Ok, whatever still very good.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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Misdreavus is beaten by so many Pokemon in this metagame it isn't even funny. It's not even hard to unintentionally run a Misdreavus check, be it Pawniard, Cottonee, etc. It cannot switch in reliably, as Pokemon such as Mienfoo and Timburr still beat it if it switches in on Knock Off. Dazzling does not KO. If Misdreavus runs Dazzling, it loses to Pawniard. If it runs HP Fight, it loses to so many other things, such as Scraggy. If it runs both, it is almost always Nasty Plot, which is easy to not let it set up. If you let it set up, that is your own fault. It is not Tangela, where you needed to run bad stuff like Goomy to beat it.
sorry for off topic but
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-123591396
This is a replay v quotecs in which I used a lil DragMag team.
Axew is a great cleaner, and has many oppurtunities to set up, because with eviolite it can take hits, and it's outrage is horribly powerful after only 1 DD
Dratini did relatively little, but it's mostly my backup check to fletchling cuz espeed reks fletch.
If you know how to play dragons, they work really well. Anyone used some drags since i brought em up or am i just talking to myself here ;_;
Team's name is: The Power of NSYNC- Tearin Up My Heart
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-123591396
This is a replay v quotecs in which I used a lil DragMag team.
Axew is a great cleaner, and has many oppurtunities to set up, because with eviolite it can take hits, and it's outrage is horribly powerful after only 1 DD
Dratini did relatively little, but it's mostly my backup check to fletchling cuz espeed reks fletch.
If you know how to play dragons, they work really well. Anyone used some drags since i brought em up or am i just talking to myself here ;_;
Team's name is: The Power of NSYNC- Tearin Up My Heart
wtf cottonee doesnt beat missy. missy can take a knock off and KO, i have seen bulky missy eat them shits. If runs hp fight it does not lose to scraggy. pawn is situaltional as i have said.
Um Misdreavus cannot set up if Cottonee is alive. Cottonee can simply Encore it into something useless, such as HP Fight, Nasty Plot, Will o Wisp, Destiny Bond, or Substitute. Therefore it is a safe check. I never said it KOes Misdreavus. How is Pawniard situational? It switches into anything Misdreavus has bar HP Fight, and OHKOes it / hits enemy with Knock Off. Its not situational, its a check. A damn good one too. You can write any offensive checks off as "situational" as much as you want, but your subjectivity means nothing. Misdreavus is easily played around by any decent team, and quite honestly if you consistently lose to it, you are bad at the game. Scraggy has always beaten Misdreavus from Generation 5 to 6, as long as it does not run Dazzling Gleam. It is barely 2hkoed (12%) and is not OHKOed by +2 Hidden Power Fighting.
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 36 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 16-20 (72.7 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 36 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 10-12 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
And that is minimum bulk. You can easily take points away from Attack and run more SpD to reduce the chance to 2hko. Honestly have you even run calcs, or thought up points? As of yet, your entire argument has been reduced to "This is situational" and you are essentially talking without any knowledge. You are fine to talk about Misdreavus possibly being broken, but back it up, with calcs, replays, etc, instead of talking out of your ass.
NP only Misdreavus is countered by Porygon, Munchlax, Lickitung
HP Fight-less sets are all beaten by the above, as well as Pawniard
Dazzling Gleam-less sets are beaten by Mienfoo / Timburr / Scraggy, all Pokemon it "counters"
Pokemon often run moves simply so Misdreavus does not set up on them. Trubbish can run Payback for the OHKO. Diglett can run Thief for the 2HKO. Bunnelby can run Payback / Thief for the OHKO / 2hko.
Sets that abuse Substitute are easily beaten by Cottonee, and can be played around if you carry something like Mienfoo / Pawniard, which is extremely common.
It is easily revenged by priority attacks such as Carvanha's Aqua Jet, Fletchling's Acrobatics, among others.
I'll reiterate this: if you consistently lose to Misdreavus, it is not because it is broken. It is because you quite literally need to "gitgud." There are too many Pokemon that can revenge / check / counter Misdreavus that there is almost no excuse to lose to it every time you see it in team preview.
