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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
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i dont care what he means, he is just trying to get a like. Obviously, i meant tentacool.
No, A check is something that can't come in but can kill. A counter is a something that can come in but cant really kill. For example a mienfoo check is Abra as Abra cant switch in but can kill. Spritzee is a counter to missy, spritzee can come in on any of its moves and moonblast.
There is always a standard set. For literally every Pokemon, something is standard on it, i.e. when you think of that mon you think of that set. When someone thinks of Pawniard, for example, the first thing that pops into mind is Scarf. When someone thinks of Scraggy, the first thing that pops into mind is DDance. It has nothing to do with QC. I was merely commenting on Lucy's last line
I got reqs and learned the tier at the same time, I have to say that it s not fun as I thought and it is mainly due to a couple of reasons:
- First reason is named Misdreavus, who thanks his great versatility has basically no counters in the tier (Porygon that could be a good one is easily drilled by NP+Hpfight version) and can only be revenged by a Stab Knock off of some Choice Scarf dark type like Pawniard and Scraggy or by Shadow Ball Abra/Misdreavus (under 70% of life) obviously after winning the speed tie. Also Sucker Punch Pawniard is not a good way to kill it since Misdreavus many times run WoW/Substitute in order to escape from that priority, forcing in a 50/50 mindgame one of the few counters. Personally I almost felt compelled to play Choice Scarf Pawniard throughout the course of the ladder, and in any case the version with sub gave me quite a few problems, i had to do pratically every time this routine: Lanturn-->Volt switch on sub --> Pawniard--> 50/50 pursuit on the switch or knock off on stay in. I honestly do not think it's something that deserves to remain in this tier for a long time.
- Second one is a combo named CloroDrought. I think it deserves at least a suspect. Bellsprout under sunny is a God (I have not seen anyone with Bulbasaur), almost Uber speed in combo with life orb 70 base Satk and a 120 Bp Stabbed move like Solar Beam is something very difficult to control, especially in late game where only thing that can hurt it is priority spam, not counting that many times it runs Sleep Powder to stop an eventual check or to prevent the kill of Pawniard Sucker Punch. Is also dumb n easy team building around it, Vulpix/Archen/Pawniard/Bellsprout+2 fillers, in short, everything but skill.
- Sturdy+berry juice is also a ridicolous thing, it easily changes 2hko in 3hko allowing free setup to Hazard setter like Dwebble (counter is fine too) or sweepers like Shellsmash Tirtouga but i dont think is worthy of suspect since where you turn you can find a knock off user in this tier.
Not picking it for mistakes. You're simply incorrect.
https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters
Read this. Completely. Then resume arguing about whatever you want to.
If you're trying to say that a Pokemon that can incapacitate, cripple, status, kill, or make the Pokemon a non-issue / no longer threatening is not a check then I don't know what game you are playing. All of the Pokemon I listed can and do check Misdreavus in their own way. There are many more. Checking something is easy. Misdreavus has multiple checks, as does Fletchling, and Pawniard, and literally every Pokemon in the tier. The more valuable question is whether the Pokemon in question can break through its checks, or can wear them down over time, or lure them out, or something. The discussion about checks and counters for the last multiple posts, and about the validity of what I said, has just been completely factually incorrect.
My top Pokemon suspects would probably be Misdreavus and Pawniard.
Missy is versatile as fuck and really fast and bulky. It does have checks and counters, but Missy has ways around most of them. Things that are near 100% counters, like the normal types, can be worn down via Knock Off and Spikes. Even something like scarf Pawniard, which is mostly ran to trap Missy, can be hit by hp-fighting or burned on the switch, or if Missy subs on the switch. Obviously Missy cannot run Shadow Ball/HP Fighting/Thunderbolt/Sub/WoW/Nasty Plot all on one set, but due to the nature of Missy, it can lead to a lot of bad matchups where you have the counter to a certain set but not the one you are facing. I think the fact that Missy and Pawniard pair well together really makes both of them broken; Missy can cripple many of Pawniard's checks with WoW or Dazzling Gleam, while Pawniard provides Knock Off support and can switch into things like Porygon, Vullaby, Fletchling, etc.
