Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[GaRgAnt]

How well does Volcanion preform at the moment?

Not great.

1. He's vulnerable to all three entry hazards, and Stealth Rock especially.

2. He's hard walled by Toxapex.

Well, that might be a stretch. You can run Earthquake in a surprise mixed set to do some mad damage to it and 2HKO (Base 110 attack isn't bad at all), but Volcanion likes its defenses.

3. He's slow. even in this meta that doesn't value speed as much as I remember previous metas being. (There's a distinct speed gap of usable OU Pokemon right now between the 105-130 range, filled only by pre-transformation Greninja, Dugtrio, and Megagross)

4. His typing is also problematic- while switching into a water move will essentially negate Stealth Rock damage (Thanks Water Absorb) Volcanion being weak to Earthquake (Therian Landorus being everywhere doesn't help, as is Dugtrio to a lesser extent), neutral to grass when CB Tapu Bulu is rather common these days, rock when CB Tyranitar is enjoying some more popularity, and electricity when Tapu Koko is running riot makes for a number of things you have to pay attention to in the teambuilding process.

Of course, if you're willing to take an Earthquake/you've kept the field clear of Stealth Rock...

252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 204-240 (67.5 - 79.4%) means that if the Megagross player isn't expecting it, you can get a revenge kill on Megagross rather easily, barring a crit ruining your day. That, or if the Megagross user isn't running Earthquake.

tl;dr: He's workable- but being neutral to Wood Hammer, weak to the main STAB move of Landorus-T and being weak to Tapu Koko doesn't help its case.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Not great.

1. He's vulnerable to all three entry hazards, and Stealth Rock especially.

2. He's hard walled by Toxapex.

Well, that might be a stretch. You can run Earthquake in a surprise mixed set to do some mad damage to it and 2HKO (Base 110 attack isn't bad at all), but Volcanion likes its defenses.

3. He's slow. even in this meta that doesn't value speed as much as I remember previous metas being. (There's a distinct speed gap of usable OU Pokemon right now between the 105-130 range, filled only by pre-transformation Greninja, Dugtrio, and Megagross)

4. His typing is also problematic- while switching into a water move will essentially negate Stealth Rock damage (Thanks Water Absorb) Volcanion being weak to Earthquake (Therian Landorus being everywhere doesn't help, as is Dugtrio to a lesser extent), neutral to grass when CB Tapu Bulu is rather common these days, rock when CB Tyranitar is enjoying some more popularity, and electricity when Tapu Koko is running riot makes for a number of things you have to pay attention to in the teambuilding process.

Of course, if you're willing to take an Earthquake/you've kept the field clear of Stealth Rock...

252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 204-240 (67.5 - 79.4%) means that if the Megagross player isn't expecting it, you can get a revenge kill on Megagross rather easily, barring a crit ruining your day. That, or if the Megagross user isn't running Earthquake.

I really feel like you just listed off a bunch of facts without any relevance to how Volcanion actually functions.

Some of them aren't even true, you completely forgot that it gets Earth Power so Toxapex is in no way a counter. And who cares if Lando-T can OHKO when you outspeed and OHKO any sets that don't have a lot of speed (so not double dance or scarf.) Tapu Bulu, Koko, and TTar are also things that are absolutely not switching in to you.

Yeah it has weaknesses but it also has resistances. It's a good check to Mega Scizor, Y-zard (who is so hard to account for right now,) Heatran, Magearna, Manaphy, and a ton of other top threats. A bulky fire type is actually really good to have right now, Heatran is generally better but being immune to water instead of weak means it can actually serve as a really good water check.

Also Volcanion can run Bloom Doom Solar Beam just like heatran; it's actually a huge pain in the pass to switch in to especially when it has a move as retarded as Steam Eruption. No seriously, this thing really doesn't have any good switch in besides the usual fat stuff like Chansey, Steam/FBlast/Solar Beam/EPower covers most of the tier, and the handful of stuff that can switch in can still get dicked with a burn.

Volcanion is a bit of a niche pick but to say it's not good is just untrue. It's a greater core breaker that provides a lot of defensive utility.

 

[GaRgAnt]

I really feel like you just listed off a bunch of facts without any relevance to how Volcanion actually functions.

Okay...

Some of them aren't even true, you completely forgot that it gets Earth Power

Oh I completely forgot Earth Power was a tutor move from ORAS. Bulbapedia y u no have good filter :/

Yeah it has weaknesses but it also has resistances. It's a good check to Mega Scizor, Y-zard (who is so hard to account for right now,) Heatran, Magearna, Manaphy, and a ton of other top threats. A bulky fire type is actually really good to have right now, Heatran is generally better but being immune to water instead of weak means it can actually serve as a really good water check.

