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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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I thought mean look can't be baton passed anymore
GLASS'S PROPOSAL
ok since we obviously have nothing better to talk about and are honestly at a loss for words, I'm going to propose to y'all the things I think need to leave the tier, and my stances on why they should.
first i'm gonna post my stance on knock off, then on mienfoo, then on misdreavus.
Knock off
- Knock off is literally the worst thing in LC right now. This move alone single-handedly drops the viability of most ghost and psychic types just by existing. Why, you ask? "It's a base 20 Dark ty-WRONG. In Gen 6, as most of you know, game freak boosted knock off up to a modest 65 base power with the added effect of it's power getting boosted by 1.5 if your opponent is holding an item. This alone gives knock off 2 things. A no-risk, high reward attack, and insane support characteristic which I will speak on later. The other problem with knock off is it's distribution. 50 pokemon in the little cup metagame get this move, so it's not too farfectch'd (hue) of an idea that your team would have a mon that could properly abuse it.
Things that I feel make knock off broken:
Insane Support Characteristic: Knock Off is incredibly useful this generation, being able to do a sizable chunk while also removing crucial items from both offensive and defensive mons alike that don't have sticky hold. Being able to neuter most of your defensive counters or weaken your offensive switch-ins both damage-wise and power-wise is extremely helpful in general and can help facilitate a sweep with something that usually shouldn't be able to get broken through with no drawbacks is crazy.
Distribution/Accessability: Earlier today on the ladder I ran into a growth Knock off Bulbasaur. Just let that sink in for a bit. But seriously, way too much gets this move and one of the bigger problems I see in it is not just the fact that offensive mons can give tremendous support with it, but that it is viable coverage. As dark does not resist steel anymore, there is even more of a reason to just be able to spam knock off. Take a look at some of the tier's premier physically offensive threats. Aipom, Timburr, Mienfoo, Archen, Scraggy: All of them get knock off, and half of them can use it to get past would-be hard checks/counters, or help other mons get past their would-be checks/and counters if they share similar ones.
Why i could see knock off not being banned:
A reason I could see knock off staying in LC is because there are mons who can easily switch-in to knock off easily, such as mons with sticky hold, mons that resist it like spritzee, pawniard, and more, and Itemless mons liek fletch. But the biggest reason I see preventing knock off from being banned from LC is the potential of Defense in LC becoming too much to handle as there would be no way to remove the source of their bulk, making a very stall/semi-stall-oriented metagame that could grow stale quickly
How LC could profit from banning knock off:
Here's why I like the prospect of a knock off ban. I see people commonly complaining about how psychic and ghost types aren't as good as they used to be, Mienfoo and pawniard being omnipresent, and other various things surrounding the move. A knock off ban would, in theory, drastically increase the amount of things that are viable in this tier. Slowpoke can rise to it's former glory as one of the better walls in the tier, Natu can return as one of the premier hazard blockers, (Misdreavus would become that much more of a problem hue) Gastly could rise to become an even more fearsome special attacker than it already is, and much, much more! Defense would obviously rise in popularity, but trick users would have no way of being stopped bar by sticky hold users, which could be fun to play around
IN CONCLUSION AKA TL;DR
I feel as though knock off deserves a ban in Lc, not only for the little risk and high reward of it all, but the fact that it will open many new doors for new mons to walk through and into.
I want plenty of feedback from this as well so don't hesitate to reply :]
ADDENDUM
My next posts after discussion has sparked will be about mienfoo and misdreavus and their potential brokenness in the metagame so look out for those :]
ok since we obviously have nothing better to talk about and are honestly at a loss for words, I'm going to propose to y'all the things I think need to leave the tier, and my stances on why they should.
first i'm gonna post my stance on knock off, then on mienfoo, then on misdreavus.
Knock off
- Knock off is literally the worst thing in LC right now. This move alone single-handedly drops the viability of most ghost and psychic types just by existing. Why, you ask? "It's a base 20 Dark ty-WRONG. In Gen 6, as most of you know, game freak boosted knock off up to a modest 65 base power with the added effect of it's power getting boosted by 1.5 if your opponent is holding an item. This alone gives knock off 2 things. A no-risk, high reward attack, and insane support characteristic which I will speak on later. The other problem with knock off is it's distribution. 50 pokemon in the little cup metagame get this move, so it's not too farfectch'd (hue) of an idea that your team would have a mon that could properly abuse it.
