Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v4

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Could somebody inform me why Tangrowth is so good? i never got that because i never play against tangrowth. its ranked so high on vr
 
Could somebody inform me why Tangrowth is so good? i never got that because i never play against tangrowth. its ranked so high on vr
to expand on the above a bit, tangrowth's pure grass typing gives it resistances to ground and electric, and when combined with it's great physical bulk and good special bulk (after Assault Vest) it allows tang to switch into a number of the most powerful/spammable attacks in the tier AND threaten back with utility or a super effective coverage move. It's earthquake is strong enough to prevent heatran from directly switching in, it has knock off to annoy just about everything, and hp fire/ice to nail those things that it's switching into in the first place. So the combination of grass typing, regenerator, good bulk, usable attack, and a great movepool make it a premier pivot and tank, all in one.
 
also it ability to wall alot of the top tier threats like zygarde, lando-t , BB gren,some magearna sets, etc.
this makes it an great addition to bulky offensive teams and other playstyles as well.
heatran plus tang plus tapu fini is a duo that checks alot of the metagame. tang has recently fell in viability a little because it allows in some threats like zard-y mega pinsir on an predicted knockoff mega mawile etc. despite this its a great mon to consider on one of your teams if you need a check to certain threats
 
what is the spread for the new "fast" defog mew people are running nowadays on youtube in tournaments? anyone know ? I know it's Timid.
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 240 HP / 156 Def / 112 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Will-O-Wisp
- Soft-Boiled
- Defog

The EVs hit 290 Speed which outspeed Adamant Zygarde and Adamant Landorus-T, rest goes in Defense for bulk.
 
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Gary

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Some takeaways from my experiences on the ladder and from watching recent tours:

  • new megas are decent but definitely not top-tier
  • spike-stack is effective. Mew's rise makes this less profound and often times setting up multiple layers causes losses in momentum
  • Zard Y and Dugtrio are a threat to every team basically
  • Duggy almost always runs Groundium Z with Sub
  • Bulky offense is often times "5 threats plus Tangrowth", provided that the "threats" have some defensive synergy
  • Sticky Web offense has fallen off and Mega Lop's existence really neuters it
  • SubToxic Tran with Magma Storm is seeing high usage; Bloom Doom Tran is declining
  • Ash-Gren seems to appeal to tour players more than Protean
  • Stall is still very good. SPL Stall seems the most consistent but other variants are decent.
  • Mega Tyranitar is hindered by Mega Lop but still difficult to revenge-kill
  • Mega Manectric is decent but really falls flat against fat teams. Noticeable lack of power.
  • Magearna is more commonly offensive than AV. OTR is not that common and Specs is non-existent.
  • Having one steel-type is almost always needed; two is even better
  • fuck marshadow tbh
  • Bulu is very good atm
  • most common hazard removers on bulky offense are mew and latios; for balance, mew and zapdos; for stall; zapdos and skarmory. spinners are very rare.
  • Lando-T often runs Leftovers to check Zygarde better
  • spikes + tspikes greninja is seeing use
  • suicune + tspikes is lit
  • scarf kartana is reappearing; recent WCOP game showed how threatening SD all-out pummeling kart can be, but also how duggy invalidates it
  • Zard Y frequently runs HP Ice over Focus Blast to target Zygarde and more, paired with duggy to remove tran and chansey
  • TDK's Magearna set (SG, CM, Tbolt, Ice Beam) is seeing a fair amount of use
  • rise of mew leads some people to use Mega Gallade, bc of Knock Off
 
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Gary

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Great post, and definitely summarizes a lot of the recent meta trends that have been going on. I have some to add onto that myself:

  • Rain is still popular on ladder and saw a lot more usage in r1 of WCOP with the introduction of Mega Swampert. Has seen great success overall. Specs Pelipper is becoming more common too
  • Koko set has started running Wild Charge / HP Ice / U-turn / Taunt or Roost with Electrium Z now in order to blast through its conventional checks such as AV Magearna, Mew and Chansey
  • While still used, Rockium Lando has fallen mostly out of favor for Flyinium Smack Down because of its great match up vs stall and fatter teams
  • Volcarona is beginning to move back to Z move sets with some even using Savage Spin-Out for T-tar influx
  • CB T-tar is much more common now than it was a few weeks ago
  • Scarf Lele is easily its most popular and effective set again
  • Clefable is overall much more splashable than it was before
  • Mew's are seen running a LOT of speed now for Zygarde and offensive Lando
  • Gengar is used significantly less
  • LO Tornadus-T has been popping up quite a bit due to its good match up vs teams lacking Zapdos (which isn't as prevalent now)
  • Kyurem-B's Subzero Slammer set can be extremely hard to play around and is starting to see some usage again in WCOP
  • SD SR Garchomp with Dragonium is easily one of its most useful sets atm
  • Greninjas starting to run Dark Pulse again for Mew and Scarf set is a lot more common
That's all I got for now. Nice to see the meta adapting to new things!
 
i feel like stall dominates this gen mainly because duggy traps almost all stallbreakers making it hard to beat if the player plays it right but as stated above the common core of duggy zardy also destroys stall. duggy itself is a just regular mon but its ability arena trap combined with the new z moves boosted duggy's viability from last gen no doubt. last gen it was the core of ttar mega zard-y that dominated most bulky teams. now with the introduction of the tapus ,duggy is the more favored trapper because lati twins arent as seen as much.
 

