Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 181-214 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

I've trapped chansey a few times I think that You're using screech??? like reversal isn't good enough either why I say toxic beats dugtrio


252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 482-568 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

screech can beat chansey but still I rather just set rocks before I bust my sash taking out my last free kill

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. -2 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-430 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I really forgot screech was important last gen.


I just now hit 43 on the ladder with Shednija stall, I'm not really sold on dugtrio being broken just yet, I think some of the unreleased megas might knock him down a peg on speed tiering issues and when You realize tapu bulu makes E-quake simply to weak for 5 turns and You could put wisp on heatran to put the final nail into dugtrio switch in coffin if You still want to run leftovers/bloom doom. Stall vs stall i'm basically winning by raw PP draining with pressure zapados, ditto Coping Mega Sableye and shednija dry passing. Stall is brutal tho without a doubt

so hype rank 33

 

[Leo]

I believe they were thinking about Screech Dugtrio. I'm not familiar with whether or not that's a legit/common set, but it works here. Chansey 3HKOs Dugtrio with Seismic Toss, so you could use Screech twice and EQ after.

Yeah Screech Dugtrio is actually the best set (you can check out its analysis if you want) and it allows you to trap Chanseys Clefables and other fat mons that take less than 50% from EQ and could beat you 1v1 with Softboiled+attack

 

[Lumeneko]

But now we have alolan dugtrio. Would Alolan Dugtrio be a better option or not? Ground/Steel seems like a better typing because you don't get poisoned when you switch into toxic spikes. Personally, I don't think not setting up rocks with Dugtrio is a good idea. The reason why I sometimes use Dugtrio is for its speed combined with access to stealth rock.

 

[Zebstrika]

Alolon Dugtrio doesn't have Arena Trap.

 

[Leo]

But now we have alolan dugtrio. Would Alolan Dugtrio be a better option or not? Ground/Steel seems like a better typing because you don't get poisoned when you switch into toxic spikes. Personally, I don't think not setting up rocks with Dugtrio is a good idea. The reason why I sometimes use Dugtrio is for its speed combined with access to stealth rock.

Alolan Dugtrio is outclassed by regular Dugtrio because it loses Arena Trap. While Rocks are a nice addition to Dugtrio I don't really like it as a rocker because it's so frail that setting up rocks against anything will get it down to its Sash and sometimes it can't trap stuff anymore which should be the only reason why you use Duggy (That's its only niche as far as I know)
Edit: I also run Stone Edge on Duggy for Volc and rkilling Zard-Y (at least scaring it out or sometimes even luring) and most of the time Edge will be more useful than having Rocks (You need Eq+Reversal+Screech to effectively trap)

 

[Twilightphoenix10]

So I'm surprised at the lack of sand teams, or any weather team for that matter, so is anyone else surprised by this?
I mean I know that terrain wars are a thing because of the tapus, but weather has always been relavent and it seems odd that it has fallen out of favor.

 

[psVoltage]

So I'm surprised at the lack of sand teams, or any weather team for that matter, so is anyone else surprised by this?
I mean I know that terrain wars are a thing because of the tapus, but weather has always been relavent and it seems odd that it has fallen out of favor.

I'm surprised by the lack of sand when corkscrew crash Excadrill mows though alot of the relevant threats with ease.

 

[GaRgAnt]

I'm surprised by the lack of sand when corkscrew crash Excadrill mows though alot of the relevant threats with ease.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like sand is weaker this generation because (A) there are more viable weather setters in OU (Alolatails and Pelipper) to contend with, (B) Tapu Bulu bashes the living fuck out of even Hippowdon and Tyranitar, two Pokemon that are primary sand-setters and physically bulky but have Grass weaknesses, and (C) stall being so goddamn popular. A +2 Rock Slide won't even 3HKO physical variants before Skarmory Whirlwinds you away. Oh and the sand setters don't usually have the luxury of running Hard Rock for extended sandstorms- Tyranitar probably wants a Band or Assault Vest for the bluff, and Hippowdon really, really likes Leftovers.

Oh and I think you still need a Life Orb most of the time on SD Excadrill because you can't come close to guaranteeing the OHKO on Chansey (Even without Stealth Rock- +2 252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 489-576 (76.1 - 89.7%) is without life orb, you get a minimum of 99% with a Life Orb) without one, specifically because fuck Mega Sableye. (A +2 Iron Head is already overkill for the threats that didn't resist steel anyways, Tapu Bulu took an average of 200% damage from it and Skarmory doesn't take shit from you anyways)

 

[Jojobobo]

So I was going to do a whole dedicated thread as a Trick Room guide for this, but when I asked for approval I was told that threads dedicated to particular playstyles aren't currently desirable as they tend to burn themselves out quickly. I guess I should have really checked before I wrote the thing!

I asked Celticpride if I could post it here instead, and he said it was okay. I'll link the post in my sig so it can act as touch stone for the style, and hopefully prompt more discussion about Trick Room in this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Without further ado, here it is...

What is Trick Room?

Trick Room is a status move which lasts for 5 turns and causes the slowest Pokémon in a given priority bracket to go first. Under Trick Room moves in higher priority brackets still go first (e.g. Quick Attack in the +1 bracket), however if two Pokémon use a priority move in the same bracket then the slowest Pokémon then goes first (e.g. an Azumarill Aqua Jet will go before a Mega Pinsir Quick Attack).

Trick Room has the lowest priority bracket in the game (-7), making it go last in a turn. The turn in which Trick Room is set counts as one of the 5 turns it lasts for, giving you 4 turns to make use of it after that initial turn.

Playstyle overview

Borrowing a little from UBERPYRO’s description last gen, a Trick Room team is made TR setters and TR abusers – usually with three or four setters and the rest abusers. Trick Room normally plays somewhere between Bulky Offense (BO) and Hyper Offense (HO). Some setters carry suicide moves in the style of HO (e.g. Explosion, Self-Destruct, Memento, Healing Wish, Lunar Dance, Final Gambit, Destiny Bond and to a lesser extent ghost-type Curse) or fast pivot moves that work slowly under TR (Whimsicott or Mew U-turn) to get an abuser in without taking a hit, other setters in the style of BO have attacking moves themselves to abuse TR and defensive synergy with other abusers to ensure a minimally damaging manual switch.