Pawniard is crazy good at doing what it does, despite being checked well by a lot of mons (particularly fighters). It can switch into quite a lot of Pokemon and proceed to spam Knock Off, weakening the opposing team's mons and making them easier to handle. Eviolite Pawniard can try to sweep with Swords Dance once its counters are removed, while Scarf Pawniard can outspeed most of the tier, and Pursuit trap Missy (and Abra and Gastly, but they aren't as big of threats). Most of Pawniards checks, such as Timburr, Croagunk, and Scraggy, only have Drain Punch for recovery, so can be worn down easily, particularly once they lose their Eviolite. Additionally, Pawniard can run Psycho Cut to hit all fighters bar Scraggy, plus Trubbish, who is a common switchin due to Sticky Hold, super effectively, although it has to hit most of them on the switch.
However, I'd rather nominate the move Knock Off before nominating either of these mons. Knock Off is an insane move in a tier where items are so key. We all know how good Eviolite and Berry Juice are, and gen 4 LC has shown how fast paced the meta is without these items. Knock Off has a very high distribution, with Pokemon such as Pawniard, Timburr, Mienfoo, Croagunk, Scraggy, Vullaby, Archen, Tirtouga, all learning it. Knock Off makes the Pokemon who gets hit by it much easier to take down, especially as many Pokemon in the tier do not have reliable recovery. The fact that it is viable on multiple different Pokemon makes it so you can get Knock Off to hit several different Pokemon on the opposing team. For example, defensive Tirtouga can use Knock Off to hit Chinchou, a Pokemon who won't usually switch into a majority of other Knock Off mons.
I'm also leaning towards nominating Fletchling, but I'm not 100%. On the one hand, it is an amazing revenge killer with the ability to hurt some of its checks pretty well. For example, a lot of people are calling RestTalk Chinchou a reliable counter, but Normal Gem Return really hurts it. Fletchling can utilize U-turn to keep momentum as well, making it hard for the opponent as their Fletchling counter has to take the U-turn (plus hazards) and then be faced with an unfavorable matchup. Fletchling also goes well with VoltTurn teams, as pretty much all of Fletchling's common checks are threatened by Pokemon like Chinchou and Mienfoo. In fact, besides other Chinchou, offensive Archen is pretty much the only one that isn't handled by the two of them, although Mienfoo can use Knock Off to knock Archen into defeatist range for the rest of the game. The one thing that keeps me from being 100% on nominating it is that its bulk isn't that great and it doesn't have many resistances, meaning without VoltTurn support, it sometimes can have trouble switching in. I also feel like some of its checks, such as Chinchou, Pawniard, Archen, Magnemite, Tirtouga, and Ferroseed, are all pretty common, leading to Fletchling often having to get through multiple checks before being able to sweep.
Missy is versatile as fuck and really fast and bulky. It does have checks and counters, but Missy has ways around most of them. Things that are near 100% counters, like the normal types, can be worn down via Knock Off and Spikes. Even something like scarf Pawniard, which is mostly ran to trap Missy, can be hit by hp-fighting or burned on the switch, or if Missy subs on the switch. Obviously Missy cannot run Shadow Ball/HP Fighting/Thunderbolt/Sub/WoW/Nasty Plot all on one set, but due to the nature of Missy, it can lead to a lot of bad matchups where you have the counter to a certain set but not the one you are facing. I think the fact that Missy and Pawniard pair well together really makes both of them broken; Missy can cripple many of Pawniard's checks with WoW or Dazzling Gleam, while Pawniard provides Knock Off support and can switch into things like Porygon, Vullaby, Fletchling, etc.
Pawniard is crazy good at doing what it does, despite being checked well by a lot of mons (particularly fighters). It can switch into quite a lot of Pokemon and proceed to spam Knock Off, weakening the opposing team's mons and making them easier to handle. Eviolite Pawniard can try to sweep with Swords Dance once its counters are removed, while Scarf Pawniard can outspeed most of the tier, and Pursuit trap Missy (and Abra and Gastly, but they aren't as big of threats). Most of Pawniards checks, such as Timburr, Croagunk, and Scraggy, only have Drain Punch for recovery, so can be worn down easily, particularly once they lose their Eviolite. Additionally, Pawniard can run Psycho Cut to hit all fighters bar Scraggy, plus Trubbish, who is a common switchin due to Sticky Hold, super effectively, although it has to hit most of them on the switch.
