and this is why i voted to ban dig last time. While i do think its kinda late in the game to be banning dig now, with the pending new metagame, lets ban dig so when we put ORAS LC as an lcpl meta we don't have to regret not doing anything about it.
I think this attitude is obnoxious, unhelpful, ignorant, and frankly, fucking ridiculous (not just you, and you may have meant nothing, so I mean no offense to you...). I'm with Levi here. There is no "goofing". This attitude is only possible if you completely misunderstand what the philosophy was for banning a Pokemon. We collectively decided that it was not broken. The arguments that it were failed miserably under any half-decent scrutiny and thus it was decided that we keep it in.
That decision was made with the acknowledgement, at least by myself and a few others, that should there be a significant policy change - ie. that it is OK to ban something because it's really annoying and restrictive in teambuilding, this would need to be revisited. That would be what's happening now. People are getting a little more frustrated because they are watching the top LCers build 9 or more "high-quality" teams and are seeing how big of an influence Diglett is.
Furthermore, on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, not doing it because it's "too late" is not what I was going for. What I meant was "let's hurry up and start what is a very painstakingly long process" if we are going to actually take a look at it.
lol what? I don't think there's any relevant player that wants to get rid of Diglett on the basis that the metagame is stale or repetitive. Look at SPL, so much random shit has been used effectively. This is probably the metagame with the most viable shit in it, it seems counterintuitive to call it repetitive. IDK about others but to me the very concept of Arena Trap and Shadow Tag is borked and should not be involved in a serious competitive environment. It limits one of two options that a player has in battle (either pick a move or switch) which is in itself inherently uncompetitive. Not only that it has zero counterplay aside from either 1.) running Shed Shell (which I've actually done because trapping is so fucking stupid), or 2.) straight up double switching and outplaying your opponent, which should definitely NOT be the safest option in an environment where risk v reward exists as a concept. You shouldn't have to just straight up coinflip on whether your opponent is going into Diglett or not, and best case scenario you regain a little momentum if they switch into something else. Yes, there a bit more nuances involved, and no, Wynaut / Magnet Pull Magnemite / Trapinch / Gothita aren't broken in the same way that Moody Smeargle isn't broken. But I highly doubt anyone thinks as I do and I'll get so much shit for even suggesting a trapping ban.
It seems like you're just trying to turn a blind eye bro. You can go all the way back to the Misdreavus suspect and see a common link in every single suspect bar the stupid Baton Pass one. Fletchling was suspected alongside Misdreavus for its ability to absolutely hammer anything and everything bar Archen, with Diglett trapping and eliminating every single one of its grounded counters. This was an actual argument in the test, and the outcome was that Fletchling itself was considered not broken and stayed. Fast forward a bit to the actual Diglett suspect test, which was also deemed fine. Now, ironically, we're on our third iteration of a suspect test that somehow involves Diglett. Does that not worry you? like why the fuck are there 3 different iterations of suspect tests where Diglett features as a factor? Drifloon by itself is in no way broken. What was its tier prior to the hype around it? B? B-? Somehow it went completely unnoticed for months on end and all of a sudden its completely bonkers. I don't buy that at all. Diglett is the enabler, its the common link, it already has an ability that's pretty controversial in higher tiers (just look at the Shadow Tag suspect in Ubers circa 2014 / 2015, that was banned then was reversed, the earlier Gengarite suspect test in Ubers which was largely in part to its ability of Shadow Tag, Shadow Tag being banned from UU, or the Shadow Tag ban in OU). I realize that all of my examples are all Shadow Tag, but imo all trapping abilities fit under the same scope (the only one who i can't really see being borked is Magnet Pull, simply because of the entire limiting nature of it and the shitty mons that use it. Nosepass frankly is mediocre unless on a specific team, magnemite with magnet pull frankly blows dicks and can only do one thing compared to how Scarf Mag or whatnot can just shaft teams long dick style).
Anyway those are my remarks
For the record, Drifloon was not always used with Diglett and furthermore, it does not need to be used with Diglett to be effective. People didn't even think of that shit until it Drifloon was thrust into the spotlight. Fletchling also does not need Diglett to be effective, though I think the argument holds more weight in that context.
Maybe Levi strawmanned a bit by saying stale or repetive, but I don't think he's too far off. Whether you agreed or not, Diglett was deemed not broken. Nothing has changed in that regard, and that's NOT what should be up for debate right now. Can we stop pretending that's why we want to ban Diglett? I know you used the "turning a blind eye bro" expression in your post already, but I think it's a bit ignorant of you (and other people who are suggesting this) to say that this was a mistake and it really
is broken (I mean you said it yourself, it's been involved in some way or another so many times and STILL nothing was banned). That mindset didn't get us anywhere last time - the "Diglett is broken" arguments were effectively Traced and Ice Beamed by the collective Porygon of the voters. If you keep pushing that envelope, the same thing will happen. You won't wear this bulky af Recover Porygon down by spamming pussy ass Diglett Earthquakes over and over.
All Pokemon metaphors aside, the discussion should be about whether or not it's OK to ban something because it's really limiting and annoying. We decided last time that it wasn't, but that attitude could have changed unlike Diglett's effectiveness.
So I guess I'll ask the question: Do we all think it's OK to ban something for being this annoying or limiting? Or should we stick to the traditional "only ban what's broken" philosophy?