In practice a combination of HO and BO style setters is usually best, as it provides options to both make sensible manual switches and to heavily nerf the enemy when the need arises. Hazard support on TR teams, like all offensive teams, is advisable to break sashes and sturdies as well as weaken the enemy and discourage switching. Hazard removal however is not always necessary as TR teams usually provide enough offensive pressure to prevent elaborate hazard-stacking, and don’t use manual switching often enough to accumulate much damage.

In terms of the TR-abusers, what you're looking for are Pokémon with widely applicable coverage ensuring they hit much of the meta hard. Strong setup moves, like Nasty Plot and Swords Dance, can be used if you're confident you can force a switch when you come in (made easier by moves like Memento) and if you think the boost makes you better able to take down some walls – but a good abuser shouldn’t rely on a boost to be effective. Abusers with four attacking moves are fine, so long as their STABs and coverage attacks are particularly tricky to wall and you feel up to the challenge of effective prediction.

How "fast" can a TR-setter or abuser be?

A common misnomer with the TR teams is that all abusers and setters have to be very slow. In reality, often Pokémon with base 100 speed or lower are fine so long as you're familiar with the speed tier you expect them to operate at. For a speed comparison example, a min-speed base 100 Mew will be slower than fully invested low base speed Pokémon (base 45s and even lower like fast Alolan-Marowak sets) but will still be faster than uninvested base 70s. What this means is you can pitch a Pokémon to outpace and break stall and to have a strong revenge hit against slower utility mons like Ferrothorn or Toxapex, while at the same time it will be slower than fast offense threats and so can still make effective use of the speed reversal of Trick Room.

As a rule of thumb, I take 179 speed to be that which out-speeds Pokémon on stall (apart from fast trappers like Dugtrio) as it’s enough to out-speed 8 Spe invested Skarmory (which would be a Skarmory trying to speed creep the speed-creeping 4 Spe invested Skarmories). In practice, again a combination of very slow TR-abuser wallbreakers with one mid-speed TR stallbreaker can often be more effective than a team made up of entirely slow Pokémon.

What mechanics changed from gen VI to VII to benefit Trick Room?

This is more background if you're interested, hence the hide tags…

Hide

The biggest change this gen was of course the introduction of Terrain auto-setters and Psychic Terrain, all of which play into most of the categories below.

Priority got a large nerf. Going from last gen, much of the strong priority that was a hindrance to both TR setters and abusers is now not near effective as it once was. Gale Wings now only works on Talonflame when it is at full health, making it an almost useless ability due to hazards and its strongest STAB being Brave Bird with recoil. Sucker Punch got a base power drop from 80 to 70, and is less spammable with the introduction of strong fairies to the tier. Aerilate (as well as the other "-ate" abilities) got their power multiplier changed from x1.3 to x1.2, weakening Mega Pinsir’s Quick Attack. To cap it all, Psychic Terrain now stops priority entirely for a few turns, meaning opponents can't mindlessly spam it like the used to.

This now means that TR teams can operate without fear of priority that was frankly a little insane. Even if Lele during the course of gen VII received a ban, the Gale Wings, Sucker Punch and Aerilate nerfs should make things easier for TR teams than was the case previously.

Status ailments are now less prevalent. All status last gen was a problem for TR teams, as a Cleric move outside of Healing Wish is hard to place on a TR team considering one move every setter has to have is TR - turning 4MSS into 3MSS. Sleep in particular was a huge issue, as due to the -7 priority bracket of Trick Room any mon with Spore could always put a setter to sleep before it could set Trick Room – barring grass-type setters, Pokémon with a handful of sleep-preventing abilities and Safety Goggles users.

Misty Terrain from Tapu Fini has seen usage of status ailment moves drop substantially, while Electric Terrain from Tapu Koko when added to Misty Terrain has effectively been the death-knell of most sleep moves. Couple this to Psychic Terrain preventing Prankster status like T-Wave from Thundurus-I (which always ran the risk of wasting an abuser's turns) and you have a situation where TR teams can setup much more freely.

Megas now use the Mega-evolution's speed on the turn they Mega Evolve. While this is currently perhaps only relevant to Absol with the other Megas being unreleased, last gen was a huge pain for Megas using Fake-Out and Protect to safely Mega Evolve and stall a turn – with TR turns being extremely precious to a TR team. Hopefully, when/if things like Loppunite and Beedrillite get a release, these Megas will now run coverage instead of stalling a turn, removing this headache for TR teams.

Paralysis got a nerf. Paralysis now only halves, rather quarters, a Pokémon's speed. This has indirectly seen a drop in usage of certain Pokémon like Clefable. To me, Clefable was the scourge of Trick Room last gen, as both Unaware and Magic Guard sets saw usage and you couldn't happily setup a physical TR-abuser without knowing what your opponent was running at the risk of potentially wasting a turn and trashing your momentum as you switch out. Additionally, Clefable had Flamethrower and Fireblast, making attempts to get through both Unaware and the bulky defences with STAB steel moves difficult to manage. Trick Room now operates much better without the nasty little bottleneck that Clefable used to put on it.

Z-moves are now a thing. Z-attacking moves now provide a substantial boost to damage, allowing Pokémon to run surprise coverage to get past their checks and counters or to turn a STAB into a nuke. Additionally, some Z-status moves are now very interesting, with Z-Memento effectively combining regular Memento and the full HP heal (but not the status heal) of Healing Wish or Lunar Dance. As Trick Room setters and abusers don’t always have a particular need for items (LO compromises bulk, Choice Bands and Specs limit coverage, etc.) one or perhaps even more Z-moves can be fitted onto a team to provide you with plenty of options. Though only one Z-move can be used per match, some matches you might appreciate the clutch of Z-Memento while in others a Z-nuke may be preferred – running two, so long as the base Pokémon are reliant on the Z-move to function, can work for TR where on other teams it wouldn't.

The new TR-setters

This gen dropped some great new setters for TR abuse, let’s have a look at them shall we?

Magearna

Magearna is this gen's queen of TR setters, with a great defensive typing that has only two weaknesses, substantial defences, a pivot move, the ability to boost its own SpAtk through KOes and a huge STAB nuke. Whereas a sizeable portion of TR setters are weak to a combination of ghost, dark and bug moves due their often ghost or psychic typing, Magearna has resistances to two of those three making it fit hand in glove when designing a complementary setter core. In terms of items, two of the best for Magearna in my opinion would be an Air Balloon to give it a temporary immunity to Ground type attacks effectively giving it only one weakness, or Fairium-Z to turn Fleur Cannon into a 195 BP face-melting move that doesn’t lower your attack after its use on that turn – granting you the Soul-Heart boost if you KO.

