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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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In terms of raw stats, they have exactly the same attack after a boost (24), and while Larvitar has slightly better special defense (12 vs 10) Cranidos has better HP (24 vs 21 Shrug I'm not a huge fan of getting extra SR damage, maybe put that at 23 instead?) and a significantly better speed (26 vs 21) so it can actually outspeed scarfers. Sheer Force vs Guts is a thing I guess, but it's a matter of burns screw Cranidos over but Sheer Force lets Rock Slide hit harder than Larvitar disregarding guts. Larvitar gets STAB on Earthquake, at the cost of having an extra weakness to ice (which hurts in the Porygon matchup) and more severe weakness to water and grass (mostly unimportant, but still real). Superpower vs Fire Punch doesn't matter too much, although it lets Cranidos beat Foongus and Pumpkaboo a lot more easily than Larvitar. ZHB is also nice for stuff like Timburr and Mienfoo.
I guess in the end it's largely up to personal preference. Larvitar is better if you want to absorb a burn from something like Ponyta while Cranidos can KO slow things more easily without a boost, like weakened Porygon, Spritzee or Foongus.
e: ok it was a joke.
here's why eviolite rp cranidos is a viable larvitar alternative
larvitar isn't terrible consider using it i guess but you can also use cranidos
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Ok i'm going to comment on some things in the current meta I think have gotten better and worse relative to their positions during the suspect.
BETTER: Sun
Sun's been really seeing a resurgence lately in effectiveness if not usage. This might be teambuilding oversight, but it seems bellsprout shreds teams, particularly the bulky-offense paradigm dudes are very fond of rn. The steady decrease of Fletch means prio is a generally ineffective way of handling Sprout, and the bulk of more teams means they rely on one fat counter other members of a sun team can eaily get at; view matches where Porygon comes in to check spout and ends uo under siege from both foo and pawn. Throw in additional wrinkles like dual fire (pix and [blank], i like dour) teams and you have a formidable teamstyle that should probably get more looks.
WORSE: Webs
Dont get me wrong, webs are still very potent in this meta. But more stuff has arisen that gets at them. Snivy is public enemy #1 of webs, and Kingler12345 has been bringing that up in usage. Pawniard has gotten no worse and giving that a free +2 is dangerous no matter how much you slow it down. The fatmons I alluded to (Vulla, Pory) that are ascending do a good job at least slowing webs teams and decreasing the seemingly unbeatable pressure they can apply. I'm sure webs will adapt to this meta and become as good as ever, but the current builds (perhaps w/ hogg's exempted) arent suited as well to the current meta as that of the past.
BETTER: Stunky / Pursuit
Stunky does a great job of selectively dismantling teams with Pursuit, eliminating often vital members of the other team preventing a Timburr sweep, for example. It also is an easy way - perhaps the only way - to rid yourself of abra bullshit, to stop gastly too. it has good general utility being semithreatening with sludge bomb and fire blast, can even defog if u need it. Other Pursuiters are also very good, honedge filling the niche of an abra check + fletch check along with pursuit duties, Houndour being a threat as well as being a good user of the move, even BJ Cranidos taking out Fletch with a well-timed pursuit. (all of these seem to set up scarffoo sweeps btw)
Worse: Trappers (goth n dig)
This was inevitable. Post-suspect, everyone adapted to these two to the point where they are useful, but almost never game-winning. In hindsight, these are probably good for the metagame - the needed skill to keep your fighting type out of trap range, the way to push a goth kill back until it doesnt rip you open, all sorts of complexities brought by trappers - and im glad we kept them. Still annoying whenever they get some sucker kill, but that's much more uncommon now then the ghastly time of a few months ago.
BETTER: Sun
Sun's been really seeing a resurgence lately in effectiveness if not usage. This might be teambuilding oversight, but it seems bellsprout shreds teams, particularly the bulky-offense paradigm dudes are very fond of rn. The steady decrease of Fletch means prio is a generally ineffective way of handling Sprout, and the bulk of more teams means they rely on one fat counter other members of a sun team can eaily get at; view matches where Porygon comes in to check spout and ends uo under siege from both foo and pawn. Throw in additional wrinkles like dual fire (pix and [blank], i like dour) teams and you have a formidable teamstyle that should probably get more looks.
