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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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This was gen 5, and we ended up with that awful Scraggy meta, where we had a Pokemon that wasn't exactly broken but really centralizing and the metagame was horrible. I haven't played UU this gen though, they keep bringing things down to retest all the time so I don't think it would be easy for me to go in and see it firsthand.
Fletchling's 4mss is different than something like Meditite too. Each of its moves handles only one or two things at best, and it really, really wants three specific moves already. It has to choose between multiple moves for just one slot, not like Meditite which could go with Drain Punch and then whatever it wanted to hit in three other slots. It's not going to choose between multiple roles like Swirlix did either (though I have to go from what I heard on Swirlix, I wasn't there for that.) And, of course, if Fletchling does pack something for that specific counter, the games it doesn't face that threat it's going to wish it had Roost.
tbf the only things i'd suspect right now are misdreavus and maybe berry juice + sturdy.
misdreavus not only does restrict teambuilding, it can also rather easily bypass its counters/checks. pawniard/munchlax are rendered useless by will-o-wisp, fletc and vullaby cannot take thunderbolts, scraggy dies to dazzling gleam and porygon will lose if missy is packing NP/taunt. then it's also extremely fast, extremely bulky and extremely strong (especially with steel no longer resisting ghost).
sturdyjuice is basically an easy to abuse combo. imagine this scenario: player A just killed something with, say, bellsprout; player B then sends tirtouga. normally, tirtouga is OHKOed by a grass attack; however, sturdy juice transforms this OHKO into a 3HKO! and that's not the only scenario possible. sturdyjuice basically gives away two guaranteed free turns. for such a fast paced metagame that is lc, i believe this is rather broken.
as for fletchling, i'd not ban it. basically, it works as any other sweeper in LC. obviously, it'll sweep if the foe lacks a counter. i know, fletchling can weaken its counters and then sweep, but scraggy can also do the same, and carvanha, and timburr. it's not like there aren't many viable fletchling counters (a rock type is often enough to stop it, but chinchou is also a hard counter).
misdreavus not only does restrict teambuilding, it can also rather easily bypass its counters/checks. pawniard/munchlax are rendered useless by will-o-wisp, fletc and vullaby cannot take thunderbolts, scraggy dies to dazzling gleam and porygon will lose if missy is packing NP/taunt. then it's also extremely fast, extremely bulky and extremely strong (especially with steel no longer resisting ghost).
sturdyjuice is basically an easy to abuse combo. imagine this scenario: player A just killed something with, say, bellsprout; player B then sends tirtouga. normally, tirtouga is OHKOed by a grass attack; however, sturdy juice transforms this OHKO into a 3HKO! and that's not the only scenario possible. sturdyjuice basically gives away two guaranteed free turns. for such a fast paced metagame that is lc, i believe this is rather broken.
as for fletchling, i'd not ban it. basically, it works as any other sweeper in LC. obviously, it'll sweep if the foe lacks a counter. i know, fletchling can weaken its counters and then sweep, but scraggy can also do the same, and carvanha, and timburr. it's not like there aren't many viable fletchling counters (a rock type is often enough to stop it, but chinchou is also a hard counter).
I wouldn't say SturdyJuice gives you "two guaranteed free turns", radianthero156. Just use Stealth Rock or Spikes, and Bellsprout can then OHKO it with Solarbeam. If you are afraid of Defog and Rapid Spin, use Pawniard and a spinblocker. Bellsprout can also in this example just use Sludge Bomb or Weather Ball to break Sturdy, meaning it merely becomes a 2HKO :)
Just thought i'd chime in with my two cents. If we suspect anything beyond Fletch, Missy, Pawn, or Foo, I will be genuinely annoyed with all of you. If you want to decentralize this meta game i'd take a look at usage statistics. Thanks
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I don't have 1950 coil to vote, but I just wanted to add my two cents. When I was in a losing streak in OU, I went to another tier to clear my head. I made a LC team and done some battles; it was a breath of fresh air. Anyway, I noticed a lot of people want to see Misdreavus be suspected along with Mienfoo, Fletchling and Pawniard. Those are in the top 5 most used pokémon last month (usage stats' page). The other one is Abra, which I think should also be in the mix for being suspected.
