statement of hazards game play being needed and being to hard to keep up, other than exadrill there aren't many good early game rock setters/spinners and dugtrio bodies it and the power creep overall keeps other setters out besides like Chansey having a free switch in and vomiting free rocks

 

[CrimsonArenz]

Sorry for my bad english, not my first language.

Just wanted to talk of how good is Supersonic Skystrike Gyarados right now:

Gyarados @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 88 HP / 220 Atk / 24 Def / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Bounce
- Waterfall
- Taunt

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-531186963
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-531898019
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-531956837

It can set up in a lot of relevant mons: Defensive Lando (most of them carry HP Ice instead of Stone Edge/Toxic nowadays), QD Volcarona (needs to be at +2 to try with 25% chance to OHKO Gyara with Inferno Overdrive) Pheromosa, Greninja, Non-Scald Tapu Fini. Taunt helps a lot vs fat mons that want to cripple or stop the sweep (Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Chansey). Since I don't usually carry another 'mon that can Mega Evolve, most of my opponents asume I'm using standard DD Mega-Gyarados, and thus they play different vs SS Gyarados, creating some interesting mindgames.
Intimidate is also an excellent option, but I personally prefer Moxie since Gyara can snowball out of control and take out at least 2 mons, and sometimes sweep. Its typing resists most relevant priority moves and being bulky gives it a lot of setup opportunities. Try it out, it's a lot of fun :]

Some calcs:
+1 220 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 280-330 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
220 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 200-236 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 220 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 181-214 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 220 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 237-279 (84.3 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Leo]

I am not sure where else should I post it so I will just put it here.

Threat saturation is too much a problem right now it needs to be addressed

It is a common complain that it is now pretty much impossible to account for everything in the meta, unless you abandon any win con for your team to play hard stall and be totally reactive. This makes the game matchup dependent and less skillful.

One less obvious "evidence" would be the awkward meta near the end of ORAS when Clefable was totally dominating (Let's not fool ourselves, that is totally abnormal), while the causal relationship is distant, I attribute it to the fact that Clefable was able to check, albeit shakily, the majority of threats in OU, and having her in your team to stop all the random stuffs being thrown to you was why she was strong. (Btw, Greninja kinda got banned because it gets pass Clefable after gaining Gunk Shot)

Lastly, in the suspect of Dugtrio right now, a strong theory on the rise of Dugtrio again ties it to threat saturation.

Here is my proposal.

Team preview now reveals more information (moves, items, or even stats)

Similar things has actually been done before. Team preview was not a thing at the beginning of pokemon. Yet, as the pool of pokemon expands, it simply became too much to handle everything all at once.

I don't consider it the greatest of solutions either. However, putting an end to all the lures, would be IMO, a good way to tune down the threat level of the meta without having to ban things like crazy. Many high tier pokemons could run multiple sets, and that you need to be wary of all the sets it could running demands far more niche checks and counters.

Otherwise, we probably have to resort to even more radical solutions like increased team size and reserved teams etc. That I am proposing this solution in particular is because it changes the least about the game.

I am curious how you guys think of it.

Ok let me stop you right there. Team preview showing your opponents sets doesn't fix any problem at all (?. I don't even get how "having too many threats in the meta" is a problem, do you expect to build a team of 6 mons with a straight counter to every signle threat in the meta? Because this is just impossible and that's how the game works, this isn't a problem by any means. Every team has weaknesses, you can't cover everything with just 6 mons and I don't get how "getting rid of lures" by showing you your opp's team "fixes" this. Matchup advantage/disadvantage is a thing because of this and this isn't unhealthy, this is why people in SPL or other tournaments try to identify common weaknesses on their opponent's teams, it's part of the game. Yeah, Clefable was a blanket check to a lot of threats in ORAS, what is wrong with this? Do you think it's "abnormal" because of its low base stats, or what do you mean? If you look at Clefable as a mon with low base stats that used to be RU of course you would be surprised of its dominance in ORAS, but it was the combination of its typing+ability+movepool what made it as good as it was, and this doesn't prove that you needed to blanket check the entire meta to avoid losing. This current meta has brought a lot of new threats to the table but that doesn't mean that you can't have a gameplan for all of them. Yoy may not have a hard counter to Charizard-Y but you have rkillers and ways around it, you can't build a team and expect to just click buttons during a battle and win, bring your counter everytime your opp brings his threat and not lose that way. You need to play well around threats you're weak to, and if you can't do this of course matchup will be an issue. I think your solution is just ridiculous and realistically, I don't see that ever happening

 

[Shouting]

I think Photofluid has a good (interesting) point. I think treat saturation is DEFINITELY happening, whether you like it or not. Much of this has to deal with Z-Moves. Somgon is responding by banning a lot more things, which may or may not be the best thing for the metagame. Especially in UU, Z-Moves are brought up a lot when justifying a ban for something (Thund-T and Gigavolt, Azu with Z-BellyDrum, etc.) because there really is no way to prepare for anything.