Fire/Water is an average typing if I've seen one. I won't deny it has resistances, but Earthquake weaknesses are never a small matter. Besides, Magearna variants tend to carry Volt Switch anyways, Manaphy will still crush your face after Tail Glow (+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 223-263 (73.8 - 87%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and you can't OHKO it back without a crit even with HP grass, not even close (252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%)), and... uh... which other "ton of other top threats"? It'll take a hit from Ash Greninja just fine and (with Specs) OHKO it back either either HP Grass or Sludge Bomb, but you were never exactly going to switch into it.

Also Volcanion can run Bloom Doom Solar Beam just like heatran; it's actually a huge pain in the pass to switch in to especially when it has a move as retarded as Steam Eruption. No seriously, this thing really doesn't have any good switch in besides the usual fat stuff like Chansey, Steam/FBlast/Solar Beam/EPower covers most of the tier, and the handful of stuff that can switch in can still get dicked with a burn.

Yeah, cool, cool, I'm proud of you, you can list all the moves and completely ignore how it's hit by all three entry hazards.


No really, did you ever realize the fact that it has no secondary typing that resists rock and how much of a drag that is? The reason Heatran is used far, far more than Volcanion despite Volcanion having a similar stat distribution and a great second STAB is that Heatran takes neutral damage to Stealth Rock- Volcanion, in comparison, can only switch it in three times (Possibly more by predicting and abusing Water Absorb) without Wish support, and everybody knows how predictable Wish passing is. A bulky fire time is great to have up until the point where you realize most of them lose a fourth of their HP on switch in.

Volcanion is a bit of a niche pick but to say it's not good is just untrue. It's a greater core breaker that provides a lot of defensive utility.

Just make sure entry hazards are off the field first, right?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Fire/Water is an average typing if I've seen one. I won't deny it has resistances, but Earthquake weaknesses are never a small matter. Besides, Magearna variants tend to carry Volt Switch anyways, Manaphy will still crush your face after Tail Glow (+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 223-263 (73.8 - 87%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and you can't OHKO it back without a crit even with HP grass, not even close (252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%)), and... uh... which other "ton of other top threats"? It'll take a hit from Ash Greninja just fine and (with Specs) OHKO it back either either HP Grass or Sludge Bomb, but you were never exactly going to switch into it.



Yeah, cool, cool, I'm proud of you, you can list all the moves and completely ignore how it's hit by all three entry hazards.


No really, did you ever realize the fact that it has no secondary typing that resists rock and how much of a drag that is? The reason Heatran is used far, far more than Volcanion despite Volcanion having a similar stat distribution and a great second STAB is that Heatran takes neutral damage to Stealth Rock- Volcanion, in comparison, can only switch it in three times (Possibly more by predicting and abusing Water Absorb) without Wish support, and everybody knows how predictable Wish passing is. A bulky fire time is great to have up until the point where you realize most of them lose a fourth of their HP on switch in.

Your post is unnecessarily hostile and snarky but I'm gonna respond anyway.

When 6 / 10 mons in S and A+ are weak to Earthquake (Greninja counts as weak to Earthquake tbh) yes, I do think a weakness to it is a small matter, same with a weakness to any type because no one expects any singular mon to 1v1 the entire meta. This is especially true with Volcanian because literally no Earthquake users can switch in to it.

But okay, let's pretend for a second that Volcanion is a completely free switch for all the landos, and the garchomp, and the excadrills, and the metagrosses, etc. etc. What can I do? I pair it with lando-t, or celesteela, or buzzwole, and so on because that's what you do when you're teambuilding, you cover types other members are weak to. Same with hazards: if I'm worried the defensive capabilities of a mon will be compromised with stealth rock, I'm gonna run hazard support. The only criticism it gets here is that it doesn't pair well with Tapu Fini, but there's still Zapdos, Latios, and Excadrill (inb4 stacking weaknesses is literally suicide) who all pair with it just fine.

You've made no arguments except that it has weaknesses (it has three, two of which are covered by type immunities) and that it's weak to stealth rock. You said it can't OHKO Manaphy at all when I literally just mentioned is best set, Bloom Doom, and you had to look up what moves it gets. I'm fairly confident you've never used or faced Volcanion much at all.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Your post is unnecessarily hostile and snarky but I'm gonna respond anyway.

When 6 / 10 mons in S and A+ are weak to Earthquake (Greninja counts as weak to Earthquake tbh) yes, I do think a weakness to it is a small matter, same with a weakness to any type because no one expects any singular mon to 1v1 the entire meta. This is especially true with Volcanian because literally no Earthquake users can switch in to it.

But okay, let's pretend for a second that Volcanion is a completely free switch for all the landos, and the garchomp, and the excadrills, and the metagrosses, etc. etc. What can I do? I pair it with lando-t, or celesteela, or buzzwole, and so on because that's what you do when you're teambuilding, you cover types other members are weak to. Same with hazards: if I'm worried the defensive capabilities of a mon will be compromised with stealth rock, I'm gonna run hazard support. The only criticism it gets here is that it doesn't pair well with Tapu Fini, but there's still Zapdos, Latios, and Excadrill (inb4 stacking weaknesses is literally suicide) who all pair with it just fine.