Example Set

Magearna @ Fairium Z / Air Balloon
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt / Aura Sphere / Shadow Ball

Mimikyu

Mimikyu is an ace in the hole for TR this gen, with Disguise almost guaranteeing you set up Trick Room – especially if you combine it with a Mental Herb. By having Mimikyu on your team as a setter, it means regardless of how play has gone so far there's always going to be a point in the match where you can risk-free set TR and thereby destroy your opponent's momentum, which is a uniquely useful trait in a TR setter and makes it a great foil to most setup sweepers.

For the sets it can run, you can make it offensive with Play Rough and/or Shadow Claw or you can use the set as more of an annoyer. Destiny Bond can be used as a HO suicide style move, and Curse can also be used similarly if you're confident your opponent will get you below 50% HP with an attack on the turn after they break your Disguise and you’ve set TR. Curse also provides counter-play to setup sweepers and substitute users, putting them on a timer and forcing them to switch out. Will-o-Wisp can be used to hinder an opponent's attack, but the accuracy can be a letdown.

The set below combines Curse with LO Shadow Claw and Play Rough, with the STABs allowing for a late game clean of a weakened team and the LO recoil more easily allowing for suicide with Curse after taking an attack – which is more reliable as it never wastes a turn in the same way that Destiny Bond can do.

Example Set

Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Play Rough
- Curse

Necrozma

Necrozma is a new bulky TR setter for this gen, and while it doesn't offer much that's exciting it can set SR and hit reasonably hard while at the same time being hard to KO due to Prism Armor. Prism Armor effectively makes non-STAB SE coverage deal the same as STAB coverage, so what is interesting and perhaps players don't realise is that for a high BP STAB move it'll do more damage than the SE coverage. A good example of this is Lando-T, whose EQ will do more damage than U-turn or Knock Off.

I think a fun set for it is using Psychium-Z, making Prismatic Laser a 200 BP one-time nuke lacking the recharge and also heavily nerfing non-STAB Knock Off damage. As the recharge only happens after the move has been used, if an opponent has two mons left you can potentially take them both out with a Z-Prismatic Laser and then a regular Prismatic Later to clean - giving it utility throughout a match.

Example Set

Necrozma @ Psychium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Prismatic Laser
- Toxic / Psychic / Morning Sun
- Stealth Rock

Other new setters

There are two other setters this gen which can work. Alolan Exeggutor has an interesting typing and good mixed attacking stats. Oranguru also has an interesting typing that makes it ghost immune, but outside of Nasty Plot and a low speed tier it's generally outclassed by Meloetta for TR. Other new setters (Bruxish, Comfey, Nihilego) are all fast with thin defences, not what you want for TR.

Older gen setters

Many of the TR setters from previous gens are still great. Listing them in no particular order with a brief mention of their advantages, you have:

Hide

Uxie (Memento, SR setting)

Diancie (SR setting, Explosion)

Slowking (Regenerator or Oblivious, Nasty Plot)

Porygon2 (Eviolite bulk, Trace or Download, lacks common setter weaknesses)

Bronzong (SR setting, Explosion)

Victini (V-Create nuker, Final Gambit, fast U-turn)

Cofagrigus (Mummy, Nasty Plot, Memento)

Reuniclus (Magic Guard)

Meloetta (Good typing, fast U-turn, STAB Hyper Voice for subs)

Whimsicott (Memento, Prankster, fast U-turn)

Mew (SR setting, fast U-turn, large variety of options)

Cresselia (Lunar Dance)

Dusclops (Eviolite bulk, Memento)

Jirachi (SR setting, Healing Wish, fast U-turn)

The new TR-abusers

As with the setters, there are also some new stand-out abusers. To highlight a few examples out of the many possibilities, here we go:

Marowak-Alola

Marowak-A is an amazing TR wallbreaker, with two hugely spammable STABs in Flare Blitz and Shadow Bone (the former lacking recoil due to Rock Head, the latter not making contact which is very useful), as well as ground coverage which means it can hit any steel type Pokémon in the game for super effective damage. When you cap that with an effective 209 base Attack using Thick Club, an immunity to burns and the fact that it can use Swords Dance to OHKO defensive walls like Lando-T after rocks you begin to see what a terrifying little package this monster is.

Example Set

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone
- Earthquake / Bonemerang

Tapu Bulu

Tapu Bulu is a powerful mon for Trick Room, with Grassy Terrain simultaneously hugely boosting its grass STAB as well as providing passive healing for Bulu and the whole bulky team once it switches out if no Terrain replaces it. With the ability to heal easily with Horn Leech, a LO can be used to boost its grass attacks through the stratosphere after a Swords Dance as well as empowering its coverage options.

Example Set

Tapu Bulu @ Life Orb / Terrain Extender / Meadow Plate
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance / Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Stone Edge / Zen Headbutt

Xurkitree

While Xurkitree is a little outclassed as a special wallbreaker and stallbreaker by Lele, Lele gets a lot of attention so I thought I'd show the electric tree some love. Though Xurkitree's bulk is average, the main selling point here is its colossal SpAtk easily boosted with Tail Glow and increasing on every KO due to Beast Boost. Xurkitree has just the right coverage to give most of the meta a headache, and can run enough speed IVs to just outpace stall as I mentioned above. In terms of an item, Shed Shell can be used to escape Dugtrio’s evil clutches while a Zap Plate makes your Thunderbolt hit like a train after Tail Glow often 2HKOing Chansey. Iron Ball can also be used if stallbreaking isn't a concern to ruin your opponent's day when you’re randomly slower than them.

Example Set

Xurkitree @ Zap Plate / Shed Shell
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 8 Spe or 11 Spe for HP Ice
- Tail Glow
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball / Grass Knot
- Dazzling Gleam / Hidden Power Ice

Other abusers

For the current gen there's obviously more new abusers that are excellent. Tapu Lele is great as a wall-breaker and stall-breaker, and Buzzwole is great at spamming super effective coverage or possibly running Z-Bulk Up. Vikavolt and Bewear seem like they'd also be a lot of fun. For the previous generations, there’s so many good options it’d be insane to list them all – use your imagination!

Item guide

A short item guide just to list a few items of interest to Trick Room…

Mental Herb – Cures Taunt and other annoying volatile conditions, allowing you to set Trick Room in the face of a Taunter. Can be useful, particularly on a lead setter.

Iron Ball – Halves the speed of Pokémon while making them grounded. This can be used to make fast Pokémon viable for Trick Room, and confuse your opponent by having a speed tier that shouldn't exist.