Things that I feel make knock off broken:
- No-Risk high Reward, especially in LC
- Insane Support Characteristic
- distribution/accessability
Insane Support Characteristic: Knock Off is incredibly useful this generation, being able to do a sizable chunk while also removing crucial items from both offensive and defensive mons alike that don't have sticky hold. Being able to neuter most of your defensive counters or weaken your offensive switch-ins both damage-wise and power-wise is extremely helpful in general and can help facilitate a sweep with something that usually shouldn't be able to get broken through with no drawbacks is crazy.
Distribution/Accessability: Earlier today on the ladder I ran into a growth Knock off Bulbasaur. Just let that sink in for a bit. But seriously, way too much gets this move and one of the bigger problems I see in it is not just the fact that offensive mons can give tremendous support with it, but that it is viable coverage. As dark does not resist steel anymore, there is even more of a reason to just be able to spam knock off. Take a look at some of the tier's premier physically offensive threats. Aipom, Timburr, Mienfoo, Archen, Scraggy: All of them get knock off, and half of them can use it to get past would-be hard checks/counters, or help other mons get past their would-be checks/and counters if they share similar ones.
Why i could see knock off not being banned:
A reason I could see knock off staying in LC is because there are mons who can easily switch-in to knock off easily, such as mons with sticky hold, mons that resist it like spritzee, pawniard, and more, and Itemless mons liek fletch. But the biggest reason I see preventing knock off from being banned from LC is the potential of Defense in LC becoming too much to handle as there would be no way to remove the source of their bulk, making a very stall/semi-stall-oriented metagame that could grow stale quickly
How LC could profit from banning knock off:
Here's why I like the prospect of a knock off ban. I see people commonly complaining about how psychic and ghost types aren't as good as they used to be, Mienfoo and pawniard being omnipresent, and other various things surrounding the move. A knock off ban would, in theory, drastically increase the amount of things that are viable in this tier. Slowpoke can rise to it's former glory as one of the better walls in the tier, Natu can return as one of the premier hazard blockers, (Misdreavus would become that much more of a problem hue) Gastly could rise to become an even more fearsome special attacker than it already is, and much, much more! Defense would obviously rise in popularity, but trick users would have no way of being stopped bar by sticky hold users, which could be fun to play around
IN CONCLUSION AKA TL;DR
I feel as though knock off deserves a ban in Lc, not only for the little risk and high reward of it all, but the fact that it will open many new doors for new mons to walk through and into.
I want plenty of feedback from this as well so don't hesitate to reply :]
ADDENDUM
My next posts after discussion has sparked will be about mienfoo and misdreavus and their potential brokenness in the metagame so look out for those :]
My thesis on why knockoff should be banned: by gangsterish
Knockoff is a move that is to much like a parent it hits hard and is a emotionally scarred you for life. Knockoff with STAB is goddamn insane, I mean 65 base power with stab dark typing is reasonable enough; but wait I forgot IT GETS a 1.5 multiplier when someone holds an item. Thats 97.5 power even without stab, jesus lets just add STAB for the hell of it and its 146.25 power. Fuck. And as if its not enough, knockoff beats you when your on the ground, after you are trying to get the fuck up off the ground after that you lost your item. "hey fuck your strategy"-knockoff. I mean shit I'm not an alter boy with my preacher, I don't need to get completely screwed over. Sure you can switch in a poke that resists it put still why tf should you have to do that for one move a large portion of the game? And it kills many a mons that would be viable, drowse should be good but no because knockoff screws it like its a little boy in the penn state locker room. When you have to decide about knockoffs OPness just think to yourself 'how much more strategy would be in LC without knockoff?" If the answer to your question isn't a shitload more then idk wtf you are thinking.
