Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

Status
Not open for further replies.
SturdyJuice is good, but is by no means broken. Hazards break Sturdy, and most Sturdymons carry offensive movesets to help guarantee higher damage being done to them.
I don't think sturdy juice is the prob, but sturdy smash with berry juice certainly is.
hazards break sturdy, but he can still shell smash on whoever he switched in, and most probably you'll have to sacrifice at least 1 or 2 poke and then have a strong priority to kill them off 100% or you might risk proccing their berry juice and they're back to full and you basically lose.
I don't see how this is that much different from swirlix case in which he could set up BD and unburden at first turn in many cases, and he didnt even had sturdy. The only major difference in fact is that swirlix could set up on the much common fighting types, and no one was really willing to run Poison jab or poison types specifically for that and stealth rock were much more uncommon. But now i see people running pjab and poison types alot specifically to deal with fighters or fairys -.-
It's not like smashers don't centralize the game at all, in fact, one of the biggest reasons priority and stealth rock is so common is exactly to deal with them.
 
I don't think sturdy juice is the prob, but sturdy smash with berry juice certainly is.
hazards break sturdy, but he can still shell smash on whoever he switched in, and most probably you'll have to sacrifice at least 1 or 2 poke and then have a strong priority to kill them off 100% or you might risk proccing their berry juice and they're back to full and you basically lose.
While I don't agree with a potential Knock Off ban, I don't think this is a very good argument. With Knock Off still around, you'd have to use a turn to Knock Off the berry juice, which does nothing to stop the opponent from Shell Smashing. With Hazards, Sturdy is broken, which allows you to potentially kill the opposing SturdySmasher with a single hit, instead of having to use two turns.

Edit: That isn't to say you couldn't just use hazards AND Knock Off :P

I don't see how this is that much different from swirlix case in which he could set up BD and unburden at first turn in many cases, and he didnt even had sturdy. The only major difference in fact is that swirlix could set up on the much common fighting types, and no one was really willing to run Poison jab or poison types specifically for that and stealth rock were much more uncommon. But now i see people running pjab and poison types alot specifically to deal with fighters or fairys -.-
It's not like smashers don't centralize the game at all, in fact, one of the biggest reasons priority and stealth rock is so common is exactly to deal with them.
It's not really that much like Swirlix. Swirlix gained speed and maximized its attack while not having to pay in reduced defenses. Hazards didn't really matter as much against Swirlix, because after checks are weakened, it could set up and gain the Unburden boost from Berry Juice activating--being at full health wasn't that much of a concern for Swirlix like it is for SturdySmashers.
 
Last edited:

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the year
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
Community Leader
Are you honestly trying to suggest that Gastly is a shitty Pokemon?
Gastly is not shitty, but it's not quite a defensive Pokemon; many, many moderately attacks are able to cleanly OHKO Gastly through its atrocious defenses, not just Knock Off.
Or that Phantump is a shitty Pokemon?
Spinblocking isn't what it used to be, since Defog tends to be the far more popular method to remove hazards. In addition, being the best available check to Drillbur isn't actually a super notable feat, considering how Drillbur isn't even A+, let alone S, on the viability thread, and is prone to being beaten through a variety of other tactics, even if they don't block Rapid Spin. Its bad match-up against a lot of common pokes, including ones that don't carry Knock Off, such as Misdreavus and Fletchling, also hold it back. I'm not saying Phantump is a totally awful Pokemon, though.
Taken straight from the Misdreavus analysis: However, with XY came the rise of Knock Off. Misdreavus is OHKOed by Knock Off on less bulky sets and does not appreciate losing its Eviolite on the bulkier sets.
Despite its weakness to Knock Off, Misdreavus maintains its position as one of the most used Pokemon in LC. The point wasn't that Misdreavus didn't mind Knock Off, but rather the exact opposite; despite Misdreavus possessing such a weakness to Knock Off, it is still often considered the best Pokemon in LC, meaning Knock Off wasn't nearly enough to hold it back.
I don't think sturdy juice is the prob, but sturdy smash with berry juice certainly is.
hazards break sturdy, but he can still shell smash on whoever he switched in, and most probably you'll have to sacrifice at least 1 or 2 poke and then have a strong priority to kill them off 100% or you might risk proccing their berry juice and they're back to full and you basically lose.
Unless you have a check or counter to them, like Mienfoo, Sucker Punch Pawniard, Timburr, Chinchou, Cottonee, Croagunk, Magnemite, Porygon, and a few others
I don't see how this is that much different from swirlix case in which he could set up BD and unburden at first turn in many cases, and he didnt even had sturdy. The only major difference in fact is that swirlix could set up on the much common fighting types, and no one was really willing to run Poison jab or poison types specifically for that and stealth rock were much more uncommon. But now i see people running pjab and poison types alot specifically to deal with fighters or fairys
BD wasn't even Swirlix's most notable set, if I recall. There isn't really anything Tirtouga or Dwebble can pull off to match the CGCM set. Even then, what really put Swirlix over the edge was that it could run a multitude of completely viable sets that could each sweep teams that didn't have dedicated counters for them, and had different counters.
It's not like smashers don't centralize the game at all, in fact, one of the biggest reasons priority and stealth rock is so common is exactly to deal with them.
The most popular priority user is Fletchling, and it's not dealing with Tirtouga any time soon, so smashers probably have little to nothing to deal with the popularity of priority; priority is just really, really good in its design. Stealth Rock is definitely not common because of smashers alone, because its utility extends far beyond that; it has repeatedly been deemed in every singles tier since its release, including the gen 4 metas where Shell Smash didn't even exist, as the best move in competitive play.