You've made no arguments except that it has weaknesses (it has three, two of which are covered by type immunities) and that it's weak to stealth rock. You said it can't OHKO Manaphy at all when I literally just mentioned is best set, Bloom Doom, and you had to look up what moves it gets. I'm fairly confident you've never used or faced Volcanion much at all.

I agree with all of this. I am a big Volcanion fan and have been pairing it with Scarf Thundy-T since it has Volt Absorb and is immune to EQ. From there I think either Dhelmise or Decidueye make for great teammates as they resist EQ and Electric and are good bulky hazard removers.

 

[TURBODERP]

Yea, Volcanion is powerful-other than Chansey and Mantine, not much else walls it (due to coverage options).

Plus, it has some really valuable resistances-Bug, Fairy, Steel, Fire, Ice are all fairly common (Mega Scizor/Volcarona/U-Turn spam, Magearna/Tapu Lele/Azumarill, Mega Scizor/Kartana/Mega Metagross/Jirachi, Mega Charizard X and Y/Volcarona, etc.).

Respectable bulk with that typing means that it's a great offensive tank.

 

[ssjjynx]

Okay...

Yeah, cool, cool, I'm proud of you, you can list all the moves and completely ignore how it's hit by all three entry hazards.

You realise that literally just confirms that it's not a flying, steel or poison type, right? Looking through the tier list, over half the ou tier fits the exact same description, I'm not sure why this is the crux of your entire argument.

 

[GaRgAnt]

When 6 / 10 mons in S and A+ are weak to Earthquake (Greninja counts as weak to Earthquake tbh) yes, I do think a weakness to it is a small matter, same with a weakness to any type because no one expects any singular mon to 1v1 the entire meta. This is especially true with Volcanian because literally no Earthquake users can switch in to it.

That's where you kind of fall apart.

Volcanion has great coverage and great STABs. Let's get that out of the way first. That's true, yes? But it can only use one move a turn. You know it's running Steam Eruption, because why the hell wouldn't you, you know it's running a Fire move, and you know the last two are user preference (Sludge Bomb for fairies not named Magearna, Earth Power for Heatran switchins/Toxapex/something else weak to ground, Grassium-Z for the Choice bluff with Solar Beam, maybe HP Electric for Mantine).

Okay, but it can still only use one move a turn. It's not going to be able to use Fire Blast and Steam Eruption at once. Specially defensive Toxapex variants easily take either STAB and take an Earth Power moderately well (Mainly because of Regenerator) in case of a mistake, the blobs don't care, and Tapu Bulu can switch in on any move that ISN'T a fire move and go to town (This is assuming that Tapu Bulu outspeed the Volcanion) and... Oh yeah, Duggy. Whatever, everything grounded is technically weak to Duggy.

What I'm saying is that there are clear paths to counterplay with Volcanion, and most of them are pretty easy and common. One of them is an entry hazard.

But okay, let's pretend for a second that Volcanion is a completely free switch for all the landos, and the garchomp, and the excadrills, and the metagrosses, etc. etc. What can I do? I pair it with lando-t, or celesteela, or buzzwole, and so on because that's what you do when you're teambuilding, you cover types other members are weak to. Same with hazards: if I'm worried the defensive capabilities of a mon will be compromised with stealth rock, I'm gonna run hazard support. The only criticism it gets here is that it doesn't pair well with Tapu Fini, but there's still Zapdos, Latios, and Excadrill (inb4 stacking weaknesses is literally suicide) who all pair with it just fine.

Having to run hazard removal as a necessity is a burden. I won't say that it's a bad thing because hazards always a bitch to deal with, but trying to brush off the "I lose 25% of my HP every switch" as "oh I can just run hazard removal" is trying to sugarcoat the burden on teambuilding. Zapdos and Excadrill are good mons in this meta (I can't say the same for Latias because of how many important weaknesses she's carrying) but Zapdos itself has a rocks weakness and Excadrill is uncomfortably doubling up. I mean, Tapu Fini also works fine with Volcanion (As long as your team also has other things to deal with that stupid rooster), it's just that Tapu Fini doesn't really do much besides Taunting and Defogging.

You've made no arguments except that it has weaknesses (it has three, two of which are covered by type immunities) and that it's weak to stealth rock. You said it can't OHKO Manaphy at all when I literally just mentioned is best set, Bloom Doom, and you had to look up what moves it gets.

Also, since when did being weak to Stealth Rock not count as an argument? Kyurem-B is solidly OU even though it's faster than Volcanion, still has two great STABs, and has a higher BST- in fact, it shares a lot of similarities, including a massive attacking stat and inability to be properly walled by the vast majority of OU, with Volcanion. (Volcanion probably has a better movepool, though.) So what makes it acceptable in OU? I don't know, vulnerability to all three hazards but Stealth Rock in particular?