I hate to be this antagonistic, but you have refused to see anyone else's counterarguments. You cannot simply write them off as "situational" when they aren't. Especially since not every single set carries Substitute on their set.
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 36 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 16-20 (72.7 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 36 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 10-12 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
And that is minimum bulk. You can easily take points away from Attack and run more SpD to reduce the chance to 2hko. Honestly have you even run calcs, or thought up points? As of yet, your entire argument has been reduced to "This is situational" and you are essentially talking without any knowledge. You are fine to talk about Misdreavus possibly being broken, but back it up, with calcs, replays, etc, instead of talking out of your ass.
NP only Misdreavus is countered by Porygon, Munchlax, Lickitung
HP Fight-less sets are all beaten by the above, as well as Pawniard
Dazzling Gleam-less sets are beaten by Mienfoo / Timburr / Scraggy, all Pokemon it "counters"
Pokemon often run moves simply so Misdreavus does not set up on them. Trubbish can run Payback for the OHKO. Diglett can run Thief for the 2HKO. Bunnelby can run Payback / Thief for the OHKO / 2hko.
Sets that abuse Substitute are easily beaten by Cottonee, and can be played around if you carry something like Mienfoo / Pawniard, which is extremely common.
It is easily revenged by priority attacks such as Carvanha's Aqua Jet, Fletchling's Acrobatics, among others.
I'll reiterate this: if you consistently lose to Misdreavus, it is not because it is broken. It is because you quite literally need to "gitgud." There are too many Pokemon that can revenge / check / counter Misdreavus that there is almost no excuse to lose to it every time you see it in team preview.
I hate to be this antagonistic, but you have refused to see anyone else's counterarguments. You cannot simply write them off as "situational" when they aren't. Especially since not every single set carries Substitute on their set.
I smell another "does its access to moves that lets it beat sets or does it requires more than 4 moves at a time to be broken?" argument similar to Meditite.
You should note, however, that Misdreavus generally needs to be taken down by multiple foes, even if it's reliable and doesn't necessarily lose a Pokemon. For example, Fletchling Acro does like 40% to Eviolite missy, Aqua Jet does less probably. It's just a way to not discount the bulk/speed.
TCR, you have just proved that Misdreavus has ways to get round all of it's counters.
Porygon is basically always beaten by Sub+HP Fight, Munchlax and Lickitung are beaten by HP Fight without Sub since they can't really do a lot back to it.
Timburr, Mienfoo and Scraggy are all beaten Dazzling Gleam at +2 (timburr needs some prior damage but that's not hard to achieve).
Non-scarf Pawniard has to win mind games with Sucker Punch and it actually struggles to beat Wisp/Sub+HP Fight
Trubbish/Diglett/Bunnelby's moves are rare and often have better moves to use - if they don't run these moves however it's so easy for Missy to set up on them. It can also set up on a shittonne of other things because it's so bulky not many things can OHKO it.
I often rely on a core of Pawniard/Timburr to beat Misdreavus as Timburr can handle it with HP Fight coverage and Pawniard can handle Dazzling Gleam coverage. However if the Missy is 3 attacks this creates an issue as this isn't easily predictable so I might ended up using Knock Off on Pawniard expecting a wisp or switch only to be surprised by HP Fighting.
That being said, Missy can be played around quite easily and although in theory it's broken as fuck i've never had too much issue with it due to the amount of scarfers/priority that is around at the moment.
Porygon is basically always beaten by Sub+HP Fight, Munchlax and Lickitung are beaten by HP Fight without Sub since they can't really do a lot back to it.
Timburr, Mienfoo and Scraggy are all beaten Dazzling Gleam at +2 (timburr needs some prior damage but that's not hard to achieve).
Non-scarf Pawniard has to win mind games with Sucker Punch and it actually struggles to beat Wisp/Sub+HP Fight
Trubbish/Diglett/Bunnelby's moves are rare and often have better moves to use - if they don't run these moves however it's so easy for Missy to set up on them. It can also set up on a shittonne of other things because it's so bulky not many things can OHKO it.