Damage neutralizing berries – Ideally when Pokémon have few weaknesses, berries can be used to halve SE effective damage for one of those weaknesses and so give you an ace in the hole to move past a check or a counter. It's not something an opponent can prepare for, so it's easy to catch them off-guard.

Z-stones – As mentioned earlier, Z-stones can now be used to give you huge boost to a coverage or STAB move. This can be useful if you don't have an opportunity to comfortably set a boosting move on an abuser like Nasty Plot or Swords Dance.

Standard items like LO, Expert Belt, Muscle Band, Wise Glasses, Choice Specs/Bands and the Plates can all be used to boost power if you need it, just be wary of their limitations.

Threats

While threats change gen-by-gen, some threats will always remain. Here's a rundown of what to lookout for:

Lando-T – Lando is worthy of a whole category to himself. As meta glue he is still everywhere, and the bulky defensive lead/pivot set is a big problem for TR teams due to the standard coverage of Knock Off/U-turn/Earthquake, with Knock Off and U-turn exploiting psychic and ghost type setters' weaknesses (and removing Eviolite off Porygon2) as well as EQ hitting Magearna hard. Bottom line, you need setters that can take hits from Lando-T and not be 2HKOed, and preferably an abuser or two that doesn't fear him.

Stall – Stall is slow and bulky, causing problems for TR teams as they're susceptible to status if they're slower than stall and have a hard time breaking through a member in the short amount of turns TR provides. A faster stall-breaker as previously mentioned can help to overcome this problem.

Substitute users – Pokémon like SubCoil Zygarde or SubPunch Buzzwole can ruin your day, as Taunt is almost pointless for a TR team to carry because you're never fast enough to use it effectively. Multi-hitting moves, sound-based moves, Hyperspace Hole/Fury in addition to moves like Curse can often be used to check substitute users.

Other slow Pokémon – Slow common Pokémon like Ferrothorn can be a thorn (hey) in your side. Having a weakness to one of these Pokémon that will be slower than most of what your Trick Room team has to offer is problematic, so make sure your faster abusers aren't afraid of the few slower Pokémon that are common on the tier.

And there we have it!

That's my guide to Trick Room this gen, and hopefully it'll generate more TR dialogue going forward in this thread and elsewhere as a viable playstyle in addition to charting how it's changed from last gen. If there’s anything very important you don't think I've discussed or put a fine point on, or some horrible grammatically error that you just can't let slide, let me know and I'll edit the post (the text has gone mental several times from importing it from Word). Hope you enjoyed!

 

[Dragontamer]

So.... Moltres apparently gets Burn Up. I've experimented with Scarf Moltres in the past, but the 4x Stealth Rocks weakness is just... such a hassle to deal with. But Bulky Talonflame pulled it off last generation (priority Roost + Bulk Up helped), so its not strictly impossible. Still, Moltres's opportunity for Burn Up means it can turn into a mono-Flying type after nuking a Pokemon, and further "nukes" may be 33% weaker (loss of STAB and all), but that's still stronger than the 2nd or 3rd hits of "Overheat" (which are at 50% weaker and 66% weaker respectively). Burn up is also 100% accurate, so no miss-issues (85% Fire Blast or 90% Overheat misses suck). Volcarona seems like a superior Pokemon though every time I look at it.

The main "niche" in theory would be using Moltres as an end-game cleaner, nuking the last members of the opponent's team with Burn Up (followed by non-STAB Burn Up). Timid 90 Speed is fast enough to outrun Pheromosa. Moltres also has quite respectable bulk on both Physical and Sp. Def, so it wouldn't be afraid of switching into some hits.

Whether this means "Scarf" or "Agility"... I dunno. I'm just sorta theory-moning here and looking out if anybody with more experience can discuss their thoughts. On paper, it seems like Volcarona does everything better than Moltres, aside from switching into Earthquake. Burn Up intrigues me however.

My hypothetical set would be:

Scarf Moltres
Timid 252+ Speed / 252 Sp. Atk
----------
Burn Up
Air Slash / Hurricane
U-Turn
Will-o-Wisp

Just to give an idea of what I'm thinking of. All theorymon here. They do seem inferior to Volcarona, but I feel like the sets would be useful for discussion nonetheless.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

So.... Moltres apparently gets Burn Up. I've experimented with Scarf Moltres in the past, but the 4x Stealth Rocks weakness is just... such a hassle to deal with. But Bulky Talonflame pulled it off last generation (priority Roost + Bulk Up helped), so its not strictly impossible. Still, Moltres's opportunity for Burn Up means it can turn into a mono-Flying type after nuking a Pokemon, and further "nukes" may be 33% weaker (loss of STAB and all), but that's still stronger than the 2nd or 3rd hits of "Overheat" (which are at 50% weaker and 66% weaker respectively). Burn up is also 100% accurate, so no miss-issues (85% Fire Blast or 90% Overheat misses suck). Volcarona seems like a superior Pokemon though every time I look at it.

The main "niche" in theory would be using Moltres as an end-game cleaner, nuking the last members of the opponent's team with Burn Up (followed by non-STAB Burn Up). Timid 90 Speed is fast enough to outrun Pheromosa. Moltres also has quite respectable bulk on both Physical and Sp. Def, so it wouldn't be afraid of switching into some hits.

Whether this means "Scarf" or "Agility"... I dunno. I'm just sorta theory-moning here and looking out if anybody with more experience can discuss their thoughts. On paper, it seems like Volcarona does everything better than Moltres, aside from switching into Earthquake. Burn Up intrigues me however.

Burn Up fails if the user is not Fire-type.

If you want to use Moltres, isn't not terrible on a rain team (though it certainly requires a lot of support,) specs STAB Hurricane coming off 125 base SpA hits hard and while fire gets nerfed in rain, it's still good against Ferrothorn and other steels.

 

[Dragontamer]

Burn Up fails if the user is not Fire-type.

Hmm, that's an issue. That basically only leaves the "Fire-Z" to get "two nukes off". Or you know... Moltres can use Overheat but otherwise be just completely overshadowed by better `mon.

If you want to use Moltres, isn't not terrible on a rain team (though it certainly requires a lot of support,) specs STAB Hurricane coming off 125 base SpA hits hard and while fire gets nerfed in rain, it's still good against Ferrothorn and other steels.

I guess the Fire-Typing is more relevant vs Steels, but still. I have to imagine that there are better Hurricane Abusers (Tornadus, maybe even Dragonite).