Also, you said Manaphy could be checked by Volcanion. Checking usually means switched in after your opponent plays it correctly and then forcing a switch/shoving it out through sheer damage or exposing a weakness, correct? Yeah, uh, those damage calcs show that that's a fantasy, and I'm pretty sure that unless you managed to get Sticky Web out on the field first, Volcanion runs the risk of being OHKO'd.

I'm fairly confident you've never used or faced Volcanion much at all.

I did. It failed miserably. I'll end it at that. (It wasn't running Earth Power somehow so I forgot about the Earth Power move tutor.)

You realise that literally just confirms that it's not a flying, steel or poison type, right? Looking through the tier list, over half the ou tier fits the exact same description, I'm not sure why this is the crux of your entire argument.

There's a difference between "vulnerable to every entry hazard" and "loses 25% of HP every time I switch in to the most common entry hazard unless I always have my Defogger on deck." The Charizards circumvent this problem by being very strong (Or Charizard-Y just starts things off as a lead), Volcarona is an amazing setup sweeper when done right, and Alolawak has three immunities and access to the game's strongest vanilla Flare Blitz with a Thick Club. Tornadus has Regenerator, Thundurus has Prankster and great stats all around in a great distribution, and Kyurem-B has no real defensive counter in OU- but Volcanion just doesn't offer comparable reward for losing 25% of its HP on every switch. That's a shame too, because it has such good defensive stats and, excluding the rock weakness, reasonably bypassable weaknesses. And don't say "B-b-but mah super great dual STABs," Volcanion can only use one move per turn like the rest of the Pokedex and there's a really good bulky water introduced this generation that giggles at both of the aforementioned STABs.

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 236-278 (78.1 - 92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 214-254 (70.8 - 84.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 214-252 (70.8 - 83.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 223-263 (73.8 - 87%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The sad part is that none of these situations (Except Dugtrio, but fuck Dugtrio) would actually kill Volcanion outright or even have the chance of doing so if it wasn't for that Stealth Rock weakness, so in a vanilla setting and the appropriate move, you'd literally win all of those straight up- but you don't, not when Stealth Rock is in play. So, yeah, sure, I guess Volcanion is a "great offensive tank," just make sure you Defog/spin away everything before you use him or else you lose a fourth of your health at minimum.

tl;dr: Great STABs, but can be played around rather easily, coverage options are interesting and fully capable of surprise factor, hazard weakness is a real drag on teambuilding, would probably requires more effort to play well than usual because of it.

 

[Vert]

your post is wrong on so many levels.

volcanion is b rank because it is stupidly hard to switch into. steam eruption / fire blast / sludge bomb / earth power is what you should be running which is pretty much impossible to switch into, especially in this meta. it gets plenty of opportunities to get in due to its typing and water absorb. i would try playing a little bit with volcanion yourself because what you said about it being easy to play around....yea if anything it's stupidly hard to play around. bloom doom is trash tbh cuz you might as well spend your time killing shit with specs than wasting your time with a situational z-move.

the rest of your argument was hazards and pointless calculations. i think you need to find some matches with volcanion because it's clear you're just theorymoning out of your ass.

 

[GnuGnu]

I'm really liking Scarf Volcanion right now, and I think it has merit outside of surprise factor (although that certainly helps). Volcanion's STAB moves have such high BP and his sp. atk stat is great, so the lack of boosting item doesn't hurt Volcanion as much as it does hurt some other weaker scarpers. It still OHKO's a lot of frail stuff, and still puts large dents into a lot of things (and Steam Eruption is always so annoying to switch into). But the extra speed gives it the ability to out speed and kill a lot of unsuspecting 'checks', and can even do a late game clean sometimes. Fire/Water with Water Absorb is actually quite good as long as you cover its weaknesses with team-mates, and I find it actually synergies well with quite a few things.

Call me crazy, but I wouldn't be surprised if Scarf becomes one of its main sets.

 

[pika pal]

I don't think Volcanion's defensive typing can be THAT bad when Landorus-T, one of the most splashable mons in the game, is outright immune to two of those weaknesses. Volcanion's unique typing makes it a mon that goes into quite a few unique cores, with it practically being a check to Fire/Water/Grass cores by itself. The Burn nerf does reduce Steam Eruption's stupidity as a wear-and-tear with burns, but it's still absurd power that physically bias checks REALLY have to be wary of when trying to switch into it even if they can take the power it puts out.

It's not particularly founded on anything right now, but something in me feels like Volcanion's a mon that MIGHT see a pick up later where something causes a meta shift, whether it's returning megas, some new mons gaining ground to check Lando-T or Metagross or Tapu Lele or Ash-Greninja or (insert other big mon here) that Volcanion matches well against, or perhaps he deals well with a bunch of stuff that checks those. Volcanion's an interesting case to me because he has one of the most unique performances and builds in OU without it either being stupid powerful or an odd gimmick like Mimikyu's Disguise, so he has the potential to see much more unique reaction to different metagame trends.