I often rely on a core of Pawniard/Timburr to beat Misdreavus as Timburr can handle it with HP Fight coverage and Pawniard can handle Dazzling Gleam coverage. However if the Missy is 3 attacks this creates an issue as this isn't easily predictable so I might ended up using Knock Off on Pawniard expecting a wisp or switch only to be surprised by HP Fighting.
That being said, Missy can be played around quite easily and although in theory it's broken as fuck i've never had too much issue with it due to the amount of scarfers/priority that is around at the moment.
Yes Misdreavus does have ways to get past its checks and counters. That wasnt the point of that. The point was that depending on its moveset it is easily beaten by something common. These cores are actually reaaaaallllly good, unlike random things such as goomy beating tangela (who can be argued that is similar to missy in tht it is a really bulky attacker but i digress). Misdreavus is easily revenged, as although it may be bulky af, I personally find it cannot switch in well, due to things like knock off being spammed.
Heysup the big difference between meditite and missy is that a)it is not so easy to get rid of missys counters as it was meditites (pursuit pawn vs things like fletchling, trubbish, porygon, etc). And b) its simply not as spammable. Meditite could spam drain punches all day long and fine as long as a ghost type wasnt around. Missy cannot spam shadow ball as it is far less weak, has arguably worse typing for this meta since dArk types are around, and its other coverage moves are prediction dependant, as opposed to meditites moves. This is all beside the poont that i thought tite was fine, but that is not the thread for that.
In reiteration, the point of what i was trying to say is basically what heysup said: it needs to be taken down by more than one pokemon. However, those pokemon are not usually "obscure" allowing for even teams that do not prepare for missy to inadvertantly check it. Enough offensive pressure stops it from setting up, as its bulk is not as good as people say. I have heard people compare it to tangela :[
Heysup the big difference between meditite and missy is that a)it is not so easy to get rid of missys counters as it was meditites (pursuit pawn vs things like fletchling, trubbish, porygon, etc). And b) its simply not as spammable. Meditite could spam drain punches all day long and fine as long as a ghost type wasnt around. Missy cannot spam shadow ball as it is far less weak, has arguably worse typing for this meta since dArk types are around, and its other coverage moves are prediction dependant, as opposed to meditites moves. This is all beside the poont that i thought tite was fine, but that is not the thread for that.
In reiteration, the point of what i was trying to say is basically what heysup said: it needs to be taken down by more than one pokemon. However, those pokemon are not usually "obscure" allowing for even teams that do not prepare for missy to inadvertantly check it. Enough offensive pressure stops it from setting up, as its bulk is not as good as people say. I have heard people compare it to tangela :[
My point wasn't to compare Misdreavus to Meditite because they obviously function very differently, but it was to say that counters are generally movepool dependant.
Another circle I don't want to fall into is saying "Misdreavus has X counters so it's not broken" because, at least from my experience in the Meditite discussion, people were suggesting that Meditite literally had to be super mega Arceus powerful to be banned like taking +6 Extreme Speeds (which Misdreavus does, ironically) and had to have like 0 viable counters. It can have an infinite number of "counters" and still be just "too strong" for the metagame. There is no minimum or maximum counter for a broken Pokemon as there might have been 2-3 generations ago.
I'm mostly leaning towards broken because of the fact that even though it can be taken down by common offensive threats, it's usually going to take a Pokemon with it and those Pokemon are very prediction oriented and movepool dependent. Not because it's a super god, because it's "too good".
Another circle I don't want to fall into is saying "Misdreavus has X counters so it's not broken" because, at least from my experience in the Meditite discussion, people were suggesting that Meditite literally had to be super mega Arceus powerful to be banned like taking +6 Extreme Speeds (which Misdreavus does, ironically) and had to have like 0 viable counters. It can have an infinite number of "counters" and still be just "too strong" for the metagame. There is no minimum or maximum counter for a broken Pokemon as there might have been 2-3 generations ago.