WORSE: Webs
Dont get me wrong, webs are still very potent in this meta. But more stuff has arisen that gets at them. Snivy is public enemy #1 of webs, and Kingler12345 has been bringing that up in usage. Pawniard has gotten no worse and giving that a free +2 is dangerous no matter how much you slow it down. The fatmons I alluded to (Vulla, Pory) that are ascending do a good job at least slowing webs teams and decreasing the seemingly unbeatable pressure they can apply. I'm sure webs will adapt to this meta and become as good as ever, but the current builds (perhaps w/ hogg's exempted) arent suited as well to the current meta as that of the past.
BETTER: Stunky / Pursuit
Stunky does a great job of selectively dismantling teams with Pursuit, eliminating often vital members of the other team preventing a Timburr sweep, for example. It also is an easy way - perhaps the only way - to rid yourself of abra bullshit, to stop gastly too. it has good general utility being semithreatening with sludge bomb and fire blast, can even defog if u need it. Other Pursuiters are also very good, honedge filling the niche of an abra check + fletch check along with pursuit duties, Houndour being a threat as well as being a good user of the move, even BJ Cranidos taking out Fletch with a well-timed pursuit. (all of these seem to set up scarffoo sweeps btw)
Worse: Trappers (goth n dig)
This was inevitable. Post-suspect, everyone adapted to these two to the point where they are useful, but almost never game-winning. In hindsight, these are probably good for the metagame - the needed skill to keep your fighting type out of trap range, the way to push a goth kill back until it doesnt rip you open, all sorts of complexities brought by trappers - and im glad we kept them. Still annoying whenever they get some sucker kill, but that's much more uncommon now then the ghastly time of a few months ago.
Something interesting is the sets people are running now compared to a few months ago. For example, using the 1760 stats (yeah, I know, ladder and all that) Mienfoo's moves look fairly different compared to August.
High Jump Kick 37.651% (Oct)
High Jump Kick 26.723% (Aug)
This fairly well mirrors what I've seen in battles with other users, where HJK seems to be becoming the 4th move of choice, or even replace Drain Punch. Speaking of Drain Punch, it's usage is slightly down, but all other moves fell drastically. Fake Out's much further down, same with Acrobatics. However, both Taunt and Stone Edge in particular (going from 6.615% all the way up to 13.975%) are up.
Chinchou's scarf usage has dropped drastically.
Choice Scarf 23.383% (Oct, falling behind both BJ and Evio)
Choice Scarf 38.699% (Aug, making it the number 1 set!)
Similarly, Eviolite Chinchou is up a lot. This might be a response to increased Magnemite visibility, since BJ Chinchou can struggle to repeatedly counter HP Ground, but it's also strange that Scarf has dropped so much considering that it can actually beat Diglett on a double switch, unlike BJ or even Eviolite.
Bizarrely, Sash and LO usage on Diglett appear to have virtually switched compared to August. Sash is apparently more popular on high ladder now. Weird. Also Sub usage is down, while Memento usage is up a bit. Similarly, Gastly has switched from more Sash to more LO now, which is probably good. It also has more HP fighting usage.
LO usage on Drilbur is down, which is a travesty. It hits very, very hard and is good, I swear.
Porygon abilities:
Download 55.232% | | Trace 44.549% (Aug)
Trace 56.685% | | Download 43.090% (Oct)
This doesn't really match with what I've seen lately in private battles but eh what do I know. Interesting to note I guess. Could also be a response to the MASSIVE NUMBER OF DIGLETT.
A lot of mons stayed the same, but trends have shifted in a way that reflects the surge in usage of trappers, but also just plain metagame shifts. They're cool to see happen.
High Jump Kick 37.651% (Oct)
High Jump Kick 26.723% (Aug)
This fairly well mirrors what I've seen in battles with other users, where HJK seems to be becoming the 4th move of choice, or even replace Drain Punch. Speaking of Drain Punch, it's usage is slightly down, but all other moves fell drastically. Fake Out's much further down, same with Acrobatics. However, both Taunt and Stone Edge in particular (going from 6.615% all the way up to 13.975%) are up.
Chinchou's scarf usage has dropped drastically.
Choice Scarf 23.383% (Oct, falling behind both BJ and Evio)
Choice Scarf 38.699% (Aug, making it the number 1 set!)