 

[JTD783]

One issue Volcanion has is being trapped by something that is a huge problem Dugtrio. Duggy is one of stall's best countermeasures to Volcanion and most good stall teams run Duggy. I'm not saying that Volcanion sucks because of this; rather, it should be noted that Volcanion should never be one's only good answer to stall.

In terms of meta trends, the lowered frequency of Lati usage is very nice, and Tapu Fini's reliable defog support makes rocks damage less problematic.

Also,

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 222-262 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 378-446 (121.5 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Volcarona (the Firium Z set) can't KO Volcanion with +1 HP Ground unless rocks are up, while specs Volcanion OHKOs Volcarona despite the +1 boost. If you run Grassium Z Volcanion then Steam Eruption does 80-96% to +1 Volcarona but that's in range of several priority moves to revenge kill it should Volcanion go down. Also, Volcarona rarely sets up without taking damage, so the fact that Grassium Z Volcanion can't OHKO +1 Volcarona may not be a major concern.

Adding on to Sun King's mention of Megagross, it's definitely top 5 or higher in OU atm and every team needs some way of handling it. This can be tough since its coverage is excellent. Mega Scizor works on bulky offense, and balance/stall seems pretty reliant on Skarm to beat it (pray it doesn't have Tpunch!). Lando-T checks Meta, but Lando checks so much in the meta that wearing it down isn't a major challenge, especially with opposing Lando-Ts carrying HP Ice a lot. This thing can punch holes or get a kill almost every time it comes in; very few mons reliably take Meta on. Essentially, if you don't have Lando-T, Skarm, Ferrothorn, Celesteela, or Mega Scizor, you have no safe switch-ins. God forbid a Magnezone is paired with it.

Of course, Mega Metagross isn't nearly as centralizing as Lando-T, but Lando-T is essential to OU because the amount of mons that would become extremely threatening (Zard X, Excadrill, etc) in its absence would be insane. Tapu Lele, our other S, is more of an issue than Mega Metagross and doesn't seem to improve the meta from a skill perspective. Metagross is in between. It doesn't make the meta better or worse in my opinion; it's just there, and it's really good. Sure, it can be hard to deal with, but I think there are far worse offenders running around right now cough Dugtrio/arena trap cough.

 

[Sun King]

Is it just me, or does anybody else think that Mega-Metagross is not only EVERYWHERE, but kind of a pain in the ass to deal with? The mechanics change made it SIGNIFICANTLY better this gen, and while it has answers, I find it to be a threat to a huge majority of teams.

Idk, maybe I'm being stubborn, but I've found Megagross to be a huge thorn in team building, and I often have to dedicate a counter to him alone.

Just something to pay attention to moving forward, I guess.

EDIT: Obviously, I know where it is on the VR. I'm trying to avoid using the B-word, so I'm being a little coy with my words. I think Megagross has become really centralizing.

 

[bb skarm]

Just started playing pokes again. Can somebody lend me a sample team and just give a quick overview of the meta and how and what changes made some pokes fall in favor of others. Thank u.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

your post is wrong on so many levels.

volcanion is b rank because it is stupidly hard to switch into. steam eruption / fire blast / sludge bomb / earth power is what you should be running which is pretty much impossible to switch into, especially in this meta. it gets plenty of opportunities to get in due to its typing and water absorb. i would try playing a little bit with volcanion yourself because what you said about it being easy to play around....yea if anything it's stupidly hard to play around. bloom doom is trash tbh cuz you might as well spend your time killing shit with specs than wasting your time with a situational z-move.

the rest of your argument was hazards and pointless calculations. i think you need to find some matches with volcanion because it's clear you're just theorymoning out of your ass.

I think Volcanion likes being able to switch its moves though, especially in this meta where his mediocre speed still allows it to outspeed most of the stuff that switches into it to stomach an attack ; this is why I myself proposed Volcanion to move to B+ in the VRs thanks to Bloom Doom, and Toxapex is not as common as Tapu Fini, which is the reason to use Bloom Doom imo. I'm not specialist so other than that, you're 100% right about Volcanion being very hard to play around.

 

[yuukafu]

and I often have to dedicate a counter to him alone.

Mega-Metagross has ONE counter - Mega-Scizor. Everything else gets destroyed by a coverage move. Usually, the Metagross user can put the coverage move he needs for his team, if his team can easily pressure Ferrothorn/Heatran, then Metagross doesn't run Hammer Arm but another coverage move. If your team needs those gone, you run it or Earthquake and destroy what is likely the only answer to Metagross in the first place. Its versatility is ridiculous and the only other mega you would run rn is mega scizor and you run THAT to counter metagross in the first place, since Scizor isn't a great fairy check anymore thanks to Psychic Terrain...

In Gen 6 Metagross was paralyzed by Clef, pressured before it could Mega Evolve, didn't have psychic terrain support for a ridiculous Zen Headbutt, a slower meta with faster megas (Lopunny, Manectric) gone, sand teams are also disappearing which troubled it...