I'm mostly leaning towards broken because of the fact that even though it can be taken down by common offensive threats, it's usually going to take a Pokemon with it and those Pokemon are very prediction oriented and movepool dependent. Not because it's a super god, because it's "too good".
Alright this post is giving me a tumor. I guess Misdreavus can run 5 moves now as well as automatically getting +2 if Porygon is out. I'm also assuming Misdreavus isn't vulnerable to priority or revenge scarfers. Using Misdreavus will also let you automatically predict correctly every time.
Misdreavus is strong, and it fits on most teams but saying it broken and can potentially beat all of its checks just tells me your game knowledge is garbage. Offensive mons are supposed have the capability to beat their checks, that's literally the definition of a check. If you're going to respond to that with "it has no counters" then I hope you know that having no counters =/= broken. Vulpix doesn't have counters, BAN VULPIX :I
I used Bulky Houndour all of last generation to deal with Misdreavus, this was then every Missy ran HP Fighting and when it was 70 BP, I'm sure it'll work now too.
I think it's unfair to just put down an argument but not actually supply reasoning why it doesn't matter. For example, Vulpix not being able to be "countered" (i would argue otherwise, tbqh, but I digress) is clearly not a huge problem because its effect isn't game-changing in the same way that Misdreavus (for the sake of argument) would be if it bypasses its checks. It's fast, can take basically any neutral hit, and has enough power to plow through a few Pokemon even if its hit by priority or outsped where as setting up Sunny Day is "good" but comparing it to Misdreavus is an absurdity. To put it simply, if you can't stop sun from being set up, it's not a huge deal but if you can't stop Misdreavus (or any Pokemon, really), you lose.
Not that I'm actually for banning Misdreavus necessarily because it is manageable to an extent, I just think one-sided posts paint a very poor picture of what actually should be considered, especially when it's a non-analogous analogy.
Not that I'm actually for banning Misdreavus necessarily because it is manageable to an extent, I just think one-sided posts paint a very poor picture of what actually should be considered, especially when it's a non-analogous analogy.
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I'm going to post a one sided post in response to a ones sided argument that began with the blunt statement that "Misdreavus is broken". I also never compared Misdreavus to Vulpix in any way shape, or form. Far too often I see the "no counter" argument, which in itself should never be used (and yeah literally Vulpix's only counter is Resttalk Munchlax which imo isn't even viable). The actual analogy was clearly not 100% serious anyway which I thought was pretty apparent. His argument was only backed by the reasoning that "Misdreavus can beat all of its checks" which is pretty fucking obvious seeing as that's what a check is supposed to be. I only brought up the Vulpix and the "no counters analogy" for the potential counter argument that Misdreavus doesn't have counters (which admittedly it doesn't have any solid, viable ones).
My "analogy" with Vulpix had almost nothing to do with the actual discussion of Misdreavus, and was not even close to the main focus of my post. My post was one sided because it is a response to an argument that literally has no merit to it. This entire discussion has been sparked from invalid reasoning which just bothers me and made me make a rant post.
On the hand of the actual topic, Misdreavus is strong and it's going to take multiple pokes or an outplay to take down. That's just what happens when you put a 435 BST mon with a strong stab in a tier where most sit around 300-350. It's going to be inherently stronger and harder to take down. However, I personally feel as if it's different than Meditite and Murkrow in which it was just frustrating to deal with and play against. There is a lot more margin of error available for a player to make against Misdreavus and still be able to salvage the game than Krow and Tite and I think that is what separates the three from being broken or not. I know I'm being pretty vague but I'm pretty lazy and can't think of a better way to put it.
My "analogy" with Vulpix had almost nothing to do with the actual discussion of Misdreavus, and was not even close to the main focus of my post. My post was one sided because it is a response to an argument that literally has no merit to it. This entire discussion has been sparked from invalid reasoning which just bothers me and made me make a rant post.
