Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3

Status
Not open for further replies.
Gary

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Third edition of the meta discussion thread! The sexualized cockroach herself, Pheromosa, has just been banned from OU. Much like the previous versions, the rules here are pretty relaxed, but please no theorymoning. Mega Medicham was just released yesterday, which should certainly shake things up quite a bit, and with Pheromosa leaving, the meta is definitely about to go through a pretty big shift. Lots to discuss!

Go wild.
 
Is there any way we could suspect multiple mons at a time? From what I read of the BW ban history, this was done then, and it would certainly help speed things up.
 
Toshiro46 said:
Is there any way we could suspect multiple mons at a time? From what I read of the BW ban history, this was done then, and it would certainly help speed things up.
Click to expand...

We tried doing this last gen with Deo-S, Mega Lucario, and Genesect. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but when u take three extremely influential mons and remove them from the meta all at the same time, it causes a huge shift, and makes it very difficult to properly judge which Pokemon are more banworthy. For example, Mega Luc and Gene were banned, but Deo-S wasn't because its impact on the meta wasn't as obvious without those other two in the tier, but it became very clear a few weeks later that we had made a huge mistake and Deo-S was horribly broken. As much as it sucks having to suspect Pokemon one at a time, multiple suspects are simply not the best course of action especially when certain Pokemon could be more/less broken without the other due to meta shifts.
 
Gary said:
We tried doing this last gen with Deo-S, Mega Lucario, and Genesect. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but when u take three extremely influential mons and remove them from the meta all at the same time, it causes a huge shift, and makes it very difficult to properly judge which Pokemon are more banworthy. For example, Mega Luc and Gene were banned, but Deo-S wasn't because its impact on the meta wasn't as obvious without those other two in the tier, but it became very clear a few weeks later that we had made a huge mistake and Deo-S was horribly broken. As much as it sucks having to suspect Pokemon one at a time, multiple suspects are simply not the best course of action especially when certain Pokemon could be more/less broken without the other due to meta shifts.
Click to expand...
I figured that might be the reason. I'm guessing something like multiple suspect ladders (one without Megagross, one without Gren, one without both; that kinda thing) isn't an option either?
 
Alright! New version is up! To start it off, lets talk about the new monster that dropped recently, Mega Medicham. Ive been trying it out recently, and ive been in love. It has no real switch-ins besides Mega Sableye and niche things like Phys. Def Reuniclus and Cofag. Even so, electric terrain boosted tpunch does a lot to these guys anyways. Also, while its speed tier isn't fantastic, it is good enough to outspeed threats like Tapu Lele, Lando-T, and Zygarde. It also has fake out/bullet punch to annoy more offensive teams more. My question is, what affect do you think Medicham coming out will have on the metagame? Will Lele go back to scarf beong the most common set? Will balance just die (even more than it was before)? Id love to hear some thoughts!
 
I think it'll bring in dark spam, we have a void of ghost sweepers that can only somewhat be filled by gengar/calm mind psychic pokemon to smack medicament. All of its fast checks are weak to pursuit.

I'm just worried we will have to many top tier megas that make it r/p/s like at the end of last gen
 
well most things apreciate mosa ban since she could beat 90% of the meta 1x1 and sweep from there but i think her ban will affect mostly:
toxapex/a-marowak/fini/mantine/mimikyu-the best answers to pheromosa now will have a drop in usage since they aren't going to check a mon present in 99% of teams, of course they will still are viable, toxapex still walls the shit out of greninja, a-marowak still counters koko and nuke everything(specially on TR with rock head), fini and mantine still can defog and counter keldeo(mantine is a mix between toxapex and fini, but i am 99% sure this mon will drop really fast in the VR). but things like toxapex offense will probably dissapear from existence

starmie/beedrill/buzzwole-this mons not only were checked by pheromosa, but they also were really outclassed by mosa, now starmie is the arguably the best spinner in the tier and beedrill is the closest thing to pheromosa OU will ever have again(sad), and buzzwole under trick room is a pheromsoa with perfect coverage(EQ beating the only mons that can take the fighting/bug/ice combo) while having a higher atk, hgiher bulk, and becoming "faster" under trick room every time he uses hammer arm.

gyarados(mega)/porygon-z/rain teams/choice scarfers-it was really sad to have a speed boosted mon being ouspeeded by a freaking fast wallberaker that could kill your mon and become stronger every kill, now both gyarados and porygon can outspeed the entire unboosted meta and this is huge for them.

slowbro(mega)/slowking/mega slowbro-of course ash-gren and koko still a pain in the ass for them, but they can wall a lot of the meta like metagross, lele(king), lando(mega), keldeo, dd zygarde, zard-x and the newcome mega medicham, with the rise of this mons hoopa-u will rise too, not only because he can counter them, but he doesn't need to worry about a bug mon ruling the tier.

mega alakazam/mega aerodactyl-i don't think aero will have a bumb really, but alaka is the fastest mon the in the tier right now and without his greatest check he can abuse of the awesome new tricks he recived with trace(beast boost/protean/soul-heart/psychc terrain) i hope alaka will rise to A- again.
 