Fire/Flying is a fun type to play around, and Moltres actually makes a good Pivot as long as Stealth Rocks are kept off the field. 90 / 90 / 85 defenses are much better than most people expect, and Fire/Flying has a slew of good resistances: Fairy, Steel, Grass, Ground, Fighting, Bug. A bulky Moltres set (ie: 252 HP) would easily pivot vs Life Orb Pheromosa for example, threaten to KO with Overheat / Air Slash / Burn Up, cripple switch-ins with WoW, Roost off the damage and U-Turn for momentum. Volcarona doesn't have the physical bulk to take a Pheromosa LO HJK like a boss.

Hmmm... 252 / 252 Bold counters Mega-Metagross as long as the Zen Headbutt doesn't flinch. OHKO with Burn Up, Zen-Headbutt 3HKOs at best. Maybe bulky is the way to go? Slow U-turns are always helpful for a team.

So yeah, I do want to find a use for this `mon, but its just really hard. I'd basically have to run a spinner and a defogger to keep the rocks down.

 

[GaRgAnt]

Fire/Flying is a fun type to play around, and Moltres actually makes a good Pivot as long as Stealth Rocks are kept off the field.

You could be a horrible person and run Moltres with Mega Sableye.

 

[Dragontamer]

You could be a horrible person and run Moltres with Mega Sableye.

Lol. At very least, thinking about pairing with Mega-Sableye means that Charizard-Y is off the books. So that's one "why not????" `mon to knock off the list. Also aids in the Stealth Rocks issue of course.

EDIT: In theory, Burn Up makes Moltres win 1v1 vs Tapu Fini. Ash-Greninja and Greninja seem too strong though and beat Moltres even with the lost Fire Typing. So maybe Burn Up would be used on a more defensive-set to remove the Water / Rock weakness (or at least part of it)

 

[snaildelagate]

Ridiculously good long and thorough trick room post

I've lurked for a looooong time but I've been using TR a fair bit in this meta so I think I can generate some dialogue on it. One pokemon I've found really underrated for Trick Room is Torkoal, Torkoal provides a lot of utility and team support for TR teams. Sun passively powers up A-Marowak attacks On a side note: If you are not running Alolan Marowak on your Trick Room team your team isn't viable TBH. It also gets hazard removal which Trick Room teams can normally not afford, heck Trick Room has trouble fitting SR onto a team. With regards to that Necrozma is a godsend this gen its Stealth Rock Cresselia with Solid Rock instead of levitate and supports Magearna and Tapu Bulu better than Bronzong because it stacks weaknesses on a lot of setters. I'm not as big of mimikyu as since TR only lasts 5 turns a TR setter that can set once and die is only useful if you're guaranteed 4 turns of TR and is usually if you're opponent packs a hard counter to one of your sweepers. Its still useful but I don't see it as a must carry on every team, especially if your team lacks an answer to mega scizor. In viable TR teams I think it doesn't offer as much utility as necrozma with a mental herb which guarantees set up just as well as long as the opponent isn't super boosted. I think it should also be mentioned that bulky set up sweepers (especially ones with priority) like mega scizor or Defensive D-nite are the most important things a trick room team needs to counter as they can't simply be stopped by setting up trick room.

Despite getting a bunch of new tools I think TR was just as good in the early XY meta since until the meta normalizes and the viable pokemon rise to the top more people run heavily offensive teams. Trick Room is ultimately an Anti-Meta strategy that prospers in metagames where HO is the dominant playstyle which it usually is early in a metagame's life. Yet Mega Marowak's ability to roll through all teams with a SD may be a sign that TR can sustain its logevity even if the meta becomes less offensive. (especially if mega mawile comes out with pokebank).

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Defensive Moltres might actually be worth looking into. I used to like using it back in early XY for its ability to take on things like Aegislash, Mega Mawile, and Charizard Y, but the problem was always finding a good defensive hazard remover that synergized well with it. Tapu Fini has provided Moltres with a great new teammate that can remove hazards and switch into Waters. As long as you can keep hazards off the field, it can check a lot of big threats depending on its EV investment. Some examples:

Examples

Physically defensive sets can take on Mega Metagross without Thunder Punch (although a lot of them run it). It takes on Celesteela nicely. Heatran can hardly touch it outside of Toxic. With a lot of SpD investment, it can take Magearna's Thunderbolt surprisingly well and can Roost stall it if necessary (Volt Switch does even less), and it switches into its other moves with ease. Buzzwoles lacking Thunder Punch can't do much of anything to it. It isn't really threatened by anything Pheromosa commonly carries. It switches into Mega Scizor all day. It hates Stone Edge, but otherwise, it comes in on Tapu Bulu easily. It also shuts down Zygarde (HA! Not really, I just wanted to see if you were paying attention). As long as it has significant Def investment, it can take A-Marowak's Shadow Bone minus defense drops, which is good because that thing is a pain to switch into sometimes. In fact, it can switch pretty well into a lot of things that can't hit it super effectively with proper EV investment (SpD can handle Mega Alakazam, for example), and of course it still checks things like Charizard Y that it checked last generation.

Could be a decent niche choice on bulky teams that need something to check some of the aforementioned threats while also spreading burns or something. Talonflame might have been the bird to go to for such a job, but with the Gale Wings nerf, that competition isn't there anymore. Defensive Moltres certainly looks more viable now than it was late last generation given how good Tapu Fini is. Just slot in a sturdy Grass or Ground to help cover the Electric and Rock weaknesses.

 

[TURBODERP]

Defensive Moltres might actually be worth looking into. I used to like using it back in early XY for its ability to take on things like Aegislash, Mega Mawile, and Charizard Y, but the problem was always finding a good defensive hazard remover that synergized well with it. Tapu Fini has provided Moltres with a great new teammate that can remove hazards and switch into Waters. As long as you can keep hazards off the field, it can check a lot of big threats depending on its EV investment. Some examples:

Examples

Physically defensive sets can take on Mega Metagross without Thunder Punch (although a lot of them run it). It takes on Celesteela nicely. Heatran can hardly touch it outside of Toxic. With a lot of SpD investment, it can take Magearna's Thunderbolt surprisingly well and can Roost stall it if necessary (Volt Switch does even less), and it switches into its other moves with ease. Buzzwoles lacking Thunder Punch can't do much of anything to it. It isn't really threatened by anything Pheromosa commonly carries. It switches into Mega Scizor all day. It hates Stone Edge, but otherwise, it comes in on Tapu Bulu easily. It also shuts down Zygarde (HA! Not really, I just wanted to see if you were paying attention). As long as it has significant Def investment, it can take A-Marowak's Shadow Bone minus defense drops, which is good because that thing is a pain to switch into sometimes. In fact, it can switch pretty well into a lot of things that can't hit it super effectively with proper EV investment (SpD can handle Mega Alakazam, for example), and of course it still checks things like Charizard Y that it checked last generation.