Not being able to prepare for anything is not necessarily bad, but the number that you can prepare for in this gen has decreased and has been since the transition from bw-xy imo.

If you need evidence of this, look no further than the current BL list: it's currently 16 pokemon, and ORAS' BL is 17. That is one less pokemon and Sun and Moon UU just started a couple months ago.

Also, there were less BL pokemon in BW than DP, so it really isn't a matter of just "more pokemon = more threats."

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Uu last gen really didn't have balance like in ou all the HO that just barely couldn't make the cut in ou went to uu and they also were lucky to get a lot of great defensive mons like blissEly.

So it was kind of stall/HO extreme this gen we really didn't drop any good defensive moves cause we only really got Toxapex and instead we rained insane wallbreakers that would easily and did easily smash the faces in of uu stall. Like azumaril is a monster and the fact it isn't really viable in ou like before speaks loudly about how out of control strong a lot of the drops were

Also they'll likly retest a lot of the quick bans once things calm down some but they did get a lot of once good spinners from ou

 

[Tressed]

If you need evidence of this, look no further than the current BL list: it's currently 16 pokemon, and ORAS' BL is 17. That is one less pokemon and Sun and Moon UU just started a couple months ago.

UU does tiering in a very different way than other tiers, in that they initially ban potentially problematic mons and hold suspect tests to determine if they should be reintroduced. Given that they've just started their first suspect now, this means nothing.

 

[Martin]

I am not sure where else should I post it so I will just put it here.

Threat saturation is too much a problem right now it needs to be addressed

It is a common complain that it is now pretty much impossible to account for everything in the meta, unless you abandon any win con for your team to play hard stall and be totally reactive. This makes the game matchup dependent and less skillful.

One less obvious "evidence" would be the awkward meta near the end of ORAS when Clefable was totally dominating (Let's not fool ourselves, that is totally abnormal), while the causal relationship is distant, I attribute it to the fact that Clefable was able to check, albeit shakily, the majority of threats in OU, and having her in your team to stop all the random stuffs being thrown to you was why she was strong. (Btw, Greninja kinda got banned because it gets pass Clefable after gaining Gunk Shot)

Lastly, in the suspect of Dugtrio right now, a strong theory on the rise of Dugtrio again ties it to threat saturation.

Here is my proposal.

Team preview now reveals more information (moves, items, or even stats)

Similar things has actually been done before. Team preview was not a thing at the beginning of pokemon. Yet, as the pool of pokemon expands, it simply became too much to handle everything all at once.

I don't consider it the greatest of solutions either. However, putting an end to all the lures, would be IMO, a good way to tune down the threat level of the meta without having to ban things like crazy. Many high tier pokemons could run multiple sets, and that you need to be wary of all the sets it could running demands far more niche checks and counters.

Otherwise, we probably have to resort to even more radical solutions like increased team size and reserved teams etc. That I am proposing this solution in particular is because it changes the least about the game.

I am curious how you guys think of it.

Smogon aren't going to change the team preview mechanics 'cause that involves changing actual game mechanics, which is just utterly idiotic--not to mention that your reasoning is utterly awful.

First and foremost, you can't seriously be comparing Game Freak changing mechanics between generation to Smogon literally changing the game mechanics for the sake of convenience. Like, not only does the comparison make no sense on so many levels, but part of the whole deal with Smogon rules is that they have to be possible to recreate on cart. Changing team preview mechanics to give more information to the player is not possible on cart, therefore it will never happen.

Secondly, this not only solves nothing, but it only serves to reduce the strategic element of the game. If you know everything right from the get go, scouting (one of the most important parts of gameplay and one of the key strategic pivot points) ceases to exist. In addition, it reduces teambuilding flexibility on the basis that lures function specifically because they patch up these weaknesses. Like, seriously the concept of preparing perfectly for everything is unfeasible but lures sure as hell make this a lot easier.

I think Photofluid has a good (interesting) point. I think treat saturation is DEFINITELY happening, whether you like it or not. Much of this has to deal with Z-Moves. Somgon is responding by banning a lot more things, which may or may not be the best thing for the metagame. Especially in UU, Z-Moves are brought up a lot when justifying a ban for something (Thund-T and Gigavolt, Azu with Z-BellyDrum, etc.) because there really is no way to prepare for anything.

Not being able to prepare for anything is not necessarily bad, but the number that you can prepare for in this gen has decreased and has been since the transition from bw-xy imo.

If you need evidence of this, look no further than the current BL list: it's currently 16 pokemon, and ORAS' BL is 17. That is one less pokemon and Sun and Moon UU just started a couple months ago.

Also, there were less BL pokemon in BW than DP, so it really isn't a matter of just "more pokemon = more threats."

The thing with BL being so big atm is because UU utilises a very different policy to OU which was first employed by Kokoloko in XY: it quickbans a lot of the biggest threats within the beta stage and then works through and re-tests them in a metagame which is significantly more balanced. As such, it is natural that the BL list is going to be fucking massive at this stage.

