Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Uribe13]

I'm still good guys...


Hi. I would like to nominate Volcanion for B+ rank.

Volcanion @ Grassium Z
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Toxic / Hidden Power [Ice]

The reason is that, similarly to Heatran, Volcanion has gotten a huge buff with Z-moves thanks to Grassium-Z, which allows Volcanion to fire off a stupidly strong grass-type move that targets it's best previous checks, bulky Water-Types, outright killing or severly weakening them. It also loves the Lati twins being a bit less relevant.
Volcanion immediately becomes more difficult to check, as it' offensive typing and great moves to abuse it are now harder to play around. Volcanion also still boasts great utility thanks to it's great defensive typing, Water-Absorb ability, and decent bulk for an offensive Pokémon. To top it all off, we all know how hazard control is in good shape in this metagame, making Volcanion way better than it was in the late ORAS Metagame. Do I have to mention how still busted Steam Eruption is, even with the nerf of burn?

This set packs maximum power, with 176 speed EVs allowing Volcanion to reach 220 Speed, outspeeding 52 spe Tapu Fini, 96 spe Tapu Bulu, still gets the jump over most Rotoms, Defensive/Offensive Mega-Venusaur, etc. The remaining 80 EVs are put in HP for more overall bulk, and allow Volcanion to always survive Mega-Metagross's Thunder Punch after Stealth Rock, and Mega-Alakazam's Psychic after Stealth Rock, for exemple.

Some calcs

252+ SpA Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Bloom Doom vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 170-200 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Volcanion Bloom Doom vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Tapu Fini: 358-422 (104.3 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 288-338 (79.1 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 122-146 (33.6 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 230-272 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 236-278 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 200-236 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 202-238 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah volcanion is still cool, i've using it a little bit and works pretty fine. Just saying, hp electric it's a nice option for the fourth slot too for mantine.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I can see Marowak in A- or B+ but I agree with Bludz that getting worn down by SR+U-turn and then being forced out isn't a good argument as to why it should drop. If you're sending in a rock weak mon on a u-turn, that's just using it badly. Marowak's offensive capabilities are also being understated as very few teams have a good Ghost resist. I mean, this thing can reach 400 attack with almost no investment and a non-choice item, has one of the best offensive STABs available, and on top of that it serves as a decent check to a bunch of stuff in the meta. I think it's good enough for A-.

I think another important point is that Marowak pairs very well with Tapu Fini, who's the best defogger and one of the best mons in the tier, so I honestly don't think the SR weakness is that big of a deal.

 

[CoolTrainerGary]

Bronzong unranked --> C+

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Toxic / Protect

This set checks all three of the S tier pokemon. The EV's guarantee that Bronzong will avoid the 3HKO from Mega Metagross' Hammer Arm, while it has a 99% chance to 3HKO Metagross with EQ after rocks damage. If running Protect (to get extra turns of leftovers recovery), this set is almost a hard counter to M-Gross. The spdef investment guarantees that it avoids the 2HKO from Lele's Shadow Ball, while Bronzong OHKOs Lele in return with Gyro Ball -- keep in mind that Shadow Ball is not very common on Lele, as it much prefers to carry HP Fire or Thunderbolt in the last moveslot to hit Ferrothorn and Celesteela respectively, so Bronzong is a hard counter to most Lele sets running around right now. Defensive Lando-T can't touch Bronzong as Knock Off has fallen out of popularity this gen as Stone Edge and HP Ice are generally preferred to check M-Pinsir, and opposing Lando-T/skystrike Mence/Zygarde respectively. In regards to Landorus-T's double dancing set, Bronzong can tank a +2 Supersonic Skystrike from Landorus-T (albeit not very well) and can then proceed to wall Lando by protecting on Landorus-T's Fly move that it is forced to use after it has used it's Flyium Z. Bronzong laughs at Rockium Z Landorus.

Relevant Calcs:

Hide

0 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 92-110 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Bronzong: 107-127 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 172-204 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Bronzong: 163-192 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Bronzong: 237-279 (70.1 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (125 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 308-366 (109.2 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Bronzong: 142-168 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Bronzong: 106-126 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Bronzong: 44-52 (13 - 15.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Other OU relevant threats that Bronzong checks/counters include: Tapu Bulu, Garchomp, Flyium Z Salamence, Mega Zam, Lati's, Mega Pinsir, Sand Rush Excadrill, Mamoswine (w/o Knock), Nihilego, etc.

Because of Bronzong's typing & ability, it also acts as one of the most reliable Trick Room setters

Bronzong @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Trick Room
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Explosion

With all that being said, Bronzong still struggles to make an impact in OU because of its relative passivity, but it does have a niche in checking a number of top tier threats for bulky & balance teambuilds as well as being a reliable TR setter for TR teams.

