Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[Dakress]

I'm pretty sure the other guy mentioned DD Zygarde and Kingdra, even though they're irrelevant

DD Kindra used to be genuinely good back in gen 4, when only Empoleon and Shedinja could wall it. Not sure how viable currently is, considering the Tapus are everywhere and how abysmal it's coverage is (outside of Outrage and Waterfall, it has Iron Head, Bounce and Return.

DD Zygarde is also a viable alternative if you need a naturally bulky Dragon Dancer not crippled by SR. Thousand Arrows is also the only coverage it needs, so it has (in theory) 2 free moves slots where it can have Extremespeed, Dragon Tail, Substitute, Rest, Toxic, Glare or Sludge Wave (because Bulu).

 

[Seth_]

It suprises me that metagross is so popular and lures for it are so rare. Everybody have forgotten that there is wonderful item called shucca berry and wonderful move called yellow magic?

 

[Joycap]

It suprises me that metagross is so popular and lures for it are so rare. Everybody have forgotten that there is wonderful item called shucca berry and wonderful move called yellow magic?

Wait until MegaGross gets suspected, then we'll talk.
Besides, isn't AV also a thing?

 

[pika pal]

What does AV have to do with Megagross? He's a Physical attacker with at best a lure move in Grass Knot maybe, but those targets are neither prominent nor usable AV sets anyway.

 

[Gary]

It suprises me that metagross is so popular and lures for it are so rare. Everybody have forgotten that there is wonderful item called shucca berry and wonderful move called yellow magic?

I mean, there's a few lures that are floating around, but Meta Gross is so hard to lure effectively just because of its variety of coverage options. Chople Magnezone with T-Wave can take on Hammer Arm variants and those commonly run Wave as well, but lose to EQ variants which are far more popular, and Shuca would be a sub optimal choice on Zone anyway because Chople is meant to take on other things as well. Heatran takes a ton from EQ even with Shuca and Hammer Arm variants beat it anyways. Never Ending Nightmare Lele is also a commonly used lure to OHKO Metagross, but it has to hit it on the switch so it's pretty unreliable. The only Pokemon I can think of that can afford to run T-wave and can eat up an hit from it are Ferrothorn and Rotom-W, but both would much rather be running other moves anyway so it's hard for them to fit it on there, and Metagross will switch out vs both of those anyway if it lacks coverage. Most people don't even bother trying to lure it because it ends up being more of a prediction game or wasting a precious item/moveslot than anything else.

 

[Seth_]

I was thinking about shucca jirachi. With icy wind it can be quite effective lure for both metagross and garchomp.

Bue even then i tested it few times, it isn't that great.

Jirachi @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 32 SpA / 168 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Icy Wind
- Thunder Wave

It kinda works sometimes. 32 ev in spa to 2HKO garchomp after rocks, 56 speed to outslow av magearna.

 

[Colonel M]

If you were desperate enough to beat Earthquake Mega Metagross the most optimal way of doing it with Magnezone is with Air Balloon with Magnet Rise anyway. Shuca Berry sounds great for the bluff until you realize there's a much more optimal way of using Magnezone without having to rely on the "surprise" value.

 

[JTD783]

The reason Meta is hard to lure, imo, is partly because it has so many coverage options as Gary said, but it's also that it's in its nature to be tough to lure, being an offensive mon.

What I mean to say is that in most situations you lure something (usually something slower and bulkier) that needs to be KOd in order for your wincon to come through. That's why Lele will pack Z Ghost sometimes. Otherwise, Mega Meta is different because it is the one applying pressure, so anyone playing against Mega Meta can't play against it the same way that they would, say, a Tapu Fini. Meta isn't passive enough where you can get a free boost off against it, Meta is fast enough where something can't use a normal attack on the switch and then outspeed and KO with the lure, and most people are so hard-pressed to safely switch into Meta that it's tough to pack a lure as well.

tl;dr:

fat mons arent as hard to lure because they are forced to take damage by nature and are typically slow; not necessarily hard to switch into tho

offensive mons can be harder to lure since they can outspeed and apply more pressure vs switchins. like you can lure Meta with something but first it has to be fat enough to tank a hit as it switches in and then outspeed and KO, and its not easy to find mons like that. otherwise you pull a Lele and try to smack it on the switchin, which is probably the best option

 

[Joycap]

What does AV have to do with Megagross? He's a Physical attacker with at best a lure move in Grass Knot maybe, but those targets are neither prominent nor usable AV sets anyway.

It's a thing I've seen in lower tiers (RU especially), whether that is as viable in OU (say early XY or something) as there is up in the air. sorry, I didn't make that clear.

 

[Seth_]

AV metagross would be pretty cool in current meta. It is like AV aloan muk but actually good!

But it has one major drawback: opportunity cost of mega metagross. And since mega metagross is god-like no one uses AV gross.