However, I'd rather nominate the move Knock Off before nominating either of these mons. Knock Off is an insane move in a tier where items are so key. We all know how good Eviolite and Berry Juice are, and gen 4 LC has shown how fast paced the meta is without these items. Knock Off has a very high distribution, with Pokemon such as Pawniard, Timburr, Mienfoo, Croagunk, Scraggy, Vullaby, Archen, Tirtouga, all learning it. Knock Off makes the Pokemon who gets hit by it much easier to take down, especially as many Pokemon in the tier do not have reliable recovery. The fact that it is viable on multiple different Pokemon makes it so you can get Knock Off to hit several different Pokemon on the opposing team. For example, defensive Tirtouga can use Knock Off to hit Chinchou, a Pokemon who won't usually switch into a majority of other Knock Off mons.
I'm also leaning towards nominating Fletchling, but I'm not 100%. On the one hand, it is an amazing revenge killer with the ability to hurt some of its checks pretty well. For example, a lot of people are calling RestTalk Chinchou a reliable counter, but Normal Gem Return really hurts it. Fletchling can utilize U-turn to keep momentum as well, making it hard for the opponent as their Fletchling counter has to take the U-turn (plus hazards) and then be faced with an unfavorable matchup. Fletchling also goes well with VoltTurn teams, as pretty much all of Fletchling's common checks are threatened by Pokemon like Chinchou and Mienfoo. In fact, besides other Chinchou, offensive Archen is pretty much the only one that isn't handled by the two of them, although Mienfoo can use Knock Off to knock Archen into defeatist range for the rest of the game. The one thing that keeps me from being 100% on nominating it is that its bulk isn't that great and it doesn't have many resistances, meaning without VoltTurn support, it sometimes can have trouble switching in. I also feel like some of its checks, such as Chinchou, Pawniard, Archen, Magnemite, Tirtouga, and Ferroseed, are all pretty common, leading to Fletchling often having to get through multiple checks before being able to sweep.
Yeah Knock Off is really strong. In particular, I use it a lot as a "scouting" move like U-turn / Volt Switch. What I mean is, like VoltTurn, I can just spam Knock Off without prediction and usually get something good out of it. Like if I bring in Mienfoo or Timburr into the opponent's Pawniard to force the switch, I will just mindlessly press Knock Off and maybe the opponent's Mienfoo check suddenly loses their Eviolite, making them much easier to kill. Like Eviolite is just so popular that losing it on a tanky 'mon suddenly makes it not so tanky anymore, and you don't even really have to predict to do so.
Just because it has those optionsit does not mean that they should be considered. We need to consider what has significant usage and not just every option. I'll be fine with arguing Overheat and HP Grass, but Natural Gift isn't really relevant (And it's kinda ass).
Anything can run natural gift and kill its regular counters. What you need to ask is whether said pokemon can afford the
losses associated with natural gift, and whether that outweighs the gains.
I've said it once and I'll say it again: If Knock Off is broken, stall would not be viable. Walls would have a hard time functioning. Knock Off does not prevent anything from being viable. Take your bias elsewhere guys. If you are struggling to deal with Knock Off, then I STRONGLY suggest that you look into improving as a player. Banning Knock Off is just as ridiculous as banning U-Turn or Volt Switch. After all, both moves cause damage, but gain momentum through smart plays that grant free turns. Do those moves prevent anything from being viable? Absolutely not. They do however discourage bad plays, just like knock off. If you can't handle being punished for a bad play, I don't know why you would even decide to play a strategy game.
Have a problem with bold section; we don't only consider high usage things for ban, the fact is it can get round counters and is therefore unpredictable - the matter is whether something is good not whether it's common or not. The fact that it can run other options is a large factor in whether it's broken or not. Not 'anything' can run Natural Gift, as queenlucy stated, Flechling forces so many switches that it can remove its berry with ease. (reason why i never run apicot berry tbh, cos ground has immunes. I prefer a Grass/Water or even Fighting type Natural Gift)
Post by queenlucy on why Natural Gift isn't a gimmick: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ominate-post-188.3505710/page-11#post-5615242
PM me it
already got his votes, sucker
Usage has EVERYTHING to do with it. You can't assume that fletch is running every move it knows, because the game rules prevent that from happening. You can argue other options by merit of their usage, but not solely of their ability to beat their counters. You won't argue that three layers of spikes should be factored in all calculations because such a circumstance is improbable. Similarly, you can't say that onix counters doduo because dodo could really use natural gift. Adding obscure circumstances does not help your argument, as they simply don't happen enough to be relevant to any debate.