 

[MagicHoraceGrant]

Ash Greninja and greninja-> S
Both of these mons are extremely huge threats that need to be bumped up. They have basically no switch ins and require scouting to determine how to deal with the mon. Protean Gunk Shot is still viable as it can 2hko a lot of ash greninjas counters and ash greninja is still very tough to switch into. Both Greninjas are top tier threat that can do a lot damage to any play style in the game.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Ash Greninja and greninja-> S
Both of these mons are extremely huge threats that need to be bumped up. They have basically no switch ins and require scouting to determine how to deal with the mon. Protean Gunk Shot is still viable as it can 2hko a lot of ash greninjas counters and ash greninja is still very tough to switch into. Both Greninjas are top tier threat that can do a lot damage to any play style in the game.

1. I'd say Ash-Greninja is fine as-is on A+. I check it handily with Tapu Fini and CM Blissey (note - normally I use CM Blissey to laugh in other Bulky Waters' faces, such as Manaphy) on my current team, though I'm sure others can name different checks on the spot depending on the coverage it runs. I'm certain Tapu Fini is a very reliable cheque to Ash-Gren, and that Tapu Koko outspeeds pre-BattleBonded Ash-Gren and KOs with Volt Switch normally.
2. As for regular Greninja? I have a hard time imagining most if its sets being S-ranked. The thing about other S-rank mons is that almost all of their sets are S-ranked, with maybe only their most "gimmicky" sets going to A+. What makes Protean Greninja an S-ranked 'mon?

 

[MagicHoraceGrant]

1. I'd say Ash-Greninja is fine as-is on A+. I check it handily with Tapu Fini and CM Blissey (note - normally I use CM Blissey to laugh in other Bulky Waters' faces, such as Manaphy) on my current team, though I'm sure others can name different checks on the spot depending on the coverage it runs. I'm certain Tapu Fini is a very reliable cheque to Ash-Gren, and that Tapu Koko outspeeds pre-BattleBonded Ash-Gren and KOs with Volt Switch normally.
2. As for regular Greninja? I have a hard time imagining most if its sets being S-ranked. The thing about other S-rank mons is that almost all of their sets are S-ranked, with maybe only their most "gimmicky" sets going to A+. What makes Protean Greninja an S-ranked 'mon?

With your point on greninja, only one of its sets has to be ranked s for it to be s.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

about ninja:
ash form and regular form boost each others viability. tapu fini, toxapex, ferrothorn, venu etc. are all roadblocks in some way to ash ninja but they get btfo by protean ninja. the fear of "is he bb or protean" is very real and makes both forms more dangerous than they would be if it was only one mon. also tapu koko being a check to ash ninja rarely comes into play because it cant switch in on anything bar dark pulse and it cant revenge kill transformed ninja.

 

[ssjjynx]

With your point on greninja, only one of its sets has to be ranked s for it to be s.

I strongly disagree with that line of thinking, at least in the context of viability rankings. Let's take, for instance a pokemon x. Let's say pokemon x's best set is a choice scarf set that is s rank worthy, while all it's other sets average at a solid A. Saying that this is an all-round s-rank pokemon is frankly untrue, especially from a teambuilding perspective. What if you have a team that already has a scarf mon, ie lele, but you want to use pokemon x? Pokemon x's best set, and only s rank set, has a choice scarf, but for team synergy purposes you know that this would be detrimental to your team - therein you have the choice between either using pokemon x's less viable sets and therefore not utilizing your teamslot to its maximum potential, or just not using pokemon x at all. Obviously there are some differences between this scenario and greninja's situation, but the same concept applies. In ash greninjas case, it's best set is specs, and your team might already have specs magnezone or specs pheromosa or lele, and for team-cohesion this can be inconvenient. Saying only one s-rank set is necessary to justify a pokemon being considered s-rank in and of itself allows for rather dangerous thinking to develop in regards to how the ranking of pokemon is considered, and could allow several pokemon in the future to be promoted to a rank that the set might deserve, but the pokemon itself decidedly not.