 

[Photofluid]

Anyone who runs hard stall and plays stall vs stall understands the problem with fighting ditto, it just drills through Your PP unless You can regen stall but that's just a stalemate in their favor seeing how it lets them get free burns.

I think dugtrio will be banned and I think I want to replace my dugtrio/ditto with torpex and lando but if people use ditto idk what I want to do when they copy them, mega sableye or Zapdos. When he has a scarf and knocking it off can make it a harder match-up for sableye

^^^^^^^^

I think dugtrio being a problem is more of a statement of hazards game play being needed and being to hard to keep up, other than exadrill there aren't many good early game rock setters/spinners and dugtrio bodies it and the power creep overall keeps other setters out besides like Chansey having a free switch in and vomiting free rocks

Hazard is THE most broken and centralizing force of the game since SR is introduced to the game though

Also, sash Dugtrio is actually a lot less common right now so I don't think Hazard is explaining everything.

 

[Photofluid]

Smogon aren't going to change the team preview mechanics 'cause that involves changing actual game mechanics, which is just utterly idiotic--not to mention that your reasoning is utterly awful.

First and foremost, you can't seriously be comparing Game Freak changing mechanics between generation to Smogon literally changing the game mechanics for the sake of convenience. Like, not only does the comparison make no sense on so many levels, but part of the whole deal with Smogon rules is that they have to be possible to recreate on cart. Changing team preview mechanics to give more information to the player is not possible on cart, therefore it will never happen.

Secondly, this not only solves nothing, but it only serves to reduce the strategic element of the game. If you know everything right from the get go, scouting (one of the most important parts of gameplay and one of the key strategic pivot points) ceases to exist. In addition, it reduces teambuilding flexibility on the basis that lures function specifically because they patch up these weaknesses. Like, seriously the concept of preparing perfectly for everything is unfeasible but lures sure as hell make this a lot easier.

The thing with BL being so big atm is because UU utilises a very different policy to OU which was first employed by Kokoloko in XY: it quickbans a lot of the biggest threats within the beta stage and then works through and re-tests them in a metagame which is significantly more balanced. As such, it is natural that the BL list is going to be fucking massive at this stage.

Previewing the entire team is actually perfectly replicable on cartiage play, you can compare it to Hearthstone which does not have a tournament realm either, yet you basically know the entire decklist of your opponent when you get into the later stage of the big tournaments as most tournaments don't all you to change decklist during it. Ofc, threat saturation is not nearly as big a problem in that game so people don't demand decklist to be reviewed. It is still weird but not more than sleep clause.

Also, lures definitely hurts people that prepares against it than people who prepares it. Lure sets allow one to check additional threats shakily but it greatly weakens the checks one can possibly use. It affects some pokemon more than the others ofc (if team preview covers moves and items, Genesect would definitely not be banned), but it nonetheless affects everyone because most top tier pokemon has lure sets.

And regarding making the game less skillful. I mean team preview itself also makes the game less skillful by taking away the skill to read the unrevealed members of your opponent yet we eventually decided that it creates more harm than help.

But my primary point is if the council think threat saturation needs to be addressed because it is quite clearly a problem right now.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Wtf???

Most broken things have been banned long ago, ubers, multiple sleeping, moody, swagplay last gen, KO moves, double team and extreme stall trapping.

Do You realize how broken sleep is when You can mindlessly spam spore on sashed smergel and set up? Like spore/strength sap(hits grass types)/ recycle/ 1 move You need.

Hazards are no longer broken in my eyes given lack of as many viable setters and abilities of magic guard and regeneration, honestly people would stab me in the face a thousand times if I knew all their moves banned hazards and ran shednija. That's literally more shallow than 2nd Gen of pokemon.

A lure is a bait and it can be read, scouted or be easily played around, like this is some seriously cringe stuff in that baiting shouldn't be viable

Team preview made the game less dumb by letting both players realize their options and if they can win. I really don't miss fake out/taunt/u turn leads

 

[Martin]

Previewing the entire team is actually perfectly replicable on cartiage play, you can compare it to Hearthstone which does not have a tournament realm either, yet you basically know the entire decklist of your opponent when you get into the later stage of the big tournaments as most tournaments don't all you to change decklist during it. Ofc, threat saturation is not nearly as big a problem in that game so people don't demand decklist to be reviewed. It is still weird but not more than sleep clause.

Also, lures definitely hurts people that prepares against it than people who prepares it. Lure sets allow one to check additional threats shakily but it greatly weakens the checks one can possibly use. It affects some pokemon more than the others ofc (if team preview covers moves and items, Genesect would definitely not be banned), but it nonetheless affects everyone because most top tier pokemon has lure sets.

And regarding making the game less skillful. I mean team preview itself also makes the game less skillful by taking away the skill to read the unrevealed members of your opponent yet we eventually decided that it creates more harm than help.

But my primary point is if the council think threat saturation needs to be addressed because it is quite clearly a problem right now.

