Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[AM]

I'm not going to get involved for most of the discussion taking place but regarding the above post.

did Greninja with the move-tutor moves and Mega Mawile need to be banned really?

Yes they were both broken as shit especially when Greninja gained move tutors. More stuff needed to be banned in ORAS anyways cause even ending the tier was largely match up based and there were still a handful of really strong forces both pokemon, ex. M-Lopunny, and mechanics, ex. Thunder Wave, that outside of the smogon politics should've took a serious look at. Bringing back stuff down from Ubers is not a good way to balance a tier. Never has and more than likely never will.

 

[tenkai]

I personally feel that the metagame is adapting to Mega Metagross. Its not nearly as big of a problem as I initially thought it was. I agree with waiting a while before we test Mega Metagross and Greninja. However, I do feel that baton pass is going to stay broken forever and there is no point on waiting to see if the meta will adapt.

1000 times this. Talking about banning individual pokemon, out of what we have left, seems silly because the meta is so new. Look how broken lele looked for a while, and yet now its out of S because PEOPLE ADAPT

 

[Leo]

1000 times this. Talking about banning individual pokemon, out of what we have left, seems silly because the meta is so new. Look how broken lele looked for a while, and yet now its out of S because PEOPLE ADAPT

I wouldn't call the meta 'so new' anymore bc it's been over 2 months already and the meta is already kinda settling with Metagross being the go-to pick as a Mega for offense, Lando-Fini cores being the new standard backbone for offense (kinda like Latios Keldeo Lando last gen) and Steel types rising in general due to Lele. Personally I don't think neither Meta nor Greninja are unbeatable or extremely hard to prepare for (or at least not as hard to deal with as they seem on paper) but I think Metagross isn't healthy for the meta because it literally outshines most of the other megas we have available. Most competitive teams (I'd say 99% of the time) have 1 mega and now that we have only a few to pick from Meta usually ends up being picked for being the most splashable on Offense which is arguably the dominant playstyle atm. I don't think Mega Bee and Mawile are going to change much about this because Mega Bee has a hard time finding its place in a meta where Landorus is everywhere and Pheromosa arguably outclasses it and Maw is going to have a hard time with this Steel heavy meta but maybe some other megas such as Diancie or Medi or Lop could balance it out a bit.

I'm not going to get involved for most of the discussion taking place but regarding the above post.
Yes they were both broken as shit especially when Greninja gained move tutors. More stuff needed to be banned in ORAS anyways cause even ending the tier was largely match up based and there were still a handful of really strong forces both pokemon, ex. M-Lopunny, and mechanics, ex. Thunder Wave, that outside of the smogon politics should've took a serious look at. Bringing back stuff down from Ubers is not a good way to balance a tier. Never has and more than likely never will.

I definitely agree with this. I don't see how the meta would benefit from keeping broken offensive threats in the tier just to keep it 'interesting' and challenge players.
PS: Sub CM Keldeo loses to Unaware Clef and Toxapex which are definitely common on Stall or even staples and Gren 2hkos it on the switch with gunk which is mandatory

 

[Celticpride]

Holy hell this isn't a suspect discussion thread keep that in mind all.

 

[TimG57867]

In an attempt to divert this from becoming a pseudo-Suspect Test thread, I want to ask people's thoughts on the recent tier changes. Namely:

• Mega Charizard Y to OU
• Scolipede to OU
• Salamence to OU
• Volcarona to OU
• Clefable to UU
• Mantine to UU
• Kingdra to UU

For me personally, I must say I am quite surprised Mimikyu didn't drop. While Disguise definitely opens up many zany strategies and sets Mimikyu apart from other setup sweepers while being further augmented by its unique and lovely typing which doesn't leave it vulnerable to Dark or Poison, the current banes of most OU viable Ghost and Fairy types respectively, I feel it suffers from Decidueye syndrome. It's got a cool concept which is gimped by a bizarre stat distribution. I feel a lot of that Sp. Def goes to waste on Mimikyu who'd much rather be faster so that he nail as many things as possible without being forced to rely on Shadow Sneak. I can't help but feel that new toy syndrome has been carrying it for a while and would be shocked to see it maintain OU usage for another month, especially with C+ viability that not many are disputing.

And on the flipside I am pleasantly surprised to see Volcarona grace OU again. I knew Zard-Y would return in no time but Volca? It's a feat I don't think it's pulled off since its introduction in Gen 5. I think it can be attributed to its quick banning getting it some attention and the meta shifting in its favor with it having many Fairy and Steel types that can have a surprisingly hard time breaking it before it sets up, entry hazards being harder to keep down thanks to Fini, and Z-Moves giving its potent Fire STAB that extra oomph.