Last edited:
Kutscher said:
well most things apreciate mosa ban since she could beat 90% of the meta 1x1 and sweep from there but i think her ban will affect mostly:
toxapex/a-marowak/fini/mantine/mimikyu-the best answers to pheromosa now will have a drop in usage since they aren't going to check a mon present in 99% of teams, of course they will still are viable, toxapex still walls the shit out of greninja, a-marowak still counters koko and nuke everything(specially on TR with rock head), fini and mantine still can defog and counter keldeo(mantine is a mix between toxapex and fini, but i am 99% sure this mon will drop really fast in the VR). but things like toxapex offense will probably dissapear from existence

starmie/beedrill-this mons not only were checked by pheromosa, but they also were really outclassed by mosa, now starmie is the arguably the best spinner in the tier and beedrill is the closest thing to pheromosa OU will ever have again(sad)

gyarados(mega)/porygon-z/rain teams/choice scarfers-it was really sad to have a speed boosted mon being ouspeeded by a freaking fast wallberaker that could kill your mon and become stronger every kill, now both gyarados and porygon can outspeed the entire unboosted meta and this is huge for them.

slowbro(mega)/slowking/mega slowbro-of course ash-gren and koko still a pain in the ass for them, but they can wall a lot of the meta like metagross, lele(king), lando(mega), keldeo, dd zygarde, zard-x and the newcome mega medicham, with the rise of this mons hoopa-u will rise too, not only because he can counter them, but he doesn't need to worry about a bug mon ruling the tier.

mega alakazam/mega aerodactyl-i don't think aero will have a bumb really, but alaka is the fastest mon the in the tier right now and without his greatest check he can abuse of the awesome new tricks he recived with trace(beast boost/protean/soul-heart/psychc terrain) i hope alaka will rise to A- again.
Click to expand...
Little note; Psychic Terrain doesn't do much for Zam if he traces it, because if he does it's likely already in effect due to Lele's presence on the field and thus it's pretty useless for him.
 
Alolan Marowak is going to take a huge hit in viability without Pheromosa in the tier. With the exception of Magearna, everything it used to check has either disappeared from the meta (Buzzwole, Xurkitree) or has new ways to beat it (Tapu Koko).

Tangrowth got a lot better without having to deal with U-Turns/Specs Bug Buzz, which really hurt. The rise of Greninja also helps it out a ton, as it's one of the most reliable answers to it. Ferrothorn also takes a small buff, as Spike stacking is a lot more viable now without Mosa to spin.

Mega Medicham is going to be incredible, especially on Webs offense. The sheer power is so worth it, and even with the sheer amount of fairies in OU, it still hits hard; HJK can 2HKO Tapu Lele (a 4x resist) after Rocks - 252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 122-144 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Having something that can compete with Metagross will make sure that Metagross is no longer the indisputable best Mega in OU. Speaking of Metagross, it can afford to go without Bullet Punch now, as it doesn't have to worry about Pheromosa coming in for a revenge kill.
 
Toshiro46 said:
Little note; Psychic Terrain doesn't do much for Zam if he traces it, because if he does it's likely already in effect due to Lele's presence on the field and thus it's pretty useless for him.
Click to expand...
i know, but psychc terrain is ver usefull for him, boosting his stab(2KO AV tangrowth) and makes him immune to priority
 
Kutscher said:
i know, but psychc terrain is ver usefull for him, boosting his stab(2KO AV tangrowth) and makes him immune to priority
Click to expand...
But tracing psychic terrain doesn't do anything for him, which was my point.

Welcome to today's metagame discussion thread, wherein we list the OU mons that want to switch into Mega-Medicham's HJK.

1. Gengar.

2. Alowak.

3. Mimikyu.

A shame that all three of them are OHKOed by Zen Headbutt:)*

*Disguise not included where applicable.

Literally everything else in the tier is 1-2HKOed by it except for shitmons like buzzwole and stuff like defensive lando T and Pelipper that get fucked by bolt beam punches anyway
 
Well guys, I've been lurking for a kinda long while, but I really gotta say...

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

Banning Mosa was absurdly good for the meta IMO, since I really enjoyed the ladder without it (even if I'm not good enough for getting reqs usually). Now the question is: what's first? the chicken (M-Meta) or the Egg (Gren)?