I think it's a fairly ridiculous mon

 

[TURBODERP]

Mega-Metagross has ONE counter - Mega-Scizor. Everything else gets destroyed by a coverage move. Usually, the Metagross user can put the coverage move he needs for his team, if his team can easily pressure Ferrothorn/Heatran, then Metagross doesn't run Hammer Arm but another coverage move. If your team needs those gone, you run it or Earthquake and destroy what is likely the only answer to Metagross in the first place. Its versatility is ridiculous and the only other mega you would run rn is mega scizor and you run THAT to counter metagross in the first place, since Scizor isn't a great fairy check anymore thanks to Psychic Terrain...

In Gen 6 Metagross was paralyzed by Clef, pressured before it could Mega Evolve, didn't have psychic terrain support for a ridiculous Zen Headbutt, a slower meta with faster megas (Lopunny, Manectric) gone, sand teams are also disappearing which troubled it...

I think it's a fairly ridiculous mon

If Rocks aren't up (which obviously isn't a given), mixed Mandibuzz walls the living crap out of Mega-Meta. If you go more Phys Def, Mega Meta needs to go for the Ice Punch on the switch to 2HKO (Mash means you can roost up).

But hazard control isn't guaranteed sooooo yea.

 

[Sun King]

Mega-Metagross has ONE counter - Mega-Scizor. Everything else gets destroyed by a coverage move. Usually, the Metagross user can put the coverage move he needs for his team, if his team can easily pressure Ferrothorn/Heatran, then Metagross doesn't run Hammer Arm but another coverage move. If your team needs those gone, you run it or Earthquake and destroy what is likely the only answer to Metagross in the first place. Its versatility is ridiculous and the only other mega you would run rn is mega scizor and you run THAT to counter metagross in the first place, since Scizor isn't a great fairy check anymore thanks to Psychic Terrain...

In Gen 6 Metagross was paralyzed by Clef, pressured before it could Mega Evolve, didn't have psychic terrain support for a ridiculous Zen Headbutt, a slower meta with faster megas (Lopunny, Manectric) gone, sand teams are also disappearing which troubled it...

I think it's a fairly ridiculous mon

I mean, Mega Metagross has always suffered 4MSS, so I can understand the argument that you can't beat the entire metagame with one set. I do think, though, that it places a tremendous pressure on the team building process to carry multiple checks/a soft counter to him.

In some aspects, I think--and I'm aware this is a lofty comparison to make--Metagross is similar to Aegislash in that it's guaranteed to chunk ANYTHING once it's in, which isn't hard to do in this metagame. The number of things it flat out OHKOs or KO's with very little residual damage makes it capable of shifting momentum in a match without much sacrifice.

Honestly, in a meta with the Tapus running rampant, it becomes so much better. It can be really hard to burn or paralyze with all of the Tapu Finis running around, and as mentioned, it can also hit really hard with Psychic Terrain up (which it so often is). Electric Terrain can boost the power of its Thunderpunch, and Grassy Terrain gives it longevity and cuts Earthquake's power in half.

Idk...it just sort of seems like an "Easy Button" in this meta..

 

[astroshagger]

I mean, Mega Metagross has always suffered 4MSS, so I can understand the argument that you can't beat the entire metagame with one set. I do think, though, that it places a tremendous pressure on the team building process to carry multiple checks/a soft counter to him.

In some aspects, I think--and I'm aware this is a lofty comparison to make--Metagross is similar to Aegislash in that it's guaranteed to chunk ANYTHING once it's in, which isn't hard to do in this metagame. The number of things it flat out OHKOs or KO's with very little residual damage makes it capable of shifting momentum in a match without much sacrifice.

Honestly, in a meta with the Tapus running rampant, it becomes so much better. It can be really hard to burn or paralyze with all of the Tapu Finis running around, and as mentioned, it can also hit really hard with Psychic Terrain up (which it so often is). Electric Terrain can boost the power of its Thunderpunch, and Grassy Terrain gives it longevity and cuts Earthquake's power in half.

Idk...it just sort of seems like an "Easy Button" in this meta..

Why is everyone whining about Metagross again?

If you want to complain, complain about Lele. Mega Metagross has always been strong but Lele if anything at all is the one exacerbating the issue. I see your point about how easy it can chunk things but it's not even close to the realm of Aegi due to its lack of offensive unpredictability. Everyone knows what Metagross does and just like last gen people will adapt to it.

Stop clamoring and insinuating it needs a suspect when there are more broken things running around and the Gen VII tier is still young as f.

 

[Dragontamer]

If Rocks aren't up (which obviously isn't a given), mixed Mandibuzz walls the living crap out of Mega-Meta. If you go more Phys Def, Mega Meta needs to go for the Ice Punch on the switch to 2HKO (Mash means you can roost up).