Are there any threats people feel are priming for comeback/petering out in the current meta?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

that's basically a uu topic but Mimikyu is pretty good for it's unique roles it can offer, best TR setter ever and will soon make waves for mega mawile, but I think it'll be a while before it drops for them if mega mawile TR happens

UU should be blessed with TR as it's cursed with my least favorite forms of stall

 

[JTD783]

Xurkitree is still here, mostly because of Baton Pass shenanigans. BP is annoying as ever, and a lot of teams seem to be relying on Scoli as their only passer (see robopoke's Bazooka squad). However, Ben Gay's team with Mew/Koko as recipients has also made a splash. I think there's a lot of exploring to be done with BP right now, although I say that reluctantly since BP irritates me. Also god help us all once Mawilite is available; BP and Trick Room will abuse the hell out of it.

On another topic, many players have been disappointed in Tapu Fini's performance in SPL as its usage, while high, is offset by its subpar win rate. A fair amount of players have even gone on record saying that "any team that can get away with not running hazard removal" should do so because the meta's best hazard removers for offense/bulky offense (Fini, Drill, Latios) aren't very effective currently, and the opportunity cost of not running a better team member proves detrimental. Keep in mind that this is just talk I've been hearing, but I will say that in my experiences having to control hazards throughout the game comes at the cost of a lot of momentum. Players can adapt to this by focusing more on offensive presence than hazard control, but then people will start stacking more hazards to abuse this. As such, spikes on ferro/gren might see higher usage soon.

If anyone has had experience with running hazard removal-free teams in this meta I'd be interested to hear about it.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

I think Fini will continue to see high usage thanks to it being the best switch in to Ash-Greninja once you know what ninja you're dealing with regardless of what team it's on. I will agree that, aside from that role, Fini has been disappointing thanks to it not doing as much damage as other team mates or Nature's Madness not having a huge impact on the battle. I just wish there where better answers for Ash-Gren on offense :( (Bulu?)

 

[Alphanex20]

With the way this gen has been going it looks like you only need hazard control if something on your team is REALLY weak to hazards (think Zard Y/Volcarona) or if you have a really stall-ish team. Beyond that, I find the threat of Fini (along with certain sweepers like the UBs or nukes like Lele/CB Bulu) just makes it not worth it in some cases to waste a turn getting hazards up, i.e., if you have something like a Lando-T out, do you want to risk your opponent switching in a Lele as you set up SR? Yes that's a really dumb move for your opponent to make, but do you want to take that risk? (especially if you have nothing to take a hit from Lele?) Another example would be something like CB Bulu (which non-Z-move Lando doesn't break at all)--get up hazards and risk it coming in and nuking something? Or expect the switch and keep momentum?

Conversely, take the same scenario--Lando-T in against something--but this time your opponent has a Fini or other Defogger that Lando can't touch (i.e., Skarm, as an example) in the back. Especially against fatter teams, do you want to give them the free switch rather than, say, U-Turn out? Maybe yes, since the Defog gives you a free switch, but it still puts you on the backpedal (and again, your opponent is free to try and expect you to predict them Defogging if they're feeling frisky).

Also Bulu's an imperfect Ash-Gren answer since they like randomly packing Ice Beam (especially if they're not Specs) and love to U-Turn around if they expect a switch.

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

This is stating the obvious, but something is horribly wrong if setting or removing hazards is too risky to bother with anymore.

 

[13_luckynumber]

Has anyone tried to build an Aurora veil stall team? Having effectively +1 Def and +1 SpDef for the whole bulky team seems like a good idea?

 

[guan123]

Has anyone tried to build an Aurora veil stall team? Having effectively +1 Def and +1 SpDef for the whole bulky team seems like a good idea?

Problem is that aurora veil only lasts 8 turns; this is the same problem with rain stall, which is not viable ever since the beginning of generation 6. The aurora veil gets stalled out. (Also of note that aurora veil prevents you from using shedinja without safety googles).

 

[13_luckynumber]

Problem is that aurora veil only lasts 8 turns; this is the same problem with rain stall, which is not viable ever since the beginning of generation 6. The aurora veil gets stalled out. (Also of note that aurora veil prevents you from using shedinja without safety googles).

Obviously you'll have to set the screens again once they wear out but the comparision with rain stall is kinda flawed since having rain dish/ dry skin recovery + halving fire weakness for skarm/ the grass type are far less useful than +1 to both Def

 

[Leo]

Obviously you'll have to set the screens again once they wear out but the comparision with rain stall is kinda flawed since having rain dish/ dry skin recovery + halving fire weakness for skarm/ the grass type are far less useful than +1 to both Def

Aurora Veil can be defogged and Stall doesn't have the same offensive presence as HO so you won't be able to stop your opp from defogging on your face and since you're using Ninetales you're essentially in a 5v6 situation if your opp carries defog

 

[volx757]

.... Keep in mind that this is just talk I've been hearing, but I will say that in my experiences having to control hazards throughout the game comes at the cost of a lot of momentum. Players can adapt to this by focusing more on offensive presence than hazard control, but then people will start stacking more hazards to abuse this. As such, spikes on ferro/gren might see higher usage soon.