Similarly, Eviolite Chinchou is up a lot. This might be a response to increased Magnemite visibility, since BJ Chinchou can struggle to repeatedly counter HP Ground, but it's also strange that Scarf has dropped so much considering that it can actually beat Diglett on a double switch, unlike BJ or even Eviolite.
Bizarrely, Sash and LO usage on Diglett appear to have virtually switched compared to August. Sash is apparently more popular on high ladder now. Weird. Also Sub usage is down, while Memento usage is up a bit. Similarly, Gastly has switched from more Sash to more LO now, which is probably good. It also has more HP fighting usage.
LO usage on Drilbur is down, which is a travesty. It hits very, very hard and is good, I swear.
Porygon abilities:
Download 55.232% | | Trace 44.549% (Aug)
Trace 56.685% | | Download 43.090% (Oct)
This doesn't really match with what I've seen lately in private battles but eh what do I know. Interesting to note I guess. Could also be a response to the MASSIVE NUMBER OF DIGLETT.
A lot of mons stayed the same, but trends have shifted in a way that reflects the surge in usage of trappers, but also just plain metagame shifts. They're cool to see happen.
For what its worth, I emplore all of you to abuse the fuck out of Psychic + SD Drilbur + SD Fighting-type
simply the amount of pressure you can put onto teams is ridiculous, and it punishes players for simply clicking Pursuit on their Stunky or Scarf Pawniard. Double Swords Dance is super threatening as well, and I honestly can see this type of core becoming fairly meta. It basically punishes trapping in general, by giving free switchins to some of the most powerful things out there
simply the amount of pressure you can put onto teams is ridiculous, and it punishes players for simply clicking Pursuit on their Stunky or Scarf Pawniard. Double Swords Dance is super threatening as well, and I honestly can see this type of core becoming fairly meta. It basically punishes trapping in general, by giving free switchins to some of the most powerful things out there
Also fantastic in the meta right now are offensive cores built around Speed-boosting Rock-types (Omanyte, Tirtouga, ¡RP Cranidos!) and bulky Grass-types (Eviolite Snivy, Foongus). The cores (particularly Cran+Foong) are very effective at getting set up opportunities by luring in threats to the Grass type to set up the Rock type. For example:
Foongus switches into foe's FastFoo
Mienfoo U-turns into Vullaby, Foongus uses Sludge Bomb
Foongus switches out to Cranidos, Cran eats a Knock Off or, more likely, a Brave Bird
Cran sets up a Rock Polish as Mienfoo comes out
Cran OHKOs Foo with ZHB
Cran kills literally everything
Get hazards up, remove Timburr, Croagunk, and other Prio users irksome to RP or SSers, and win!
Also this was totally a plug for the RMT Shrug and I are writing
Foongus switches into foe's FastFoo
Mienfoo U-turns into Vullaby, Foongus uses Sludge Bomb
Foongus switches out to Cranidos, Cran eats a Knock Off or, more likely, a Brave Bird
Cran sets up a Rock Polish as Mienfoo comes out
Cran OHKOs Foo with ZHB
Cran kills literally everything
Get hazards up, remove Timburr, Croagunk, and other Prio users irksome to RP or SSers, and win!
Also this was totally a plug for the RMT Shrug and I are writing
OK I'm gonna make a post about something that I believe is more unhealthy for the meta than Shrug believes abra is, and is probably more controversial than that too. Thunder Wave is an absolutely fucking stupid move that needs to go. It's kind of similar to scald, but scald doesn't make it so that your check to x mon has a 25% chance (only slightly less than scald's burn chance) to be completely unable to move and end up losing to the thing you're supposed to check. This is compounded by the fact that the Electric- and Ground-types that are immune to Thunder Wave generally don't enjoy switching into Thunder Wave users (Drilbur, Chinchou, Magnemite) or are super frail and can't switch into anything (Elekid, Diglett), making simply clicking Thunder Wave almost completely risk-free.