GG Knockoff
Knockoff is a move that is to much like a parent it hits hard and is a emotionally scarred you for life. Knockoff with STAB is goddamn insane, I mean 65 base power with stab dark typing is reasonable enough; but wait I forgot IT GETS a 1.5 multiplier when someone holds an item. Thats 97.5 power even without stab, jesus lets just add STAB for the hell of it and its 146.25 power. Fuck. And as if its not enough, knockoff beats you when your on the ground, after you are trying to get the fuck up off the ground after that you lost your item. "hey fuck your strategy"-knockoff. I mean shit I'm not an alter boy with my preacher, I don't need to get completely screwed over. Sure you can switch in a poke that resists it put still why tf should you have to do that for one move a large portion of the game? And it kills many a mons that would be viable, drowse should be good but no because knockoff screws it like its a little boy in the penn state locker room. When you have to decide about knockoffs OPness just think to yourself 'how much more strategy would be in LC without knockoff?" If the answer to your question isn't a shitload more then idk wtf you are thinking.
GG Knockoff
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I agree that knock off is the single most useful/powerful move in LC and that you can simply throw it on all team members that can use it and be successful, and that by itself it completelly denies the viability of some types, but i also fear that with the lack of knock off, some walls and item dependent builds might become overpowered, since it would be incredibly difficult to wear them down/check them without knock off, lets say porygon for example can usually run Psychic, effectivelly denying counters for it. I actually might disagree with the notion that knock off actually limits viability too much, exactly because i fear that with wall's spamming all over the tier, the viable mons would be even less that there are now, the metagame could very well be defined only by walls and wall breakers by then.
So yeah, this is a "double-edged" sword in which besides the move being too powerful at the moment, the metagame might actually be beneficting out of it.
But well , on the good part (for me) knock off gone would probably mean some banned mons like gligar could make a comeback, since knock off is the single major difference to him in this gen, and actually the source of major arguments for its banning - that he could nullify counters/walls with knock off.
But i mean, without knock off on most pokes, what exactly prevents shell smashers or belly drumers from switching in at any appropriate time? Without knock off, how exactly would you get rid of regen cores and bulky trapping mons like foongus or ferroseed.
So yeah, this is a "double-edged" sword in which besides the move being too powerful at the moment, the metagame might actually be beneficting out of it.
But well , on the good part (for me) knock off gone would probably mean some banned mons like gligar could make a comeback, since knock off is the single major difference to him in this gen, and actually the source of major arguments for its banning - that he could nullify counters/walls with knock off.
But i mean, without knock off on most pokes, what exactly prevents shell smashers or belly drumers from switching in at any appropriate time? Without knock off, how exactly would you get rid of regen cores and bulky trapping mons like foongus or ferroseed.
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We're not banning Knock Off just because you don't like it. If it were truly broken, stall wouldn't actually be an anti-meta strategy or be considered viable. All it does is make LC players act a little smarter with their plays. It doesn't really ruin viability either considering that Missy is the most used Pokemon in the tier.
I fully agree with boo836 in that I feel as if we're blowing Knock Off out of proportion.
Of course, the move really, really good; it's made its presence known in every tier in Pokemon, not just LC, and it's a ridiculously influential part of LC's metagame. However, I doubt the banning of Knock Off alone will suddenly make a truckload of Ghost- and Psychic-type Pokemon skyrocket in viability. Going over Glassglaceon's individual examples -
@Rowan: Levi, drilbur has mold breaker
@Rowan: so it doesn't care about natu anyway
also that
I don't think banning Knock Off will suddenly completely shift every single Pokemon's viability, although stuff like Pawniard/Vullaby/Doduo will obviously be affected negatively to an extent.
I think the biggest reason against banning Knock Off is that it's not actually all that broken; you don't need a Trubbish on every team if you can simply deal with Pawniard and Mienfoo. The difference Knock Off makes such a large impact in LC is that our items are stronger; we see Eviolite and Berry Juice users massively hurt by Knock Off because in other tiers, they don't have an item that boosts every single Pokemon's defenses by 1.5x, or that instantly heals a Pokemon to full or nearly full HP when they go under half. Knock Off itself isn't actually that much stronger (I think it'd technically be weaker because against Eviolite users, the first hit is essentially weakened to 0.67x); getting rid of something's Eviolite simply means it has to rely on its base defenses to take hits.