One more thing - keep in mind that Tirtouga doesn't actually completely obliterate everything ever after just one turn of set-up lol, especially with Eviolite everywhere.
 
Last edited:
While I don't agree with a potential Knock Off ban, I don't think this is a very good argument. With Knock Off still around, you'd have to use a turn to Knock Off the berry juice, which does nothing to stop the opponent from Shell Smashing. With Hazards, Sturdy is broken, which allows you to potentially kill the opposing SturdySmasher with a single hit, instead of having to use two turns.
My argument has nothing with knock off, and if you have to knock off and then kill, you use 2 turns and not one. And that's just in the case that the tirtouga user is dumb enough to switch on a poke with knock off, otherwise it takes you 1 turn to switch in which he'll shell smash, one turn to knock off and 1 turn to kill, which means you'll have to sacrifice the knockoffer for sure.

It's not really that much like Swirlix. Swirlix gained speed and maximized its attack while not having to pay in reduced defenses. Hazards didn't really matter as much against Swirlix, because after checks are weakened, it could set up and gain the Unburden boost from Berry Juice activating--being at full health wasn't that much of a concern for Swirlix like it is for SturdySmashers.
Swirlix could be 1hko, could be more easily revenge killed by something like fletch and you could definetly force his berry juice to proc before BD, and you could also knock off juice and he wouldn't do much with BD.
Sturdy smashers have higher base defense and you have to be precise to damage them just enough to not proc berry juice so that you can kill them, you have to prepare SR or hazards to deal with sturdy and fletch can't probably revenge kill on tirtouga at -2. Also it's kinda as easy to bluff shell smash and force a check to get in to weaken them as it was with swirlix.
 
Are you honestly trying to suggest that Gastly is a shitty Pokemon? Or that Phantump is a shitty Pokemon? Considering Phantump is the best spin blocker available, being a hard stop to Drilbur unlike Misdreavus who takes 50% from rocks and a Mold Breaker EQ, or Gastly who hits harder than Misdreavus does with much better STABs and typing. There are no other SE moves to get their asses kicked, outside Phantump and Acro. Knock Off is literally the only Dark-type attack worth running, outside the rare Pursuit, or the even rarer Dark Pulse / Sucker Punch Houndour.

Taken straight from the Misdreavus analysis: However, with XY came the rise of Knock Off. Misdreavus is OHKOed by Knock Off on less bulky sets and does not appreciate losing its Eviolite on the bulkier sets.

Missy is not exempt, and I have no idea where you got that impression. The only difference is, instead of being OHKOed, it is only 2hkoed.

The only reason you think those Pokemon are "shitty" is because of the current meta they are in. The Knock Off meta. Knock Off is extremely unhealthy for the metagame. There is literally no downside to running it. Oh, you need a 4th move on Abra and don't want either Substitute or Protect? Why not Knock Off? I'd also like to point out that Knock Off has even forced its way into random analysis sets, or tried to, as in the case of the Cottonee analysis, or the Drifloon analysis. You can argue whether the move is broken all day long, its a true, debateable point. But unhealthy? Centralizing? There is really no counter argument to it being centralizing. Random Pokemon getting suggested Knock Off on a main set simply because it is such great utility. Acro Mienfoo being a thing, simply because it beats normal Mienfoo.
Are you suggesting that Gastly should be able to come in on super effective attacks? I didn't say Gastly was useless, And yeah, phantump sucks. Do Yyou think that spinblocking does anything? Do you think that being weak to the most common pokemon in the meta isn't what hampers phantump's udage? This argument is becoming absurd, almost as bad as ye olde scald and SR debates.
 