On the hand of the actual topic, Misdreavus is strong and it's going to take multiple pokes or an outplay to take down. That's just what happens when you put a 435 BST mon with a strong stab in a tier where most sit around 300-350. It's going to be inherently stronger and harder to take down. However, I personally feel as if it's different than Meditite and Murkrow in which it was just frustrating to deal with and play against. There is a lot more margin of error available for a player to make against Misdreavus and still be able to salvage the game than Krow and Tite and I think that is what separates the three from being broken or not. I know I'm being pretty vague but I'm pretty lazy and can't think of a better way to put it.
Yea I'm aware the post you responded to was not much better, but it also seemed like you were genuinely trying to make a point (as I would infer from someone using analogies and illustrations) that actually addressed the arguments (one-sided as they were) in the previous post. So that's why I responded to yours, because, well, two illogical one-sided posts don't make a logical post (I didn't want to use the "two wrongs don't make a right" quote cuz its cheesy af but I guess it illustrates what I'm saying more effectively).
Further, something "having no reliable counters" is a legitimate point for a Pokemon but it also depends on other factors. As the point you made with Vulpix, not many Pokemon can "stop" it from supporting, but its support isn't really game-breaking. Additionally, a Pokemon like Zigzagoon has less counters once it's set up than Misdreavus, but it's a one-shot set up sweeper that has some trouble setting up. I'm sure it's easy to see that Misdreavus, being unlike Vulpix in that its able to break through counters and actually take a few Pokemon out (I know that's debatable, but for the sake of argument....) and unlike Zigzagoon as it has an absurd amount of uses it can perform in all stages of the game, is actually more influenced by also bypassing its counters.
Murkrow was banned because its skill-less bypassing of counters was so immense that despite its frailty, it was deemed broken. Meditite, despite requiring prediction, the combination of its healing/bulk and offensive capabilities deemed it broken. Misdreavus, hypothetically, would be banned because while it needs to be used well, it has the ability to check a bunch of Pokemon, spread burn status, trick, destiny bond etc. (this is the part of Misdreavus we should mostly be focusing on).
Again, not saying it's "enough" to be broken. However, I think there's more to it than saying whether it has counters or not and if that's important. We need to actually evaluate the relevance of the argument as a point part of a bigger picture rather than a one-shot broken or not argument.
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I have a question, and I know I'm kinda coming out of nowhere with it. With each generation, Pokemon becomes a more and more diverse looking game in every metagame due to the addition of new Pokemon. At what point do we just have so many Pokemon that it is impossible to build a team that, if played well enough, can always beat the opponent? From what I see in this thread, that's the assumption that people are making to call something broken-- "I built a perfect team and I still can't beat all of ________'s sets" or "_____ has so many good sets that it means I can't teambuild well if I want to beat it"... to what extent does this minimize the importance of solid teambuilding? Should our goal really be to ban things until teambuilding is always less important than good playing, provided you are using "good" sets that synergize together (in type or purpose)?
There's a difference between often losing to a well-played version of specific Pokemon or team and having a single Pokemon that all teams have "too much" trouble with any time especially when specifically prepared for.
So until that is not the case, banning should definitely at least be on the table, but you do raise a good point for the future of LC banning philosophy.
So until that is not the case, banning should definitely at least be on the table, but you do raise a good point for the future of LC banning philosophy.
I'll start out by saying how much I agree with everything here. Some of the justifications people are employing are terrifyingly childish.
On the previous page, someone argued that Pawniard isn't an offensive check to Misdreavus. Their reasons? "Pawniard is mindgames with some run scarf or eviolite, so its pretty undermined." It seems so illogical to base an argument off of the fact that you are going to have to try and out think your opponent. What kind of reasoning is that? Isn't this entire game based around mindgames? There are tons of Pokemon that must be outplayed in order to be defeated. No, more than that. Every single match-up must be out thought and out played, otherwise this would be the stupidest game that ever existed. If you think this Pokemon shuts down creativity, go try OU. See how creative they are.