Erm... No. Ice Punch gets walled by Mandibuzz. Mega-Meta requires Ice Punch on the switch AND Stealth Rocks to KO Mandibuzz.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz: 168-198 (39.9 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recover

STAB Foul Play from Mandibuzz is a gross threat, so Mega-Metagross is likely switching out. But unless Metagross gets the +1 from Meteor Mash, its basically never going to beat Mandibuzz's roost.

Worse still:

+1 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 356-420 (118.2 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If Metagross gets +1 before the Foul Play, Mandibuzz's foul play KO's itself. So yeah, Physical Mandibuzz is a great counter to Metagross. It pretty much only loses to Meteor Mash Hax (on the switch) followed by Ice Punch.

-----------

If you want to complain, complain about Lele. Mega Metagross has always been strong but Lele if anything at all is the one exacerbating the issue.

Honestly, I'm using Mega Metagross and I'd have to say that Mega Metagross is a stronger option than Lele right now. I like the Zen-Headbutt power-up from Lele, but remember that Metagross can't run Bullet-Punch due to Lele's prominence right now.

Just started playing pokes again. Can somebody lend me a sample team and just give a quick overview of the meta and how and what changes made some pokes fall in favor of others. Thank u.

If you're coming in from Gen6, then the story is basically:

* RIP Talonflame: never forget the Gale Wings nerf
* Gengar is nerfed to the ground: gets Cursed Body instead of Levatate
* RIP Prankster. 33% chance for confusion to self-hit, all Dark Pokemon are immune to all Prankster attacks. Swag-Play is dead. 50% speed off of Thunder-Wave / Paralysis now.
* All status have been nerfed except for Poison. Sleep is 1-3 turns, Paralysis is 50% speed, Burn only deals 1/16th dmg per turn.
* Tons of Megas are gone: Lopunny, Mawile, Medicham are straight up unavailable.
* Tapu Lele is immune to priority due to auto-psychic terrain. And for the next five turns... so is every grounded Pokemon. Have a way to deal with Psychic / Psyshock / Moonblast / Shadow Ball Scarf Lele (and its speedy grounded partners: Mega-Metagross and Pheremosa) without using Priority like Sucker Punch or Bullet Punch.
* Use Lightningrod Alolan Marowak. Immunity to Fighting / Normal / Electric covers a lot of Volt-Switch teams and Pheremosa. Thick Club hits hard with STAB Shadow Bone.
* Run Poison Jab / Sludge Bomb on random things, its suddenly a good move because of all the fairies that are running around... even more so than Gen6.
* New Weather setters: Pelliper / Torkoal / Alolan-Ninetails. A-Ninetails in particular can set both screens in a single turn due to the new move Aurora Veil. Pelliper is OU worthy because it finally gets Roost + Weather setter + STAB Hurricane.
* The Z-moves of note are Z-Bounce from Gyarados and Z-Rock attack for 180BP 100% accurate Continental Crush off of Landorous / Terrakion / Excadrill / Breloom, and Z-Solar Beam from Heatran.
* The main Z-setup moves are Z-Happy Hour Jirachi and Z-Conversion Porygon-Z, which add +1 to all stats. Random people are playing with Z-Hypnosis for +Speed... but I'd argue that Z-Conversion + Adaptability Porygon-Z is the best user of the Z-setup.

 

[Sun King]

Why is everyone whining about Metagross again?

If you want to complain, complain about Lele. Mega Metagross has always been strong but Lele if anything at all is the one exacerbating the issue. I see your point about how easy it can chunk things but it's not even close to the realm of Aegi due to its lack of offensive unpredictability. Everyone knows what Metagross does and just like last gen people will adapt to it.

Stop clamoring and insinuating it needs a suspect when there are more broken things running around and the Gen VII tier is still young as f.

I'm gonna have to outright disagree with you here. Metagross is enhanced by Lele, yes, but it would be incredibly powerful without it. As I said earlier, counterplay can really depend on team matchup: if Misty Terrain is in play, you can't status Metagross; if Grassy Terrain is in play, it becomes harder to KO; if Electric Terrain is in play, you can't Spore it on the switch and it gets boosted coverage.

Additionally, I never said it was AS BAD as Aegislash, but I stated it functions somewhat similarly in the sense that it is guaranteed to get in and make an impact. The truth of the matter is that it doesn't NEED to be unpredictable. It just needs one switch in and it can easily KO or dent whatever is in front of it.

Note that I haven't called it broken; I've merely brought it up for discussion because I've found it to be a tremendous burden on team building.

 

[Gary]

Why is everyone whining about Metagross again?

If you want to complain, complain about Lele. Mega Metagross has always been strong but Lele if anything at all is the one exacerbating the issue. I see your point about how easy it can chunk things but it's not even close to the realm of Aegi due to its lack of offensive unpredictability. Everyone knows what Metagross does and just like last gen people will adapt to it.

Stop clamoring and insinuating it needs a suspect when there are more broken things running around and the Gen VII tier is still young as f.