Last edited:
My argument has nothing with knock off, and if you have to knock off and then kill, you use 2 turns and not one. And that's just in the case that the tirtouga user is dumb enough to switch on a poke with knock off, otherwise it takes you 1 turn to switch in which he'll shell smash, one turn to knock off and 1 turn to kill, which means you'll have to sacrifice the knockoffer for sure.
Your argument probably should have something to do with Knock Off, seeing as this is a discussion solely about the effect Knock Off has on the metagame. I also state Knock Off + Attack takes two turns, while with hazards, Sturdy is broken, allowing you to KO in one turn. You're arguing for Knock Off, but have just stated that Knock Off is more of a hassle to use because it takes more turns to KO than Hazards + Attack. The bottom line is that SturdySmashers will not be a huge problem as long as Hazards are allowed in the metagame.

Swirlix could be 1hko, could be more easily revenge killed by something like fletch and you could definetly force his berry juice to proc before BD, and you could also knock off juice and he wouldn't do much with BD.
Sturdy smashers have higher base defense and you have to be precise to damage them just enough to not proc berry juice so that you can kill them, you have to prepare SR or hazards to deal with sturdy and fletch can't probably revenge kill on tirtouga at -2. Also it's kinda as easy to bluff shell smash and force a check to get in to weaken them as it was with swirlix.
So, you have just proven my point that SturdySmashers and Swirlix are nothing alike. :P
 
Unless you have a check or counter to them, like Mienfoo, Sucker Punch Pawniard, Timburr, Chinchou, Cottonee, Croagunk, Magnemite, Porygon, and a few others
Chinchou, croag and magnemite are frail checks for EQ and neither of the others will like tirtouga bluff and knock off.

BD wasn't even Swirlix's most notable set, if I recall. There isn't really anything Tirtouga or Dwebble can pull off to match the CGCM set. Even then, what really put Swirlix over the edge was that it could run a multitude of completely viable sets that could each sweep teams that didn't have dedicated counters for them, and had different counters.
BD was for sure the most notable set in terms of usage, CM swirlix had actually more success because everyone was expecting BD, and CM Swirlix could handle those counters, like foongus, grimer and other poison types, because it could run psychic and flamethrower, and used to take people by surprise. Besides, people were not really willing to run precise counters like sturdy juice magnemite/croagunk because of gligar which are actually more common now. Either way, if swirlix was already down to low health he could be revenge killed with bullet punch the same way sturdy smashers are nowadays

The most popular priority user is Fletchling, and it's not dealing with Tirtouga any time soon, so smashers probably have little to nothing to deal with the popularity of priority; priority is just really, really good in its design. Stealth Rock is definitely not common because of smashers alone, because its utility extends far beyond that; it has repeatedly been deemed in every singles tier since its release, including the gen 4 metas where Shell Smash didn't even exist, as the best move in competitive play.
I didn't say it was because of sturdy smashers alone, but it's for sure one of the major reasons to run SR and priority, as well as clear smog/hazes, or encore cottonee/purrloin, and one of the reasons timburr and croag are actually prefered over mienfoo for some.
The thing is, the metagame shifted to have counters for tirtouga as really commonly used mons, unlike swirlix counters which were poison type and weak to gligar and meditite and not really reliable as they are now.
 
Last edited:
Your argument probably should have something to do with Knock Off, seeing as this is a discussion solely about the effect Knock Off has on the metagame. I also state Knock Off + Attack takes two turns, while with hazards, Sturdy is broken, allowing you to KO in one turn. You're arguing for Knock Off, but have just stated that Knock Off is more of a hassle to use because it takes more turns to KO than Hazards + Attack. The bottom line is that SturdySmashers will not be a huge problem as long as Hazards are allowed in the metagame.
In that case, here we have a situation in which knock off is actually worse to some alternetives, so it would actually run against the idea for knock off being banned.

So, you have just proven my point that SturdySmashers and Swirlix are nothing alike. :P
They are alike in the point that you have to be precise to counter them, or both of them can easily set up and sweep most of your team, and as we discussed here, you need at least 2 turns to do it, and both have counters that can be weakened down.
 

