Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[Dakress]

I know it's a bit premature and multiple members of the Smogon staff have said no to this idea, but has anybody looked at suspecting Arena Trap in particular? Or should I just git gud and learn how to deal with Dugtrio since Team Preview is a thing?

The thing is that, compared to every other trapper that has been "banned" in OU, Dugtrio is not broken by itself. It's bulk is paper-thin and while it's offenses are *just* enough to kill 4x weak, anything that flies/floats can beat it.

Like njnp said, what makes Duggy really shine is it's use alongside stall, where it's pretty easy to put . In other playstyles you let something die and then revenge kill it. With stall, however, you can easily put pressure into the other player in attempting to kill a wall, and in one of the multiple switch ins, Dugtrio will eventually come in and then do it's job like it was no thing.

 

[Boomfan56]

What's the best z abuser right now? I've had trouble against double dance lando but that's in part because I don't expect it at all (usually I think it's scarf). I feel like I have to pray they use the z move on my sack and then I have something to tank and revenge kill.

 

[GaRgAnt]

The thing is that, compared to every other trapper that has been "banned" in OU, Dugtrio is not broken by itself. It's bulk is paper-thin and while it's offenses are *just* enough to kill 4x weak, anything that flies/floats can beat it.

Like njnp said, what makes Duggy really shine is it's use alongside stall, where it's pretty easy to put . In other playstyles you let something die and then revenge kill it. With stall, however, you can easily put pressure into the other player in attempting to kill a wall, and in one of the multiple switch ins, Dugtrio will eventually come in and then do it's job like it was no thing.

In that case, I feel like probably the next suspect should be Mega Sableye because forcing switches and even making their Skarmory waste a turn on Defogging your rocks is probably the only consistent way to even fight stall- and Mega Sableye makes it such a horrible mind game instead.

I mean, sure, Magic Bounce is generally annoying, but Mega Sableye's typing and stats make it far, far better than fucking Espeon.

 

[Ema Skye]

What's the best z abuser right now? I've had trouble against double dance lando but that's in part because I don't expect it at all (usually I think it's scarf). I feel like I have to pray they use the z move on my sack and then I have something to tank and revenge kill.

Lando is probably the best because it is equally good with Rockium and Flyinium.

Garchomp might also be another candidate because it's viable with three different Z-crystals (Dragonium, Groundium, Firium).

 

[KaioNabuco]

What's the best z abuser right now? I've had trouble against double dance lando but that's in part because I don't expect it at all (usually I think it's scarf). I feel like I have to pray they use the z move on my sack and then I have something to tank and revenge kill.

Landorus-T, Porygon-Z, Salamence, Dragonite, Volcarona, and Garchomp. Those are the ones I've seen being efficient.

 

[VCrakeV]

Given the speedier threats this gen (looking at you, scarf Pheromosa), what has everyone been doing for speed control? I've tried sticky Web lately, but the best user, Galvantula, isn't great outside of setting up webs. It's also easily countered with defogger and rapid spin.

I was thinking about tailwind, but it's not up for very long, so it's barely worth setting up.

 

[Jojobobo]

Thundy-T is my preferred Electric type this gen. I run Scarf with Volt, Tbolt, HP Ice, and then either Sludge Wave or Dark Pulse. SW if I want to drop Tapus and hit Grass mons harder, Dark Pulse to blast A-Maro (which otherwise walls) or Mega-Meta. Great lead due to Scarf and Volt, but also counters common Lando-T and Garchomp leads. Yet, it also has enough power to be a great revenge-killer and late-game win-con. Then, of course, the Ground and Electric immunities are great, and it's phenomenal for grabbing momentum with Volt Switch.

You could also try Agility sets, but I'm not a big fan of those.

Scarf sounds like a sweet idea for this gen, and Thundy-T does seem well suited to take down the Tapus and hit Metagross hard, I might give it a try.

 

[Luckstard.]