You're completely missing the point lol

No, it's not perfectly replicable on cartridge play. Can you see your opponents moves on team preview? NO. Not to mention that not every game is "the later stage of a big tournament" and quite frankly I can't believe that this is your actual justification because of how immensely stupid it is. It is also way more weird/dumb than sleep clause on the basis that in-game it is implemented by having the rule-breaker forfeit the game--i.e. it can still be utilised on cartridge within reasonable capacity.

"Lure sets allow one to check additional threats shakily but it greatly weakens the checks one can possibly use." Well, yeah thanks for enlightening me on the purpose of lures I would have never worked that out. Also that is literally the entire reason that they are competitive: it expands the options available to the user when building, allows non-standard sets to realistically function, and adds the element of the scouting to the game, and is healthy due to increasing the skill level within the teambuilder phase.

Team preview was implemented by Game Freak: not Smogon. Please don't be dumb and think that the two are remotely comparable, as one is an official mechanic from the people who made the game whereas the other is a fan-made banlist with no official ties to the developers of the game which aims to be replicable on cart within any and all reasonable capacities. Changing game mechanics is not a solution, and an increased level of threat management is just a natural thing we have to deal with as the range available increases.

 

[Tressed]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-532351321 Clutchest battle I've been in... all because DD Flyinium Z Salamance is basically broken.

The fact that I was forced to sack 3 mons due to how whack DD is, I think that Mence is worth a Suspect IMO. DD in general pisses me off, and with Z-moves and the power creep in Gen 7 only makes it more obnoxious:

Comparison I tried to make with Dugtrio on the suspect thread, covering why I think DD is unhealthy for the metagame: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spk4h7
Ended up deleted due to the toxic pillocks that jumped to conclusions and trampled all over the thread.

EDIT: Almost forgot about Kingdra and Zygrade... sorry

The only reason you got blown out was because you stayed in to Toxic with Mantine, thus giving him multiple Dragon Dances. Sacking Garchomp (the least useful mon on your team) forces Salamence to kill it and limits it to one boost, which allows Nihilego to come in and revenge kill Salamence with Power Gem.

 

[AM]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-532351321 Clutchest battle I've been in... all because DD Flyinium Z Salamance is basically broken.

The fact that I was forced to sack 3 mons due to how whack DD is, I think that Mence is worth a Suspect IMO. DD in general pisses me off, and with Z-moves and the power creep in Gen 7 only makes it more obnoxious:

Comparison I tried to make with Dugtrio on the suspect thread, covering why I think DD is unhealthy for the metagame: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spk4h7
Ended up deleted due to the toxic pillocks that jumped to conclusions and trampled all over the thread.

EDIT: Almost forgot about Kingdra and Zygrade... sorry

Your team wasn't good, to put it bluntly, and that's a pretty poor argument to justify a suspect. It's already a team trampled by M-Metagross to begin with, the level that you're at on ladder proves nothing substantial as to what is or isn't an issue in the meta, and it can be argued that your team probably has a bunch of other issues anyways, namely in the form of Protean Greninja, Double Dance Lando-T, Tapu Koko, the fact your flying resist has paper thin defenses with Magearna easy to wear down, and a good list of set up sweepers I won't go into full detail on. For the sake of comparison if I make a team that isn't prepared for Rain, is it all of a sudden a broken aspect? Same with sand, if I make a team with no decent counterplays to Sand do I just consider it to be such a constraint it warrants a suspect? At least with the issue of Stall we've actually have seen longevity in the playstyle for a couple of years to understand the matchup issue that can be associated with in correlation to trapping.

I'm not going into your rant on the blog you made. All I saw was a bunch of buzzwords like uncompetitive and viewing things in a complete vacuum, especially the point about M-Salamence which doesn't really paint the whole picture outside of the Dragon Dance aspect that you're desperately trying to grasp to prove a point.

 

[Dakress]

Threat saturation is too much a problem right now it needs to be addressed

It is a common complain that it is now pretty much impossible to account for everything in the meta, unless you abandon any win con for your team to play hard stall and be totally reactive. This makes the game matchup dependent and less skillful.

I kind of agree with you, but I feel it mostly applies when Duggy's involved in a match, where it's presence either discourages you of getting a kill with grounded stuff, encourages using flying/levitating pokes or forces you to slap Shell Shed to your stallbreakers (assuming it's used in stall). Preparing for him means you're handicapping yourself against certain matchups where, for example, having Choice Scarf Lele/Hoopa-U/Lando would be more useful (balance, bulky offense, the occasional hyper offense, etc). Scolipass is kinda the same deal, but with the difference there's "slightly" more answers to it, some of which have been already been proposed here.

I do disagree, however, that threat saturation's a huge problem as of now. (specially when Dugtrio and ScoliPass's future in OU are looking pretty slim). It's true that in theory, the current abundance of OU viable stuff should mean there's always something you'll be lacking answers to. The thing's that, the oversaturation kind of gets balanced by ourselves in some strange way.