I'm only going to talk about three pokémon since I've used them the most. Even though each team after my first I've made has Misdreavus (I've used Gastly before), I think she at least needs to be in the conversation. If she does get pushed up to LC Ubers, that would open more doors for other ghost types in the tier, like Gastly, Frillish, Yamask, etc. Mienfoo is an interesting pokémon, because he has access to both fake out and regenerator. It's a fast pokémon that can deal damage and then get out. I personally love Mienfoo in the tier. If he does get pushed up, I think we will see more Aipom (even though its #8). Abra should also be looked at, because it hits faster than most of the pokémon in the tier and can deal a good amount of damage. Even though its "frail" and the common ability and item is magic guard with focus sash, it can survive at least two hits at minimum.
I'm only going to talk about three pokémon since I've used them the most. Even though each team after my first I've made has Misdreavus (I've used Gastly before), I think she at least needs to be in the conversation. If she does get pushed up to LC Ubers, that would open more doors for other ghost types in the tier, like Gastly, Frillish, Yamask, etc. Mienfoo is an interesting pokémon, because he has access to both fake out and regenerator. It's a fast pokémon that can deal damage and then get out. I personally love Mienfoo in the tier. If he does get pushed up, I think we will see more Aipom (even though its #8). Abra should also be looked at, because it hits faster than most of the pokémon in the tier and can deal a good amount of damage. Even though its "frail" and the common ability and item is magic guard with focus sash, it can survive at least two hits at minimum.
Thoughts on What to Ban:
- The combination of Sturdy + Shell Smash + Berry Juice
- Pawniard
- Drought
These are the three nominations I'm going to make, however, here my thoughts on other Pokemon that I also think are problems. Misdreavus is instantly the first thing that comes to mind, as it's strong, bulky, and really versatile. My main gripe with it is that there is always something that does well against it. Let me explain this part. If I run SubNP with Hidden Power Fighting as my coverage move, then bulky Scraggy can beat Misdreavus, if I run Thunderbolt then, again, bulky Scraggy can handle Misdreavus, so can Munchlax, Chinchou, etc. If I run Dazzling Gleam, then Scraggy isn't a concern, but Eviolite Pawniard sponges the hit and forces Midreavus out. However, it is insanely hard to check overall. It can run a variety of sets like Eviolite, bulky NP, SubNP, Choice Scarf, and the list goes on. It has coverage in all the right places, and to top it all off, its Speed is really high. I just don't feel Misdreavus is extremely broken at the moment, but moreso very strong. I really like it in the current metagame, and maybe that's just me, but I wouldn't mind seeing it banned. Mienfoo, now. Mienfoo is not broken in my eyes really. Sure, it's fast, versatile, and strong, but is it really restricting? It gets checked by a lot of shit like Foongus for example, and it can't run everything. Scarf sets can be played around and Life Orb sets can as well, but Eviolite sets are a bit tougher. My main issue with Mienfoo is that it can escape all of its counters with U-turn and just regain health to get back in and do stuff again. Finally, burd. Fletchling is really strong, yes, and Gale Wings Acrobatics pushes it over any other Flying-type. But after using it for awhile I realized how much stuff actually checked it, think Magnemite, Chinchou, Bronzor (which is still viable ;__;7). It also keeps things in line and well constructed teams usually do have answers to it. Sure it's really good, but I don't think it deserves to be banned. Suspected? Maybe, but not banned.
Unfixable, that's quite a complex ban you have proposed there, and I'd really like you to rethink that. There are only 2 Pokemon that have that combination and they are Dwebble and Tirtouga. From your description, you don't seem to believe Dwebble is broken. So if Dwebble isn't broken and you believe that combination is broken, I think you should simply just be nominating Tirtouga.
Anyway, I personally believe Tirtouga is easy enough to deal with, basically any Grass-types that are slightly bulky, any Fighting-type and any priority user that can take an aqua jet. It's also susceptible to any status and can't break down the bulkier mons in the tier such as Porygon and Spritzee.
When seeing a Tirtouga, I see too many players attacking to bring it down to Berry Juice range, when they could be using a weaker attack to make it into a 2hko. Not to mention if hazards are up, Tirtouga is really hard to set up.
Anyway, I personally believe Tirtouga is easy enough to deal with, basically any Grass-types that are slightly bulky, any Fighting-type and any priority user that can take an aqua jet. It's also susceptible to any status and can't break down the bulkier mons in the tier such as Porygon and Spritzee.
