Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[Sergeant Spooky]

You don't even need thunder punch (on SD sets) to handle Toxapex, +2 Knock Off does 70% minimum and even if Mawile gets burned or hazed, itemless knock off is enough to remove the rest of Toxapex's HP. This is even if Toxapex is fully invested in def.

I feel like Magearna will absolutely be way more splashable due to its bulk, access to Volt Switch, and not being a mega, but in terms of sheer breaking potential it doesn't really compare to Mawile, which, as noted above, only needs neutral coverage to get past something that would otherwise be a check. I feel like the changes in SM will make it go from uber to really freaking good, not anything less.

 

[volx757]

I doubt M-Mawile will want to be dropping Sucker Punch much, even with Lele around. Faster teams can dispatch of it pretty easily if it isn't running SP. It's also nice to have some kind of counterplay against Duggy and Magnezone if it gets trapped.

As for it's set Thunderpunch is a bit redundant unless you're specifically aiming to bop Toxapex. Fire Fang already covers Skarm and Celesteela while also helping out against things it couldn't otherwise beat such as M-Scizor and Jirachi and Ferrothorn.

Ice Punch may be a bit unnecessary as well as non bulky Landorus-T is generally clean 2hko'd by Play Rough through Intimidate (bulky variants only need about 25% prior before they can't switch in) and no other Ground type in the tier really wants to switch into it.

Yea I was just throwing some stuff out there, more to refresh our collective memory that MMaw is a monster. Sucker for dugtrio (and zone to a lesser extent, it's only a 2hko) is a decent case. The nerf to the move's BP IMO doesn't play into things as much as psychic terrain does for this mon.

T-punch yea pretty much only hits toxapex (and tentacruel lol) significantly harder than other waters you can hit with play rough. Ice punch tbh i think has a nicer niche over it in that you can OHKO lando on the switch, cause you can't really stay in on any variant of Landot to go for that 2HKO.

I hadn't even considered knock, but yeah that's probly a solid bet for most sets to run over one of of the boltbeam, though i wouldn't rule out fire fang as OHKOs on ferro and msciz are very nice tech.

SD feels like it'll be a similar case as Alowak, it _would_ be nice, but when are you gonna set it up and not get forced out without sucker? and if you do run sucker and SD you've got no room for coverage.

 

[Creator of Chaos]

Honestly I'm looking forward to mawiles introduction. I don't think it's broken anymore but it's definitely gonna shake up the meta. Something with its will power will make waves make no doubt. Also the only stab it needs is play rough so there is coverage room if you forgo Iron head. That said there's more that checks it now, Z moves exist and the sicker punch Nerf means it's low speed actually hurts it (even if lele eventually gets banned). Time will tell.

Anyway as a firm advocate of fairy spam I've been wondering how well it would pair with magerna?. Dugtrio aside I can see alot of benefits in spamming steel / fairy. Great neutral coverage outside Tran and there typing/bulk makes both hard to remove.

 

[pika pal]

Mawile was already a pretty powerful Wallbreaker, and if I recall it had a Sub-Punch set as a way to lure checks like Heatran, which could definitely be a good way to set up a sweep or otherwise remove said checks for something like Shift Gear Magearna on a Fairy spam team.

 

[snaildelagate]

Honestly I'm looking forward to mawiles introduction. I don't think it's broken anymore but it's definitely gonna shake up the meta. Something with its will power will make waves make no doubt. Also the only stab it needs is play rough so there is coverage room if you forgo Iron head. That said there's more that checks it now, Z moves exist and the sicker punch Nerf means it's low speed actually hurts it (even if lele eventually gets banned). Time will tell.

Anyway as a firm advocate of fairy spam I've been wondering how well it would pair with magerna?. Dugtrio aside I can see alot of benefits in spamming steel / fairy. Great neutral coverage outside Tran and there typing/bulk makes both hard to remove.