I'm not usage is the only factor for banning something, I'm arguing that we need to stop acting like the factor for banning is JUST versatility. Relevant arguments include both.
boo836 , the same goes for Misdreavus. Houndour checks non-hp fighting sets, as do Porygon and Pawniard. Vullaby checks non-tbolt/dgleam sets. Misdreavus is able to get past all of its checks depending on its set, and for this it has been deemed broken by many players. How would versatility not factor into banning something? A precedent has already been set with the banning of Swirlix. Sure, some sets where kind of checked by some mons, but you could predict the wrong set and you instantly lose. Swirlix had so many completely viable and useful moves it could run, and for this it was banned. How does the same not apply to Fletchling? As for your point about Doduo, it literally has no room to run natural gift. It needs return, it need brave bird, it needs quick attack, and it needs knock off. Fletchling on the other hand can do without certain moves. It doesn't have to run swords dance or roost, so it can forgo those moves in order to bypass its regular checks.
I don't believe this is the suspect discussion thread. I would suggest holding off on comments like this until the thread comes up. Its fine to continue to discuss threats like this in the metagame, but don't put it in the format of "Hey, here are my 3 votes." By the way, usage usually denotes centralization.
One difference between Natural Gift shenanigans and Misdreavus's options is that Natural Gift can only be used once. If you mispredict and that berry gets used up, you are now facing a hard Fletchling counter. If you predict properly and fire off an Acrobatics, they're getting hit by a 55 base power attack. Even if you completely outplay your opponent and they switch their Fletchling counter in for it to get hit by Natural Gift, if they do manage to later heal this counter back up, you're still faced with a hard Fletchling counter. Overheat is another one of Fletchling's coverage options that is much more easily played around than Misdreavus's coverage options, although of course, this is to a much lesser extent.
Another difference is the sheer number of threats Misdreavus is able to beat with a single coverage move compared to Fletchling.
Let's just assume Fletchling is always running Swords Dance and Acrobatics, and Misdreavus is always running Nasty Plot and Shadow Ball (to maximize sweeping potential against a fairly healthy team).
If Misdreavus runs Hidden Power Fighting and Dazzling Gleam, it loses to Porygon, Stunky, and Lickitung.
If it runs Hidden Power Fighting and Substitute, it loses to Vullaby and Stunky.
If it runs Dazzling Gleam and Will-O-Wisp, it loses to Porygon, Houndour, and Lickitung.
Now let's take a look at Fletchling.
If it runs Overheat and U-Turn, it loses to Archen, Chinchou, Tirtouga, Porygon, Omanyte, Onix, Corphish, Shellder, and Elekid.
If it runs Overheat and a grass-type move, it loses to Archen, Porygon, Elekid, Aron, and Tyrunt. If this grass-type move is HP Grass, Drilbur and Corphish also take very little damage, and if it is a Liechi Berry, Slowpoke, Ponyta, Vullaby, Spritzee, Munchlax, and Snubbull will be able to check it due to the pitiful initial damage of Acrobatics.
If it runs Overheat and an Apicot berry, it loses to Archen, Tirtouga, Porygon, Spritzee, Munchlax, Vullaby, Slowpoke, Snubbull, Corphish, Shellder, and Onix.
If it runs HP grass and an Apicot berry, it loses to Archen, Porygon, Drilbur, Spritzee, Vullaby, Munchlax, Slowpoke, Snubull, Corphish, and Ferroseed.
If it runs HP grass and a Ganlon berry (other berries will fail to OHKO 76 HP/156 Def Berry Juice Archen after Stealth Rock, which is the first set on the Archen analysis), it loses to Chinchou, Porygon, Elekid, Aron, Corphish, Slowpoke, Ponyta, Spritzee, Munchlax, Snubbull, and Ferroseed.
If it runs Overheat and a Ganlon Berry, it loses to Chinchou, Tirtouga, Porygon, Elekid, Omanyte, Aron, Corphish, Slowpoke, Ponyta, Spritzee, Munchlax, and Snubbull.
I probably missed a few pokes in all of the lists, but my point is that possible checks to Fletchling are MUCH more common than possible checks to Misdreavus. Also worthy of note is that a perfect Misdreavus would want 6 moveslots; a perfect Fletchling would want 6 moveslots, but also 3 different items and no item at the same time.
The options to play around Fletchling are numerous; the options to play around Misdreavus are much less so.