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the year
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
Community Leader
Chinchou, croag and magnemite
Checks, not counters - if tirt runs EQ over ajet, then now it'll have trouble with several notable scarf users, because it gets outsped by a lot of them. Croagunk is a guaranteed revenge-kill regardless because it's immune to ajet and can just vacuum wave.
BD was for sure the most notable set in terms of usage, CM swirlix had actually more success because everyone was expecting BD, and CM Swirlix could handle those counters, like foongus, grimer and other poison types, because it could run psychic and flamethrower, and used to take people by surprise. Besides, people were not really willing to run precise counters like sturdy juice magnemite/croagunk because of gligar which are actually more common now. Either way, if swirlix was already down to low health he could be revenge killed with bullet punch the same way sturdy smashers are nowadays
CGCM was cotton guard + calm mind swirlix, which was seen a lot in tour-level play once it was discovered, in part because it could not be revenge-killed under most circumstances, because it could just recover back damage with Draining Kiss.
I didn't say it was because of sturdy smashers alone, but it's for sure one of the major reasons to run SR and priority, as well as clear smog/hazes, and one of the reasons timburr and croag are actually prefered over mienfoo for some.
The thing is, the metagame shifted to have counters for tirtouga as really commonly used mons, unlike swirlix counters which were poison type and weak to gligar and meditite and not really reliable as they are now.
It's not a major reason; it's a very, very small reason. If tirtouga ceased to exist, usage of SR and priority would likely not drop at all. Timburr and Croagunk's advantages extend far beyond beating Tirtouga, and Mienfoo can beat Tirtouga once Sturdy has been broken anyway lol, whether through other sources or Fake Out.

Anyway let's stop with the smashsturdyjuice debate in a discussion about knock off
 
Honestly both discussions are kinda pointless as neither are all that significant in terms of centralization. Stuff like Fletch/Misdreavus are way more centralizing and more worthy of discussion regarding brokenness.
 

Ray Jay

"Jump first, ask questions later, oui oui!"
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I always hesitate to post because I know I'm basically that washed up LC guy that some young'ns don't recognize, but I have to say that in early Gen VI I was wary of a potential Knock Off ban and I'm not entirely surprised it's coming up. I think we're kind of thinking about it the wrong way, though.

First, I think the argument that Pawniard is a much bigger problem than Knock Off is pretty solid, as has been pointed out by people such as Hawkstar. I think the arguments that Knock Off may be broken but it keeps other things in check that are broken is pretty poor; if something is broken then it's broken and it doesn't matter how much diversity or fun or balance it adds to the game, it's broken. I would suggest we are very quick to throw around the word "broken", as well; if something is truly "broken", well, think about the word for a moment, it completely destroys the metagame, and it's not going to add balance or fun, at least in the long term (Yanma was fun for a time).

That's not to say things that aren't broken can't be banned, there are other reasons as well, such as overcentralization or entirely luck-based strategies. I would say we are again quick to put things in these categories when they don't belong, and I think currently people are trying to argue Knock Off should be banned moreso because they don't like it rather than it is broken.

If a strategy is good but it is unfun, we don't ban it. That's not competitive, that's recreational. This is comparable, at least in my eyes, to Pokemon players who allow everything except Legendary Pokemon. Simply because they are perceived as a tier above the rest, it is considered "less fun" (but often uses the guise of "less competitive") to use them. In short, banning things that are statistically "better" is a cheap tactic to try to create a competitive game, it is a shortcut that ignores the actual game in practice. In other words, those trying to use stats (eg "it's a 65 base power Dark-type move that gets buffed all the time" or "Ghosts are irrelevant this gen look at stats"), please stop. The only thing that ultimately matters is practice. Sure, you can keep banning what people perceive to be the strongest things and you will have a competitive metagame, eventually. However, it will be watered down and unideal and will take longer than a generation of Pokemon is around. The further problem is that we are playing a metagame; we don't have the blessing of being two friends who agree to play each other without legendaries and then never learn to combat "popular" strategies-- there isn't a large enough sample to see what "popular" strategies are--even in a competitive metagame, usage will shift.

When it comes to banning an individual move, you are borderline not playing Pokemon anymore, you're playing a hyper specific ruleset that no person can ease their way into with any sense of comfort that slightly resembles Pokemon. LC has enough problems with being hyper specific, and has the problem of having genuinely BROKEN moves (Sonicboom and Dragon Rage). We need to not try to attain a competitive metagame by banning what people perceive to be the best until things are watered down enough that a bunch of things are the best. You may think you want this, but this is Gen V LC in a nutshell, where we got the "most popular Pokemon" up to a list of about 10 that everyone used. Trust me, it's not fun.

My point overall is that Knock Off is a mechanic intended by the creators of the game, likely created to counter the over-dependence on items. This is a shift from previous generations. We don't get to just throw that away because people don't like change (this is why keeping Eviolite was the right choice for LC); it's certainly not broken and it's not overcentralizing.
 
My opinion is prolly really redundant with me being a bit late to this debate but I guess I will show my thoughts on the topic and why I believe Knock Off isn't broken.

