Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v4

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Gary

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Marshadow has been banned after a very short stint in OU, and now three new Megas have been released within the last week; Mega Gallade, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Lopunny. World Cup is also entering its second round. As always, remember these simple rules:

  • No theorymoning. Have some sort of factual evidence to back up your claims.
  • No suspect discussion. This is not the place to talk about potential suspects/bans.
  • Discussion in here is limited to CURRENT metagame only. No discussing future or alternative metagames in here, such as how x mon would fair in a meta without y.
  • No discussing of Pokemon that are currently unreleased, such as Mega Stones, until they are officially usable.
  • No flaming or purposely insulting other members, just like any thread.
Failure to follow these rules may result in an infraction or possibly worse. Have fun!
 
first

mega lop is fun but underwhelming cause it loses to pex celesteela etc. useful vs ho but not much else.

mega gardevoir is just worse lele.

mega gallade is actually a decent mon. still suffers some problems from last gen (not fast enough to sweep, not strong enough to break) but auto speed boost is nice. really good vs fatter teams
 

lydian

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I wouldn't call Lopp underwhelming, not having to run Protect Fake Out is amazing, cuz it gives it Power Up Punch and Ice Punch at the same time, making Mega Loppuny become very threatening at +1 (or +2)

EDIT: I wrote this when i was tired and confused myself lol, i meant Fake Out, not Protect
 
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Gary

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What warranted Hawlucha such high usage in June?
It saw a decent amount of usage on a certain rain build that utilized Electric Seed + Tapu Koko, which raised its Defense in terrain and made it hard to revenge kill with priority. Its ability to set up on and take advantage of common rain checks such as Ferrothorn and Tangrowth is very useful, allowing it to function as a great late-game cleaner because of the Unburden boost. Its STABs in general are very difficult to wall reliably at +2, and it is able to run coverage such as Stone Edge for Zapdos or Drain Punch to keep it from being revenged/worn down while it sweeps.
 
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I wouldn't call Lopp underwhelming, not having to run Protect is amazing, cuz it gives it Power Up Punch and Ice Punch at the same time, making Mega Loppuny become very threatening at +1 (or +2)
M-Lopunny didn't run protect last generation to get the speed boost. It ran Fake Out which can be dropped this generation for a move like PuP or even Encore which works well with Tspikes taking on fatter teams. However, Fake Out is still a useful move providing chip and last resort priority for mons that could potentially sweep you otherwise, so it's not an option that should just be brushed aside. TBH at this moment I'm almost leaning towards Encore being my favorite move to go along with Return / HJK / Ice Punch (or beam if you're one of those people).
 
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Ropalme1914

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I wouldn't call Lopp underwhelming, not having to run Protect is amazing, cuz it gives it Power Up Punch and Ice Punch at the same time, making Mega Loppuny become very threatening at +1 (or +2)
I don't remember people really running Protect on it, 105 pre-mega is already a solid speed tier and Fake Out basically already did that.
 
Do you think we're going to see M Gardie+Lele Psyspam? Is most definitely worse than M Zam, but people might use it. Also is M Medi or M Gallade + Lele feasible?
 
I'm really running into a problem with rain teams while laddering in OU. Are there even any counters to pel/pert outside of choice scarf shaymin right now?
Energy Ball Mega Zam(Trace), Scarf Gren with Grass knot for M Pert. anything that changes the weather(Char Y, Tyranitar, Alolan Ninetales etc). Other rain abusers like Mantine, Ferro, M Scizor. Pokemon with thunder. Stuff like that. General skill.
 