As for Heysup's argument, I do actually see the logic there. The same justifications that banned past-Pokemon are seeming to apply to this Pokemon. However, I think that they apply much looser in this circumstance. Gligar absolutely required that you run and Ice-type move or Pokemon, otherwise you were brutally defeated. Swirlix attracted Steel-types so commonly because of how common it was; Bullet Punch Meditite existed primarily for that. Misdreavus doesn't have that same effect, really. Pokemon are going to run Knock Off or moves or Pokemon that seem to be Ghost checks, regardless of this Pokemon being in the metagame.
I don't know, though. I'm just a scrub.
NP Misdreavus is very easy to set up with and subsequently sweep. It's got the coverage and support options to beat virtually every check and counter possible while still having a massive presence. Checks you mention that one can add without even purposing it for being Misdreavus aren't really used for any other purpose. People run stuff like Pory, Houndour and Pawn for misdreavus specifically, And don't try ooling yourself to think otherwise.
Cottonee is not a good Misdreavus check. It tends to take a lot of damage from unboosted shadow balls and can't immediately pressure offensively.
Also: I am finding that Misdreavus is far too easy to gain offensive pressure with. Bringing the checks of choicealmost always leads to a free set up turn or push for pressure through pokemon like Timburr or Mienfoo. The play of Misdreavus > fighting is already common, And really is just the easiest way to punish your opponent simply because you have Missy on your team. At least with other teammate pairings Like Flrtchdig, you've got an unreliable strateguy beaten by simple predictions with little to no cost.
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I'll give you Houndour, but Porygon and Pawn are excellent Pokemon outside of checking/countering Missy. Both are very good counters to Fletchling, which imo is more metagame-defining than Misdreavus. Porygon takes hits like a champ, while providing excellent team support through Thunder Wave. Pawn is the best offensive support mon out there, since very few things enjoy taking a STAB 18 Attack Knock Off, much less a +2 STAB 18 Attack Knock Off should they try to defog hazards away.
What?
Cottonee shits all over NP Missy. It comes in as it boosts and encores it forcing it to switch. Or, it can just paralyze it and cripple it for the rest of the match. Cott is the single best measure to stop boosting sweepers in the tier, including Missy.
"NP Misdreavus is very easy to set up with and subsequently sweep."
Can you give some examples? Because this is not consistent with my experience at all. The only pokemon I've used recently that I find Misdreavus has an easy time setting up on is Trubbish. And since Trubbish forms a great core with Porygon (Misdreavus or not), I don't consider this much of an issue.
The only concrete argument you seem to have made is that it sets up on Fighting-types. This is not necessarily true. Dazzling Gleam is non-STAB and only 80 BP, so it doesn't do as much damage as you seem to think.
236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I could do fairly similar calcs for Timburr or Croagunk (except Dazzling Gleam doesn't even hit Croagunk super effectively). If you try to set up on a Fighting-type that still has its Eviolite, there's a good chance you're about to lose half your health and your Eviolite, making you easy pickings for any Scarf user or priority. If I'm using Mienfoo in this situation, I'll almost always leave Mienfoo in to use Knock Off.
Maybe you've had a different experience, but you need to give some examples of what NP Missy can set up on or nobody's going to listen to you.
Can you give some examples? Because this is not consistent with my experience at all. The only pokemon I've used recently that I find Misdreavus has an easy time setting up on is Trubbish. And since Trubbish forms a great core with Porygon (Misdreavus or not), I don't consider this much of an issue.
The only concrete argument you seem to have made is that it sets up on Fighting-types. This is not necessarily true. Dazzling Gleam is non-STAB and only 80 BP, so it doesn't do as much damage as you seem to think.
236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I could do fairly similar calcs for Timburr or Croagunk (except Dazzling Gleam doesn't even hit Croagunk super effectively). If you try to set up on a Fighting-type that still has its Eviolite, there's a good chance you're about to lose half your health and your Eviolite, making you easy pickings for any Scarf user or priority. If I'm using Mienfoo in this situation, I'll almost always leave Mienfoo in to use Knock Off.