It is obviously a really great move but so are U-turn and Stealth Rock which also get good distribution (Knock Off has 50 LC users (not all are viable btw) 38 pokemon can learn Stealth Rock and 34 pokemon can use U-turn) and also effect the way play LC. Stealth Rock greatly effects teams that have Rock-type weak Pokemon and greatly encourage Rapid Spin / Defog support. U-turn / Volt Switch teams also effect the way we play encouraging us to use hazards, or even stuff like Volt Switch immune Pokemon. However just because Knock Off might effect the way we teambuild, encouraging the use of things like Fletchling, Acrobatics Mienfoo, Sticky Hold Pokemon, etc it is in no way broken. No one can spam Knock Off and win games, which would actually be the case for Sonic Boom and Dragon Rage. While Knock Off is a fairly safe move to use early game, it is far from a broken spammable move, Pokemon like Fletchling obviously don't care much about Knock Off, bulky Pokemon who have had their eviolite removed can actually soak up Knock Off on your team. So when one uses a Pokemon with Knock Off a level of skill is actually involved. A player must ask themselves: Should I switch out / use another move in case my opponent switches to their itemless Mienfoo / Fletchling / Ponyta / etc and puts me in a bad position? Or Should I use Knock Off for the chance that I will cripple something on his team? I know this is a specific situation, but all I'm trying to achieve with this scenario is explain how Knock Off can not just be clicked repeatedly until you win. A Fletchling would love switching into a Mienfoo that uses Knock Off, a Mienfoo wouldn't mind switching into a Pawnaird that uses Knock Off for example. So in summary yes its good, but it can't significantly place a battle in your favour by using it and you do need to predict when you should use it or not.

Eviolite is a very influential item in the LC metagame and with Berry Juice being released too they can do their job of providing longetivity for Pokemon extremely well. Knock Off does help to balance out this, From what I hear about earlier XY LC it was a very offensive metagame and while it still is quite offensive, defensive cores and even stall teams can be difficult to break. Knock Off could be argued to have a healthy effect on the metagame being able to make defensive cores much easier to break. Porygon, Chinchou, Lickitung, Foongus, Mienfoo and Spritzee are some fairly common Pokemon that can run defensive sets which wall many Pokemon in the tier and have a form of recovery, with the ability to constantly regain health against common offensive Pokemon in the tier either constant offensive pressure or Knock Off is needed to be able to get past Pokemon like these easier.

Lastly Knock Off's 50 distribution may look scary to some, but Little Cup has more pokemon in it than any other tier with it being the home of all but a handful of first evolutions I believe there are 242 legal Pokemon in LC? and keep in mind that there are a hell of a lot of Pokemon that aren't viable in LC, so out of the 50 Pokemon that can lean Knock Off, not all of them would be viable of course. Plus despite Knock Off's fantastic utility, not all Pokemon that can learn it have to run it. Archen is an example, while running Knock Off on Archen isn't necassarily a bad idea can it find space in its moveset? It wants either Stealth Rock or Defog, it needs Acrobatics, some sets like Roost, it can also pivot out with U-turn and on top of that, likes coverage options like Earthquake and Rock Slide. Although a Pokemon may be able to learn Knock Off it may have to forget about that to run Stealth Rock, or recovery, or a coverage move, a pivoting move, a boosting move, etc.
 

Rowan

The professor?
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
So we've discussed Knock Of to hell and back, with another suspect test on the go, let's talk about other things to nominate.

So far, I've seen shouts for Misdreavus, Pawniard, and Fletchling, with a couple of other mentions of Mienfoo, Zigzagoon, and even chlorodrought, though I'm not sure if the last one is just from people that are unable to beat queenlucy. Berry Juice/SturdyJuice is another one that always gets talked about, but from my experience from talking to people, most people are coming to the conclusion that it's actually relatively easy to deal with.

So what are people going to nominate and why?

Personally, I think Misdreavus is the most detrimental to the metagame. I find it almost impossible to switch into, and 'counters' such as Porygon and Lickitung are easily worked around with HP Fighting. Pawniard hates switching in for fear of Will-O-Wisp, or a Hidden Power Fighting, (sub+hp fighting). Eviolite Houndour is probably the best counter, but even that has to rely on mindgames with Sucker Punch, and hates a +2 HP Fighting.

Fletchling is another one that I feel limits teambuilding way too much, especially when thinking about the FletchDig core. It basically stops the traditional counters like Chinchou, Magnemite and Pawniard from countering Fletchling, forcing you to get up hazards asap whilst using a Scarfed Fletchling counter, or rely on Archen. If you don't have Archen, a well played fletchdig team will be very hard to beat and force you to run multiple fletchling counters.

Pawniard has been discussed somewhat in the Knock Off discussion. Out of the big 3 that most people seem to dislike I believe it's the least detrimental to the game, as it's relatively easy to stick a Fighting-type on your team. However, I think most of the points brought up in Knock Off discussion probably apply to Pawniard and therefore if we don't consider banning Knock Off, as Hawkstar pointed out, banning Pawniard could be an alternative.