Do you think we're going to see M Gardie+Lele Psyspam? Is most definitely worse than M Zam, but people might use it. Also is M Medi or M Gallade + Lele feasible?
No for Gardevoir. Mega Zam + Lele spam already isn't very good, but Mega Gardevoir + Lele is even worse. They share a typing that has a common weaknesses, and both have just about no way to deal with steels at all. In addition, they're both a bit slow (scarf lele isn't fast enough to stop volcarona). It requires way too much support.
Mega Medi is used alongside lele, but not as a spam core. I'm not so certain about Gallade yet - ultra hype for this gen because it's gotten a lot better and I love it.
EDIT FOR QUESTION BELOW: lol mega mane + koko is notorious for being even worse. stacking a ground weakness and not being that strong in general, along with losing to tangrowth entirely (I've heard overheat does jack to it) just spells bad.
 
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lydian

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It never ran protect, it ran Fake Out.
M-Lopunny didn't run protect last generation to get the speed boost. It ran Fake Out which can be dropped this generation for a move like PuP or even Encore which works well with Tspikes taking on fatter teams. However, Fake Out is still a useful move providing chip and last resort priority for mons that could potentially sweep you otherwise, so it's not an option that should just be brushed aside. TBH at this moment I'm almost leaning towards Encore being my favorite move to go along with Return / HJK / Ice Punch (or beam if you're one of those people).
I don't remember people really running Protect on it, 105 pre-mega is already a solid speed tier and Fake Out basically already did that.
I said Protect on my post but I totally meant to say Fake Out, I was tired, my bad. But my point was, that even though Fake Out is nice for the chip damage and what not, the combination of PUP + Ice Punch is really good imo, we all know what Ice Punch does, and Power-Up Punch allows it to get boosts fairly easily, breaking down Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos (if Discharge doesn't paralyze) and even Fini (Mega Lop can take one Moonblast).
 
first

mega lop is fun but underwhelming cause it loses to pex celesteela etc. useful vs ho but not much else.

mega gardevoir is just worse lele.

mega gallade is actually a decent mon. still suffers some problems from last gen (not fast enough to sweep, not strong enough to break) but auto speed boost is nice. really good vs fatter teams
Ok I agree with you on mega lopunny and gallade but calling a mega Gardevoir a worst lele didn't really have any evidence behind can you elaborate how it is a worst lele
 
Ok I agree with you on mega lopunny and gallade but calling a mega Gardevoir a worst lele didn't really have any evidence behind can you elaborate how it is a worst lele
Well, for one M-Garde takes the mega slot (which is big in a meta that sees Char Y, Lop, and Pinsir so much right now). Also, Psychic Terrain boosted Psyshock at least lets Lele touch some things that M-Garde still can't reliably (AV Magearna and Celesteela). Plus Lele gets Taunt; just a few ways M-Garde is a worse lele
 
Ok I agree with you on mega lopunny and gallade but calling a mega Gardevoir a worst lele didn't really have any evidence behind can you elaborate how it is a worst lele
I know you were talking to him but ill tell you why I think gardevoir is a "worst" lele. tapu lele pretty much has everything and more than gardevoir. it can use a item other than a mega item. (etc, choice scarf so it would be fast.) it has taunt for stall with shed shell when m-garde can't run shed shell. and has psychic surge. and it doesn't really matter that m-garde is more powerful or fast, because it just can run scarf or specs.

EDIT: Just noticed that OrangeGuru posted almost everything I did ;-;. Too quick much wow
 
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bludz

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Gardevoir is not a worse Lele.

They have the same typing, but Lele's Psychic STAB gets boosted whereas Gardevoir's Fairy STAB is boosted (it's also not reliant on Terrain). Fairy STAB is better so there's that at the very least, plus it has a better speed tier. Gardevoir also gets Taunt... not sure why you didn't think it did. It also has Will-O-Wisp as an option which can be pretty decent. Sure Lele is going to be a more viable pokemon because it can use items and is still a powerful wallbreaker, but their roles are not 100% comparable because of which STAB is being boosted. Also Psychic Terrain is sorta shitty for some pokemon and that's why you can't just throw Tapu Lele on any team and hope the synergy will be ok. Gardevoir doesn't have that issue either.

I'm not going to speculate on how good Gardevoir is or will be, but it is not simply an inferior Lele I can tell you that much.