I think that Mawile and Magearna complement each other well since each can pack respective fire moves to break down each other's checks and counters. I think that if mawile gets banned this gen it might be because of how strong Trick Room gets with Mega-Maw in tow. We've already seen Trick Room in SPL which demonstrates its renewed viability this gen but a team of Uxie/Zong/Necrozma (SR trick room support largely interchangable) + Magearna + Tapu Bulu + Alolan Wak + P2/Mimikyu + Mega Mawile could be completely broken. Offensive Wak already manhandles stall given correct prediction and doesn't fear duggy if TR or Grassy Terrain are up along with SR. Mega Mawile manhandled offense and balance last gen and with Trick Room support it does not need to deal with Lele who dies to Iron Head immediately. Mawile can use a move slot usually reserved for sub or SD to use Fire Fang to beat Megearna's usual checks and counters opening up a Magearna sweep in the late game. Lando seems like the best counter to both these mons offensively but if either of them SD on the switch then its over. Alternatively Lando can just be worn down through repeated switch-ins. Honestly on paper it seems like a really, really strong archetype though we'll have to wait and see if a team like this has any impact on the meta down the road.

 

[drakylon]

I'm fairly certain Mawile still 2HKOs everything viable in the tier, and that it'll be as overpowered as it was for the entirety of last gen for the same reasons as last gen. While the existence of Tapu Lele does hurt it a bit against offense due to the newfound unreliability of Sucker Punch, Trick Room is also a lot more viable this gen than last. Mawile also utterly destroys stall outside of Dugtrio:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 367-433 (52.1 - 61.5%)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 213-251 (70 - 82.5%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%)
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 210-247 (69 - 81.2%)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 267-315 (75.8 - 89.4%)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 226-267 (67.6 - 79.9%)

And there's not much these can do back to Mawile. Immunity to Toxic and being slow enough to not care about Thunder Wave help.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

What beats standard Zygarde coil, sub, toxic, thousand arrows?

 

[LeNorm]

What beats standard Zygarde coil, sub, toxic, thousand arrows?

Most pokemon with Ice Beam can do serious damage to Zygarde, particularly if they outspeed it.

 

[TURBODERP]

I'm fairly certain Mawile still 2HKOs everything viable in the tier, and that it'll be as overpowered as it was for the entirety of last gen for the same reasons as last gen. While the existence of Tapu Lele does hurt it a bit against offense due to the newfound unreliability of Sucker Punch, Trick Room is also a lot more viable this gen than last. Mawile also utterly destroys stall outside of Dugtrio:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 367-433 (52.1 - 61.5%)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 213-251 (70 - 82.5%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%)
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 210-247 (69 - 81.2%)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 267-315 (75.8 - 89.4%)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 226-267 (67.6 - 79.9%)

And there's not much these can do back to Mawile. Immunity to Toxic and being slow enough to not care about Thunder Wave help.

HAHA oh wow. I thought Toxapex would actually wall this thing. I forgot that having the highest Atk in the game means you can do stuff like this.

 

[Zebstrika]

What beats standard Zygarde coil, sub, toxic, thousand arrows?

Try physically defensive Tapu Fini. Doesn't take much damage from Thousand arrows, misty terrain blocks toxic, easily beats down Zygarde with Moon blast. Clefable works similarly, not caring about Toxic if it has magic guard or heal bell and even Coil boosts are no problem if has Unaware

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Bleh I can't really fit them on my stall team without regearing the whole team. Been using hp ice Zapdos but it just doesn't work enough

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

Try physically defensive Tapu Fini. Doesn't take much damage from Thousand arrows, misty terrain blocks toxic, easily beats down Zygarde with Moon blast. Clefable works similarly, not caring about Toxic if it has magic guard or heal bell and even Coil boosts are no problem if has Unaware

B...But you can't have both?

 

[Photofluid]

I am interested in how you guys think about the terrains right now. Are there any efforts on further exploiting the mechanics? I feel like it could be really interesting even though I am not seeing a lot of it right now.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Koko lele could support rest recovery when switched back into, really other than boosting said stab options and wanting to sack a mono team it's all really straight forward.