Mienfoo is being thrown out as a suggestion from people, probably due to its massively high usage and maybe the fact it just Knocks Off + U-turn and recovers for 0 risk, high reward. It doesn't even care if it takes a hit switching out due to regen.

Zigzagoon I've seen people argue that with Memento support, it can just really easily sweep teams and support from something like Diglett + Pursuit users makes it easy to remove counters.

So yeah, discuss what your nominating, why you think they should be nominated, why you think something should not be nominated etc... (no posts saying "I'm voting for Zigzagoon and Seedot" with no actual content please. Make sure you back your points up.)


bear in mind there will be an actual suspect discussion once the 2 suspects are decided, so you might want to save your holy walls of text till then ;)


THIS ISN'T WHERE YOU NOMINATE OFFICIALLY, THAT THREAD WILL COME LATER
 
Last edited:

tahu

Formerly tahu
is a Pre-Contributor
Im probably gonna nom leftovers so that people who are bad cant use them n_n

But yeah, I feel that Missy and Fletch are both really detrimental to the meta. As cork said, they both really restrict teambuilding, pretty much forcing any good team to run at least one check (neither have true counters) to both. Probably gonna nom those two.
 
I think I'll go for Misdreavus and only Misdreavus for now.

In my opinion Misdreavus has been overcentralizing the metagame for a while. The problem about Misdreavus, like Rowan said, is nothing can switch into it safely because every Pokémon in the metagame can get hit hard by its moves because of its almost perfect coverage with Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam and Hidden Power Fighting, you can also predict a switch into one of its potential checks and go for Substitute or even Nasty Plot. Some people rely on Sucker Punch to knock it down but it doesn't always work as most Misdreavus nowadays run SubJuice. Long story short, Misdreavus doesn't have any real counters in the metagame and you should always sack something to take it down, and even then it might switch out unless you trap it with Pursuit Pokémon like Stunky and Pawniard.

About Fletchling I'm not really sure about it, it's not as hard to deal with as much as Misdreavus is as bulky Rock-type Pokémon like Archen can wall it with ease and force it to switch out (unless it has Steel Wing or Natural Gift but the first doesn't hit that hard and the second one is only available to be used once). On the other hand it can be a huge threat if its counters are down especially if it's used along with some trappers like Diglett. But like I said I don't have much of an opinion about it yet.

Pawniard in my opinion isn't worthy of a suspect maybe Knock Off is but Pawniard isn't. Compared to Misdreavus and Fletchling it's easy to counter with any Fighting Pokémon like Mienfoo and Vacuum Wave Croagunk. I don't have much to say and I agree with Rowan that banning Pawniard might be a better idea than banning Knock Off in general.
 
In my opinion, I think Misdreavus is the biggest issue in this metagame. For starters, it restricts team building. It forces to run a bulky wall like Porygon or Likitung to counter it but both can be beaten with subplot as as soon as they get worn down. People who want a pokemon with more offense presence will usually resort to using Pawniard or Houndour. And as Rowan said Pawn cant switch in safely and Houndour can be easily worn down via stealth rock or any nuetral damaging move. In my opinion, If Missy was banned there would be little reason to use Pawniard as it's main niche was beating misdreavus and simultaneously providing an offensive presence. I also think that a team being weak to Misdreavus is not a good team because it has the bulk, speed, and power to easily rip through.
 

Celticpride

Detox just to Retox
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
-A Fletchling ban should be handled carefully, because without it ChloroDrought could possibly run wild (what stops Bellsprout, Bulba and Oddish?). Fletchling seems to have a decent amount of answers in the tier and only requires one team slot to counter/answer.
-Mienfoo has never been difficult to deal with for me, and Croagunk does a decent job answering, even with Acrobatics (max attack Acrobatics only has a 12% chance to 2HKO, and Acrobatics is only used on 6% on Meinfoo. Sludge Bomb 2HKOs in return 88% of the time).
-I do not think Pawniard is an issue, although Knock Off in general might be. Croagunk is only afraid of Psycho Cut, and by running Psycho Cut it is forgoing other coverage options (Brick Break, Iron Head). In the theoretical meta where Knock Off is banned, Sucker Punch is easy to play around and Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave are very common.
-BD ZigZag can be a pain, and I haven't had much experience dealing with it. Although things similar to that (BD Azu, GeoXerneas) are generally useless if you can force them out. Again, haven't dealt with it and I am not sure how easy forcing it out can be.

This is my first LC Suspect Test, and I am not formally nominating anything in this post (if that's how this works, still not clear about that). Just some quick hits after hitting the COIL reqs. Feel free to respond/tear my thoughts apart.
 