Given the speedier threats this gen (looking at you, scarf Pheromosa), what has everyone been doing for speed control? I've tried sticky Web lately, but the best user, Galvantula, isn't great outside of setting up webs. It's also easily countered with defogger and rapid spin.

I was thinking about tailwind, but it's not up for very long, so it's barely worth setting up.

scarf Pheromosa speedtier is unbeatable, its way to fast to compete with, you gotta have something to switch into or use the choice lock to grab momentum / setup something.

There is 2 framework of offense nowadays :

- The one with strong offensive versatile mons able to put a lot of pressure on your opp. You'll need to make good predictions in order to keep your opponent under pressure and win.
- The other one is (suicide) lead able to setup SR and possibly SWeb (Mamoswine, Garchomp, Azelf, Landorus-T, Smeargle etc...) and 4 setup sweepers + a scarf as finisher + rkiller.

In the first framework you play around Pheromosa, it's basically up to prediction, if it's choice lock then good predictions may give you a big advantage (unless U-Turn from Pheromosa). You may also pack priority users (WShuriken Gren, Scizor, Azumarill etc...) to force Pheromosa out and grab momentum again, but it's up to prediction and it is the main reason offensive playstyles have trouble to be consistent (between other factors).

In the second, scarf Pheromosa may be harder to deal with, depending on how you play it but i'd say you need SWeb anyway and then you setup sweepers may have a boost in speed (mainly DDers like Gyarados or RP like Landorus / Metagross) and you'll be faster and strong enough to kill a Pheromosa. otherwise you'll just sack something and setup an other mon on the choice lock, if its not scarfed then it should be slower than most of your team so easily RK'd.

All in all Pheromosa isnt the biggest problem offense have to face (despite being a huge one), for example scarf lele is harder to deal with due to its immun to priorities but you can still somehow play around the choice lock.

So all in all best thing is to carry fast powerful mons and to build your team in order to eb able to turn around the choice lock on most of common scarfers while having your own scarfer faster than lele (or a DD, or a SWeb + something faster) because it is atm the most dangerous for offensive teams.

Mainly talked about offense since defensive builds dont care much about speed control and just pack strong answer to the Pokémon I mentionned.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Landorus-T, Porygon-Z, Salamence, Dragonite, Volcarona, and Garchomp. Those are the ones I've seen being efficient.

Bloom Doom Heatran is also a pretty good set that I've both run and seen quite a bit of. Considering Ground or Water is the primary switch into Heatran, and with its already high SpA plus the power of a boosted Solar Beam, it's a set that puts in a lot of work.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Given the speedier threats this gen (looking at you, scarf Pheromosa), what has everyone been doing for speed control? I've tried sticky Web lately, but the best user, Galvantula, isn't great outside of setting up webs. It's also easily countered with defogger and rapid spin.

I was thinking about tailwind, but it's not up for very long, so it's barely worth setting up.

Shuckle is a much better and more consistent setter of webs, and can also set stealth rock.

Webs aren't bad this gen, but it's a really match-up based. There's also not a whole of flexibility in a webs team since the require so many roles: you need Shuckle, you need a defiant mon (Z-Fly thundy is the best,) you need a spinblocker, you need a solid answer to common flying/levitating types and mega metagross (until you can force it out, then it will be affected by webs,) you need a consistent way to beat stall since shuckle is a wasted slot against it, etc.

I made an okay team with it and I think it has some potential, but it's pretty niche.