Edit: Also Lele + Zam isn't bad, but yeah I don't think I would use Lele + Garde
 
Gardevoir is not a worse Lele.

They have the same typing, but Lele's Psychic STAB gets boosted whereas Gardevoir's Fairy STAB is boosted (it's also not reliant on Terrain). Fairy STAB is better so there's that at the very least, plus it has a better speed tier. Gardevoir also gets Taunt... not sure why you didn't think it did. It also has Will-O-Wisp as an option which can be pretty decent. Sure Lele is going to be a more viable pokemon because it can use items and is still a powerful wallbreaker, but their roles are not 100% comparable because of which STAB is being boosted. Also Psychic Terrain is sorta shitty for some pokemon and that's why you can't just throw Tapu Lele on any team and hope the synergy will be ok. Gardevoir doesn't have that issue either.

I'm not going to speculate on how good Gardevoir is or will be, but it is not simply an inferior Lele I can tell you that much.

Edit: Also Lele + Zam isn't bad, but yeah I don't think I would use Lele + Garde
Yeah I didn't make it clear in my post that M-Garde will have a spot in this meta. I was focused on providing some ways that Lele is better. It's true that psychic terrain isn't always helpful for a team, especially if running priority like Zygarde's Espeed or Greninja's Water Shuriken. However, with Pixilate's nerf, Garde isn't quite as powerful this gen. It will be useful, but I don't believe it will be something that you just slap on teams (having to decide between Lele, Garde, or something else). That's all
 

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Gallade is interesting as while I first thought, hm if I want power I go straight for medi or speed for lopunny, but Gallade has one thing those 2 don't which is a way to directly threaten Mew with Knock Off. Medi can only really force Mew to roost while Lopunny can kinda screw with Mew through PuP and Encore or just Encore but obviously this is reliant on Mew not wisping and means you might be giving up slots that you'd rather use for other stuff. The main trouble I've had with Gallade is that you really want all of SD / CC / Zen / Knock / Ice, and dropping any usually means struggling against something that's fairly prominent in the metagame, but no mon is perfect and this can be accounted for in your teambuilding. Gallade is definitely better than I initially thought it would be, even if I don't think it will dominate the metagame.
 
Well, for one M-Garde takes the mega slot (which is big in a meta that sees Char Y, Lop, and Pinsir so much right now). Also, Psychic Terrain boosted Psyshock at least lets Lele touch some things that M-Garde still can't reliably (AV Magearna and Celesteela). Plus Lele gets Taunt; just a few ways M-Garde is a worse lele
Also loss of an item hurts M gardie, Specs and scarf Lele can be used well in the OU metagame, so sometimes M Gardie just doesn't have the pure power or speed to match Lele without items when Lele has items. Also Chansey, Psy Terrain boosted psyshock hits that quite hard. I agree with bludz that it isn't just a weaker Lele, Lele has perks, and so does Gardie.
 
Overall Gardevoir and Lele are incredibly similar mons. Gardevoir has a few quirks that set her apart from Lele in the form of more powerful fairy moves and some movepool options (will-o-wisp comes to mind). Though I don't think what Gardevoir brings to the table over Lele justifies a mega mon slot, especially considering the sheer amount of utility brought by Lele as a support mon. Furthermore, considering Gardevoir's role as a stallbreaker, its inability to hold a shed shell most likely makes her Dugtrio fodder. Overall, I feel that Gardevoir may just be the speedier version of Lele that you'll want to pick if you actually don't want to disable priority moves.
 
what i can say about the metagame is that the lele and gallade-mega core is pretty effective. i think the speed boost makes gallade-mega a better threat than last gen and with a boosted zen headbutt it breaks thru alot of traditional walls besides skarm which can be weared down by this core. lele really helps gallade over the edge by helping get rid of fat psychic types and mega sab by virtue of taunt and strong stab in moonblast and strong coverage in z focus blast (for skarm) or another z move or coverage. There are still mons that give this core trouble but i think it will make a great impact in the ou metagame.
 
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