When seeing a Tirtouga, I see too many players attacking to bring it down to Berry Juice range, when they could be using a weaker attack to make it into a 2hko. Not to mention if hazards are up, Tirtouga is really hard to set up.
My god I don't want to be that dick who says it but some of you clearly have really strong biases against what you personally can't deal with and poor understanding of why to ban something. Usage isn't really a relevant argument when it comes to banning. Its just an indication of centralization.
And no, there is absolutely no reason for Abra to be suspected whatsoever
And no, there is absolutely no reason for Abra to be suspected whatsoever
yo, you are being that dick.
I know you're an experienced and good player, and I agree with you that there's no reason for Abra to be suspected. But don't just shoot people down that have less experience than you. If you disagree with a post, at least provide reasoning for why you disagree, it leads to better discussion, helps explain things to newer players, and doesn't discourage new people from contributing to the forum.
I know you're an experienced and good player, and I agree with you that there's no reason for Abra to be suspected. But don't just shoot people down that have less experience than you. If you disagree with a post, at least provide reasoning for why you disagree, it leads to better discussion, helps explain things to newer players, and doesn't discourage new people from contributing to the forum.
Kay first post here and first post in LC in general. My thoughts might be a bit off since I play LC for like, 3 days.
atm there are in my opinion two things in the tier that are broken.
First of is Misdreavus. While Misdreavus has some checks, it lacks counters. This is due to the fact that it has ways to work around it's 'supposed-to-be' counters, which are, according to the anlysis, Houndour, Pawniard, Bulky Normal types, Scraggy and Vullaby. However Missy gets WoW, and it can render Pawniard and non-Shed Skin scraggy useless. Besides that, Missy has great coverage in Shadow Ball and HP Fighting alone, and the latter is SE vs every aforementioned counter, exept Vullaby. And guess what, it also gets Thunderbolt!
Once its set is revealed, it's slighty more easy to handle, but if your Missy check is Vullaby and it just happens to carry Tbolt, you're fucked. Same goes with Scraggy and Dazzling Gleam. Heck, I've run into sets carrying both Thunderbolt and HP Fighting, along with Shadow Ball. This unpredictability to a certain extend is what gives the user of Missy a low risk high reward situation, whereas the opponent doesn't exactly know what it should do, since his counter to Missy may suddenly fall to a WilloWisp or HP Fighting.
The other thing I want to adress is Fletchling. This thing is just so stupidly easy to use, spamming Acrobatics is basically all it needs to do. It so happens that all of Fletchlings counters are grounded and weak to ground, and guess what, Diglett is here to trap those with Arena Trap and more often than not kill them with Earthquake. The only two grounded counters to fletch that can actually survive Diglett are SturdyJuice Magnemite and Tirtouga, but even in the ideal situation, they end up with 1 HP, leaving your team open to fletch regardless. If yo don't have something that can kill Fletch at that point, it's basically gg.
I haven't had any problems with Pawn or Mienfoo thus yet, but I'm new here anyway
atm there are in my opinion two things in the tier that are broken.
First of is Misdreavus. While Misdreavus has some checks, it lacks counters. This is due to the fact that it has ways to work around it's 'supposed-to-be' counters, which are, according to the anlysis, Houndour, Pawniard, Bulky Normal types, Scraggy and Vullaby. However Missy gets WoW, and it can render Pawniard and non-Shed Skin scraggy useless. Besides that, Missy has great coverage in Shadow Ball and HP Fighting alone, and the latter is SE vs every aforementioned counter, exept Vullaby. And guess what, it also gets Thunderbolt!
Once its set is revealed, it's slighty more easy to handle, but if your Missy check is Vullaby and it just happens to carry Tbolt, you're fucked. Same goes with Scraggy and Dazzling Gleam. Heck, I've run into sets carrying both Thunderbolt and HP Fighting, along with Shadow Ball. This unpredictability to a certain extend is what gives the user of Missy a low risk high reward situation, whereas the opponent doesn't exactly know what it should do, since his counter to Missy may suddenly fall to a WilloWisp or HP Fighting.