If anyone has had experience with running hazard removal-free teams in this meta I'd be interested to hear about it.

This is stating the obvious, but something is horribly wrong if setting or removing hazards is too risky to bother with anymore.

I haven't run hazard removal on a single team so far this gen. Then again, I rarely ever ran it unless using a mon that requires it. Setting hazards is no more risky than it ever was, trading rocks is common and I've seen more t-spikes this gen than I have in a long time.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the hazard game right now. If you're not running any rocks-weak mons, it really is just a huge momentum sap to bring in your spinner, spin, and go out into your next mon. Another trend making hazard removal less necessary is that the most common remover right now (fini) is a defogger, so a lot of the time your opponent is gonna do the removal for you.

i think it's pretty weird how many times my opp. sets rocks, then a turn or two later i set rocks, then a turn or two later they defog. wut? in essence all that happened here is you gave me a free switch on the turn you defogged, and handed over the momentum.

All of this is obviously my own experience and I haven't touched stall this gen, but I'm sure hazard removal is crucial as ever for that playstyle.

 

[Marzbar]

I am interested in how you guys think about the terrains right now. Are there any efforts on further exploiting the mechanics? I feel like it could be really interesting even though I am not seeing a lot of it right now.

With Grassy Terrain everywhere thanks to Tapu Bulu, you could try a Gogoat with Grass Pelt? With the right nature and EV investment and Leftovers (or even Assault Vest) this thing is actually surprisingly hard to kill! Don't believe me? Well everybody is complaining about Mega Metagross and Tapu Lele, so to put it in perspective, neither of those Pokémon can 2HKO Gogoat no matter what coverage moves they have.

And with a scummy stall moveset like Leech Seed, Protect, Milk Drink, Toxic (or Horn Leech and Bulk Up), it can live for days. It can be a mixed tank that wears things down slowly.

I'm not saying it's great, because Grass typing does have 5 common weaknesses. And it would be better in doubles. But it's not the worst idea ever.

Also disclaimer: my 2HKO claim doesn't account for stealth rock and Spikes and meteor mash attack boosts and other stat boosts of any kind and whatever other little factor you can come up with to disprove it :P

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Hazards are much less important than say ubers or last gen which is from the lack of many new pokemon having hazards where before everything learns stealth rocks like blissEly or infernape.

Good choice by game freak overall, might make room for some otherwise low tier people to do some work.

But I think it's helped stall overall being able to keep sash dugtrio/switch all the time

 

[Alphanex20]

Volx757 you hit the nail on the head with removal. With setting, IMO, it's just a question of having something that removers can't beat (ex. Ferrothorn or Z-Heatran can handle Fini) or a setter that doesn't bait in stuff your team struggles with (ex. Landorus-T on a team that hates CB Bulu or Autotomize Celesteela). You are right in Fini being everywhere (and defogging for you), but I think it's more "new toy" syndrome, since Defog is only good if your team really needs the removal and otherwise sucks for offense.

 

[psVoltage]

With Grassy Terrain everywhere thanks to Tapu Bulu, you could try a Gogoat with Grass Pelt? With the right nature and EV investment and Leftovers (or even Assault Vest) this thing is actually surprisingly hard to kill! Don't believe me? Well everybody is complaining about Mega Metagross and Tapu Lele, so to put it in perspective, neither of those Pokémon can 2HKO Gogoat no matter what coverage moves they have.

And with a scummy stall moveset like Leech Seed, Protect, Milk Drink, Toxic (or Horn Leech and Bulk Up), it can live for days. It can be a mixed tank that wears things down slowly.

I'm not saying it's great, because Grass typing does have 5 common weaknesses. And it would be better in doubles. But it's not the worst idea ever.

Also disclaimer: my 2HKO claim doesn't account for stealth rock and Spikes and meteor mash attack boosts and other stat boosts of any kind and whatever other little factor you can come up with to disprove it :P

With so many other tapus running around on most teams, relying on strats like that is very unrealistic. It's the same reason Raichu is buns, you can't expect to keep up your terrain long enough to actually do anything.

 

[Alphanex20]

With so many other tapus running around on most teams, relying on strats like that is very unrealistic. It's the same reason Raichu is buns, you can't expect to keep up your terrain long enough to actually do anything.