I think those are equally unbalanced and while they surely have a few answers (Tangrowth immediately comes to my mind), they are still kinda unhealthy centralizing (especially when they go together, basically because Gren can set up spikes in front of a LOT of things and can even beat a few hazard removers, principally Fini and Exca for M-Meta turning 2HKO's into OHKO's and M-Meta being absurdly strong to deal with shit that would annoy Greninja).

Also, I would like to ask... which web user do you usually prefer to pair with M-Medi? I've tried Smeargle, but it annoys me that it's almost always dead at turn 2 and thus, can't set webs several times... Galvantula, while fast, it's really underwhelming in the damage and bulk department (it needs Modest LO Thunder to 2HKO M-Sab and that's considering it doesn't get hit by K-Off or considering that M-Sab will not be CMing) and Shuckle is SOOOOOO passive and M-Meta bait... Heck, I've even tried Masquerain but I just don't see how to combine those setters and not be like 5-6 against some huge threats... Finally, I would add that I believe that Alowak will get back to some defensive spreads to "Check" MMedi, since it can avoid the OHKO from Zen after rocks and then overkill it with Shadow Bone.

Just my two cents! See ya!

P.S.: I just forgot to say... I also think Webs are a risky bet, considering the increased popularity of Serperior!!!
 
I'd kind of like to discuss Pheromosa, because while I'm very happy myself and about 90 other people bopped it with the ban hammer, there while likely be changes in the metagame that have indirectly buffed or nerfed certain Pokemon.

From what I can tell, Mega Metagross and Greninja are going to get even worse, as Pheromosa was almost always a decent offensive check to Greninja and with the rise of the specs set Metagross as well. No longer does Mega Metagross have to run bullet punch on Mosa weak teams to lure the monster. As well as Greninja, who(while it isn't common) will occasionally run water shuriken to beat Pheromosa. Those of you who are running water shuriken or bullet punch on those Pokemon may now have a move slot free, which is very important to the two most famous cases of 4MSS.

And of course since we are on the subject of controversial Pokemon, it is also worth mentioning that Dugtrio doesn't need to run aerial ace on its scarf set to get rid of Pheromosas not running scarf.

Broken Pokemon aside, Ash Greninja(similarly to its protean counterpart) no longer needs to run water shuriken. Basically, a move slot is freed up. While water shuriken is still a viable option(especially against HO), Pheromosa's ban means that ninja Kermit has two move slots where ice beam, shuriken, u-turn, extrasensory, HP electric, and spikes could be placed.

While I don't think Mega Beedrill will be a clearly present threat in the metagame it is worth talking about it too. First things first, yes, it's shit. But the thing is is that the main competitor for poor ol' Barry is now gone. Beedrill is now the fastest voltturner in the metagame, which gives it a small but deserved niche. Unlike Pheromosa, it will have a lot of trouble muscling past its checks and counters, and will by no means be a replacement, at least now there is some small but reason to use it beyond the reason of "lol memes."

Two more Pokemon that I believe will be hit hard by the nerf are Alolan Marowak and Toxapex. Alolan Marowak I won't cover, because above Ema Skye has made a short but detailed post that could sum up anything I could say in only two sentences. Although to add some light to the end of the tunnel, Alolawak is still viable as a stall breaker and trick room sweeper. Onto Toxapex, in my opinion it is a healthy nerf. The urchin no longer is a must on balance for one, and Toxapex offense is now quite possibly become just evidence of a lazy team builder.

Since we're past Toxapex offense, I'd like to move onto what I find to be the most notable buff/nerf with the Pheromosa ban. Hyper offense is now a lot more viable. Firstly, HO no longer has to use Pheromosa itself as a first, freeing up a sixth slot for a team that might need it. But the most important thing is is that the playstyle no longer has to sack one Pokemon to get in a Pokemon with a priority move that might not even kill the thing! That isn't even to mention the restrictions it used to put on teambuilding are now gone, not just for HO but for all playstyles.
 
You really think Greninja (Protean) is going down? Magearna, Toxapex, and Celesteela are new checks or counters to it.
If Protean Greninja is the problem, would Protean be suspected? (I'm not saying protean greninja is broken).
 
guan123 said:
You really think Greninja (Protean) is going down? Magearna, Toxapex, and Celesteela are new checks or counters to it.
If Protean Greninja is the problem, would Protean be suspected? (I'm not saying protean greninja is broken).
Click to expand...
I think it'd just be Greninja, because Ash-Greninja is considered a different mon, right?

Edit: I disagree that Ash-Greninja won't run water shuriken anymore MixItUpTeams . Priority is never a bad thing, and Priority as strong as Water Shuriken late game can straight up win late game. There's still scarfers in the tier that A-Gren would love to hit with it (Nihilego, Lando), and any weakened set up sweepers are also prey to it. Plus, it's a nice extra way to get past sashes on weak mons or subs in general.
 