I know that when I first started LC, 45/50/50 defenses didn't exactly scream "defensive pivot", but Eviolite allows Mienfoo to perform as such regardless (although Mienfoo can still function very well without its Eviolite). On the other hand, if Eviolite Munchlax is hit by Knock Off, 135/40/85 defenses are still tough to break. In other words, Knock Off is almost a balancing force in the metagame by keeping incredibly potent items in check, and from my playing experience, I've never been under the impression that it is in itself broken.
With all that being said, I can fully understand why some people might not like the presence of Knock Off, and I'm finding this is a lot more interesting as a topic of discussion than Diglett @_@
Of course, the move really, really good; it's made its presence known in every tier in Pokemon, not just LC, and it's a ridiculously influential part of LC's metagame. However, I doubt the banning of Knock Off alone will suddenly make a truckload of Ghost- and Psychic-type Pokemon skyrocket in viability. Going over Glassglaceon's individual examples -
It's not bad as it is, and having used it a lot recently, Knock Off is certainly an issue, but it's rather Slowpoke's crappy match-up against common Pokemon that I feel hold it back; Misdreavus crushes it, Pawniard forces it out regardless of whether it runs Knock Off or Night Slash, and most importantly, it's weak to both Volt Switch AND U-Turn and thus has a tough time dealing with any moderately powerful users of either of the moves, completely messing with the momentum for its team. In addition, although it would certainly prefer to maintain its Eviolite, I don't think Slowpoke is actually THAT vulnerable without it, considering how it can still survive a +2 Fletchling's Acrobatics without an item.
I really don't think this would happen by any stretch, considering how the hazard setters ranked S and A right now are Pawniard, Archen, Tirtouga, Drilbur, and Dwebble. 4 of those hit Natu super-effectively with their STAB attacks, and Drilbur pretty much always runs Rock Slide.
@Rowan: Levi, drilbur has mold breaker
@Rowan: so it doesn't care about natu anyway
also that
Gastly isn't taking a huge amount of attacks as it is, anyway; Misdreavus's presence is probably far more limiting to it than Knock Off at this point.
Defensive Ghosts don't have anywhere near the niche they used to have because blocking Rapid Spin isn't such a huge deal when Defog exists, and the premier Rapid Spin user, Drillbur, 2HKOs most of them after a Swords Dance anyway. The only Pokemon I could see drastically rising from the removal of Knock Off at all are Bronzor and Elgyem, but at the same time, we severely lessen niches of Trubbish and Shellos.
I don't think banning Knock Off will suddenly completely shift every single Pokemon's viability, although stuff like Pawniard/Vullaby/Doduo will obviously be affected negatively to an extent.
I think the biggest reason against banning Knock Off is that it's not actually all that broken; you don't need a Trubbish on every team if you can simply deal with Pawniard and Mienfoo. The difference Knock Off makes such a large impact in LC is that our items are stronger; we see Eviolite and Berry Juice users massively hurt by Knock Off because in other tiers, they don't have an item that boosts every single Pokemon's defenses by 1.5x, or that instantly heals a Pokemon to full or nearly full HP when they go under half. Knock Off itself isn't actually that much stronger (I think it'd technically be weaker because against Eviolite users, the first hit is essentially weakened to 0.67x); getting rid of something's Eviolite simply means it has to rely on its base defenses to take hits.
I know that when I first started LC, 45/50/50 defenses didn't exactly scream "defensive pivot", but Eviolite allows Mienfoo to perform as such regardless (although Mienfoo can still function very well without its Eviolite). On the other hand, if Eviolite Munchlax is hit by Knock Off, 135/40/85 defenses are still tough to break. In other words, Knock Off is almost a balancing force in the metagame by keeping incredibly potent items in check, and from my playing experience, I've never been under the impression that it is in itself broken.