Safeguard+weaker dragons
No priority
Leftovers+ weaker ground

None of it wants to be paired with gravity tho cause it benefits Your opponent and You can't land sing cause it cancels it out or earthquake is cut in half

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I am interested in how you guys think about the terrains right now. Are there any efforts on further exploiting the mechanics? I feel like it could be really interesting even though I am not seeing a lot of it right now.

I'm trying to think of the different ways terrains could be exploited, and here are some things I came up with.

Secret Power
I think the best way to exploit Secret Power would be by pairing Jirachi with Tapu Bulu. The two have good synergy, with Jirachi being immune to Poison attacks, and Tapu Bulu weakening Earthquake. Without Grassy Terrain, Jirachi works like a normal paraflinch Jirachi. However, when Grassy Terrain is active, it has a 60% chance to put the foe to sleep. (By the way, how does this interact with the Sleep Clause?) Additionally, because Jirachi is a Steel type, the opponent will be reluctant to send in their own Tapu and change the terrain.

Telekinesis
This doesn't so much abuse terrain as it does combat terrain abusers. Because it raises the target (probably a Tapu) off the ground, it robs the Tapu of the benefits of their terrain. However, because the effect will disappear if the opponent switches, it won't let you, for example, freely inflict status during Misty Terrain. It would more be used to cripple a Tapu and force it out.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

I want to suggest suspect testing Xurkitree.
Like Hoopa-Unbound who was Uber but got unbanned to OU in Gen7, it has a sky-high SpAtt base with 173, a mediocre speed with base 83 and great coverage with moves like Energy Ball, Dazzing Gleam and the obivous Thunderbolt. But unlike Hoopa-Unbound, it has access to Z-Hypnosis, which not only boosts its speed by one stage, it also puts the foe's pokemon asleep, rendering it useless for at least one turn. Xurkitree also has access to Tail Glow, which boosts its SpAtt by three steps - and after putting the foe asleep with Z-Hypnosis, it can use a free Tail Glow, without having the risk of taking damage.

A boosted Xurkitree can OHKO nearly all Pokemon with Thunderbolt or Energy ball, even those who resist both, like Tapu Bulu. Due to its ability, its SpAtt stat is boosted even further after defeating a pokemon. It even 2-3HKOs Eviolithe Chansey (depending on Chansey's EVs and nature) after a Tail Glow with its Thunderbolt. If it just sets up another Tail Glow, which should be no problem against Chansey, it may OHKO it after Stealth Rock Damage.

The only answer to this beast is to sacrifice one pokemon to bring in a faster scarfer - or, if there are no entry hazards, a sashed mon like Dugtrio - which knows a ground type move to OHKO it. Even then, the Xurkitree player still has the advantage due to the opposing mon being either locked into one move due to the scarf, or to be able to score an easy kill against the sashed mon with any priority move, for example Water Shuriken to trigger Greninja's Battle Bond.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

Bleh I can't really fit them on my stall team without regearing the whole team. Been using hp ice Zapdos but it just doesn't work enough

Eviolithe Porygon2 with Ice Beam. It 2HKOes Zygarde with ease. Just ignore toxic or heal it afterwards with Chansey's heal bell.

 

[BuoyantLlama]

I want to suggest suspect testing Xurkitree.
Like Hoopa-Unbound who was Uber but got unbanned to OU in Gen7, it has a sky-high SpAtt base with 173, a mediocre speed with base 83 and great coverage with moves like Energy Ball, Dazzing Gleam and the obivous Thunderbolt. But unlike Hoopa-Unbound, it has access to Z-Hypnosis, which not only boosts its speed by one stage, it also puts the foe's pokemon asleep, rendering it useless for at least one turn. Xurkitree also has access to Tail Glow, which boosts its SpAtt by three steps - and after putting the foe asleep with Z-Hypnosis, it can use a free Tail Glow, without having the risk of taking damage.