Except a lot has changed for Metagross this generation so it's pretty unfair to give people shit for having legitimate concerns about Gross's impact on the metagame. The Speed buff for Megas was absolutely huge for Mega Gross in particular because no longer does it have to worry about having to mega on slower Pokemon or resistances. Hell, even stuff like Timid Heatran could outspeed it before a mega and OHKO it with Magma Storm. Now it doesn't have to worry about that, and can freely mega on so many Pokemon without having to take any damage or waiting for the right moment. That on its own, makes Metagross a LOT more threatening. It's not nearly as easy to pressure it.

On top of that, you have so many good Pokemon right now that just completely lose to it, and some of its best checks last gen, Slowbro, Hippowdon, Scarf T-tar, and Suicune are all pretty ass right now, and that mostly just leaves Pokemon like Mega Scizor, Celesteela, and Skarmory that can really switch into it, two of which lose to Thunderpunch and all THREE are trapped by Zone. Mega Scizor is also not the greatest Pokemon in general at the moment regardless of what people are saying about it, but it's useful because it's like the only thing in the tier that can reliably handle every Metagross set. And then of course you have Tapu Lele which gives its STAB Zen Headbutt an immense amount of power, and Tapu Bulu which pairs wonderfully with it and lets it 1v1 Chomp and Lando-T with Grassy Terrain up if it packs Ice Punch.

Metagross gained a few more checks this gen but all of them are super frail, with stuff like Specs Phero taking a ton from Bullet Punch, and obviously none of the Greninja can reliably switch into it. Did I mention that it's also very bulky for an offensive Pokemon so even super effective hits wont usually kill it unless they're strong? It's not just the typical "this thing is broken because it has no counters", its the combination of its great Speed tier that separates from other Pokemon that usually lack reliable switch-ins, and because of its bulk it's not the easiest Pokemon to revenge either. A well played Metagross is absolutely one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier because its capable of dismantling defensive cores as well as checking so many things found on offensive teams, and outside of RH Lando-T (destroyed by Ice Punch) or Mega Sciz offense has basically nothing that can take a hit from it if it gets a free switch into it.

Not saying Metagross is broken, but saying it's the same as last gen is completely false. Just because its movepool, stats, and typing are the same, doesn't mean that the mega buff, as well as the addition of better partners to support it AND a metagame full of Pokemon it can take advantage of, aren't enough to push it over the edge again. And no, the meta just can't start using Slowbro and Hippo again if outside of checking Gross they are just really subpar in the current metagame, and even then, both of those Pokemon have to be wary of coverage moves. Also, Mega Scizor was the king mega of ORAS, and this gen, its taken a lot of big hits, which keeps it from being as successful at sweeping and limits its usefulness to primarily checking Metagross, which alone should show you its dominance.

 

[Ash Borer]

Just started playing pokes again. Can somebody lend me a sample team and just give a quick overview of the meta and how and what changes made some pokes fall in favor of others. Thank u.

try the bazaar thread. There's some decent stuff there.

 

[Creator of Chaos]

While I'm not gonna agree mega metagross is broken (The meta is young and wait till after lele and gren get tested) alot has changed to improve it. For example it no longer fears switching into clefable due to the status Nerf's. The fast Mega's are gone, hippo sucks and slowbro has competition. Sand has disappeared from the game and with lele about it has little to fear from prioty. Then there mega speed buff and the fairy filled meta that give him free switchs like there going out of fashion.

Like it or not the game has changed immensely in its favour since the things it feared are gone or weakened. It is rightly the go to mega.

Anyway onto other things. I've noticed a decline in rain and buzzwole. I know buzzwole has issues but rain should be really strong right now yet I'm just not seeing it. Any reason why?

 

[HC]

While I'm not gonna agree mega metagross is broken (The meta is young and wait till after lele and gren get tested) alot has changed to improve it. For example it no longer fears switching into clefable due to the status Nerf's. The fast Mega's are gone, hippo sucks and slowbro has competition. Sand has disappeared from the game and with lele about it has little to fear from prioty. Then there mega speed buff and the fairy filled meta that give him free switchs like there going out of fashion.

Like it or not the game has changed immensely in its favour since the things it feared are gone or weakened. It is rightly the go to mega.

Anyway onto other things. I've noticed a decline in rain and buzzwole. I know buzzwole has issues but rain should be really strong right now yet I'm just not seeing it. Any reason why?

Rain just feels really inconsistent. Yeah, Pelipper is an upgrade on Politoed, but it's still not great. Rain also didn't really get an upgrade in its abusers, bar Tapu Koko I guess, who tbh just still struggles against Ferro/Bulu etc who trouble rain. The main swift swimmers didn't get any better, with the plethora of fairies now forcing Kingdra into more 50/50s on move selections. Once (if) all the mega stones are released, having MegaPert might make rain an awesome playstyle, as it was in the very early stages of alpha.

P.S Alolan Raichu is super underwhelming.