 

[GH[O]ST]

The easiest way, in my experience as an offense player, to turn the tables on the generic pheromosa + lele offense is to use the extremely underrated Agility Mega-Metagross, which sets up on lele and "countersweeps"

I used an Agility Mega Metagross to prey on all the fat teams and pheromosa+lele offenses running around the suspect ladder to get voting reqs.

all those generic lele+pheromosa offense teams pretty much have no answer for something that hits as hard as a late game +2 speed Adamant Mega-Metagross which outspeeds even scarf Pheromosa. Metagross basically gets a free setup on Lele.

you lose an important coverage move, but it's in exchange for incredible power, potentially unrivaled speed, and increased bulk (I used some HP investment in mine which are clutch with its phenomenal bulk). but Meteor Mash, EQ, and Thunder Punch is excellent coverage already for a late game sweeper anyway.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Given the speedier threats this gen (looking at you, scarf Pheromosa), what has everyone been doing for speed control? I've tried sticky Web lately, but the best user, Galvantula, isn't great outside of setting up webs. It's also easily countered with defogger and rapid spin.

I was thinking about tailwind, but it's not up for very long, so it's barely worth setting up.

Could always try trick room. It's a whole team archetype and a lot of people have made guides or can help you out with it. Turn the opponent's speed against them.

 

[Protoscourge]

Given the speedier threats this gen (looking at you, scarf Pheromosa), what has everyone been doing for speed control? I've tried sticky Web lately, but the best user, Galvantula, isn't great outside of setting up webs. It's also easily countered with defogger and rapid spin.

I was thinking about tailwind, but it's not up for very long, so it's barely worth setting up.

I would argue that sticky web is much better than last generation due to all the speed creep and choice scarfs, and that the best setter is still shuckle. Its all about just fitting the right mons to counter the opponent's hazard removal options. Personally, I have had great success with Gengar and Serperior. I feel Gengar is underrated right now, as ghost stab coming off 130 SpAtk is pretty potent and with sticky web, you can even risk giving it a modest nature to hit really damn hard (which fortunately enough, lets it outspeed scarf tapu lele in sticky web). It also has the benefit of defeating most of the viable rapid spinners and some of the defoggers in the tier, once they get stuck in sticky web. As for Serperior, he's another mon that can benefit from the speed control and capitalize on most defoggers, either by muscling past them or taking the defog for an evasion boost.

Still, it definitely isn't really that viable higher up in the ladder, and it struggles pretty hard against stall, but its definitely enjoyable when pulled off successfully.

As for this comment:

Which makes me wonder why on Earth they aren't being used more, particularly Y who can bring in weather. (Why doesn't Torkoal get Morning Sun...) Mega Charizard X is listed as OU and currently has Viability rank of A rank for what it's worth and Mega Charizard Y got banned from SM UU at light speed so it's not like they're straight up bad now. Heck, the difficulty of keeping Stealth Rocks on the field now Fini as a partner should be a boon for them and Mega Charizard X loves the lack of Slowbro and its Mega form and prominence of Tapu Koko and Mega Scizor while Mega Charizard Y should appreciate the Latis and Keldeo falling out of prominence, Mega Venusaur's ubiquity, and rain teams somewhat declining in singles if Pelipper getting demoted a rank again is anything to go by.

Given the Fairy and Steel dominance situation, it's little wonder Heatran is as good as ever. Being part Steel himself makes up for his lack of recovery in many cases and new access to Bloom Doom makes Water and Ground types far riskier to switch into him and his resistances make him a pain for any Fairy or Steel type that can't fit Ground moves into their set.

EDIT: I just realized that another often forgotten perk Alolan Marowak has over other Fire types is that since it's part Ghost, Dugtrio can't trap it.

I would say that fire types theoretically should be highly valued in the current meta, especially defensive ones, since they can tank hits and immediately threaten back. The problem is always the same thing though: stealth rocks. It just limits your ability to switch to your fire type way too often, and its especially easy to force the opponent into awkward situations where they have to choose to defog and die, or take stealth rock damage. The way i see it: if you are weak to stealth rocks and don't have any recovery, you're not a defensive fire type (let alone generally viable). This leaves Heatran, Charizard-x, and maybe Infernape and Arcanine, if you're willing to dedicate your team that far. Alola-wak is a rare case where its other immunities make up for its weaknesses, but even then its already dropping in viability.