The other thing I want to adress is Fletchling. This thing is just so stupidly easy to use, spamming Acrobatics is basically all it needs to do. It so happens that all of Fletchlings counters are grounded and weak to ground, and guess what, Diglett is here to trap those with Arena Trap and more often than not kill them with Earthquake. The only two grounded counters to fletch that can actually survive Diglett are SturdyJuice Magnemite and Tirtouga, but even in the ideal situation, they end up with 1 HP, leaving your team open to fletch regardless. If yo don't have something that can kill Fletch at that point, it's basically gg.
I haven't had any problems with Pawn or Mienfoo thus yet, but I'm new here anyway
Abra - The thing is, it can only run Focus Sash or Life Orb, not both. If it runs a Life Orb, then its terrible defenses come into play and it finds itself susceptible to a variety of offensive Pokemon. If it doesn't run a boosting item, it's actually pretty weak.
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's a STAB super effective attack failing to OHKO defensive Mienfoo, even after Stealth Rock. Mienfoo isn't even that bulky :/
105 SpA looks really impressive when other special attackers are running around with like 85, but when it's unboosted, it's actually pretty wimpy in a tier chock-full of Eviolites. In other words, Abra can either pose as a severe nuisance to either defensive or offensive teams depending on its set, but it is still manageable by both, and will have trouble pulling its weight against the other.
This isn't to say Abra isn't incredibly good, of course; the ease with which it is able to fit into a variety of teams and check key threats is phenomenal, but probably not suspect worthy.
Tirtouga - For every method there is to remove hazards, there is also a way to prevent or discourage these methods, and even without these, getting rid of hazards really messes with your offensive momentum, meaning hazards should usually be assumed to be in play regardless. However, let's imagine that for whatever reason, hazards are not in play.
Sturdyjuice is still quite simple to get around for anybody with some level of experience playing LC. Knock Off was discussed earlier in this thread, and is a very potent move; if used on Tirtouga, we have a half-health turtle that is susceptible to priority and prone to being KOed by just about any follow-up move. Even outside of that, you could simply just hit Tirtouga with a move that doesn't activate Berry Juice when it tries to set up a Shell Smash, meaning it is now probably near half health and at -1 defense.
Now that it's clear that Tirtouga avoiding the 2HKO is highly unlikely, the most important bit is that Tirtouga isn't actually that powerful at +2.
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 16-21 (61.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All five of these Pokemon are top tier themselves, meaning it is very, very easy to fit a Tirtouga check onto a team.
As for Aqua Jet, it has 40 base power. When at +2, it's OHKOing the defensive titan known as Gastly no more than half the time, don't expect too much from it.
Situations where a Tirtouga sweep is pulled off against a moderately competent player are usually situations where pretty much any other decent win condition could have done the same as well; I really don't think Sturdyjuice Tirtouga is actually that hard to beat.
Drought - The big difference between Drought last gen and Drought this gen is that Drought is now on a timer. This is really, really important, because it essentially forces Vulpix to run a Heat Rock if it wants to provide adequate Sun support; if it does not, 5 turns is ridiculously easy to stall out, meaning we get to deal with a Pokemon with 50/35/30 defenses and 40 base speed, in the case of Bellsprout. If Heat Rock is run, Vulpix itself becomes significantly less useful; it is still able to hit offensive Pokemon hard, but base 65 Speed, although not slow, isn't extremely fast, either, and 38/40/65 defenses without Eviolite are blatantly atrocious. Against defensive teams, Fire Blast fails to 2HKO pretty much any self-respecting special wall; in other words, by running Heat Rock, Vulpix itself becomes drastically less useful. Not only that, but even with a Heat Rock, sun STILL doesn't last forever, and can STILL be stalled out by certain bulky Pokemon. Ice Shard is most certainly not the only thing that can hassle a sun sweeper, because Fletchling exists, and Acrobatics is arguably the most relevant priority move right now. Other than Fletchling, Jolly Life Orb Pawniard OHKOs Life Orb Bellsprout with Sucker Punch 100% of the time after Stealth Rock, and a variety of offensive safety nets, such as Focus Sash Abra and Endure Magnemite, can also check Bellsprout. There are also plenty of Eviolite Pokemon that can avoid the OHKO from Bellsprout's attacks; Eviolite Misdreavus actually has a small but noteworthy chance of surviving the 2HKO from Eviolite Bellsprout's Solar Beam. Of course Bellsprout can use Sleep Powder to take out one of its checks, but Sleep Clause exists, so it can't do any more than that, and we're also costing precious Sun turns here; without Sun, Bellsprout is sort of pathetic. To put it bluntly, I find suspecting Drought quite far-fetched at this point in time, and have never been under the impression that Drought without Tangela has been anywhere close to broken, having played with and against it more than I'd bother to count; however, it will be much more worthy of consideration if Fletchling ends up leaving the tier, as many others have mentioned, because Fletchling is one of the archetype's most notable offensive checks.