Normally, I wouldn't have a problem with this--hax is a part of the game. However, a user: thiagoharry has made a team that pushes Thunder Wave over the line into uncompetitiveness. His strategy is to: click Thunder Wave, and then click Substitute until he gets a full paralysis. This esentially makes the game waiting for what the RNG spits out, as if you switch out, he gets a free sub up and then just paralyzes your switchin. This behavior was outlined in OU's recent official tiering policy as "uncompetitive":
Here are some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-257367844
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-251649092
As you can see, thiagoharry is much worse of a player than his opponents here, failing to make incredibly obvious predictions and keeping mons in on their hard counters. However, he still manages to win thanks to "yellow magic".
Thunder Wave woudn't be nearly as big of a problem if it didn't have such a wide distribution. 53 LC-legal Pokemon get the move, which is approximately 22% of all LC-legal Pokemon. Out of these, 13 are B- or higher in the viability rankings. This makes Thunder Wave ridiculously common, as you can see in pretty much any match to a Ferroseed, or Porygon (this is a lot of matches).
The other paralysis-causing moves, Glare and Stun Spore, aren't nearly as common, mostly due to low distribution. I honestly feel that LC would be a much better metagame without Thunder Wave, and that it should be at least looked at.
tl;dr Thunder Wave is cancer
Normally, I wouldn't have a problem with this--hax is a part of the game. However, a user: thiagoharry has made a team that pushes Thunder Wave over the line into uncompetitiveness. His strategy is to: click Thunder Wave, and then click Substitute until he gets a full paralysis. This esentially makes the game waiting for what the RNG spits out, as if you switch out, he gets a free sub up and then just paralyzes your switchin. This behavior was outlined in OU's recent official tiering policy as "uncompetitive":
Here are some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-257367844
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-251649092
As you can see, thiagoharry is much worse of a player than his opponents here, failing to make incredibly obvious predictions and keeping mons in on their hard counters. However, he still manages to win thanks to "yellow magic".
Thunder Wave woudn't be nearly as big of a problem if it didn't have such a wide distribution. 53 LC-legal Pokemon get the move, which is approximately 22% of all LC-legal Pokemon. Out of these, 13 are B- or higher in the viability rankings. This makes Thunder Wave ridiculously common, as you can see in pretty much any match to a Ferroseed, or Porygon (this is a lot of matches).
The other paralysis-causing moves, Glare and Stun Spore, aren't nearly as common, mostly due to low distribution. I honestly feel that LC would be a much better metagame without Thunder Wave, and that it should be at least looked at.
tl;dr Thunder Wave is cancer
lol we've been down this road before (i.e. bp test)
just because some dude tears your shit up on the ladder utilizing some under-prepared for, unreliable strategy does not make it broken, aids, cancer, or w/e else you want to call it. other than the fact that this sub / twave strat uses 2 non-attacking moves, relying on a 25% chance to be any bit effective at all is the very definition of unreliable. also, if it's annoying you that much, you have access to two great heal bellers / aroma users in chinchou and spritzee, who are arguably some of the best mons in the meta anyways. continually, you have ground types and electrics who are immune to twave, it's not hard at all to throw one or two of those on a team. hell, you even have guts users like timburr who would love to be para'd, gaining power and having access to mach punch to remedy speed issues.
thunder wave is not, and will never be, too much to handle in lc, or in any meta for that matter.
just because some dude tears your shit up on the ladder utilizing some under-prepared for, unreliable strategy does not make it broken, aids, cancer, or w/e else you want to call it. other than the fact that this sub / twave strat uses 2 non-attacking moves, relying on a 25% chance to be any bit effective at all is the very definition of unreliable. also, if it's annoying you that much, you have access to two great heal bellers / aroma users in chinchou and spritzee, who are arguably some of the best mons in the meta anyways. continually, you have ground types and electrics who are immune to twave, it's not hard at all to throw one or two of those on a team. hell, you even have guts users like timburr who would love to be para'd, gaining power and having access to mach punch to remedy speed issues.
thunder wave is not, and will never be, too much to handle in lc, or in any meta for that matter.
So usage stats are out here: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-11/
Interesting thing to note is that on the 1760 stats Snubbull has overtaken Spritzee in usage. There's some other stuff too, but overall it's mostly the same as last month, nothing groundbreaking.
Interesting thing to note is that on the 1760 stats Snubbull has overtaken Spritzee in usage. There's some other stuff too, but overall it's mostly the same as last month, nothing groundbreaking.