There's something I believe it's called "complacent gaming syndrome" were people, specially in competitive play, tend to prefer stuff that provides better and more consistent results (ever wondered why the "Fox only - Final Destination" meme came to be?), and I feel that Smogon's no exception. In fact, that's pretty much the reason why OU stuff is OU (kinda redundant, but eh), why we document their most used sets and their roles. So I would argue that we do, in some way, know what certain pokemons are most likely gonna do. If feel like this is the main reason why something like Pheromosa's still around, since it's lack of versatility and coverage ensures their few checks/counters are always consistent at walling her (that might change a little with the Quiver Dance set, tho). And even if we don't pack a specific counter against a specific threat, one can always play around it. The opposite reason is what ended up banishing Genesect; it's insane versatility ensured that only very specific variants could be walled by (also) very specific matchups.

That doesn't mean that we should go to the extreme and ban anything below OU usage in the tier, though. Even with a competitive mindset, getting rid of variety effectively stops any possible evolution/changes/trends in the current metagame, and can also help us find an use to niche strategies/pokemons that can potentially work with the proper support. (Trick Room, almost everying in the C rank, etc.) That, and facing the same things over and over again is pretty boring.

Td;lr: Duggy, plus ScoliPass and maaaaaaybe Stall, creates a handicap and that's unhealthy. Threat saturation is not a huge issue and it's not that big, and going to both extremes to fix said dilemma is a no-no.

If you need evidence of this, look no further than the current BL list: it's currently 16 pokemon, and ORAS' BL is 17. That is one less pokemon and Sun and Moon UU just started a couple months ago.

Also, there were less BL pokemon in BW than DP, so it really isn't a matter of just "more pokemon = more threats."

I believe the bans were a nessesary measure; old pokemons couldn't wall the new stuff, some of them were undeniable better than others, and some of the things that were broken also checked other broken stuff (like Serperior checking Azumarril). Most of the things in BL are still viable in the end, and they're not as overwhelming as they were in UU, so I don't really see a problem with it. (They're also re-testing Victini there, so it's not like they're not open for experimentation anyway)

Btw this was my opinion about the whole thing and I'm interested in what you guys think. Is it good that there's variety in a competitive environment or not? Are Z-moves a cause of this issue some are having? Does stall curse every trapper it touches? Etc.

 

[AM]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-garchomp-bulky-offence-balance-team.3594148/ This is the team, and it also covers my mythology when building teams.

With that, I'd say your analogy in regards to weather is about as good as you think the team is. Weather teams commit themselves to a certain build (and only a small number of types), making them very self restrictive (Water/Grass/Steel for rain, Rock/Ground/Steel for sand etc.) which I realize is it's biggest weakness (Rain does rub me the wrong way yes, but I realize that it's not as good as it could be for the above reason). DD allows for an almost brainless wincon, over about 7 or 8 different forms (Zard X; Mence; Zygarde; Dragonite; Gyarados / Gyara-M... and so on), and puts its own restrictions on teambuilding, which cannot be covered well in one go. 'All DDers lose to Fini so it's fine' OK 1) you expect Fini to be on every team? That's not what I recall as a healthy metagame tbh, and if you think it can, it's forming its own centralization because YOU think that's acceptable. With that: 2) you expect Haze / Clear Smog / Unaware mons to fit on every team? Especially the latter two - it's the very DEFINITION of suboptimal coverage. 3) Fini is one specific wall out of a small pool of acceptable mons (Ferrothorn/Celesteela off the top of my head) to punish setup with, and the DD mon on the opposing side likely has support just for Fini + others (see Bulu / Venasaur / various Fighting / Ground / Steel wallbreakers such as Conkeldurr/MegaGross/Excadrill/Buzzwole/Phermosa... and more). It's the reason I said that DD was not inherently broken (as it requires a fair teambuilding mentality to work), and more the bulky abusers of it that end up pushed to a bad influence due to it.

'Oh, but scarfers check them too!' all above 100 speed, you mean? And yet... note how the example I gave had a Mence at +2? 'Use ScarfChomp'... uh... what? One of the MANY scarfers between 100-115 speed forced to run max speed, leading them to lose out on critical kills in various situations? Also, expecting THAT to be run on every team is also polluting creativity in the metagame. 'There are other scarfers'... true... but there isn't exactly a large pool of them, especially not those that can consistently check EVERY DDer out there (+ the fact you're shoehorning a scarfer onto every team not named stall... sounds a bit like restrictions, don't you think?), not to mention running Choice has it's own baggage to check in, so if you make an incorrect read or end up walled by a DDer coming in, it gets a free boost and punches a massive hole in your team unless you went out of your way to prepare for it. Remember how people were screaming how Hoopa-U is 'guaranteed at least one kill'? Well knowing how easy it is for DDers to check stuff: same difference.

Also I never said that one replay was the only evidence I had. It was just the best I knew of in recent enough memory.

Other then all of this (and the Twitlonger post), I should have explained this to most, if not all of you by now. And yet a few of you didn't listen...
(Seriously though, if I did alcohol (which I don't, mind you) I would have taken a shot for the amount of times people cut in on me trying to explain on the OU discord, believe me...)