 

[Colonel M]

Let's move on from the Darkrai discussion and the latest of really cringe stuff in my opinion (AV Metagross... *sigh*).

What are the current thoughts on most powerful Pheromosa sets? We have Life Orb focusing on Special and Physical - and physical sometimes takes something like Black Belt to help keep it healthy when using U-turn, Specs is a really good set, Quiver Dance is becoming very threatening, and there's still Choice Scarf.

So let's roll some discussion:

1) What is your favorite Pheromosa set?
2) Which set do you think is the worst to face against?
3) Speed or Attack / Special Attack boost?

 

[Sun King]

Let's move on from the Darkrai discussion and the latest of really cringe stuff in my opinion (AV Metagross... *sigh*).

What are the current thoughts on most powerful Pheromosa sets? We have Life Orb focusing on Special and Physical - and physical sometimes takes something like Black Belt to help keep it healthy when using U-turn, Specs is a really good set, Quiver Dance is becoming very threatening, and there's still Choice Scarf.

So let's roll some discussion:

1) What is your favorite Pheromosa set?
2) Which set do you think is the worst to face against?
3) Speed or Attack / Special Attack boost?

I'm really enjoying Quiver Dance Pheromosa. Vertex was the first to give me the idea to pair Fightinium Quiver Phero with Firium Volcarona, and I've been having a TON of fun with that HO build.

Honestly, the worst to face I think depends on your team. Specs will rip apart frailer teams, the standard AoA has troubles with certain things, but the momentum it provides with a strong U-Turn is hard to deny as annoying too.

I prefer boosting Attack/SpA because it helps you wear down things for other cleaners like Gren, or other sweepers. That said, my teams always have trouble with Speed boosters because that's just how I build. Once again, it's entirely dependent on your team makeup and what you want Phero to do.

Fun as fuck 'mon to use; I think it's a really easy button though in this meta.

 

[Firebird101]

That actually makes me think... why DID Manaphy drop off the last couple of gens? Was the 100-a-piece myths not able to keep up with the power creep? Or was there something more to it?

The power-creep caught up to it but the weather nerf also made Manaphy less borked since it often enjoyed itself in permanent rain.

 

[Karxrida]

1) What is your favorite Pheromosa set?

I've used several sets and prefer any one that contains U-turn. I like being able to use Phero early- and/or midgame, especially since its Speed and power make it easy to threaten opponents and generate momentum.

Can't really answer the other questions because I don't ladder consistently enough to face other Phero, and their answers change anyway depending on what kind of team you're rolling.

 

[Subject 18]

Oookay... Let's not do this "Let's suspect [insert Ubers Pokemon] for OU" thing anymore. Not only is this a really bad time to even think about dropping stuff because the meta is nowhere stable but it's all theorymoning with bad reasons of why it would be "balanced" in OU. It doesn't really promote good discussion and derails the thread.

From here on out making nominations to drop and Uber Pokemon to OU is against the rules of this thread. Thanks and stay on topic.

 

[Hugin]

So, moving on. I'm really worried about the state of stall in the meta. There's so many overpowered threats right now that it doesn't have any room to innovate. You NEED certain roles filled, certain mons walled, and there's so few things that can do that that we end up with a team with 4 mons that are iron-clad requirements and 2 slots that you can pick between like 3 mons to fill. Skill in teambuilding is something Smogon wants to encourage, but right now OU Stall just doesn't seem to reward it at all.

 

[snaildelagate]

Let's move on from the Darkrai discussion and the latest of really cringe stuff in my opinion (AV Metagross... *sigh*).

What are the current thoughts on most powerful Pheromosa sets? We have Life Orb focusing on Special and Physical - and physical sometimes takes something like Black Belt to help keep it healthy when using U-turn, Specs is a really good set, Quiver Dance is becoming very threatening, and there's still Choice Scarf.

So let's roll some discussion:

1) What is your favorite Pheromosa set?
2) Which set do you think is the worst to face against?
3) Speed or Attack / Special Attack boost?

One thing I really like about Pheromosa is its ability to run rapid spin while a suboptimal for a lot of teams option it fulfills so much role compression by being able to deal with hazards on switches. I think Pheromosa might be the best hazard clearer HO teams have ever had since oftentimes these teams had to rely on a lead preventing hazards as the only option. Rapid Spin Phero as long as its not a choice variant is not nearly as much of a momentum sink as long as its target doesn't stay in. It also helps that Phero can threaten out common SR setters like Lando, Tran and Excadrill with its standard moveset which means it can switch in on these guys setting hazards and force them out. Pheromosa is a high-risk high reward spinner that if used correctly does not tank momentum for HO teams which makes it more noteworthy than I think its been credit for.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'm really struggling to fill the hole dugtrio left on stall, I have 2 big holes on shednija stall and it's rough

I really think losing dugtrio will cut the balls off of stall

 

[LeNorm]

So, moving on. I'm really worried about the state of stall in the meta. There's so many overpowered threats right now that it doesn't have any room to innovate. You NEED certain roles filled, certain mons walled, and there's so few things that can do that that we end up with a team with 4 mons that are iron-clad requirements and 2 slots that you can pick between like 3 mons to fill. Skill in teambuilding is something Smogon wants to encourage, but right now OU Stall just doesn't seem to reward it at all.