Gary

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There isn't really a specific thread to talk about potential suspects other than the suspect threads themselves. If you want to voice your concerns, it's probably best just to PM a council member.
 
No I didn't want to voice a concern I just wanted to say that Dugtrio itself in the metagame is a big problem right now. Sorry if it sounded like I wanted to voice a concern.
 
As far metagame trends go, its more stall and offensively oriented than last gen because the introduction of mons such as magearna lele and many more and z moves boosting the viability of lesser used threats from last gen. also suicune has seen lots of usage more than last gen mainly the vincune set plus tspikes or aurora veil or both. balance is used as much because its pretty bad this gen. And thats prob all i have to say for today. n_n
 
Has anyone used mamoswine lately? Kinda looks like it has a good matchup versus allot of the meta rn. Stuff like lando, zygarde, mag, mew, and stall not really having an answer (unless allo) makes it look rather appealing.
Although greninja annoys it.
Just a thought, it looks solid in paper.
 
mamo on ground spam teams is a good mon doubt problem is its pretty slow and prone to being revenge killed and even setup on by certain mons. otherwise this thing is a pretty underated threat. also one of the other reasons its not used is because the mons that threaten it are usually used alot and it falls short in stall matchups and what not.
 

Colonel M

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Really want to talk about this Pokemon and this moveset:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 212 HP / 44 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power

I don't know about others, but this set has given me the most headaches as of late. Even with the addition of Dugtrio to some teams it isn't enough to throttle this thing sometimes - it just is incredibly nasty to deal with behind a Substitute. Bulky Water-types are never safe against this thing because Toxic just screws them over so hard, and Earth Power catches Toxapex and the super rare Tentacruel too. Thankfully Toxic has a chance to miss and so does Magma Storm, but it is the one Pokemon I feel cannot be underestimated in this metagame at the moment. Bulkier builds absolutely loathe this thing and even offense feels a lot of pressure if they have to go to Mew to remove hazards or cripple an offensive Pokemon. Even Chansey isn't a huge fan of this thing because Magma Storm + Toxic is just deadly for it to face.



Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 240 HP / 156 Def / 112 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam / Earth Power / Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog
- Roost

Really cannot deny this thing in the tier either. Mew is very good for a lot of teams, but faster variants of Mew are even more deadly because they can throttle Zygarde easier while also being able to check Landorus-T much better as well. 290 Speed beats Adamant Zygarde (which resides at 289). I feel that Ice Beam still remains its best move to use, though I can't deny Earth Power is better for teams that feel more pressured by Heatran and Volt Switch is still a great move if you feel that you can confidently run it.



Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Fire Punch

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast
- Roost

Dugtrio @ Groundium Z
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Screech
- Rock Slide (pick a fourth move. Seriously).

This is a deadly combination right now. Tyranitar and Dugtrio take care of so many Mega Charizard Y's checks and counters - even on average stall teams - and just can leave a lot of teams wide open to an assault. I think Mega Charizard Y still requires a lot of support and its build path is extremely linear in my opinion (you'll want Mew for your fourth trust me), but it can do incredible against a lot of teams. If anyone says Dugtrio is only for stall teams - show them this post and some WCoP replays to prove them wrong.

Hopefully I can add a little more later on, but a lot of what has been said earlier by Gary and JTD reflect a lot of what I think as well.
 


Really want to talk about this Pokemon and this moveset:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 212 HP / 44 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power

I don't know about others, but this set has given me the most headaches as of late. Even with the addition of Dugtrio to some teams it isn't enough to throttle this thing sometimes - it just is incredibly nasty to deal with behind a Substitute. Bulky Water-types are never safe against this thing because Toxic just screws them over so hard, and Earth Power catches Toxapex and the super rare Tentacruel too. Thankfully Toxic has a chance to miss and so does Magma Storm, but it is the one Pokemon I feel cannot be underestimated in this metagame at the moment. Bulkier builds absolutely loathe this thing and even offense feels a lot of pressure if they have to go to Mew to remove hazards or cripple an offensive Pokemon. Even Chansey isn't a huge fan of this thing because Magma Storm + Toxic is just deadly for it to face.



Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 240 HP / 156 Def / 112 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam / Earth Power / Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog
- Roost

Really cannot deny this thing in the tier either. Mew is very good for a lot of teams, but faster variants of Mew are even more deadly because they can throttle Zygarde easier while also being able to check Landorus-T much better as well. 290 Speed beats Adamant Zygarde (which resides at 289). I feel that Ice Beam still remains its best move to use, though I can't deny Earth Power is better for teams that feel more pressured by Heatran and Volt Switch is still a great move if you feel that you can confidently run it.



Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Fire Punch

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast
- Roost

Dugtrio @ Groundium Z
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Screech
- Rock Slide (pick a fourth move. Seriously).

This is a deadly combination right now. Tyranitar and Dugtrio take care of so many Mega Charizard Y's checks and counters - even on average stall teams - and just can leave a lot of teams wide open to an assault. I think Mega Charizard Y still requires a lot of support and its build path is extremely linear in my opinion (you'll want Mew for your fourth trust me), but it can do incredible against a lot of teams. If anyone says Dugtrio is only for stall teams - show them this post and some WCoP replays to prove them wrong.

Hopefully I can add a little more later on, but a lot of what has been said earlier by Gary and JTD reflect a lot of what I think as well.
Small question: Why are you running Focus Blast on Zardy when you've got Dugtrio? Everything you want it for gets trapped and KOd, no? I'd think HP Ice would be nice to bop Landot and Zyggy
Maybe I'm too tired from working all day in the sun, but figured I'd ask
 
Small question: Why are you running Focus Blast on Zardy when you've got Dugtrio? Everything you want it for gets trapped and KOd, no? I'd think HP Ice would be nice to bop Landot and Zyggy
Maybe I'm too tired from working all day in the sun, but figured I'd ask
That is, in fact, precisely the shift many Zard-Y users have been making. Focus Blast does allow Zard-Y to take care of Heatran by itself, this avoiding a potential sack to get Duggy in, but HP Ice is the better option under current conditions.
 

Gary

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While HP Ice is a fine option, relying so much on Dugtrio to trap T-tar and Heatran is oftentimes not worth hitting Zygarde/Chomp harder. Chomp and Zyg are already very limited to how often they can switch into Flamethrower, especially with Coil Zygarde being almost non existent atm. Focus Blast can prevent Heatran from getting up Subs vs Zard-Y, preventing CB T-tar from Pursuit trapping you, or Mega T-tar from getting a free set up. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of HP Ice, and I really think in this metagame, with Heatran being so prevalent and both T-tars rising in popularity, having Focus Blast is still the most optimal option.
 
While HP Ice is a fine option, relying so much on Dugtrio to trap T-tar and Heatran is oftentimes not worth hitting Zygarde/Chomp harder. Chomp and Zyg are already very limited to how often they can switch into Flamethrower, especially with Coil Zygarde being almost non existent atm. Focus Blast can prevent Heatran from getting up Subs vs Zard-Y, preventing CB T-tar from Pursuit trapping you, or Mega T-tar from getting a free set up. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of HP Ice, and I really think in this metagame, with Heatran being so prevalent and both T-tars rising in popularity, having Focus Blast is still the most optimal option.
If all you're trying to hit is Heatran, why not run EQ? You don't risk hax with it, and nobody is running Balloon Tran

I get that hitting Tar is a thing, but I wouldn't want to keep Zardy in and fish for the Focus when I could just switch in Duggy
 

Gary

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If all you're trying to hit is Heatran, why not run EQ? You don't risk hax with it, and nobody is running Balloon Tran

I get that hitting Tar is a thing, but I wouldn't want to keep Zardy in and fish for the Focus when I could just switch in Duggy
Most Duggy's on Zard-Y teams are Groundium so you can't switch into T-tar. Also, what I'm saying is that if they know you don't have Focus Blast, they have no reason not to just Pursuit trap you and basically kill your Zard-Y. EQ is only for Heatran and just doesn't do enough to T-tar. You need Focus Blast to cover both at the same time without relying so much on Dugtrio to beat them. What's the point of having Dugtrio to support Zard-Y if your Zard-Y just gets Pursuit trapped?
 
Most Duggy's on Zard-Y teams are Groundium so you can't switch into T-tar. Also, what I'm saying is that if they know you don't have Focus Blast, they have no reason not to just Pursuit trap you and basically kill your Zard-Y. EQ is only for Heatran and just doesn't do enough to T-tar. You need Focus Blast to cover both at the same time without relying so much on Dugtrio to beat them. What's the point of having Dugtrio to support Zard-Y if your Zard-Y just gets Pursuit trapped?
I don't wanna get too off topic with this so I'll be brief: I think the situation we're debating is basically FB or hard switch into Duggy. Regardless of whether or not the opponent knows what you're carrying, that is always going to be a 50/50. I would probably rather not rely on FB just because I think it's inconsistent. Other than that, I don't disagree with anything you just said.


Adding on to this thread, how does everyone feel about Physical Koko vs Special?
 
  • Bulu is very good atm
Great post. One think that makes the jolly SD Bulu very good is that you don't even have to worry about revenge killers. You can come in, kill or force something out, and then leave grassy terrain to support the team.
 
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