With all that being said, I can fully understand why some people might not like the presence of Knock Off, and I'm finding this is a lot more interesting as a topic of discussion than Diglett @_@
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I've always been against Knock Off in the last few months but after I witnessed a testban of it somewhere else my opinion of it slightly changed.
When Knock Off got its buff it transformed from a neverused gimmick move into an overused move that plays two roles, coverage and removing items, and it's pretty known that items are important in LC more than any other metagame. Knock Off didn't make any Pokémon broken but it instead gave some of them a bigger role in the metagame like Pawniard, it also made people lean towards playing with offensive teams since stall isn't as viable as it used to be (this is arguable though) but some Pokémon used on defensive teams also benefit from Knock Off (Vullaby, Mienfoo...).
But, Knock Off is the main check to Berry Juice and without it it'd be really hard to counter and without it Berry Juice sweepers with set up moves like Shell Smash Dwebble and Tirtouga will be even harder to deal with, Recycle Magnemite with Berry Juice (and Endure) may be impossible to knock out except if you run something like Mold Breaker Drilbur. Misdreavus which has a high usage even with Knock Off in the meta and it was already proven that it's overly centralizing the metagame with Dazzling Gleam that gives it an almost perfect coverage and without Knock Off it'd be even harder to deal with.
tl;dr: Knock Off is a move that is balancing the metagame, if it goes away we'll have even more trouble dealing with some threats.
When Knock Off got its buff it transformed from a neverused gimmick move into an overused move that plays two roles, coverage and removing items, and it's pretty known that items are important in LC more than any other metagame. Knock Off didn't make any Pokémon broken but it instead gave some of them a bigger role in the metagame like Pawniard, it also made people lean towards playing with offensive teams since stall isn't as viable as it used to be (this is arguable though) but some Pokémon used on defensive teams also benefit from Knock Off (Vullaby, Mienfoo...).
But, Knock Off is the main check to Berry Juice and without it it'd be really hard to counter and without it Berry Juice sweepers with set up moves like Shell Smash Dwebble and Tirtouga will be even harder to deal with, Recycle Magnemite with Berry Juice (and Endure) may be impossible to knock out except if you run something like Mold Breaker Drilbur. Misdreavus which has a high usage even with Knock Off in the meta and it was already proven that it's overly centralizing the metagame with Dazzling Gleam that gives it an almost perfect coverage and without Knock Off it'd be even harder to deal with.
tl;dr: Knock Off is a move that is balancing the metagame, if it goes away we'll have even more trouble dealing with some threats.
tbh berry juice sweepers still have their fair share of checks and counters, bulky fighters still pose just as big of a threat, cotton can still encore them into setup moves, ferroseed still completely destroys most SS Sweepers like tirtouga, Magnemite is simple to play around: hit it with a move that doesn't directly bring it down to below half and then use your move that would bring it down past half to smash it.
I do see your point though, Knock off does help keep some things in check. But Knock off being BALANCED? I completely disagree, and this is where my problem with knock off comes in. Knock off, in my honest opinion, is completely unhealthy to keep in this metagame due to the fact that it strips most (not all jeez some of y'all need to read) pokemon of their original roles and leaves them as deadweight or marginally less useful with no possible drawback to the user (bar from opposing abilites). any choiced pokemon now lacks the ability to break through what it was meant to break or outspeed what it was meant to outspeed. Defensive pokemon are now marginally easier to break through and can't really wall what they were meant to wall anymore in most cases. Losing momentum is one thing, but making most defensive mons lose their momentum, usually a marginal chunk of their health, AND their purpose is just stupid to me.
On phone, will write more later ~w~
There's definitely an argument that can be made to saying that Knock Off is over-centralising. Numerous pokes, and even playstyles to an extent, have been nerfed simply due to Knock Off's presence. If anything, the problem isn't that Knock Off is dominating, it's that it's so needed in the first place. In a meta where nearly everything has an Eviolite, Knock Off is a great way to psuedo-wallbreak. Without it we're seeing super defensive teams running around to the point of straight up killing offense.
Besides, not every Pokemon NEEDS their item to be successful. Playing smart and taking advantage of natural bulk and resistances is more than enough sometimes.