I'm really struggling to fill the hole dugtrio left on stall, I have 2 big holes on shednija stall and it's rough
I really think losing dugtrio will cut the balls off of stall

I imagine this is a reference to Dugtrio's suspect test. If so, then I don't think it's such a bad thing that stall had to change, as I found stall teams only selected from a very small pool of mons before the suspect test (and always include Dugtrio), and finding new ways of working stall will hopefully make it far more innovative, as the way stall had previously existed is potentially going to be impossible.

Before the suspect test, stall teams were essentially the same as one another, and I don't see how the teams can get massively more repetitive than they have been recently. Hopefully the ban (if it goes through) will allow stall to innovate, and make it a far more interesting and variable part of the meta.

 

[Martin]

Potential replacements for Dugtrio off of the top of my head:

Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure / Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off

Provides a fast trap that allows it to force out things like Lele with the threat of a KOff OHKO.

Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant / Brave Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab / Gunk Shot
- Rock Slide / Pursuit

Switches in on Lele consistently, traps a lot of things, and can help to spread regular poison.

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Superpower / Ice Punch

Nice general trapper, which exchanges power/speed tier of Weavile for actual defensive utility.

Metagross @ Assault Vest / Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Atk / 96 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Pursuit
- Earthquake / Bullet Punch / Stealth Rock
- Zen Headbutt / Stealth Rock

Switch-in to Lele etc. that can trap and give generally useful utility. Helps circumvent stuff like Specs Latios too. If Lefties>AV, EVs will need re-adjusting

There's more but I'm lazy+in a rush.

Do not use:

Both of these mons are forced excuses to use Arena Trap and they are both bad. Diglett stall is arse, Trapinch stall is even worse.

 

[Hugin]

I imagine this is a reference to Dugtrio's suspect test. If so, then I don't think it's such a bad thing that stall had to change, as I found stall teams only selected from a very small pool of mons before the suspect test (and always include Dugtrio), and finding new ways of working stall will hopefully make it far more innovative, as the way stall had previously existed is potentially going to be impossible.

Before the suspect test, stall teams were essentially the same as one another, and I don't see how the teams can get massively more repetitive than they have been recently. Hopefully the ban (if it goes through) will allow stall to innovate, and make it a far more interesting and variable part of the meta.

I meant that this was the case pre-suspect and I don't see either result seriously changing matters. When an offensive mon gets banned, people have to make whole new teams without it. Dugtrio might be going away, and people are looking for alternative trappers for the same team. That's not a healthy place for stall to be in.

 

[Sun King]

I meant that this was the case pre-suspect and I don't see either result seriously changing matters. When an offensive mon gets banned, people have to make whole new teams without it. Dugtrio might be going away, and people are looking for alternative trappers for the same team. That's not a healthy place for stall to be in.

This I see as more of a testament to Sable's efficacy, honestly. The reason the typical stall team looks identical to the others is because you lose so much by not having Sableye. I'd agree it's not a great place for stall to be in, but that's more or less what we (defensive players) are forced to use to be as competitive as possible. Banning Sableye (NOT what I'm advocating) would force the entire play style to change. That said, I don't think we're ever going to see stall as diverse as I remember it being when I learned to use it (XY) due to the sheer number of huge threats in the meta. Stall is always a reflection of what the metagame in general looks like because it is designed to counter the meta, rather than overpower it.

 

[Ema Skye]

What are you guys using to beat Automonize Celesteela?

I've been building for hours tonight and haven't come up with anything that doesn't lose to it. The only thing that comes to mind is Zapdos, but I can't fit Zapdos into everything I build.

 

[ian smart]

What are you guys using to beat Automonize Celesteela?

I've been building for hours tonight and haven't come up with anything that doesn't lose to it. The only thing that comes to mind is Zapdos, but I can't fit Zapdos into everything I build.

Magnezone can trap it and lives a flamethrower.

 

[Hugin]

What are you guys using to beat Automonize Celesteela?

I've been building for hours tonight and haven't come up with anything that doesn't lose to it. The only thing that comes to mind is Zapdos, but I can't fit Zapdos into everything I build.

It's actually slow, so any base-100 scarfer can switch in on the Automize and outspeed even max-speed builds. Finding one that can kill while holding a scarf isn't easy, but it's not impossible. Just make sure you don't let it kill anything, once it starts picking up Beast Boosts you're screwed.

Fun fact though, Scarf Terrakion with 8 SDef EVs can come in with rocks, CC, take any hit at -1, and kill.