Offensive fire types on the other hand are nice since that weakness doesn't matter too much, but stealth rocks still craps on your ability to setup sometimes and it restricts your team-building, which in turn makes fire types in general somewhat unappealing to use, despite how good they would be otherwise right now.

 

[GaRgAnt]

I would argue that sticky web is much better than last generation due to all the speed creep and choice scarfs, and that the best setter is still shuckle.

I've been seeing the opposite, really. Starmie really doesn't have a place right now, sand teams seem subpar and uncommon for some odd reason so Sand Rush Excadrill isn't nearly as common as I think it should be, and the Tapus not named Koko are pretty manageable. In fact, I think this generation has been about resistances and immunities instead of speed; I mean, I guess there's Ash Greninja, but I think that's more of a case of massive special attack combined with two great STABs.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

252 Atk burned Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 132-156 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

What if we ran will-o wisp on heatran with Tapu bulu? You could still use Leftovers/bloom doom instead of shed shell

Bulu isn't awful vs stall either with heatran suckling up all the burns

 

[Golgi Body]

How is stall currently dealing with stallbreaker Tapu Fini? I'm enjoying stall for the first time this generation, but Tapu Fini is both annoying to stall and common on the ladder. I'm running a Zapdos on my current team, but the most it can usually do is just scare it out with the threat of a discharge. It can't be statused, MSableye takes upwards of 70% from an uninvested moonblast, and Dugtrio fails to 2HKO without prior damage, so can't really trap it.

set

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe (or even worse, a bulkier spread)
Timid
- Moonblast
- Taunt
- Nature's Madness / Haze
- Defog

 

[TimG57867]

I would say that fire types theoretically should be highly valued in the current meta, especially defensive ones, since they can tank hits and immediately threaten back. The problem is always the same thing though: stealth rocks. It just limits your ability to switch to your fire type way too often, and its especially easy to force the opponent into awkward situations where they have to choose to defog and die, or take stealth rock damage. The way i see it: if you are weak to stealth rocks and don't have any recovery, you're not a defensive fire type (let alone generally viable). This leaves Heatran, Charizard-x, and maybe Infernape and Arcanine, if you're willing to dedicate your team that far. Alola-wak is a rare case where its other immunities make up for its weaknesses, but even then its already dropping in viability.

Offensive fire types on the other hand are nice since that weakness doesn't matter too much, but stealth rocks still craps on your ability to setup sometimes and it restricts your team-building, which in turn makes fire types in general somewhat unappealing to use, despite how good they would be otherwise right now.

All those issues you point out are true which is exactly why I questioned the odd lack of MegaZard on the ladder since they can both use Roost. Although from what I've seen over the past few days, things might be changing. I am starting to see more Charizard in high ladder being used to good effect so it might be a sign that Zards are finally shaping themselves up to be the goto Fire types for the current meta. Heck Volcarona seems to putting in work too as while the Stealth Rock weakness is still ghastly, its Quiver Dance sets are proving to be pretty anti-meta at the moment.

But as far defensive Fire types go, it is a sad situation. When you think about, Heatran is probably the only good defensive Fire type Game Freak has ever made that's feasible to use in regular play and it doesn't even have instant recovery! Marowak is trying but it just doesn't have the raw bulk Heatran has to compensate for a lack of recovery moves. That does make me wonder though. Is Wish support for Alolan Wak viable/worth it?

 

[ssjjynx]

How is stall currently dealing with stallbreaker Tapu Fini? I'm enjoying stall for the first time this generation, but Tapu Fini is both annoying to stall and common on the ladder. I'm running a Zapdos on my current team, but the most it can usually do is just scare it out with the threat of a discharge. It can't be statused, MSableye takes upwards of 70% from an uninvested moonblast, and Dugtrio fails to 2HKO without prior damage, so can't really trap it.

set

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe (or even worse, a bulkier spread)
Timid
- Moonblast
- Taunt
- Nature's Madness / Haze
- Defog