Sand is mostly correlated to sand cores in the form of Ttar/Hippo + Exca. Claiming that Ddance users are brainless is such a gross misconception when you take into account the nature of both teambuilding and the practical side of it in battling. It falls under any sort of back and forth counterplay in the game and setting yourself up as the user of Dragon Dance to put yourself in a favorable position to win with said move is far from what I consider brainless. Various forms of set up moves, mons, and mechanics put their own restrictions into the game that need to be taken into account for, but you are treating it as if most of these the moment they set up is all of a sudden the end of the world. You can blame the unhealthy nature of the metagame perhaps on tier saturation or overcentralization, two legitimate points you could have a discussion with more merit on. However, putting Dragon Dance users on the pedestal that you have claimed based on largely theoretical standpoints is only going to distill a low level mentality when it comes to building and battling. You've already set yourself up for immediate failure with this logic and newer players who get a little salty based on what you're saying will end up justifying your claims as legitimate points, thus watering down the player pool and halting growth in the community.

If you view situations in your game in a total vacuum then it's going to be difficult to see the bigger picture in that. If I'm utilizing a Char-X DDance and in front of me a basic Sand core with Excadrill remains, do I really have the luxury to set up? If I have a DDance M-Gyarados with a Pheromosa set that I am currently unaware of with potential to be a Scarfer, do I decide to Mega Evolve early or wait until I'm in a real position to sweep? If I'm using a Salamence and in front of me there is a potential that either the Garchomp and Latios in front of me could be Scarf, then perhaps I should wait until there's a real opportunity to freely set up. These are some basic examples of thinking in a match that goes beyond basic teambuilding. Also for the sake of clarity if a set up sweeper gets to +2 with literally no problems what so ever, there's a pretty good chance the game was won long before it got to +2 considering you probably removed their counterplays to said sweeper or the team was bad / messed up in their gameplay somewhere. None of this is brainless it comes with the territory of devising a game plan both before and in the battle. That is the nature of the game we play.

Hoopa-U and DDancers are not the same difference. You are correlating two different roles that provide two different functions and as such necessitate two different counterplays to them, don't think there is much need to go into more detail here. People will come at you with pitchforks if you're understanding is faulty, which is evident because you had the notion that posting a replay below a 1200 ELO rating on the OU Ladder would have developed any legitimate points and the blog is trying to legitimize a comparison similar in the Hoopa-U / DDancer point when the comparison is like apples and oranges. For the past 3 years I've seen plenty of users like yourself make a lot of wild notions and we've all been there at some point in time. From what I've been seeing I would advise you to chill back a bit, the hostility towards you is largely due to your own perceptions and once you make a first poor impression, which from what I've seen in the OU forum you have, it's hard to come back with people taking you seriously.

The last line is also genuinely not funny, another point in the cringe factor that gets people around here quickly agitated.

 

[cityscapes]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-garchomp-bulky-offence-balance-team.3594148/ This is the team, and it also covers my mythology when building teams.

With that, I'd say your analogy in regards to weather is about as good as you think the team is. Weather teams commit themselves to a certain build (and only a small number of types), making them very self restrictive (Water/Grass/Steel for rain, Rock/Ground/Steel for sand etc.) which I realize is it's biggest weakness (Rain does rub me the wrong way yes, but I realize that it's not as good as it could be for the above reason). DD allows for an almost brainless wincon, over about 7 or 8 different forms (Zard X; Mence; Zygarde; Dragonite; Gyarados / Gyara-M... and so on), and puts its own restrictions on teambuilding, which cannot be covered well in one go. 'All DDers lose to Fini so it's fine' OK 1) you expect Fini to be on every team? That's not what I recall as a healthy metagame tbh, and if you think it can, it's forming its own centralization because YOU think that's acceptable. With that: 2) you expect Haze / Clear Smog / Unaware mons to fit on every team? Especially the latter two - it's the very DEFINITION of suboptimal coverage. 3) Fini is one specific wall out of a small pool of acceptable mons (Ferrothorn/Celesteela off the top of my head) to punish setup with, and the DD mon on the opposing side likely has support just for Fini + others (see Bulu / Venasaur / various Fighting / Ground / Steel wallbreakers such as Conkeldurr/MegaGross/Excadrill/Buzzwole/Phermosa... and more). It's the reason I said that DD was not inherently broken (as it requires a fair teambuilding mentality to work), and more the bulky abusers of it that end up pushed to a bad influence due to it.

'Oh, but scarfers check them too!' all above 100 speed, you mean? And yet... note how the example I gave had a Mence at +2? 'Use ScarfChomp'... uh... what? One of the MANY scarfers between 100-115 speed forced to run max speed, leading them to lose out on critical kills in various situations? Also, expecting THAT to be run on every team is also polluting creativity in the metagame. 'There are other scarfers'... true... but there isn't exactly a large pool of them, especially not those that can consistently check EVERY DDer out there (+ the fact you're shoehorning a scarfer onto every team not named stall... sounds a bit like restrictions, don't you think?), not to mention running Choice has it's own baggage to check in, so if you make an incorrect read or end up walled by a DDer coming in, it gets a free boost and punches a massive hole in your team unless you went out of your way to prepare for it. Remember how people were screaming how Hoopa-U is 'guaranteed at least one kill'? Well knowing how easy it is for DDers to check stuff: same difference.