Last month (1760 stats)
18 | Surskit | 11.29164%
This month (1760 stats)
19 | Surskit | 10.37295%
yeah, pretty much web is popular
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| 61 | Torchic | 1.16184% | 5602 | 4.775% | 4589 | 5.158% |
Okay...
| 54 | Magby | 2.09056% | 3303 | 2.816% | 2514 | 2.826% |
Okay wat
| 56 | Inkay | 1.46895% | 3791 | 3.231% | 2882 | 3.240% |
-_- Rllly
| 57 | Clamperl | 1.38655% | 4669 | 3.980% | 3514 | 3.950% |
>:( Now I'm getting mad
| 58 | Pineco | 1.37628% | 2317 | 1.975% | 2108 | 2.370% |
Yeah, I'm not exactly agreeing with these new stats right now lol, like who uses stuff like Clamperl more than Torchic oml
Other interesting stats:
| 49 | Natu | 2.66143% | 2789 | 2.377% | 2161 | 2.429% |
| 66 | Cubone | 0.88885% | 4707 | 4.012% | 3630 | 4.080% |
| 68 | Taillow | 0.88024% | 2802 | 2.388% | 2011 | 2.261% |
82 | Cyndaquil | 0.55453% | 2554 | 2.177% | 1855 | 2.085% |
^ That is used more than stuff like Geodude and Rufflet oml
Okay...
| 54 | Magby | 2.09056% | 3303 | 2.816% | 2514 | 2.826% |
Okay wat
| 56 | Inkay | 1.46895% | 3791 | 3.231% | 2882 | 3.240% |
-_- Rllly
| 57 | Clamperl | 1.38655% | 4669 | 3.980% | 3514 | 3.950% |
>:( Now I'm getting mad
| 58 | Pineco | 1.37628% | 2317 | 1.975% | 2108 | 2.370% |
Yeah, I'm not exactly agreeing with these new stats right now lol, like who uses stuff like Clamperl more than Torchic oml
Other interesting stats:
| 49 | Natu | 2.66143% | 2789 | 2.377% | 2161 | 2.429% |
| 66 | Cubone | 0.88885% | 4707 | 4.012% | 3630 | 4.080% |
| 68 | Taillow | 0.88024% | 2802 | 2.388% | 2011 | 2.261% |
82 | Cyndaquil | 0.55453% | 2554 | 2.177% | 1855 | 2.085% |
^ That is used more than stuff like Geodude and Rufflet oml
I feel like you are trying to comment on how the Viability Rankings do not align with usage stats, and while this is a correct observation, it really should not matter. Usage can denote viability, and viability can denote usage. Usage Stats and the VR are entirely separate entities that share the function of documenting the relevancy of pokemon, but former does so through commonness and the latter through effectivity.
You guys are welcome n_n
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LC currently has two very, very distinct houses of thought for how the meta is currently; if you ask any avid LC player about the state of the meta, the responces you get are either a) it's extremely offensive or b) very balance oriented. In either case, this is a rather stark contrast to XY and even early ORAS where much more passive teams were common, and spurred the usage of outrageous wallbreaks such as Doduo and SD Pawnaird. Additionally since Missy's ban over a year ago, standard Mienfoo has become 17 Speed Taunt instead of 13 Speed commonly running Acrobatics. High Jump Kick has started to gain traction even on 0 attack sets too, hinting at a much faster and more aggressive style of play. Snubbull and Analytic Magnemite are other things which denote the much more aggressive meta, as does less low usage of SD Panda and the other insane wall breakers which decimate stall. Water types have also become much more meta defining, with Omantye, Tirtouga, Corphish, and Skrelp all pressuring balance teams heavily while not being complete dead-weights versus variants of offense. This is again incredibly different from earlier meta trends of LC, where very frequently Omantye was often not truly prepared for. It's rather interesting to see how this plays out with the meta, as now Drifloon and Shellder and Corphish are staples of teams despite being scarcely considered 6 months ago.
To add to this, we now have situations where Pokemon that took defensive roles simply because it follows their design are opting for more offensive options, such as Download Porygon and Offensive Vullaby, and while these sets have existed for quite some time, their popularity now is higher than it ever has been.
For the love of fuck though please don't use that offensive Spritzee set it's not good.