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's a STAB super effective attack failing to OHKO defensive Mienfoo, even after Stealth Rock. Mienfoo isn't even that bulky :/
105 SpA looks really impressive when other special attackers are running around with like 85, but when it's unboosted, it's actually pretty wimpy in a tier chock-full of Eviolites. In other words, Abra can either pose as a severe nuisance to either defensive or offensive teams depending on its set, but it is still manageable by both, and will have trouble pulling its weight against the other.
This isn't to say Abra isn't incredibly good, of course; the ease with which it is able to fit into a variety of teams and check key threats is phenomenal, but probably not suspect worthy.
Tirtouga - For every method there is to remove hazards, there is also a way to prevent or discourage these methods, and even without these, getting rid of hazards really messes with your offensive momentum, meaning hazards should usually be assumed to be in play regardless. However, let's imagine that for whatever reason, hazards are not in play.
Sturdyjuice is still quite simple to get around for anybody with some level of experience playing LC. Knock Off was discussed earlier in this thread, and is a very potent move; if used on Tirtouga, we have a half-health turtle that is susceptible to priority and prone to being KOed by just about any follow-up move. Even outside of that, you could simply just hit Tirtouga with a move that doesn't activate Berry Juice when it tries to set up a Shell Smash, meaning it is now probably near half health and at -1 defense.
Now that it's clear that Tirtouga avoiding the 2HKO is highly unlikely, the most important bit is that Tirtouga isn't actually that powerful at +2.
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 16-21 (61.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All five of these Pokemon are top tier themselves, meaning it is very, very easy to fit a Tirtouga check onto a team.
As for Aqua Jet, it has 40 base power. When at +2, it's OHKOing the defensive titan known as Gastly no more than half the time, don't expect too much from it.
Situations where a Tirtouga sweep is pulled off against a moderately competent player are usually situations where pretty much any other decent win condition could have done the same as well; I really don't think Sturdyjuice Tirtouga is actually that hard to beat.
Drought - The big difference between Drought last gen and Drought this gen is that Drought is now on a timer. This is really, really important, because it essentially forces Vulpix to run a Heat Rock if it wants to provide adequate Sun support; if it does not, 5 turns is ridiculously easy to stall out, meaning we get to deal with a Pokemon with 50/35/30 defenses and 40 base speed, in the case of Bellsprout. If Heat Rock is run, Vulpix itself becomes significantly less useful; it is still able to hit offensive Pokemon hard, but base 65 Speed, although not slow, isn't extremely fast, either, and 38/40/65 defenses without Eviolite are blatantly atrocious. Against defensive teams, Fire Blast fails to 2HKO pretty much any self-respecting special wall; in other words, by running Heat Rock, Vulpix itself becomes drastically less useful. Not only that, but even with a Heat Rock, sun STILL doesn't last forever, and can STILL be stalled out by certain bulky Pokemon. Ice Shard is most certainly not the only thing that can hassle a sun sweeper, because Fletchling exists, and Acrobatics is arguably the most relevant priority move right now. Other than Fletchling, Jolly Life Orb Pawniard OHKOs Life Orb Bellsprout with Sucker Punch 100% of the time after Stealth Rock, and a variety of offensive safety nets, such as Focus Sash Abra and Endure Magnemite, can also check Bellsprout. There are also plenty of Eviolite Pokemon that can avoid the OHKO from Bellsprout's attacks; Eviolite Misdreavus actually has a small but noteworthy chance of surviving the 2HKO from Eviolite Bellsprout's Solar Beam. Of course Bellsprout can use Sleep Powder to take out one of its checks, but Sleep Clause exists, so it can't do any more than that, and we're also costing precious Sun turns here; without Sun, Bellsprout is sort of pathetic. To put it bluntly, I find suspecting Drought quite far-fetched at this point in time, and have never been under the impression that Drought without Tangela has been anywhere close to broken, having played with and against it more than I'd bother to count; however, it will be much more worthy of consideration if Fletchling ends up leaving the tier, as many others have mentioned, because Fletchling is one of the archetype's most notable offensive checks.