 

[yuruuu]

I strongly disagree with that line of thinking, at least in the context of viability rankings. Let's take, for instance a pokemon x. Let's say pokemon x's best set is a choice scarf set that is s rank worthy, while all it's other sets average at a solid A. Saying that this is an all-round s-rank pokemon is frankly untrue, especially from a teambuilding perspective. What if you have a team that already has a scarf mon, ie lele, but you want to use pokemon x? Pokemon x's best set, and only s rank set, has a choice scarf, but for team synergy purposes you know that this would be detrimental to your team - therein you have the choice between either using pokemon x's less viable sets and therefore not utilizing your teamslot to its maximum potential, or just not using pokemon x at all. Obviously there are some differences between this scenario and greninja's situation, but the same concept applies. In ash greninjas case, it's best set is specs, and your team might already have specs magnezone or specs pheromosa or lele, and for team-cohesion this can be inconvenient. Saying only one s-rank set is necessary to justify a pokemon being considered s-rank in and of itself allows for rather dangerous thinking to develop in regards to how the ranking of pokemon is considered, and could allow several pokemon in the future to be promoted to a rank that the set might deserve, but the pokemon itself decidedly not.

If a set is S rank then the Pokémon is clearly capable of performing at that rank, even if it is its only good set. By your logic monodimensional Pokemon like Chansey should be lower because their other sets are clearly not at the same rank. From a teambuilding perspective I want to know the best among a Pokemon's sets, not "the average". If you already have a scarf lele and think that another set works better, that's team specific and not really related to a Pokemons overall viability.

 

[Manlio]

Back in ORAS, the only S rank set for Clefable were calm mind + magic guard, before the raise of the support set. No one came out with the argument that it was not S because it had only one S set.

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

Marowak-Alola is nowhere near a counter to M-Scizor. i been using this scizor set that allows it to outspeed marowak and kill it with +2 Knock off because people think its a counter for some reason. Wish i had a lot more replays but i had my opponent switch Marowak into Scizor so many times it actually gets funny after a while.

+2 8+ Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 272-320 (104.2 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 8+ Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 272-320 (83.9 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 8+ Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marowak-Alola: 198-234 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-508806606
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-502362223
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-502362223
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-508806606

 

[oreofestar]

To be fair though most people don't run Knock Off on Scizor cuz you know....it's not that good

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

Knock off M-Scizor hits Heatran , Marowak, Mantine, Celesteela, Skarmory, etc. Personally i think its way better then U-Turn since Knock off can actually hit its counters.

 

[Gary]

Knock off M-Scizor hits Heatran , Marowak, Mantine, Celesteela, Skarmory, etc. Personally i think its way better then U-Turn since Knock off can actually hit its counters.

Knock Off doesn't even let it beat any of these Pokemon outside of Marowak, in all of these Pokemon's case they either have a move that can cripple Mega Sciz before it can get to +6 and do something with Knock Off, or can just phase it out (in Skarm's case). Besides U-turn just lets it grab momentum on these Pokemon that would normally try to switch into it, allowing you to respond with a check of your own such as Ash Greninja, Hoopa-U, Tapu Koko, etc. I personally only like Knock Off for the utility it brings, aka knocking off items, but outside of that it doesn't provide Mega Sciz that much else where it would rather just be running U-turn and allow you to take advantage of its counters that way without losing momentum.

 

[OmastarLovesDonuts]

I want to second Bronzong for C+; it's by no means perfect since it's a bit too passive to be a major threat and lacks reliable recovery, but it does an excellent job of walling top-tier mons like Mega Metagross, and fits in very well with most teams that are not worried about losing momentum by having it come in to take a hit or two. It works particularly well in tandem with Tapu Fini, which deals with mons like Ash-Greninja and, with the right set, Heatran, that can take down Bronzong. Mega Venusaur is also a good partner, stopping Tapu Koko. In all, Bronzong is a solid wall, and is an effective lead thanks to Stealth Rock.

 

[ravilolijoey]

I would like to bring up scarf kartana. This thing has literally no switch-ins besides lando-t, steel types who are neutral to fighting (skarm, celesteela, magearna), or the charizards. I would like to bring up some notable calcs.

252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 240-284 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 136-162 (42.1 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 372-440 (132.3 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Keep in mind that he gets an attack boost after killing these monsters.

Kartana can also clean entire times late game, as it outpaces and slowly kills everything.

Worst of all, on webs you can run life orb and have basically have the same affect, without locking yourself into a move.

I think kartana can at least move up to B+ or A-

[EDIT] this team i made just wins on low ladder 99% of the time: http://pastebin.com/dN0jdtam

 

[TURBODERP]

I would like to bring up scarf kartana. This thing has literally no switch-ins besides lando-t, steel types who are neutral to fighting (skarm, celesteela, magearna), or the charizards. I would like to bring up some notable calcs.

252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 240-284 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 136-162 (42.1 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 372-440 (132.3 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Keep in mind that he gets an attack boost after killing these monsters.

Kartana can also clean entire times late game, as it outpaces and slowly kills everything.

Worst of all, on webs you can run life orb and have basically have the same affect, without locking yourself into a move.