Besides, not every Pokemon NEEDS their item to be successful. Playing smart and taking advantage of natural bulk and resistances is more than enough sometimes.
To me, the problem is Pawniard, not Knock Off itself. Knock Off is a really good move, but let's not pretend that it instantly makes unviable stuff like Slowpoke. Non-STAB Knock Offs are not as powerful as they seem, and don't do enough damage outside of super effective hits to warrant spamming the move. It's not no-risk high-reward, especially if you have a Pokemon like Timburr who can just set up on the Knock Off, lose 8% of it's health, and then start tearing holes. Or perhaps something like Larvesta, who can use its resistances to take Fighting- and Steel-type hits and burn the offending Knock Off user. However, Pokemon like Pawniard, who can just come in and spam a move that decreases your defenses by 33% for the rest of the match and do a ton of damage alongside of it is what's bad for the metagame. Scraggy is guilty of this to a lesser extent, but it lacks Pawniard's Speed and Steel typing. Knock Off is very healthy for the metagame as a concept, and it's what keeps Eviolite stall and SturdyJuice abuse (especially with Endure becoming popular) from running the show.
I think we should take a look at Pawniard before deciding Knock Off's fate, because I solidly believe Pawniard is what's wrong with Knock Off.
I think we should take a look at Pawniard before deciding Knock Off's fate, because I solidly believe Pawniard is what's wrong with Knock Off.
Completely agree with this, as a stall player knock off is hardly an issue when you can have several dedicated absorbers. Pawniard has all the things to abuse knock off, it has a great typing, offensive and defense, and has a perfect moveset to abuse knock off. It forces many switches, gets psycho cut if you wanna be risky with your predicts to beat its checks. Not to mention LO fucking wrecks most of its best answers (standard gen 6 mienfoo loses to knock off then an iron head + sucker punch with about SR + layer of spikes worth of damage) and timburr/ponyta face the same fate just with counter measures (priority and burning). What you give up in defensive capabilities you gain a game breaking nuke every time it gets in.
Hey, people didn't really take sun teams seriously either until some well constructed ones were put out there, and now quite a few people are planning to nominate chloro-drought. Point being, stall being a lesser used playstyle doesn't make it non viable, just anti meta...
No it doesnt. Literally all you need to do to be successful is spam Knock Off. Missy has the bulk to live a Knock Off from anything except STAB Knock Off. every other ghost is non viable because of Knock Off, usually being OHKOed. If you look at some analyses, a lot of the "cons" of a Pokemon are that it is "weak to Knock Off." Sounds centralizing to me, as well as ruining viability. It doesnt make LC players act smarter at all. It makes them have to make a decision: which Pokemon do I care about the least, that i can sacrifice its item.
Yagura said:
thats funny fren
take rain teams seriously pls
Knock Off is no way unhealthy for the meta.
yes it's no risk, but not necessarily high reward. you can just click knock off and weaken the opposing team but it's not always actually a good idea. fighting types spamming knock off, gives free switch ins to fletchling, arguably one of the most threatening mons in the tier. plenty of pokemon don't care about their items. Berry Juice mons that have already used up their item don't care. flame body pokemon pose a massive risk to knock off users. acrobatics mienfoo beats all fighting-types and pawniard which is 90% of knock off users.
If we're using that argument, we might as well ban U-turn which is much more low risk, high reward.
as for increasing diversity, it's an assumption with no real evidence.
misdreavus (primary ghost) isn't hampered hard by knock off, we can see this with its high usage. however, with knock off gone, its defensive set becomes 10x more viable, which is unhealthy for the meta, making the no.1 mon even more usable.
other ghost types aren't hampered so much by knock off, as the presence of misdreavus outclassing them in almost every way. If misdreavus went, we'd automatically go to Pokemon such as Gastly and Drifloon as being great offensive mons, and not worry about Knock Off's effect.
Defensive Ghosts are slightly hampered, as now they can't wall Fighting-types. But a type having not very great defensive Pokemon isn't the biggest issue around, it's not as if anyone complains about Defensive Ice-types not being viable. With the addition of Fairy-types in generation 6, there is less of a need for a defensive-type that can wall fighting-types, as Fairy-types now have this niche. With the addition of Defog, defensive spinblockers are also less needed. Even if Knock Off is banned, defensive ghosts still don't have much of a niche.