Another difference is the sheer number of threats Misdreavus is able to beat with a single coverage move compared to Fletchling.
Let's just assume Fletchling is always running Swords Dance and Acrobatics, and Misdreavus is always running Nasty Plot and Shadow Ball (to maximize sweeping potential against a fairly healthy team).
If Misdreavus runs Hidden Power Fighting and Dazzling Gleam, it loses to Porygon, Stunky, and Lickitung.
If it runs Hidden Power Fighting and Substitute, it loses to Vullaby and Stunky.
If it runs Dazzling Gleam and Will-O-Wisp, it loses to Porygon, Houndour, and Lickitung.
Now let's take a look at Fletchling.
If it runs Overheat and U-Turn, it loses to Archen, Chinchou, Tirtouga, Porygon, Omanyte, Onix, Corphish, Shellder, and Elekid.
If it runs Overheat and a grass-type move, it loses to Archen, Porygon, Elekid, Aron, and Tyrunt. If this grass-type move is HP Grass, Drilbur and Corphish also take very little damage, and if it is a Liechi Berry, Slowpoke, Ponyta, Vullaby, Spritzee, Munchlax, and Snubbull will be able to check it due to the pitiful initial damage of Acrobatics.
If it runs Overheat and an Apicot berry, it loses to Archen, Tirtouga, Porygon, Spritzee, Munchlax, Vullaby, Slowpoke, Snubbull, Corphish, Shellder, and Onix.
If it runs HP grass and an Apicot berry, it loses to Archen, Porygon, Drilbur, Spritzee, Vullaby, Munchlax, Slowpoke, Snubull, Corphish, and Ferroseed.
If it runs HP grass and a Ganlon berry (other berries will fail to OHKO 76 HP/156 Def Berry Juice Archen after Stealth Rock, which is the first set on the Archen analysis), it loses to Chinchou, Porygon, Elekid, Aron, Corphish, Slowpoke, Ponyta, Spritzee, Munchlax, Snubbull, and Ferroseed.
If it runs Overheat and a Ganlon Berry, it loses to Chinchou, Tirtouga, Porygon, Elekid, Omanyte, Aron, Corphish, Slowpoke, Ponyta, Spritzee, Munchlax, and Snubbull.
I probably missed a few pokes in all of the lists, but my point is that possible checks to Fletchling are MUCH more common than possible checks to Misdreavus. Also worthy of note is that a perfect Misdreavus would want 6 moveslots; a perfect Fletchling would want 6 moveslots, but also 3 different items and no item at the same time.
The options to play around Fletchling are numerous; the options to play around Misdreavus are much less so.
IMO talking about usage depends on what kind of balancing you want. What I mean is, are you looking at single games or a long run of games on the ladder? For example, looking at last month's stats, Fletchling has
Acrobatics 93.125% | | Swords Dance 60.532% | | U-turn 59.118% | | Roost 48.128% (Overheat instead of Roost for 1760 stats) as the four most used moves. If my goal is to play the ladder, then I won't consider preparing my team for HP Grass simply because I'm ok with losing those 3 games where HP Grass actually appears. My team deals with the majority of Fletchlings I see on the ladder, and I have many options to do so. Of course, I cannot account for sudden shifts in usage, but a sudden shift where I lose almost all of my games vs Fletchling usually doesn't happen--changes are more likely to happen gradually.
The other side is wanting every game to be winnable based on player skill rather than bad matchups and whatnot. This is where the lower usage moves play a part, and where the Pokemon's versatility comes in. I will encounter a Natural Gift Fletchling that probably matches up better against my team no matter how well I play (assuming I build for the above Fletchling). Maybe I lose that game, but once again it is rare that Fletchling carries Natural Gift. I don't think Fletchling is OP because of something like this.
Of course, there are lots of simplifications. Top 4 used moves is not equal the most used moveset. However, the top 4 is still representative of what I'm likely to face. Also, of course KOing a Fletchling is not equal to a victory, but it shows one *can* deal with it.
Lastly, I would like to add that assuming changes happen slowly (IMO a reasonable assumption--rarely do you see huge jumps or drops in usage over a single day), a large amount of games and usage stats based off them is a good predictor of the chances you will see something.