Could be a decent niche choice on bulky teams that need something to check some of the aforementioned threats while also spreading burns or something. Talonflame might have been the bird to go to for such a job, but with the Gale Wings nerf, that competition isn't there anymore. Defensive Moltres certainly looks more viable now than it was late last generation given how good Tapu Fini is. Just slot in a sturdy Grass or Ground to help cover the Electric and Rock weaknesses.

On that note...why not use SpDef Excadrill as a teammate? Sets up rocks, spins em away, lets Moltres go PhysDef/Mixed to beat Phermosa and A-Marowak and some Mega Metagross, and is immune to Electric/resists Rock. Shared Water weakness is very unforunate, but I feel like it could work.

 

[Dragontamer]

On that note...why not use SpDef Excadrill as a teammate? Sets up rocks, spins em away, lets Moltres go PhysDef/Mixed to beat Phermosa and A-Marowak and some Mega Metagross, and is immune to Electric/resists Rock. Shared Water weakness is very unforunate, but I feel like it could work.

Its basically impossible to find perfect synergy (Gen4 Celebi / Heatran, before the Steel-nerf was pretty much the last perfect pair).

Excadrill has rapid spin, 4x rock resist and immunity to electric. Aside from the shared water weakness (which can be mitigated with Moltres's Burn Up)... that's a hell of a lot of synergy. Moltres tanks the Fire, Fighting, and Ground attacks at Excadrill. Excadrill takes Electric and Rock while keeping the rocks down.

With Fini as the defensive partner protecting both from Water attacks, things start to look like a rather good defensive core.

The other three Pokemon on the team will either create balance.... or maybe even tilt towards full on stall (ex: Sableye, Dugtrio and Ferrothorn ??)

 

[Flexxen]

Here is some of the stuff I've been using that did really well in the current metagame for me and is not that common/standard yet. Feel free to leave your thoughts on this even if you think these sets are bad ;-)

Heatran @ Grassium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Stealth Rock / Earth Power / Taunt

HP Ice is really good on offensive Heatran, Lando-T is on almost every team, Zygarde and Garchomp are fairly common switch-ins to Tran and threats like Flyium Z DD Mence may even attempt to set up on Heatran because they don't expect it to carry a move that hurts them and the threat of EQ. Fire/Grass/Ice coverage in general is amazing right now against many defensive backbones, especially the common Lando/Fini/Steel ones. The threat of getting your Fini trapped and KO'd by Bloom Doom is also something that can make players resort to using Lando-T to force out Heatran and HP Ice does 82% min to defensive Lando, which is a range Lando is pretty easy to get at.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankoususpecttest-508444074 --> just to showcase the set :]

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Bone
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake

The consensus on Rock Head over Lightning Rod seems to be that this set is just flat out worse but I personally think Rock Head is worth using over Lightning Rod if you're using A-Marowak as your dedicated breaker. bludz already made a post in the viability rankings thread here (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3590726/page-5#post-7182220) regarding this and I completely agree.
Marowak always felt like a rather shaky Electric check to me anyways, especially since U-turn became very common on Tapu Koko, which usually results in power-houses like Ash-Gren coming in after your switch to Marowak because its weaknesses are pretty easy to exploit.
However, the ability to abuse something as powerful as Flare Blitz without any drawback is something that shouldn't be underestimated, especially against defensive teams. The current common stall builds I've seen just get ript apart by this SD Marowak since Dugtrio can't trap it and everything else falls over.

E: @below: I only put enough speed for Clef but also wanted to have some bulk to better take on stuff like Pheromosa. More investment to outspeed Skarm is probably better though even if Brave Bird doesn't do that much.

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 228 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Pursuit
- U-turn
- Roost

Pursuit M-Scizor is also something that's really good and underutilized right now. M-Metagross usage is probably at an all-time high at the moment and M-Scizor is easily its best counter right now. With Pursuit Scizor can do more than just wall Metagross, it can also trap it and weaken or kill it so teammates like Scarf Lele or Nihilego have an easier time cleaning late game. Tapu Lele is also something Scizor can potentially trap but there is ofc the threat of HP Fire and Lele's high damage output, which usually forces the Roost if Scizor wants to switch into a Psychic again. However, it can finish off a weakened Lele attempting to switch out, which is something at least.
This set also has some really nice synergy with the Marowak set above against stall teams because Dugtrio (and Shedinja, I guess), the only thing on stall capable of dealing with Marowak, can just get trapped itself, which is pretty funny if you ask me :P

 

[Jojobobo]

I've lurked for a looooong time but I've been using TR a fair bit in this meta so I think I can generate some dialogue on it. One pokemon I've found really underrated for Trick Room is Torkoal, Torkoal provides a lot of utility and team support for TR teams. Sun passively powers up A-Marowak attacks On a side note: If you are not running Alolan Marowak on your Trick Room team your team isn't viable TBH. It also gets hazard removal which Trick Room teams can normally not afford, heck Trick Room has trouble fitting SR onto a team. With regards to that Necrozma is a godsend this gen its Stealth Rock Cresselia with Solid Rock instead of levitate and supports Magearna and Tapu Bulu better than Bronzong because it stacks weaknesses on a lot of setters. I'm not as big of mimikyu as since TR only lasts 5 turns a TR setter that can set once and die is only useful if you're guaranteed 4 turns of TR and is usually if you're opponent packs a hard counter to one of your sweepers. Its still useful but I don't see it as a must carry on every team, especially if your team lacks an answer to mega scizor. In viable TR teams I think it doesn't offer as much utility as necrozma with a mental herb which guarantees set up just as well as long as the opponent isn't super boosted. I think it should also be mentioned that bulky set up sweepers (especially ones with priority) like mega scizor or Defensive D-nite are the most important things a trick room team needs to counter as they can't simply be stopped by setting up trick room.