The thing about Xurkitree is that Thunderbolt itself doesn't have good enough coverage for Xurkitree to run a Z-Status + Tail Glow set, because then it only gets one more coverage move, which will probably go to one of Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, or Hidden Power Ice. None of those give strong enough coverage to break things like Mega Venusaur, Excadrill (except Energy Ball at +3 maybe but I'm on mobile so I don't wanna calc it), or Alolan Marowak. Depending on the move it picks, it could also lose to Mamoswine, Latios, Landorus-T, or any number of other threats. It's also slow enough to be outsped by Pheromosa, Mega Zam, and scarfers like Lele, Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Latios, even after the +1 speed from Z-Hypnosis.
You compared it to Hoopa-U, but that coverage is a huge difference. Hoopa-U has Dark STAB, which is much more spammable than Electric STAB. Despite the influx of Fairies this gen, it doesn't have to deal with immunities like A-Marowak and ground types. So Hoopa-U requires less prediction.
Hoopa-U also has more coverage options and multiple viable attacking stats to set it apart from Xurkitree, in addition to the STAB difference.

I'm not trying to say Xurkitree isn't viable, because it can be a pretty good late game sweeper with good support. But there's too much counter play for it to be banworthy.

 

[jpw234]

I'm trying to think of the different ways terrains could be exploited, and here are some things I came up with.

Secret Power
I think the best way to exploit Secret Power would be by pairing Jirachi with Tapu Bulu. The two have good synergy, with Jirachi being immune to Poison attacks, and Tapu Bulu weakening Earthquake. Without Grassy Terrain, Jirachi works like a normal paraflinch Jirachi. However, when Grassy Terrain is active, it has a 60% chance to put the foe to sleep. (By the way, how does this interact with the Sleep Clause?) Additionally, because Jirachi is a Steel type, the opponent will be reluctant to send in their own Tapu and change the terrain.

Telekinesis
This doesn't so much abuse terrain as it does combat terrain abusers. Because it raises the target (probably a Tapu) off the ground, it robs the Tapu of the benefits of their terrain. However, because the effect will disappear if the opponent switches, it won't let you, for example, freely inflict status during Misty Terrain. It would more be used to cripple a Tapu and force it out.

Nature Power Heatran with Koko or Bulu lets you run a water-type lure without using your item which can throw people off if you're using Leftovers or perhaps be useful with Choice Scarf. It's also just fun to Thunderbolt a Gyarados with Heatran.

 

[guan123]

Intresting stuff is going to happen with Mega-Manectric and Mega-Bunny if their mega stone is coming off soon too. Just hope it won't hurt that much of both Greninja viability.

That won't hurt Greninja (Protean) viabilitiy that much. Greninja got banned in ORAS despite these mons, and they have trouble switching in to Greninja anyway. Ash Greninja may get hurt some but again, neither wants to switch into a Specs Hydro Pump

 

[Siggu]

Nature Power Heatran with Koko or Bulu lets you run a water-type lure without using your item which can throw people off if you're using Leftovers or perhaps be useful with Choice Scarf. It's also just fun to Thunderbolt a Gyarados with Heatran.

Not to mention they'd be boosted by the terrains. Nature Power Energy Ball wouldn't be as strong as Bloom Doom (120 BP vs 190 BP), but it's not single use.

 

[LeNorm]

I want to suggest suspect testing Xurkitree.
Like Hoopa-Unbound who was Uber but got unbanned to OU in Gen7, it has a sky-high SpAtt base with 173, a mediocre speed with base 83 and great coverage with moves like Energy Ball, Dazzing Gleam and the obivous Thunderbolt. But unlike Hoopa-Unbound, it has access to Z-Hypnosis, which not only boosts its speed by one stage, it also puts the foe's pokemon asleep, rendering it useless for at least one turn. Xurkitree also has access to Tail Glow, which boosts its SpAtt by three steps - and after putting the foe asleep with Z-Hypnosis, it can use a free Tail Glow, without having the risk of taking damage.