I think kartana can at least move up to B+ or A-

I'm no expert on Kartana, but if you're Scarf, you're locked into easily walled STAB moves or a non-STAB Sacred Sword (which is resisted by a lot of the common stuff in the Meta). If you're Life Orb and don't have webs up, you're outpaced by anything equal to or faster than base 110's, which is a lot of stuff. Plus, your special bulk is so awful that even resisted special attacks can OHKO after a bit of chip damage (so more special attackers can revenge kill).

A- seems high.

 

[WebBowser]

I would like to bring up scarf kartana. This thing has literally no switch-ins besides lando-t, steel types who are neutral to fighting (skarm, celesteela, magearna), or the charizards. I would like to bring up some notable calcs.

252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 240-284 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 136-162 (42.1 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 372-440 (132.3 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Keep in mind that he gets an attack boost after killing these monsters.

Kartana can also clean entire times late game, as it outpaces and slowly kills everything.

Worst of all, on webs you can run life orb and have basically have the same affect, without locking yourself into a move.

I think kartana can at least move up to B+ or A-

The issue with this line of thinking is that most of her moves are fairly easy to wall by common pokemon, so if you choose wrong you're losing momentum. Even if you choose the correct move, it's unlikely that she'll sweep because you're either locked into a STAB that's walled by multiple pokemon on each team or a weaker coverage move that might not be able to muscle past the 1 or 2 resists the enemy team has for it. If you can show +1 Kartana muscling past bulky resists with her STAB moves, then I might reconsider, but otherwise I think the raise is drastic to say the least.

*edit*

ninja'd by 4 minutes... pathetic...

 

[ravilolijoey]

true, a- is high, but its niche as a wallbreaker is really good, and i think B+ would be nice. kill so many threats that a team is weak to and still, kartana has teammates

 

[TURBODERP]

true, a- is high, but its niche as a wallbreaker is really good, and i think B+ would be nice. kill so many threats that a team is weak to and still, kartana has teammates

I feel like the big issue is kinda what I outlined though-easily wallable dual STAB that don't have VERY high base power, and mediocre coverage. Either you're 109 speed and are revenge killed really easily, or you run Scarf and are locked into some pretty sub-par options. Kartana's best set is probably a Z-move set which lets it bust through common checks and counters, but I don't think that's deserving of A-. Maaaaybe B+, but I am no expert on Kartana.

 

[Dragontamer]

Talonflame in C- tier still seems too high for it. Especially when its peers are allegedly Hydreigon, Primarina, and Victini.

What sets are people running on Talonflame? I can't really imagine anything Talonflame does very well anymore. 81 Atk behind a non-priority Brave Bird is pretty weak, even off the 126 speed. I dunno, drop Talonflame to D or maybe even unranked? We're talking about a 4x Stealth Rocks weak Pokemon who's ability is instantly nullified should Stealth Rocks be on the field. If you really want a Brave Bird suicide bomber, Staraptor is far more usable in this meta. (Scarf Reckless Brave Bird outspeeds and OHKOs Scarf Lele, 2HKOs Toxapex).

I can actually see a use of Hydreigon, Primarina, or Victini on specific teams. I honestly cannot see any circumstance where I'd use a Talonflame. Talonflame's Bulk Up set sucks now, without Priority Roost. Suicide Bomber is far too weak, and Talonflame still needs a Scarf if it hopes to revenge kill popular `mon like Koko or Pheromosa.

But with that said: anyone want to try and defend Talonflame's placement in C-? I'd be curious if people were using some Talonflame set creatively or something. I just don't see how Talonflame compares to the rest of the C- Pokemon.

 

[ravilolijoey]

i'm probably biased after seeing a kartana ohko a steela at +3 and how good it does in my azu+maro+sharp team, but i get your points and how it either is winning games or simply walled.

 

[Gary]

Talonflame in C- tier still seems too high for it. Especially when its peers are Hydreigon, Primarina, and Victini (V-Create Spam).

What sets are people running on Talonflame? I can't really imagine anything Talonflame does very well anymore. 81 Atk behind a non-priority Brave Bird is pretty weak, even off the 126 speed. I dunno, drop Talonflame to D or maybe even unranked? We're talking about a 4x Stealth Rocks weak Pokemon who's ability is instantly nullified should Stealth Rocks be on the field. If you really want a Brave Bird suicide bomber, Staraptor is far more usable in this meta.

I can actually see a use of Hydreigon, Primarina, or Victini on specific teams. I honestly cannot see any circumstance where I'd use a Talonflame.