As for Psychic-types, they've never been known for being great defensively. Late generation 5, when Knock Off still sucked, Slowpoke still wasn't exactly great. With Knock Off gone, they can now wall Timburr and Croagunk. Mienfoo still just U-turns out and the other Fighting-type, Scraggy, has its Dark-typing.
We've actually seen quite a few succesful stall/semistall teams being reasonably anti-meta, from users such as myself, queenlucy, corporal levi. The reason being stall teams use things that have sticky hold, or can simply function without their eviolite. Every user of Knock Off has a decent switch-in that can wall the user whether it's eviolite-less or not.
I don't necessarily think Pawniard is broken, but I'd much prefer to see a Pawniard suspect than a Knock Off suspect. Pawniard is the main offender thanks to its (almost) unresisted STAB coverage that can easily spam Knock Off with its high attack. No other Knock Off Pokemon hurts the meta in a way that Pawniard does.
yes it's no risk, but not necessarily high reward. you can just click knock off and weaken the opposing team but it's not always actually a good idea. fighting types spamming knock off, gives free switch ins to fletchling, arguably one of the most threatening mons in the tier. plenty of pokemon don't care about their items. Berry Juice mons that have already used up their item don't care. flame body pokemon pose a massive risk to knock off users. acrobatics mienfoo beats all fighting-types and pawniard which is 90% of knock off users.
If we're using that argument, we might as well ban U-turn which is much more low risk, high reward.
as for increasing diversity, it's an assumption with no real evidence.
misdreavus (primary ghost) isn't hampered hard by knock off, we can see this with its high usage. however, with knock off gone, its defensive set becomes 10x more viable, which is unhealthy for the meta, making the no.1 mon even more usable.
other ghost types aren't hampered so much by knock off, as the presence of misdreavus outclassing them in almost every way. If misdreavus went, we'd automatically go to Pokemon such as Gastly and Drifloon as being great offensive mons, and not worry about Knock Off's effect.
Defensive Ghosts are slightly hampered, as now they can't wall Fighting-types. But a type having not very great defensive Pokemon isn't the biggest issue around, it's not as if anyone complains about Defensive Ice-types not being viable. With the addition of Fairy-types in generation 6, there is less of a need for a defensive-type that can wall fighting-types, as Fairy-types now have this niche. With the addition of Defog, defensive spinblockers are also less needed. Even if Knock Off is banned, defensive ghosts still don't have much of a niche.
As for Psychic-types, they've never been known for being great defensively. Late generation 5, when Knock Off still sucked, Slowpoke still wasn't exactly great. With Knock Off gone, they can now wall Timburr and Croagunk. Mienfoo still just U-turns out and the other Fighting-type, Scraggy, has its Dark-typing.
We've actually seen quite a few succesful stall/semistall teams being reasonably anti-meta, from users such as myself, queenlucy, corporal levi. The reason being stall teams use things that have sticky hold, or can simply function without their eviolite. Every user of Knock Off has a decent switch-in that can wall the user whether it's eviolite-less or not.
I don't necessarily think Pawniard is broken, but I'd much prefer to see a Pawniard suspect than a Knock Off suspect. Pawniard is the main offender thanks to its (almost) unresisted STAB coverage that can easily spam Knock Off with its high attack. No other Knock Off Pokemon hurts the meta in a way that Pawniard does.
Except these Ghosts are already getting their asses kicked by other SE moves. Offensive ghosts like Gastly are already frail as balls and defensive ghosts are typically outclassed (as rowan's already said) by Missy.
Seriously, suggesting knock off makes ghosts unviable and then exempting missy from that statement is kinda silly. Perhaps you should consider that you're trying to use shitty pokemon, not that knock off is broken.