Acrobatics 93.125% | | Swords Dance 60.532% | | U-turn 59.118% | | Roost 48.128% (Overheat instead of Roost for 1760 stats) as the four most used moves. If my goal is to play the ladder, then I won't consider preparing my team for HP Grass simply because I'm ok with losing those 3 games where HP Grass actually appears. My team deals with the majority of Fletchlings I see on the ladder, and I have many options to do so. Of course, I cannot account for sudden shifts in usage, but a sudden shift where I lose almost all of my games vs Fletchling usually doesn't happen--changes are more likely to happen gradually.
The other side is wanting every game to be winnable based on player skill rather than bad matchups and whatnot. This is where the lower usage moves play a part, and where the Pokemon's versatility comes in. I will encounter a Natural Gift Fletchling that probably matches up better against my team no matter how well I play (assuming I build for the above Fletchling). Maybe I lose that game, but once again it is rare that Fletchling carries Natural Gift. I don't think Fletchling is OP because of something like this.
Of course, there are lots of simplifications. Top 4 used moves is not equal the most used moveset. However, the top 4 is still representative of what I'm likely to face. Also, of course KOing a Fletchling is not equal to a victory, but it shows one *can* deal with it.
Lastly, I would like to add that assuming changes happen slowly (IMO a reasonable assumption--rarely do you see huge jumps or drops in usage over a single day), a large amount of games and usage stats based off them is a good predictor of the chances you will see something.
Early on, I was one of the people arguing for a ChloroDrought suspect, but after laddering more and more, I'm a bit on the fence now. Sure, Bellsprout is a massive threat under the sun, but that's only for 7 turns maximum. Fletchling is a problem for a lot of sun teams, and sure, Sprout has Sucker Punch which allows it to out-prioritize Fletch's Acrobatics (under the sun of course), but Sucker Punch is really easy to play around and sun can be stalled out.
Vulpix is basically forced to hold Heat Rock, which leaves it with mediocre defenses that can't be boosted with Eviolite and meh offenses that can't be boosted either. It's also easily trapped and killed by Diglett and when sun is gone, Bellsprout turns into a bit of a liability.
Still though, sun is a pretty good playstyle when it's executed correctly. Bellsprout has Sleep Powder to temporarily cripple checks, as well as decent coverage with Weather Ball and Dual STAB. The thing that really holds it back in my eyes is the limited turns of sun and how common Fletchling and Diglett are. Diglett traps Vulpix, and Fletch can get past Archen, the main Fletch check on most sun teams, with Steel Wing or wear it down with repeated attacks.
Vulpix is basically forced to hold Heat Rock, which leaves it with mediocre defenses that can't be boosted with Eviolite and meh offenses that can't be boosted either. It's also easily trapped and killed by Diglett and when sun is gone, Bellsprout turns into a bit of a liability.
Still though, sun is a pretty good playstyle when it's executed correctly. Bellsprout has Sleep Powder to temporarily cripple checks, as well as decent coverage with Weather Ball and Dual STAB. The thing that really holds it back in my eyes is the limited turns of sun and how common Fletchling and Diglett are. Diglett traps Vulpix, and Fletch can get past Archen, the main Fletch check on most sun teams, with Steel Wing or wear it down with repeated attacks.
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Aside from the obvious Misdreavus who has the tools to beat pretty much everything in the metagame (like Levi said, Taunt+NP beats Porygon, Wisp beats Sucker Punch users, HP Fighting beats bulky houndor) thanks to its awesome bulk, power, speed, and movepool i think i'll vote to ban Arena Trap. I don't think Fletchling is broken per se as it has a lot of checks and counters and it is pretty hard to set up a Swords Dance without Memento support and even then there are still some solid checks. Removing Arena Trap essentially neuters the FletchDig combination (that i've abused to get reqs and i can say it is really really effective) making Fletchling a lot more manageable but without removing it completely from the metagame so that it can mantain its strong revenge killing capabilities. Seriously trapping is bad
Don't forget Litleo, it can act as a counter if Missy does not run HP Fight (or tbolt, that has 37.1% chance to 2HKO). It can switch-in to absorb Shadow Ball or Will-o-wisp, and it resists Dazzling Gleam. Litleo can also run Dark Pulse that hits Missy very hard. I know it's not a real counter, and it's really really underused (#118 lol), but it can be counter of some Missy's movesets, so it has to be a point to consider imo and no one has mentioned it.
Fletchling is still really strong without diglett, and this implies that diglett is the problem where stealth rock and priority can take it down.
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