A pretty cool set that honestly just wrecks some teams because of a lack of resilient Flying checks being used atm is SD / Brave Bird / Fire STAB / filler with Fly Z stone. As long as Talon is at full health, this set can realistically get off two priority Flying STABs, one being Supersonic Skystrike which just melts stuff like Koko at +2. A 190 BP priority Flying move is absolutely terrifying, and if u manage to get to +2 without taking damage (aka forcing switches) you're pretty much guaranteed to kill anything that's not really fat the following turn. It's by no means an amazing Pokemon because it requires some support and the payoff isn't really that great, but it's pretty cool to pair with something that likes Rotom-W, Tapu Koko, Lando, and other "Flying checks" weakened.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Talonflame in C- tier still seems too high for it. Especially when its peers are Hydreigon, Primarina, and Victini (V-Create Spam).

What sets are people running on Talonflame? I can't really imagine anything Talonflame does very well anymore. 81 Atk behind a non-priority Brave Bird is pretty weak, even off the 126 speed. I dunno, drop Talonflame to D or maybe even unranked? We're talking about a 4x Stealth Rocks weak Pokemon who's ability is instantly nullified should Stealth Rocks be on the field. If you really want a Brave Bird suicide bomber, Staraptor is far more usable in this meta. (Scarf Reckless Brave Bird outspeeds Scarf Lele, 2HKOs Toxapex)

I can actually see a use of Hydreigon, Primarina, or Victini on specific teams. I honestly cannot see any circumstance where I'd use a Talonflame. Talonflame's Bulk Up set sucks now, without Priority Roost. Suicide Bomber is far too weak, and Talonflame still needs a Scarf if it hopes to revenge kill popular `mon like Koko or Pheromosa.

But with that said: anyone want to try and defend Talonflame's placement in C-? I'd be curious if people were using some Talonflame set creatively or something.

If I remember right, Gale Wings works on Supersonic Skystrike, so there is the potential of a SD + Flyinium-Z set. Z-Brave Bird has 190 BP, which is significantly more powerful than Sharp Beak Brave Bird that we were used to last generation. If you play your cards right, you can use the Z-move followed by Brave Bird and get two very powerful priority moves in a row before you lose priority. But yeah, I'm still not entirely sure if that's a set worth fooling with most of the time. It seems like it would take a lot of trouble to pull off, although the results would be pretty impressive if you did.

Here's a post I made on it back in the early SM days: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...hange-discussion.3586564/page-11#post-7088126

EDIT: Ash-Greninja'd.

 

[Dragontamer]

A pretty cool set that honestly just wrecks some teams because of a lack of resilient Flying checks being used atm is SD / Brave Bird / Fire STAB / filler with Fly Z stone. As long as Talon is at full health, this set can realistically get off two priority Flying STABs, one being Supersonic Skystrike which just melts stuff like Koko at +2. A 190 BP priority Flying move is absolutely terrifying, and if u manage to get to +2 without taking damage (aka forcing switches) you're pretty much guaranteed to kill anything that's not really fat the following turn. It's by no means an amazing Pokemon because it requires some support and the payoff isn't really that great, but it's pretty cool to pair with something that likes Rotom-W, Tapu Koko, Lando, and other "Flying checks" weakened.

If I remember right, Gale Wings works on Supersonic Skystrike, so there is the potential of a SD + Flyinium-Z set. Z-Brave Bird has 190 BP, which is significantly more powerful than Sharp Beak Brave Bird that we were used to last generation. If you play your cards right, you can use the Z-move followed by Brave Bird and get two very powerful priority moves in a row before you lose priority. But yeah, I'm still not entirely sure if that's a set worth fooling with most of the time. It seems like it would take a lot of trouble to pull off, although the results would be pretty impressive if you did.

Here's a post I made on it back in the early SM days: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...hange-discussion.3586564/page-11#post-7088126

EDIT: Ash-Greninja'd.

Thanks. That does seem like a useful niche, although it requires a lot of conditions to pull off: Fresh Talonflame, +2 Swords dance, no Stealth Rocks... as well as the major opportunity cost of hogging the Z-item from the rest of your team.

I'd have to play with it myself to see how good it is really, but we're comparing this hypothetical 190 BP attack off 81 Atk stat against V-Create Victini and putting it in the same tier. I mean, Victini just... gets a 180BP attack with few drawbacks, and gets to keep the Life Orb / Choice Scarf / Choice Band / whatever (and the rest of the team gets to use a Z-move).

Is the threat of priority +2 Supersonic Skystrike really worth losing the Z-Crystal on Moxie Salamence / Moxie Gyarados? (Or any of the other Z-crystal users?)

But thanks for answering my question. You've given me something to playtest in any case.