Last edited:
-BD ZigZag can be a pain, and I haven't had much experience dealing with it. Although things similar to that (BD Azu, GeoXerneas) are generally useless if you can force them out. Again, haven't dealt with it and I am not sure how easy forcing it out can be.
Excuse me but that makes no sense, you can't say a Pokémon isn't broken just by comparing it to another Pokémon that is completely different, it isn't logical at all. Zigzagoon has access to STAB Extremespeed and not a lot of things can survive that at +6 aswell as Thief to recover an item after consuming Berry Juice and to also deal with Ghost-types and sometimes Steel-types, that's something Azumarill can't do with Aqua Jet nor Xerneas. So please, let's not compare a Pokémon in LC to a Pokémon in another completely different metagame.
 
I think I'll go for Misdreavus and only Misdreavus for now.

In my opinion Misdreavus has been overcentralizing the metagame for a while. The problem about Misdreavus, like Rowan said, is nothing can switch into it safely because every Pokémon in the metagame can get hit hard by its moves because of its almost perfect coverage with Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam and Hidden Power Fighting, you can also predict a switch into one of its potential checks and go for Substitute or even Nasty Plot. Some people rely on Sucker Punch to knock it down but it doesn't always work as most Misdreavus nowadays run SubJuice. Long story short, Misdreavus doesn't have any real counters in the metagame and you should always sack something to take it down, and even then it might switch out unless you trap it with Pursuit Pokémon like Stunky and Pawniard.
I partially agree, but the funny thing is that i could replace Misdreavus with Abra or Gastly and Subjuice with Sash, and the same thing could be said so that's not the point. The difference mainly is that misdreavus can still switch on many attacks, even super effective, because of being bulky and 3 immunities while outspeeding, so what really is unsettling about Misdreavus is that there are quite a different sets that need different kind of answers, and for the most, you'll never really know until it's setup.
There are actually some checks and counters on the tier, but that people don't really use because they're just partially viable. Stunky, fairy types like Spritzee, Cottonee, Foongus (Psychic is not that regular), recycle Magnemite are examples of pokemon that actually can reliably switch and kill dreavus or cripple him on the most used coverages, or force him out, because it's not like dreavus is going to nasty plot or sub in front of whoever he's trying to check before you switch, exactly because of the overall spamming of Knock off in the tier. Again what makes Misdreavus unique in comparison to other ghost type is it's ability to take a super effective hit while outspeeding, and so it can check even fighting/normal types with knock off if he switches on their stab moves for example.
Sub+plot comes at the cost of losing its HP Fighting or dazzling gleam, for which there are more counters available, like litleo, porygon, lickitung, aipom, vullaby and possibly others.
That you must sacrifice something to deal with it sometimes, happens with a lot of pokemon, you can't really expect to beat some pokemon without a cost, there's always a way he'll be able to hurt you, being it status, knock offs, damage itself and others. If you kill someone and the opponent sets up a revenge killer like Abra, you'll have to prolly really sacrifice a pokemon to deal with him, just because he has huge raw damage and nice coverage, and also the possibility of running sub sets.
 
Last edited:
-Mienfoo has never been difficult to deal with for me, and Croagunk does a decent job answering, even with Acrobatics (max attack Acrobatics only has a 12% chance to 2HKO, and Acrobatics is only used on 6% on Meinfoo. Sludge Bomb 2HKOs in return 88% of the time).
You used 55 BP Acrobatics in your calcs. The entire point of using Acrobatics is so Mienfoo can switch into Knock Off from Fighting-types (Mienfoo, Timburr, Croagunk), and threaten back with a super effective 110 BP attack. Mienfoo does a good 60-80% to bulky fighters even if they have Evio, meaning if they've been knocked off or taken a bit of prior damage Mienfoo beats them and heals off the Knock Off damage with Regenerator.
 

Quote

Cautiously Optimistic
is a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Co-Leader
I think this will be the first suspect voting where I can't predict what both suspects will be. I have a strong feeling Misdreavus will be one, but the second one could be anything between Pawniard, Mienfoo, Fletchling. Hell, you might still have people that want to nominate Berry Juice/Sturdy/Smash combinations.

I'm definitely suspecting Misdreavus and Fletchling. I'll probably suspect Pawniard as well. Missy and Fletch clean up most of the meta at +2 and have methods to get around most of their checks. Fletchling and Pawniard restrict teambuilding, given how Fletch can tear through most of the meta with its prio Acro and Pawn's STAB Knock Off and general Dark/Steel offer amazing type coverage.

We'll see how things go.
 