Also I never said that one replay was the only evidence I had. It was just the best I knew of in recent enough memory.

Other then all of this (and the Twitlonger post), I should have explained this to most, if not all of you by now. And yet a few of you didn't listen...
(Seriously though, if I did alcohol (which I don't, mind you) I would have taken a shot for the amount of times people cut in on me trying to explain on the OU discord, believe me...)

EDIT: Oh, and no Johns on my end - but I have a history of not being able to climb ELOs to save my life. Not because I suck, but because of flaws in how they're built + my current irl scedule. We're all human and have different perspectives, no?

The thing that you have to realize is that Dragon Dancers often provide very little utility outside of being a wincon. Unless they give up power or speed, they typically won't be able to take many strong hits unless their typing allows it. Let's use the examples you gave:

• Mega Charizard X has a bunch of weaknesses. Maybe you can switch it in on Tapu Bulu or something but it won't be able to switch in on much else. It also has a 4x hazard weakness before Mega Evolving.
• Salamence is pretty frail, like not Pheromosa frail but maybe around Tapu Lele level. It's weak to Fairy so it doesn't get much opportunity to set up because of all the fairies. It has a Stealth Rock weakness and can't run Leftovers because of Flyinium Z.
• Gyarados is slow. Even after a DD, it's still outsped by a lot of stuff. It can't OHKO Mega Metagross without tons of boosts before it gets Thunder Punched back. It also can't run Leftovers and has pretty bad physical bulk because it doesn't use Intimidate.
• Zygarde has some bulk, but not that much power. It has lots of weaknesses and can't set up on neutral hits from Choice users.
• Dragonite absolutely requires hazard removal, and it's slow and has weaknesses too.

This might seem like "BLAH BLAH BLAH THE MONS HAVE WEAKNESSES SO THEY'RE NOT BROKEN" which is true, but I'm trying to say that you don't have to run Tapu Fini, Haze, or any of those other moves on your team. Dragon Dancers need tons of support to function (for example, all of them except Zygarde need rocks off the field, and some mons eat the Mega slot or Z move) so if you can deny them that support, then they won't end up "getting a kill every time they come in". Mega Charizard X will be forced to Roost instead of Dragon Dance if you can keep rocks up. If you set up something like Belly Drum Azumarill, the Dragon Dancers will not suddenly save the day, and if they do, it's because you didn't give Azumarill the adequate support to sweep. Dragon Dancers don't check stuff as easily as you'd think

Couldn't you just switch out Fini when you see the mons that threaten it and not just letting it lose unless you come face-to-face with the fabled Poisonium Z Golisopod? I mean seriously who leaves Fini in on a Bulu? That's what your other team members are for.

If you want to run a defensive team and don't care about all this offensive pressure, that's when you need to whip out the Haze Toxapex; the Whirlwind Skarmory; the Foul Play Mega Sableye. These things look much more legit on a stall team, don't they?

If you have a problem with the OU Discord, then just tell a mod or something (not on the channel, because they'll likely give you a three second response) if you feel that people are being mean in addition to disagreeing. A response like that will not help your case.

 

[pika pal]

Edit: What a post to be #2000

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-532351321 Clutchest battle I've been in... all because DD Flyinium Z Salamance is basically broken.

The fact that I was forced to sack 3 mons due to how whack DD is, I think that Mence is worth a Suspect IMO. DD in general pisses me off, and with Z-moves and the power creep in Gen 7 only makes it more obnoxious:

Comparison I tried to make with Dugtrio on the suspect thread, covering why I think DD is unhealthy for the metagame: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spk4h7
Ended up deleted due to the toxic pillocks that jumped to conclusions and trampled all over the thread.

EDIT: Almost forgot about Kingdra and Zygrade... sorry

Let me go over the problems with this team and that game.

- It's running SD Mega Garchomp. I like the thing, but in a Meta that is filled with fast/bulky Fairy types because of the Tapus and Magearna, this thing is not a good choice for a Mega. To an extent this is why Latias, while not impotent, has been seeing less usage as well.

- Your team has no speed control beyond Nihilego, and the fastest member of your team otherwise is Latias. This is a big part of why your team struggles not just with DD-ers, but just would struggle with fast opponents like Pheromosa.

- You don't have a physically bulky switch in. Your team is supposed to sponge hits by using resists I guess, but the only member with a particularly decent Physical resist set is Magearna, so either the rest of your team gets pulverized or she gets worn down fast.

- I don't see what some of these EV spreads are for. What speed benchmark is Garchomp aiming to hit with 224 Adamant? What's with Mew's spread? Why does Mantine have 40 SpA EVs? I'm sure there was a thought to these, but it's not stated in your thread, so I can't decipher them.