Personally, I disagree with nominating Pawniard. Yes, it may be a stellar offensive threat, but there are a couple of good ways to deal with it.
Timburr & Croagunk - Both of these pokemon are known for being pretty bulky Fighting-Types in LC. They can come in on one of Pawniard's attacks (I.E. Knock Off) and scare Pawniard out with a priority Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, respectably. Timburr and Croagunk can also get around Ghost types with Knock Off.
Trubbish - Trubbish is able to come in on every single one of Pawniard's attacks (Knock Off's boost is rendered useless with Sticky Hold, and Trubbish heals back to full health with Berry Juice). Trubbish then can hit Pawniard back really hard with Drain Punch.
Sorry if this was short, but I think I made my point
Timburr & Croagunk - Both of these pokemon are known for being pretty bulky Fighting-Types in LC. They can come in on one of Pawniard's attacks (I.E. Knock Off) and scare Pawniard out with a priority Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, respectably. Timburr and Croagunk can also get around Ghost types with Knock Off.
Trubbish - Trubbish is able to come in on every single one of Pawniard's attacks (Knock Off's boost is rendered useless with Sticky Hold, and Trubbish heals back to full health with Berry Juice). Trubbish then can hit Pawniard back really hard with Drain Punch.
Sorry if this was short, but I think I made my point
Time to add some personal opinions especially on my viewpoint on centralization.
I feel people are just throwing it around. In a meta where we get no drop or rises bar every new gen, we are going to have to accept centralization to some degree. Since we get new things every new gen, we are going going to be stuck with the same shit for a pretty long time. If Fletchling is the best bird in the meta and is really consistent hell yeah I'm gonna use it. Same reason why I love Foongus over all other grass types atm. Resist Fighting, Fairy has regen, Spore, Stun, etc. I don't think the meta revolves around sweeping with fletchling or getting swept, it's more like it's used so much most of the matches are decided by Fletchling. Who would blame them, since it's such an efficient sweeper? It isn't so efficient that it's broken, since you need to pair it with a Diglett to get the most out of it. There are many mons capable of tanking a hit and statusing Fletch or go for the ko (Lileep / Slowpoke w/ Ice Beam / Frillish / Ponyta / Porygon w/ Beam or Download Tri Attack / Missy / Archen / Tirtouga / Ferroseed / Bronzor / etc), Without Diglett the list increases even more. The pokes I listed have more uses than to just beat Fletchling, so there exist more fletchling counters/checks.
Writing on phone is aids.
I feel people are just throwing it around. In a meta where we get no drop or rises bar every new gen, we are going to have to accept centralization to some degree. Since we get new things every new gen, we are going going to be stuck with the same shit for a pretty long time. If Fletchling is the best bird in the meta and is really consistent hell yeah I'm gonna use it. Same reason why I love Foongus over all other grass types atm. Resist Fighting, Fairy has regen, Spore, Stun, etc. I don't think the meta revolves around sweeping with fletchling or getting swept, it's more like it's used so much most of the matches are decided by Fletchling. Who would blame them, since it's such an efficient sweeper? It isn't so efficient that it's broken, since you need to pair it with a Diglett to get the most out of it. There are many mons capable of tanking a hit and statusing Fletch or go for the ko (Lileep / Slowpoke w/ Ice Beam / Frillish / Ponyta / Porygon w/ Beam or Download Tri Attack / Missy / Archen / Tirtouga / Ferroseed / Bronzor / etc), Without Diglett the list increases even more. The pokes I listed have more uses than to just beat Fletchling, so there exist more fletchling counters/checks.
Writing on phone is aids.
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As many people has said, i feel that the only mon worth suspecting its misdreavus as its a mon that has power, speed AND bulk, this paired up with a very good moveset which makes it unpredictable, so it is extremely good but as i said, its worth suspecting but not necesarily broken. Artemisa already said this but fletch can be stopped by a lot of actually good mons, and it p much always does the same thing unless it decides to use random weak stuff like hp ground or some random gimmick sets, so it will most likely be going to be attacking with either acrobatics, overheat or using u-turn, making it predictable.
absdaddy
Banned deucer.
y'all remember my words about banning misdreavus next month with zigzagoon at 90% usage. Think about it. Making broken things even more broken by banning something thats not even broken - LC 2014
If something becomes broken after the ban of another mon, what becomes broken will be banned too, thats how it has always worked so people should not keep with this "if we ban x mon y mon will be op" philosophy. And i said that missy is worth suspecting, i dont claim it to be completly op but theres nothing really broken in the current meta from what ive seen in my games.