The most stall can really do is run a shedinja or a tapu fini of your own, if you have a zapdos then you just have to keep your hazards up and bring your zapdos in when you predict their switch to fini. Stall traditionally allows you to play without having to make any predictions or plays, but if your opponent has fini you really don't have much else of a choice, which is why it is such a potent stallbreaker. For teams lacking shedinja, zapdos, or their own fini, a little series of plays that I have found usually works is bringing chansey in on tapu fini, then doubling to mega sab on the taunt so that the taunt gets bounced to the fini, and then bringing chansey back in on the taunted fini, as it now only needs to fear nature's madness (although nature's madness is still annoying af, and this series of plays usually won't work multiple times). You could also run Amoongus, though I personally don't like amoongus on stall as the only jobs it has that aren't already done by the rest of the team are beating fini and getting off spore, all the pokemon it walls are already walled by any well-constructed stall team, although if fini is a large enough concern then running amoongus can work well enough.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Wak has an amazing defensive type but if You made a defensive wish set I think he'd be complete fodder vs stall and anything that can boost. It could be a really solid pivot yeah but other than getting rocks/burns it just seems kind of meh stat wise. But having reliable non trappable rocks is awesome

If only it got like haze

 

[psVoltage]

How would tailwind Charizard y be? It's kinda a theorymon but it could be used as a cleaner that's very anti offence.

proposed set

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Earthquake

It outspeeds choice jolly/ modest pheromosa by 1 point. HP is to help setup and to tank hits better from resists. Earthquake is strictly for heatran as it's the main Mon that walls you, also can hit wak on the switch to weaken it. Sadly if you want to outspeed pheromosa you have to run timid as Charizard only reaches 299 speed with modest. Not sure if this kind of post is allowed or not but it seems like a neat Mon.

 

[Leo]

How would tailwind Charizard y be? It's kinda a theorymon but it could be used as a cleaner that's very anti offence.

proposed set

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Earthquake

It outspeeds choice jolly/ modest pheromosa by 1 point. HP is to help setup and to tank hits better from resists. Earthquake is strictly for heatran as it's the main Mon that walls you, also can hit wak on the switch to weaken it. Sadly if you want to outspeed pheromosa you have to run timid as Charizard only reaches 299 speed with modest. Not sure if this kind of post is allowed or not but it seems like a neat Mon.

I've been using Zard Y a lot lately and I think Roost is mandatory on Zard. It just finds so many opportunities to Roost with Tapu Fini and fat Steels everywhere that running anything over it doesn't seem worth it. However, I think this set could work with Tailwind>EQ paired with a Duggy. Duggy is a rly good partner for zard-y because it traps chansey toxapex and heatran (and ttar but nobody uses that anymore). This makes Zard better against offense because Offense teams usually rely on sacking and rkilling to remove Zard, which can be exploited. I've actually tried Flame Charge and it worked ok but I think this could work better as a surprise late game cleaner since you don't really need more than 4 turns unless your opponent outplays you 4 times in a row.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Dugtrio loses to Chansey if it runs toxic

 

[Leo]

Dugtrio loses to Chansey if it runs toxic

No it doesn't

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. -4 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 553-652 (86.1 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO you just need a bit of prior damage and it dies. Even without prior damage it will be too low to take any hit at all and will end up being death fodder

 

[piikachuu]

at a glance that calc is horribly wrong, pretty sure duggy eq doesnt do more than 30% to chansey. how did you even get a -4 in the calc?

edit: here's the actual calc: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 181-214 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

double edit: that makes a lot more sense @below, my bad!

 

[Colonial]

at a glance that calc is horribly wrong, pretty sure duggy eq doesnt do more than 30% to chansey. how did you even get a -4 in the calc?

edit: here's the actual calc: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 181-214 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

I believe they were thinking about Screech Dugtrio. I'm not familiar with whether or not that's a legit/common set, but it works here. Chansey 3HKOs Dugtrio with Seismic Toss, so you could use Screech twice and EQ after.