- Mewnium-Z. I just don't think this is a worthwhile usage of the Z-Move slot. Whether it's changing Mew or just using a different item, there's probably a better dedication to this. You have it running Naive for damage on its other two moves, yet they're mainly employed as utility on anything without STAB or significant attack investment. Genesis Supernova only gives you Psychic Terrain once, and given your team doesn't have any Psychic attackers who benefit from it besides Mew itself (Latias isn't grounded), your opponent isn't under any real pressure to get rid of the terrain as you seem to intend.

- You used up Genesis Supernova on what was obviously a bulky Excadrill. When your opponent has Tapu Lele, Genesis Supernova at most serves to give you a neutral hit nuke for the match up. Excadrill clicked Toxic because the logical move would have been to U-Turn out if your Mew lacked a Fire/Fighting move.

- You chose to slap Toxic on Tapu Lele with Mantine rather than Roost Stall it, which would have been a winning stall for Mantine since it could wait out Psychci Terrain and would have had a net gain of health to keep itself ready for later, rather than having Latias have to sack itself just to heal Mantine.

- As has been pointed out, you used Toxic against Salamence rather than immediately going to Garchomp. That is really what allowed it to get two DD uses on you, since Mega Garchomp vs +1 Mence forces Mence to KO Chomp or get killed going for more set up. Sacced Chomp brings Nihilego in for the revenge kill, and with both Excadrill and Fini down the team had no good switch into Power Gem. The only mon that was out of range of a Power Gem KO after Rocks was the un-transformed Ash-Greninja (Scarf Power Gem does 60-70% +12.5% from Rocks, it had 87%), but

* if it came in on a sac, Nihilego is at +1 and can now KO it with Power Gem
* Greninja therefore would have to switch in manually and eat the Power Gem, but now it's checkmate. Switch Nihilego out to Magearna and you win. If Greninja picks Water Shuriken, it's locked into a move that can't KO Magearna without landing a total of 8 Shuriken hits (each one averages around 8%, Magearna has around 64% after Rocks) and thus will probably get KOd by Magearna making any type of response. Greninja can't switch out, because Mageara KO's anything else that comes in after Rocks + Fleur Cannon. And if Greninja clicks Hydro Pump, it KO's Magearna, transforms, and then Nihilego revenges it with Power Gem since it can't swap to stronger Water Shuriken and it can't switch out to sac for the change because of rocks. Nihilego now wins the game by spamming Power Gem against the rest of the opposing team.


It wasn't the fault of Salamence, but the choice not to immediately sac Garchomp gave Mence two set up turns, which is an incredibly dangerous thing to give to any sweeper, much less a Snowballing Moxie one like Z-Fly Salamence. If anything, the fact that you managed to pull that game back after such a set of blunders suggests Salamence is not the suspect worthy monster you describe it as, and if anything showcases Nihilego's strengths more considering it pulled you out of that abyss.

The thing that you have to realize is that Dragon Dancers often provide very little utility outside of being a wincon. Unless they give up power or speed, they typically won't be able to take many strong hits unless their typing allows it. Let's use the examples you gave:

• Mega Charizard X has a bunch of weaknesses. Maybe you can switch it in on Tapu Bulu or something but it won't be able to switch in on much else. It also has a 4x hazard weakness before Mega Evolving.
• Salamence is pretty frail, like not Pheromosa frail but maybe around Tapu Lele level. It's weak to Fairy so it doesn't get much opportunity to set up because of all the fairies. It has a Stealth Rock weakness and can't run Leftovers because of Flyinium Z.
• Gyarados is slow. Even after a DD, it's still outsped by a lot of stuff. It can't OHKO Mega Metagross without tons of boosts before it gets Thunder Punched back. It also can't run Leftovers and has pretty bad physical bulk because it doesn't use Intimidate.
• Zygarde has some bulk, but not that much power. It has lots of weaknesses and can't set up on neutral hits from Choice users.
• Dragonite absolutely requires hazard removal, and it's slow and has weaknesses too.

This might seem like "BLAH BLAH BLAH THE MONS HAVE WEAKNESSES SO THEY'RE NOT BROKEN" which is true, but I'm trying to say that you don't have to run Tapu Fini, Haze, or any of those other moves on your team. Dragon Dancers need tons of support to function (for example, all of them except Zygarde need rocks off


oh no I accidentally posted the reply too early

Minor thing, I wasn't aware of DD Zygarde. Is that actually a set, or did you just bring it up because the topic was "OU mons who can run DD"?

 

[Leo]

Minor thing, I wasn't aware of DD Zygarde. Is that actually a set, or did you just bring it up because the topic was "OU mons who can run DD"?

I'm pretty sure the other guy mentioned DD Zygarde and Kingdra, even though they're irrelevant

 

[Joycap]

I'm pretty sure the other guy mentioned DD Zygarde and Kingdra, even though they're irrelevant

I mentioned DD Zygarde / Kingra because they have noteable or otherwise respectable bulk to abuse setup with (one of my central points. 108/121/95 and 75/95/95 defenses respectively). Even if it's not their go-to set/function the option is STILL there.