Love the discussion this has generated
WARNING I WILL BE USING A LOT OF: "In Regards to"
In regards to Fletchling:
Fighting types normally spam Knock Off early game. If Fletchling switches into a knock off from Timburr, it will lose. Fletchling only has a 6% chance to OHKO with acrobatics and timburr can just KO it with drain punch and regain any lost health. Not to mention if fletchling SDs predicting the switch, or it overheats predicting you to throw in pawniard, Timburr comes out of the whole ordeal relatively unharmed if it just uses drain Punch. The same situation happens with scraggy, and foo to an extent, but most all of these fighters will normally win in this situation.
In regards to Berry Juice:
Rowan I'm sure you know this already but knock off is normally spammed early game for supportive purposes, slowly trying to weaken the opponent's team. Most mons will likely still have their berry juice intact until knock off comes along and screws them up. (Bar Sticky Hold Mons of course)
In Regards to Flame Body:
Flame Body is generally a problem for just any physical contact attack in general, but in the context of knock off, ponyta and larvesta look a lot bigger than they actually are. By that I mean their defenses before and after the eviolite is knocked off is a gigantic difference, and for a chance to weaken opposing checks and counters for a sweep, the POTENTIAL CHANCE to burn is normally worth it.
Comparison to U-turn:
I talked to you about this on PS! but for the people who don't know, the major difference between U-turn and Knock off is the difference in availability and the difference of support in which knock off I feel triumphs because softening up your opponent's team in a metagame that is horribly reliant on items is a godsent and the fact that knock off can also be used to help muscle through potential checks/counters (e.g: Knock off Abra) is absurd in my opinion. When the things that are supposed to counter you are getting dealt a pretty sizable chunk of damage and losing what lets them counter you, can we really even afford to say there are safe counters to strong offensive threats such as LO Abra, LO Cranidos, etc.
The rest of the points you made were relatively solid and I can actually agree with a few of them even though my opinion still remains unchanged.
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Yes, let's please ban one of the only things that keeps a different broken thing sturdy juice from being even more broken than it already is...
Knock Off has a huge influence to be sure, but I would want to remove sturdy juice first and then see how the meta adapts.
Knock Off has a huge influence to be sure, but I would want to remove sturdy juice first and then see how the meta adapts.
I don't actually think SturdyJuice is anywhere close to broken. There are many other reliable ways to deal with SturdyJuice than Knock Off, such as hazards.
I'll hopefully make a post with my opinions on Knock Off later, just a bit hard now since I just broke my arm ;-; rip
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SturdyJuice is good, but is by no means broken. Hazards break Sturdy, and most Sturdymons carry offensive movesets to help guarantee higher damage being done to them.
Are you honestly trying to suggest that Gastly is a shitty Pokemon? Or that Phantump is a shitty Pokemon? Considering Phantump is the best spin blocker available, being a hard stop to Drilbur unlike Misdreavus who takes 50% from rocks and a Mold Breaker EQ, or Gastly who hits harder than Misdreavus does with much better STABs and typing. There are no other SE moves to get their asses kicked, outside Phantump and Acro. Knock Off is literally the only Dark-type attack worth running, outside the rare Pursuit, or the even rarer Dark Pulse / Sucker Punch Houndour.
Taken straight from the Misdreavus analysis: However, with XY came the rise of Knock Off. Misdreavus is OHKOed by Knock Off on less bulky sets and does not appreciate losing its Eviolite on the bulkier sets.
Missy is not exempt, and I have no idea where you got that impression. The only difference is, instead of being OHKOed, it is only 2hkoed.
The only reason you think those Pokemon are "shitty" is because of the current meta they are in. The Knock Off meta. Knock Off is extremely unhealthy for the metagame. There is literally no downside to running it. Oh, you need a 4th move on Abra and don't want either Substitute or Protect? Why not Knock Off? I'd also like to point out that Knock Off has even forced its way into random analysis sets, or tried to, as in the case of the Cottonee analysis, or the Drifloon analysis. You can argue whether the move is broken all day long, its a true, debateable point. But unhealthy? Centralizing? There is really no counter argument to it being centralizing. Random Pokemon getting suggested Knock Off on a main set simply because it is such great utility. Acro Mienfoo being a thing, simply because it beats normal Mienfoo.
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