A boosted Xurkitree can OHKO nearly all Pokemon with Thunderbolt or Energy ball, even those who resist both, like Tapu Bulu. Due to its ability, its SpAtt stat is boosted even further after defeating a pokemon. It even 2-3HKOs Eviolithe Chansey (depending on Chansey's EVs and nature) after a Tail Glow with its Thunderbolt. If it just sets up another Tail Glow, which should be no problem against Chansey, it may OHKO it after Stealth Rock Damage.

The only answer to this beast is to sacrifice one pokemon to bring in a faster scarfer - or, if there are no entry hazards, a sashed mon like Dugtrio - which knows a ground type move to OHKO it. Even then, the Xurkitree player still has the advantage due to the opposing mon being either locked into one move due to the scarf, or to be able to score an easy kill against the sashed mon with any priority move, for example Water Shuriken to trigger Greninja's Battle Bond.

Xuriktree is too situational and has too many counters to be suspect tested - even at +1 speed, it is outsped my most choice scarf users, and many not-scarfed speedy threats (Phero, Mega-Zam), and lacks much coverage. Yes, it does have a lot of speed, but only at +1. To sweep, it needs to: Z-Hynosis something that cannot outspeed and OHKO it, set up a tail glow, and even then there are still quite a few pokemon that check it. And it only gets one opportunity at this, because it is reliant upon a Z move to boost its speed.

Xuriktree is not even a top tier threat in OU, and has so many counters I can hardly even see your point.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Right now I think the current meta game requires: a steel pokemon, something with ice coverage, a choice scarf user, phesmo check and maybe a a degree of hazards.

I think these are things every team needs right now

 

[gorgie]

when m-mawile drops, trick room will be devastating.

think assembling all 5 pieces of Exodia levels of devastating

 

[LeNorm]

Can I bring up what I think is an under-discussed pokemon: Blaziken.

Obviously, Blaze has been banned since it gained Speed Boost (BW if I am not mistaken), because of Speed Boost's ability to snowball, which makes it quickly able to outspeed pretty much the entire tier.

However, it hasn't been tried in the current meta as it was insta-banned. But the current meta contains quite a few pokemon that outspeed Blaze even at +1. Out of the unboosted mons, jolly/timid Blaze at +1 is outside by Phero, Mega-Zam, Mega-Aerodactyle, Mega Beedril (when it is added, later this month). Similarly, it is outsped by Ash Greninja and Tapu Koko if it lacks a speed boosting nature. Added to this, a number of common choice scarf users will easily outspeed Blaze at +1, and OHKO blaze (e.g. Tapu Lele, Landorus T, Garchomp, Latios, etc.).

This means that Blaze will still need to run protect to have even a chance of outspeeding many top tier threats. This in turn means it is very hard to fit swords dance on Blaze, which means it struggles to have enough power to sweep (120 physical attack and 110 special attack are pretty meh for OU - the same physical attack as regular Sharpedo, which has the same ability and a higher base speed). It also doesn't have great coverage, assuming it runs Flare Blitz and High Jump Kick, which means it is countered by most of the top tier threats. Indeed, of the A+ and S ranked, only the steel types (Mega-Metagross [without Rock Polish], Celesteela, Magearna) and Tapu Koko would struggle to consistently deal with Blaziken. It does quite well against quite a few of the lower tier threats, but many of them can beat Blaze (going down the A-'s, Zygarde, Mega-Zam, Dugtrio, Keldeo, Manaphy, Rotom-W, Salamence, Mega Venusaur).

It seems to me that Blaziken is not any better than many of the A and S ranked pokemon that currently dominate the tier, and that it is at least worth a shot in OU, to see what happens. But the introduction of lots of new threats (and Greninja's return, + Ash's, and the change of water shuriken to a special move) means I think that Blaziken deserves a chance to see if it can exist as part of a healthy metagame in OU, rather than sitting unused in Ubers, without even a chance to show its potential.

Besides, Mega-Metagross needs something to balance it's dominance in OU!