Tank Spritzee is REVOLUTIONARY
It feels like people are using different sets either just to see what they do or because they're more effective thanks to people trying out new stuff. It's a good thing that's kind of demonstrating that even in a balanced meta (really, this is the most balanced the meta has ever been, better than BW at least) you still get shifts because people get bored.
No seriously, people have been trying out a bunch of weird stuff like Nosepass and it's kind of worked. We had some of that back during the suspect era but that was stuff like Exeggcute for Meditite or Nincada for Drilbur I think.
No seriously, people have been trying out a bunch of weird stuff like Nosepass and it's kind of worked. We had some of that back during the suspect era but that was stuff like Exeggcute for Meditite or Nincada for Drilbur I think.
Use Covet Spritzee, I heard that the dude who popularized it is flames
So that this isn't ENTIRELY a shitpost, I'll add some comments about the current metagame. I think we're going into SPL with the most balanced and most enjoyable metagame that LC's had since DPP. Any hoopla about broken Pokemon has calmed down, the metagame is favoring offense once again, and the playerbase is continuing to build creative teams that are generally result in entertaining matches. Trappers have even become less devastating in matches as more players slap Flame Charge onto their Ponyta and pack Pursuit on various Pokemon. People are turning to fat wallbreakers, namely Corphish / Evio Snivy / Skrelp, and fast cleaners, namely Gastly / Carvanha / Vulpix, which is leading to much more action-packed games; as long as all of that Kaleidoscope bullshit semi-stall is in the past, I'm content.
I'd go off on a tangent about fun stuff I've been tinkering with but I'll have to keep that shit under wraps til down the road; however, most of you that test with me regularly have seen some of these gems (and some of these duds lol).
Also, Last Resort Porygon is a threat that every team should prepare for.
(kinda sniped by Merritt)
So that this isn't ENTIRELY a shitpost, I'll add some comments about the current metagame. I think we're going into SPL with the most balanced and most enjoyable metagame that LC's had since DPP. Any hoopla about broken Pokemon has calmed down, the metagame is favoring offense once again, and the playerbase is continuing to build creative teams that are generally result in entertaining matches. Trappers have even become less devastating in matches as more players slap Flame Charge onto their Ponyta and pack Pursuit on various Pokemon. People are turning to fat wallbreakers, namely Corphish / Evio Snivy / Skrelp, and fast cleaners, namely Gastly / Carvanha / Vulpix, which is leading to much more action-packed games; as long as all of that Kaleidoscope bullshit semi-stall is in the past, I'm content.
I'd go off on a tangent about fun stuff I've been tinkering with but I'll have to keep that shit under wraps til down the road; however, most of you that test with me regularly have seen some of these gems (and some of these duds lol).
Also, Last Resort Porygon is a threat that every team should prepare for.
(kinda sniped by Merritt)
Deadass here 252 / 252 spritzee w/ moonblast and psychic is an animal. I pray every day for healing wish on it in Pokemon z. Beats gastly with crisp predicts and outruns skrelp for the 2hko w/ psychic. Knock off foongus with your foo then cm with spritzee as it comes in, kill with psychic. I've been tweaking with last moves on it (first three being moonblast psychic cm) and found covet fun but trick room very very good for beating up on offensive teams. Sort of weird given you're running speed but you'll find teams where 12 doesn't beat anything; here, tr works. Pair this view with a pursuit trapper, I like edge but scarf pawn could also be run. Rich set
Nah all you gotta do is run 25 / 14 / 14 bulk with max SpA and 9 Speed and wishtect / moonblast / psychic, to lure in shit like Foong and Gunk for a Snivy or something. You could probs run more speed but then you have to lose out on wishtect to capitalize on the increased speed and subsequent lack of bulk and to open up coverage. Pair said tank spritzee with an equally bulky but slightly faster Download Porygon with perhaps a Hidden Power Fire (RIP FERROSEED) and you'll be at bulky offense to the extreme. Like I said, pair with perhaps a Snivy or a Corphish for best effect
Also I just noticed that Snivy and Corphish share a lot of checks? Somebody should probably look into this
They share like 3: Foongus, Ferroseed, and Croagunk. All of these take increased dmg from HP Fire, so maybe a LO snives set with hp fire would partner well with corph!
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