I'm hardly experienced or good, but Yeah I'm being that dick. I'm just getting annoyed with complaints regarding stuff like Knock Off, Pawniard, Sturdyjuice and stuff that are either easily handled and not a commanding presence in the meta. Pawniard doesn't actually reduce too many Pokemon's viability by merely existing. Knock off is not broken, as I've started countless times before, and Sturdyjuice loses to hazards, knock off, inability to beak through, ect.
This differs from fetch and missy as they basically have most of the meta focused around them, or get crushed by them, respectively.
absdaddy
Banned deucer.
imo nothing is broken right now (im playing on alts ?_?)tbh if I cared enough to make reqs, the only thing i'd vote is Fletchling, not because its op(good team should be able to shit on bird no matter what kind of team archetype it is), but because im hella tired of seeing same mon every game. this is the only thing that legit overcentralizes meta but its far from GLIGAR-level performance/'overcentralization'. Another thing i can add is that banning Mis~ won't do any good since gastly doesn't have to worry about speedtiers same way missy didnt(except for mirrors obv) and they can run same sets except for evio misdreavus which i could never understand..
Entire suspect is next to useless as people vote things they can't beat which are nowhere near as broken as previous suspect were. Problems with Mis/Pawn/Bird? - sorry but that's your fault, not Pokemon's. Git gud or spend some time in the teambuilder.
tl;dr - nothing is broken as of now
Oh god watch stunky usage rise 200% when people try to beat it
But srsly we will ban ziggy if it gets that nuts (inb4c learsmoggastly)
Missy is easy to beat, but the problem is it takes really dumb shit like scarf pawn, bulky houndour, and stunky to win. That's just bad, man
Scarf Pawn is really good imo, it can take people by surprise and is just really handy in a lot of situations.
absdaddy
Banned deucer.
i doubt people treat it like surprise set now, its far from shit though
People discount Tirtouga immediately and say it's easy to deal with, which it can be, but it can also be very hard to deal with after a boost. When you say bulky Grass-types, how many actually common and viable ones are there, really? Foongus, Ferroseed, and Cottonee were the first to come to mind, then after that maybe Shroomish or Pumpkaboo? From the viability rankings, the Grass-types are: A - Cottonee / Foongus, A- - Ferroseed, C+ - Bellsprout / Lileep, C - Bulbasaur / Oddish / Snover, D - Cacnea / Chikorita / Phantump / Pumpkaboo / Sewaddle / Shroomish / Skiddo. Notice the huge gap? And notice how few of these Grass-types are as bulky as apparently made out to be? I'll give you that Fighting-types do give it trouble, but not a lot can switch into Tirtouga after a boost, all Fighting-types are 2HKOed by Waterfall (or Stone Edge, in Croagunk's case).
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 27-33 (108 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Berry Juice)
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 76 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 11-13 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 15-18 (57.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO (Stone Edge obviously 2HKOes)
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Pawniard: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 7-10 (33.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Keep in mind that Sucker Punch is cancelled out because of Aqua Jet anyways)
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Carvanha: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
- Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. Dry Skin Croagunk: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
- +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Bunnelby: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And I know calcs are not an argument, I acknowledge that, but what they do is demonstrate how Tirtouga fares versus said Pokemon. 2HKOing things at best is still pretty good, as it is extremely rare to come by a Pokemon that doesn't have checks and can OHKO everything in the metagame. Because it can 2HKO bulky Pokemon is just showing it can break down stuff. And, I acknowledge Tirtouga's issues. Setting up Shell Smash can be difficult, and when Sturdy is broken a hard time occurs. However, after a Shell Smash is what concerns me, not Tirtouga in itself. I know it's a complex ban that revolves around Tirtouga, but I don't know any other way to make it so this is not an issue anymore. Tirtouga in itself isn't broken, the same way Dwebble in itself isn't broken, its what occurs after a Shell Smash that is of concern to me.
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