Toshiro46 said:
I think it'd just be Greninja, because Ash-Greninja is considered a different mon, right?

Edit: I disagree that Ash-Greninja won't run water shuriken anymore MixItUpTeams . Priority is never a bad thing, and Priority as strong as Water Shuriken late game can straight up win late game. There's still scarfers in the tier that A-Gren would love to hit with it (Nihilego, Lando), and any weakened set up sweepers are also prey to it. Plus, it's a nice extra way to get past sashes on weak mons or subs in general.
Click to expand...

Uh, Ash-Greninja is greninja prior to transforming. Banning Greninja would ban Greninja-Ash since that is Greninja until it transforms.
Another pokemon that will be hit hard by the Pheromosa ban is Gengar. Scarf gengar (used to outspeed Pheromosa) is no longer a good set. Specs Gengar is still viable, though. Choice Specs Gengar hits hard with ghost stab (which has few resists: Bisharp is nowhere, Greninja and Weavile are frail, and Tyranitar is less common than it was in gen 6 due to the tapus). Normal mons are also less common due to Mega Lopunny being unreleased.
 
guan123 said:
Uh, Ash-Greninja is greninja prior to transforming. Banning Greninja would ban Greninja-Ash since that is Greninja until it transforms.
Another pokemon that will be hit hard by the Pheromosa ban is Gengar. Scarf gengar (used to outspeed Pheromosa) is no longer a good set. Specs Gengar is still viable, though. Choice Specs Gengar hits hard with ghost stab (which has few resists: Bisharp is nowhere, Greninja and Weavile are frail, and Tyranitar is less common than it was in gen 6 due to the tapus). Normal mons are also less common due to Mega Lopunny being unreleased.
Click to expand...
It's considered a different mon, though, by Smogon. And really by the cartridge games as well. Smogon has separate articles for them (http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/greninja-ash/), a separate place in the VR, and they're separated on PS! as well. The closest analogue would probably be Zygarde vs Zygarde-C, and this would just be a reverse of that situation.
 
Toshiro46 said:
It's considered a different mon, though, by Smogon. And really by the cartridge games as well. Smogon has separate articles for them (http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/greninja-ash/), a separate place in the VR, and they're separated on PS! as well. The closest analogue would probably be Zygarde vs Zygarde-C, and this would just be a reverse of that situation.
Click to expand...
Well they actually banned Power Construct (the ability) so it's not as similar tbf. But yeah idr who said at some point that the Ninjas would be tiered differently thus meaning we would suspect Greninja itself not Ashninja
 
Battle Bond Greninja is treated as an entirely separate Pokemon in-game. Its normal and hidden ability are both Battle Bond. Regular Greninja's normal ability is Torrent, while its HA is Protean, thus if we suspect Protean Greninja, only Torrent/Protean Greninja would be banned, not Battle Bond. I know it's confusing lol. They're basically separate forms but the same Pokemon.
 
Gary said:
Battle Bond Greninja is treated as an entirely separate Pokemon in-game. Its normal and hidden ability are both Battle Bond. Regular Greninja's normal ability is Torrent, while its HA is Protean, thus if we suspect Protean Greninja, only Torrent/Protean Greninja would be banned, not Battle Bond. I know it's confusing lol. They're basically separate forms but the same Pokemon.
Click to expand...
I understand this concept, but wouldn't this mean that you can use both ninjas in a team?
 
Like Toshiro46 said, this is similar to Zygarde and Zygarde-C. If only Ash-Greninja is suspected then banned, then the ability Battle Bond would be banned to cut off Ash-Gren, similar to how Power Construct's ban cut off Zygarde-C.
 
Aqqq said:
No, because the Species Clause is determined by Pokedex numbers: you can't have two Pokemon with the same Pokedex numbers, even if they are different forms. For instance, you can't have two different Rotom forms either (even though they are tiered separately).
Click to expand...
It's like Shaymin. Shaymin itself is allowed in OU, but Shaymin-Sky is Ubers.

Moving on. Mega Medicham has just been released and it feels like the coming of Mega Mawile 2.0 except Medicham isn't slow as hell. This mon is terrifying and its HJK makes you want to run a ghost on every team. STAB Fighting is actually something that OU has been lacking, with the only notable mons being Keldeo and Terrakion. One of them is a Special Attacker and the other is mainly used for scarf purposes nowadays. Lando T just gained even more importance for lowering its attack to somewhat manageable levels and resisting HJK. Even so, it can't stay in because of ice punch and can't take too many hits before being worn out.

Where are the walls? Where are the switch ins?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top