Despite getting a bunch of new tools I think TR was just as good in the early XY meta since until the meta normalizes and the viable pokemon rise to the top more people run heavily offensive teams. Trick Room is ultimately an Anti-Meta strategy that prospers in metagames where HO is the dominant playstyle which it usually is early in a metagame's life. Yet Mega Marowak's ability to roll through all teams with a SD may be a sign that TR can sustain its logevity even if the meta becomes less offensive. (especially if mega mawile comes out with pokebank).

Some interesting points. I think the issue with Torkoal is TR teams don't have any room for utility outside of setters most of the time, as in order to use a utility move on something that doesn't learn TR you either burn through a TR turn with TR already up or you need to bring in setter after the utility mon to get it working. Quite possibly, this kind of utility would work on a semi-TR team, but I still don't think Torkoal would be the best mon to be your utility simply because of the SR weakness.

I wouldn't say a TR team not running Alolan Marowak isn't viable, but certainly there's very little reason to not have Marowak on your team given it's huge starting power and that it doesn't really have any switch-ins (and about half the time won't need to even use SD to hit hard). Until the state of the meta significantly changes, I think it's fair to say it'll remain the star of TR this gen.

While I like Necrozma, I think it's a little difficult to pin down a nice role for it. Besides SR and Toxic (the latter which isn't much use to TR as offensive teams don't stall very well) it doesn't have good utility or other annoyance options that gel well with TR, and offensively its coverage is very slim. The set I posted somewhat gets around this by using Z-Prismatic Laser to blast the enemy, but it's entirely walled by dark types. I guess for a defensive spread 248/48+/212 is best, this set means that Specs Ash-Greninja can't OHKO you after SR but also means that utility sets like Lando-T can only 3HKO even with SR. This set would therefore give you a clutch against strong special sweepers to set TR, but would also allow you to heal up using Moonlight against physical utility sets lacking Taunt providing you an opportunity to set TR or SR and possibly Toxic stall. With the bulk, setting TR multiple times in a match shouldn't be too tricky.

For Mimikyu, I think saying it's mainly used to set and die is under-selling it. Ghost/fairy is good STAB coverage meaning that, though a base 90 attack stat may not look formidable, end game it's more than capable of a clean. Further, the set and Curse die end game can be extremely useful, and it plays a thorough mind-game with the opponent. To explain this in more detail...

Hide

Say you have a 40% Alolan Marowak and there's Rocks on your side of the field, and you've just got the guaranteed set with Mimikyu. Marowak is set to clean their team as they have no priority, but obviously can't manually switch it and take an attack. The opponent is then left with nothing to do but attack you, as anything else would be over-playing (they'll worry that by switching themselves you'll get the free Marowak switch, or if they stall a turn with a non-attacking move you'll get the free Marowak switch). This plays right into your hands with Curse, as your Mimikyu has already taken SR damage on the way in, and will take 50% from Curse, leaving you opponent with only a meagre 37.5% to take off you - which almost anything with any kind of decent offence will do even on a 248 invested HP stat. Curse is also an added sting, as if you have managed to set Rocks then two rounds of neutral SR recoil (one when they switched in as they're facing off against Mimikyu, the second when they switch out because of the Curse and switch back in later) that's 50% you've just taken off for free - further and significantly aiding your clean.

The fact that Mimikyu provides you often with two straight win-cons (it cleaning, or it capably facilitating something else to clean) as well as Curse providing setup sweeper and sub counterplay in addition to guaranteed TR setting makes it probably the strongest setter IMO of this gen or possibly any gen. There's such a good mix of utility and offence there combined with the guaranteed TR setting that there's little to nothing you opponent can do against it, which I wouldn't say is true for any other setter out there. I would go so far as to say it's a good set in general for non-TR teams so long as you do have something nice and slow to exploit TR with, as though Mimikyu is good on paper it's base speed isn't high speed tier which lets it down a lot of the time - this set always has something to do.

You say that the most important things an opponent needs to watch out for now is bulky priority - I wouldn't say this is true. Lele has currently put such a dampener on priority that SD sets are often too costly to put on a team, as you can no longer just slot them in and expect a win-con to fall in your lap. I think Lando-T is really the thing to watch for TR still at the moment, you could probably ladder high-ish without stall counter-play but for Lando-T you really need something there.

While it's true Trick Room is an anti-meta style and is maybe slightly easier early gen, when you consider there were successful TR teams later last gen (my own one included) and that as I detailed in my above post this gen is so much softer to TR teams (no sleep, gentler priority, little TR turn-stalling paralysis, no need for Fake-Out/Protect Mega evolutions) I'd be very surprised if TR won't remain consistently more viable throughout the gen.

 

[Jojobobo]

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Bone
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake

The consensus on Rock Head over Lightning Rod seems to be that this set is just flat out worse but I personally think Rock Head is worth using over Lightning Rod if you're using A-Marowak as your dedicated breaker. bludz already made a post in the viability rankings thread here (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3590726/page-5#post-7182220) regarding this and I completely agree.
Marowak always felt like a rather shaky Electric check to me anyways, especially since U-turn became very common on Tapu Koko, which usually results in power-houses like Ash-Gren coming in after your switch to Marowak because its weaknesses are pretty easy to exploit.
However, the ability to abuse something as powerful as Flare Blitz without any drawback is something that shouldn't be underestimated, especially against defensive teams. The current common stall builds I've seen just get ript apart by this SD Marowak since Dugtrio can't trap it and everything else falls over.

I like the idea of this A-Marowak as a stall-breaker, but I'm curious where the 128 Spe has come from? I think a set of 40 HP / 252+ Atk / 4 Def / 212 Spe, as 212 speed hits that benchmark I've been talking about for stall of being just faster than 8 Spe Skarmory as well as giving an odd HP number. You're still walled by Quagsire if stall is running him, but it doesn't seem to quite so much given Bulu running around.

 

[TURBODERP]

Defensive Moltres might actually be worth looking into. I used to like using it back in early XY for its ability to take on things like Aegislash, Mega Mawile, and Charizard Y, but the problem was always finding a good defensive hazard remover that synergized well with it. Tapu Fini has provided Moltres with a great new teammate that can remove hazards and switch into Waters. As long as you can keep hazards off the field, it can check a lot of big threats depending on its EV investment. Some examples:

Examples

Physically defensive sets can take on Mega Metagross without Thunder Punch (although a lot of them run it). It takes on Celesteela nicely. Heatran can hardly touch it outside of Toxic. With a lot of SpD investment, it can take Magearna's Thunderbolt surprisingly well and can Roost stall it if necessary (Volt Switch does even less), and it switches into its other moves with ease. Buzzwoles lacking Thunder Punch can't do much of anything to it. It isn't really threatened by anything Pheromosa commonly carries. It switches into Mega Scizor all day. It hates Stone Edge, but otherwise, it comes in on Tapu Bulu easily. It also shuts down Zygarde (HA! Not really, I just wanted to see if you were paying attention). As long as it has significant Def investment, it can take A-Marowak's Shadow Bone minus defense drops, which is good because that thing is a pain to switch into sometimes. In fact, it can switch pretty well into a lot of things that can't hit it super effectively with proper EV investment (SpD can handle Mega Alakazam, for example), and of course it still checks things like Charizard Y that it checked last generation.