Maybe you've had a different experience, but you need to give some examples of what NP Missy can set up on or nobody's going to listen to you.
God fucking damnit this site is not mobiler friendly.
You cannot expect me to believe that you would risk Mienfoo with Stealth Rock on the field. Or that you should even try. Misdreavus 2hkos Cottonee unless you run the icky 116/196 spread which while having merit for being able to beat Missy, doesn't optimize Cottonee's full potential to check more stuff (foo and Pawniard) more effectively.
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Whar are you talking about? It CAN knock off on it. It doesn't even fear dazzling gleam (regenerator).
Cottonee should never check pawniard, stop.
Cotton can and definitely should check Pawniard. You know, considering it's the most popular mon at the present moment and is put into a position where it has trouble dealing with the very pokemon it is supposed to beat. You know, That's why people use lure Fletch and shit, except cotton has an opportunity to come in.
Regenerator isn't relevant at all when talking about OHKOs.
236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)
236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
(10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14)
lol I still don't get what you mean
236+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 4-6 (17.3 - 26%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
(4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
I still don't get how it's a pawniard check when it gets 2HKOed or gets its item knocked off by the most spammable attacks pawniard has....
Actual Garbage's Buneary Review
Buneary should be reconsidered as a support.
It hits 19 speed and learns cosmic power and baton pass, that is a powerful niche.
But Buneary is truly dangerous because it learns Encore.
If your opponent figures out that Buneary is going to encore after they use support moves you can use the switches for free cosmic powers, forcing them to guess weather you will encore or CP.
However, Buneary does have its weaknesses, Clear smog, sleep, and taunt completely shut it down. As do straight up super effective attacks, especially the high-jump kicks. It can survive a drain punch from Eviolite Mienfoo or Scraggy, but HJK or Life-Orb/Scarf will obviously OHKO. But with berry juice, if you don't OHKO or knock off, it will survive at least 2 or 3 hits due to cosmic power.
Overall, I consider Buneary one of the stronger supports in the tier, and it should be at least C-Tier because it can provide a very unique strength to a team and force a lot of switches. It has a snowbally mechanic in that it is very hard to deal with if you do not approach it correctly and quickly enough.
Buneary should be reconsidered as a support.
It hits 19 speed and learns cosmic power and baton pass, that is a powerful niche.
But Buneary is truly dangerous because it learns Encore.
- Stacking both defenses easily is pretty strong and getting them up before the enemy figures out how to respond can be devastating.
- Buneary isn't very bulky on its own, but has decent HP and builds defenses fast enough to let it tank rather well w/ cosmic power.
- The defenses let it build more defenses, and combined with a berry juice, you can reach 2-3 stages rather easily, even in a less ideal scenario.
- Trapping someone into a support move, or a ghost move gives you a free turn or 3 to build defenses (or speed to trap smashers aside from Tirtouga and Shellder because of priority).
- Catching a Mienfoo in fake-out is devastating, or a status-er on a thunderwave or stun spore (Which Buneary is immune to because of Limber).
- It even works on will-o-wisp, because the burn doesn't really affect buneary as it does not need to attack, and the damage is negligible because you will get at least 1 cosmic power after encoring will-o-wisp.
If your opponent figures out that Buneary is going to encore after they use support moves you can use the switches for free cosmic powers, forcing them to guess weather you will encore or CP.
However, Buneary does have its weaknesses, Clear smog, sleep, and taunt completely shut it down. As do straight up super effective attacks, especially the high-jump kicks. It can survive a drain punch from Eviolite Mienfoo or Scraggy, but HJK or Life-Orb/Scarf will obviously OHKO. But with berry juice, if you don't OHKO or knock off, it will survive at least 2 or 3 hits due to cosmic power.
Overall, I consider Buneary one of the stronger supports in the tier, and it should be at least C-Tier because it can provide a very unique strength to a team and force a lot of switches. It has a snowbally mechanic in that it is very hard to deal with if you do not approach it correctly and quickly enough.
This is all my fault :[
- Status