I think this will be the first suspect voting where I can't predict what both suspects will be. I have a strong feeling Misdreavus will be one, but the second one could be anything between Pawniard, Mienfoo, Fletchling. Hell, you might still have people that want to nominate Berry Juice/Sturdy/Smash combinations.

I'm definitely suspecting Misdreavus and Fletchling. I'll probably suspect Pawniard as well. Missy and Fletch clean up most of the meta at +2 and have methods to get around most of their checks. Fletchling and Pawniard restrict teambuilding, given how Fletch can tear through most of the meta with its prio Acro and Pawn's STAB Knock Off and general Dark/Steel offer amazing type coverage.

We'll see how things go.
I don't think we really need to ban anything since it's all kinda balanced in a sort of Rock/paper/scissors game. Pawn and missy can check fletch, fletch can check mienfoo, and mienfoo checks pawn, and pawn checks dreavus to some part.
 

Celticpride

Detox just to Retox
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
You used 55 BP Acrobatics in your calcs. The entire point of using Acrobatics is so Mienfoo can switch into Knock Off from Fighting-types (Mienfoo, Timburr, Croagunk), and threaten back with a super effective 110 BP attack. Mienfoo does a good 60-80% to bulky fighters even if they have Evio, meaning if they've been knocked off or taken a bit of prior damage Mienfoo beats them and heals off the Knock Off damage with Regenerator.
That makes sense. I haven't run into the situation of powering up the Acrobatics, most people I have run into spam it against any Fighting type.

Excuse me but that makes no sense, you can't say a Pokémon isn't broken just by comparing it to another Pokémon that is completely different, it isn't logical at all. Zigzagoon has access to STAB Extremespeed and not a lot of things can survive that at +6 aswell as Thief to recover an item after consuming Berry Juice and to also deal with Ghost-types and sometimes Steel-types, that's something Azumarill can't do with Aqua Jet nor Xerneas. So please, let's not compare a Pokémon in LC to a Pokémon in another completely different metagame.
Comparing it to a Pokemon from another Meta was a mistake, my bad.
 

Quote

Cautiously Optimistic
is a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Co-Leader
I don't think we really need to ban anything since it's all kinda balanced in a sort of Rock/paper/scissors game. Pawn and missy can check fletch, fletch can check mienfoo, and mienfoo checks pawn, and pawn checks dreavus to some part.
There are two problems with that. One, you're implying that we need to use S Ranks to beat other S Ranks. Two, you're disregarding the rest of the meta and what those 4 pokes do to them. The S Rank pokes (yes, I consider Fletch S Rank) might have conflicts with each other, but they each have tools to deal with almost every Pokemon in the meta.
 
There are two problems with that. One, you're implying that we need to use S Ranks to beat other S Ranks. Two, you're disregarding the rest of the meta and what those 4 pokes do to them. The S Rank pokes (yes, I consider Fletch S Rank) might have conflicts with each other, but they each have tools to deal with almost every Pokemon in the meta.
I'm not implying that, i'm just saying that even among the S-Ranked they kinda play a rock/paper/scissors game, and each of them has counters for each set from different non-ranked-S pokemon.

I think rank-s for fletchling is very situational to the actual state of the meta, and mainly because it checks the high usage fighting types, a few months ago it wasn't anywhere near that, back when we had gligar, murk and meditite for example. The fact that people keep using fighting types allowing fletchling to sweep through, is what makes him mostly strong actually. Murk and gligar had no major problem dealing with Fletchling, and they also checked fighting types along with swirlix, which made fletchling kinda redundanct except to deal with swirlix itself for the most.

Fighting types are mostly used because of knock off/stab drainpunch, mainly to weaken walls and deal with pawniard and other steel/rock/normal types. Steel and Rock which are almost non existant and could actually check fletchling.
So it's kinda of a cat and mouse chase, where fletch checks fighting and fighting checks the types that would check Fletch.

So in conclusion, fighting types are the ones making either fletchling stronger and rock/steel types weaker, for which they are the real responsible for fletch to be a candidate to rank-s

Fletch and Pawniard are 2 majorly important pokemons on the actual meta because of their stab and prioritys in the actual metagame, but could be majorly overlooked if the metagame shifted away from fighting types and it's counters, because that's mostly the truth about how people centralize the game: they use fighting types and counters/walls for each fighting type basically, with maybe a support pokemon.
And well, we all know why fighting types are used so much- they are bulky/fast and have mostly good recovery and great coverage that makes them not having many solid checks/counters, they keep psychic types away from being viable by themselves basically with the obvious exception of Abra for being fast, but is still rather fragile and doensn't really want to switch on fighting types potential knock off.

In my team for example, i have basically 4 out of 6 pokemon checking fighting types, and the other 2 can either lure them and cripple them. Tells wonders about how fighting centralizes the game.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top