The only exception (sort of) is Fini I guess, since you only need the terrain up for a few turns (ex. To get a safe switch in against something that has scald or toxic and/or set up) rather than need it up constantly (ex. Raichu's ability).

 

[hecatomb]

This is stating the obvious, but something is horribly wrong if setting or removing hazards is too risky to bother with anymore.

Well seeing how pheromosa is a thing, its very hard to set up rocks on something that can 1 shot you with ice beam, or get 1 shot by greninja

 

[Colonel M]

Well seeing how pheromosa is a thing, its very hard to set up rocks on something that can 1 shot you with ice beam, or get 1 shot by greninja

Many Stealth Rock users are still very good. In fact, some of them being more offensive like Landorus-T and Alolan Marowak have put a lot more pressure on your common hazard removal users. Excadrill, for example, is being seen more with Focus Sash and sometimes running Toxic. Greninja is one of those scary entry hazard users!

Pheromosa and Greninja don't often lead, and even when they do they often reveal their tricks-of-the-trade too quickly. There are obvious exceptions, but Stealth Rock can still be laid by a lot of Pokemon. Alolan Marowak, for example, fears nothing that Pheromosa has outside of the incredibly rare Hidden Power Ground.

 

[Alphanex20]

Many Stealth Rock users are still very good. In fact, some of them being more offensive like Landorus-T and Alolan Marowak have put a lot more pressure on your common hazard removal users. Excadrill, for example, is being seen more with Focus Sash and sometimes running Toxic. Greninja is one of those scary entry hazard users!

Pheromosa and Greninja don't often lead, and even when they do they often reveal their tricks-of-the-trade too quickly. There are obvious exceptions, but Stealth Rock can still be laid by a lot of Pokemon. Alolan Marowak, for example, fears nothing that Pheromosa has outside of the incredibly rare Hidden Power Ground.

I think that this gen you can't really get up rocks mindlessly. Take Marowak (my favorite Rocker as of late), yeah you could get rocks up early, but against some teams you're better off attacking or using Wisp (if you have it) even if you don't have rocks up yet. Bringing up Greninja, you are right in that it can't lead that well (especially if you aren't running U-Turn) and with Defoggers (mainly Fini) everywhere it generally isn't worth risking the Ninja to get up Spikes if you don't have to. Granted, there are situations where you do want Rocks up fast (against something like Zard Y or Zapdos for example) but, correct me if I'm wrong, there aren't a lot of high-end pokes weak to rocks this gen (in Gen 6 you had Talonflame and Charizard popping up a lot, by contrast this gen none of the Tapus or UBs are rock-Weak).

 

[psVoltage]

I think that this gen you can't really get up rocks mindlessly. Take Marowak (my favorite Rocker as of late), yeah you could get rocks up early, but against some teams you're better off attacking or using Wisp (if you have it) even if you don't have rocks up yet. Bringing up Greninja, you are right in that it can't lead that well (especially if you aren't running U-Turn) and with Defoggers (mainly Fini) everywhere it generally isn't worth risking the Ninja to get up Spikes if you don't have to. Granted, there are situations where you do want Rocks up fast (against something like Zard Y or Zapdos for example) but, correct me if I'm wrong, there aren't a lot of high-end pokes weak to rocks this gen (in Gen 6 you had Talonflame and Charizard popping up a lot, by contrast this gen none of the Tapus or UBs are rock-Weak).

Even if you don't exactly need rocks, it's very good to throw them anyway, specially vs the volt turn fini teams. They have to defog and that's basically a free turn for you to either punish or gain momentum. I think the chip alone is worth always getting up rocks even if they will be cleared, I wouldn't risk staying in on attacks just for that though.

 

[hecatomb]

Many Stealth Rock users are still very good. In fact, some of them being more offensive like Landorus-T and Alolan Marowak have put a lot more pressure on your common hazard removal users. Excadrill, for example, is being seen more with Focus Sash and sometimes running Toxic. Greninja is one of those scary entry hazard users!

Pheromosa and Greninja don't often lead, and even when they do they often reveal their tricks-of-the-trade too quickly. There are obvious exceptions, but Stealth Rock can still be laid by a lot of Pokemon. Alolan Marowak, for example, fears nothing that Pheromosa has outside of the incredibly rare Hidden Power Ground.

im not sure why you wouldnt start with Pheromosa or Greninja vs someone who has a rock set up on their team, its not like they can do much to Pheromosa, since it outspeeds everything and can u-turn even if they dont start with a rock set up. Ive seen a lot of people start with Greninja also cause of its just damage and speed, it also doesnt fear rock users. Unless they run ferrothorn, i dont think even ferrothorn wants to get high jump kicked by life orb Pheromosa though.