Could be a decent niche choice on bulky teams that need something to check some of the aforementioned threats while also spreading burns or something. Talonflame might have been the bird to go to for such a job, but with the Gale Wings nerf, that competition isn't there anymore. Defensive Moltres certainly looks more viable now than it was late last generation given how good Tapu Fini is. Just slot in a sturdy Grass or Ground to help cover the Electric and Rock weaknesses.

A mixed spread I just whipped up and crunched some numbers for is as follows.

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 100 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Toxic

Roost and Flamethrower are mandatory because you need STAB and Flamethrower hits hard even with 0 investment (doing 72% min to standard Mega Metagross). Wisp is great to neuter things like BandTar on the switch (24 speed EVs hits 223 Speed, which means you outspeed 0 Speed Defensive Lando-T, Rotom-W, bulky Scizor, and Max Speed Adamant Bandtar), as well as crippling Scizor and other physical attackers (Bisharp, Lando-T, etc.). Toxic is great because it lets you actually do something versus switch-ins like Alolan Marowak and Mantine, who otherwise wall you to hell and back.

I think that every defensive set should run max HP (248 hits an odd number for Stealth Rock) and at least 24 Speed (if using a non-speed boosting nature), since being able to outspeed Max Speed BandTar and cripple it with Wisp is super important. If you go full PhysDef, you almost totally wall things like SubPunch Buzzwole and non-ThunderPunch Mega Metagross. If you go full SpDef, you take a max of 50% from Modest AV Magearna's Thunderbolt, and Mega Zam can't really touch you.

This spread tries to hit a middle ground. You dodge the 2HKO from anything a non-Thunder Punch Mega Metagross can throw at you, while still being able to wall Mega Alakazam. Modest AV Magearna's Volt Switch does just under 50%, while Defensive Lando-T's Stone Edge only has a ~40% chance to OHKO you (and since you outspeed it, you can Wisp it and stall out the Stone Edge PP). Banded Tapu Bulu can't touch you without Stone Edge, while Modest Specs Tapu Lele's Psychic only has a 25% chance to OHKO you with Psychic. Modest Zard Y's Fire Blast in the Sun caps out at under 50%, so you can Roost Stall it into oblivion (with Toxic), while +2 Jolly Mega Charizard X's Dragon Claw cannot OHKO you (so you can at least Toxic it in an emergency). Naughty LO Pheromosa only can 3HKO with High Jump Kick, and a +2 Jolly Kartana's Corkscrew Crash does a max of 86%.

 

[OverlordDerp]

A mixed spread I just whipped up and crunched some numbers for is as follows.

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 100 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Toxic

Roost and Flamethrower are mandatory because you need STAB and Flamethrower hits hard even with 0 investment (doing 72% min to standard Mega Metagross). Wisp is great to neuter things like BandTar on the switch (24 speed EVs hits 223 Speed, which means you outspeed 0 Speed Defensive Lando-T, Rotom-W, bulky Scizor, and Max Speed Adamant Bandtar), as well as crippling Scizor and other physical attackers (Bisharp, Lando-T, etc.). Toxic is great because it lets you actually do something versus switch-ins like Alolan Marowak and Mantine, who otherwise wall you to hell and back.

I think that every defensive set should run max HP (248 hits an odd number for Stealth Rock) and at least 24 Speed (if using a non-speed boosting nature), since being able to outspeed Max Speed BandTar and cripple it with Wisp is super important. If you go full PhysDef, you almost totally wall things like SubPunch Buzzwole and non-ThunderPunch Mega Metagross. If you go full SpDef, you take a max of 50% from Modest AV Magearna's Thunderbolt, and Mega Zam can't really touch you.

This spread tries to hit a middle ground. You dodge the 2HKO from anything a non-Thunder Punch Mega Metagross can throw at you, while still being able to wall Mega Alakazam. Modest AV Magearna's Volt Switch does just under 50%, while Defensive Lando-T's Stone Edge only has a ~40% chance to OHKO you (and since you outspeed it, you can Wisp it and stall out the Stone Edge PP). Banded Tapu Bulu can't touch you without Stone Edge, while Modest Specs Tapu Lele's Psychic only has a 25% chance to OHKO you with Psychic. Modest Zard Y's Fire Blast in the Sun caps out at under 50%, so you can Roost Stall it into oblivion (with Toxic), while +2 Jolly Mega Charizard X's Dragon Claw cannot OHKO you (so you can at least Toxic it in an emergency). Naughty LO Pheromosa only can 3HKO with High Jump Kick, and a +2 Jolly Kartana's Corkscrew Crash does a max of 86%.

Any merit to Burn Up? Against Lando-T, even Roosting after a WoW still sets you up for the EQ 50/50 from offensive sets, which still deals a hefty amount of damage considering it's STAB, unlike Stone Edge. Turning into mono-Flying (or was it Normal/Flying?) alleviates that, although it doesn't have as much long-term value as a burn. Does turning into a typeless 'mon after Burn Up + Roost have any competitive niche?

 

[Siggu]

Any merit to Burn Up? Against Lando-T, even Roosting after a WoW still sets you up for the EQ 50/50 from offensive sets, which still deals a hefty amount of damage considering it's STAB, unlike Stone Edge. Turning into mono-Flying (or was it Normal/Flying?) alleviates that, although it doesn't have as much long-term value as a burn. Does turning into a typeless 'mon after Burn Up + Roost have any competitive niche?

Not at all. Burn Up cannot be used more than once if you don't switch out in-between (or recover your Fire-type in the process, which is nothing bar an Smeargle with a type-changing move could pull off).

You'd be even more helpless than most defensive Pokemon if targeted by a Taunt because you couldn't even Struggle until Burn Up runs out of PP.

 

[TrueExcaKill]

How well does Volcanion preform at the moment?