Exactly right. I don't think anything that is currently banned should be unbanned. We already know that they are far too overpowered for the OU meta. I love seeing the old suspects brought down however. Even though a couple may end up banned again, it's nice to give them another shot in the meta since they were at one point part of the meta and there was debate over their places in said meta. What's uber is uber for good reason, what's been brought back down has been brought down for good reason. Somethings will be sent up, some will stay. We don't need to waste time by bringing down things like M-Mence, M-Khan, M-Lucario, M-Gengar, etc. when we already know for a fact they won't stay. There's PLENTY to be sifting through, testing, experimenting with, and debating on as is.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
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Exactly right. I don't think anything that is currently banned should be unbanned. We already know that they are far too overpowered for the OU meta. I love seeing the old suspects brought down however. Even though a couple may end up banned again, it's nice to give them another shot in the meta since they were at one point part of the meta and there was debate over their places in said meta. What's uber is uber for good reason, what's been brought back down has been brought down for good reason. Somethings will be sent up, some will stay. We don't need to waste time by bringing down things like M-Mence, M-Khan, M-Lucario, M-Gengar, etc. when we already know for a fact they won't stay. There's PLENTY to be sifting through, testing, experimenting with, and debating on as is.
The Bulu, Heatran, Toxapex core is REALLY good. Feel an Earthquake coming on Heat or Pex? Switch to Bulu who eats it right up. Predict a poison or steel move on your Bulu switch into Heatran who gladly takes that hit. Having trouble dealing with Fairies? Heatran shuts pretty much every Fairy type down. Having trouble dealing with Pherosoma? Toxapex walls it. The synergy between these Pokemon defensively is insane. Couple this with a strong offensive core and you're set.
I have and no it's not spectacular.
Having a pseudo Substitute from the getgo is absolutely fantastic and setting up Swords Dances are incredibly easy to do with it. It's typing is also pretty darn good overall when it comes to switching into some things and forcing other things out. It's speed isn't half bad either and its strong enough to make due with the power it can attain with the assistance of a Life Orb.
However, and this is a big one, Mimikyu just doesn't offer much compared to other available physical attackers unless your explicitly using it just to. Yes, it has a solid enough niche with a great ability but its niche overlaps in several aspects with significantly better mons that offer more to a team on a whole. In a nutshell, the only thing Mimikyu can do for you is find a chance to click SD and either a) clean up or b) click it's boosted STABs until its eventually KO'ed. Defensive utility is pretty much nonexistant besides ballsy switch-ins to predicted immunities or maybe a few weaker resists after Disguise has been used but if you've used Disguise without racking up a boost you've essentially have a useless mon. Without Disguise it's never getting a free SD and it pretty much just death fodder then. At least things like (and these mons were chosen since they target similar mons Mimik does) Weavile, Mega Scizor, even Magearna can function throughout the entirety of the match without worrying about persevering it's only safe way of setup until its sure it can do anything. Weavile has speed, power, and a deadly STAB combo to work with until it can setup with SD, Scizor has a great typing, bulk, and reliable recovery, and Shift Gear Magearna has a godly typing, deep movepool to back it up, Soul Heart for nifty snowballing, well as great initial power to boot.
So all in all, Mimikyu definely has it's uses but it requires such a wide range of criteria to be met before it can even be used in battle whereas other mons that do a similar job Mimik does can do just that and much more without being made a liability .
It's a shame Mimikyu doesn't have better natural bulk or access to reliable recovery. It has a solid defensive typing only being weak to Steel and other Ghosts, and gets all three of Will-O, T-Wave, and Toxic for whatever statuses one might want to use. However, so too do the Rotoms and they have better natural bulk, plus Levitate, plus Volt Switch. There are better defensive/walling options, and there are better set-up options. Mimikyu I think might end up UU instead, where I think it could do very nicely.
So just finished trying out the ladder for the first time, been having some pretty decent success with Kommo-o as an aegis counter. Bulletproof lets it swap into shadow balls all day every day and nothing else does too much to it, while earthquake is plenty enough to threaten it out. I threw together this set in like 5 minutes, so I'll probably need to refine it, but here's an early trial I've tried out:
Kommo-o @ Assault Vest
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
- Sky Uppercut
- Dragon Claw
hits a lot of random stuff pretty hard, can take a SE hit and thwack back pretty nicely, and SR resist is always pretty nice. Might try subbing out Avest and an attack for DD, but honestly I like zard-x better for that, so perhaps this guy is just better as a bulky utility check.
Makes a decent core with aegis, but tbh what doesn't?
Gonna screw around some more tomorrow with bulky offense, that grass tiki guy looks pretty legit.
Kommo-o @ Assault Vest
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
- Sky Uppercut
- Dragon Claw
hits a lot of random stuff pretty hard, can take a SE hit and thwack back pretty nicely, and SR resist is always pretty nice. Might try subbing out Avest and an attack for DD, but honestly I like zard-x better for that, so perhaps this guy is just better as a bulky utility check.
Makes a decent core with aegis, but tbh what doesn't?
Gonna screw around some more tomorrow with bulky offense, that grass tiki guy looks pretty legit.
My view on Mimikyu:
Mimikyu is a fairly decent mon, primarily because Disguise opens up many opportunities for it. With Disguise, your opponent is forced into a lose-lose situation, either staying in and breaking the Disguise to be faced with a +2 Mimikyu or switching out and facing a +2 Mimikyu that cannot be revenge killed. The set to use (not my invention) is SD + Play Rough + Shadow Claw + Shadow Sneak @ Ghostium Z. You can almost guarantee at least one kill in many situations due to this; it is not the most efficient or best sweeper overall, but it can certainly clean up teams with STAB priority or weaken/KO a crucial defensive threat with Z-Shadow Claw. Essentially, Mimikyu has just enough between its generally decent STAB coverage and priority to make a sweeping set work with Disguise.
Mimikyu's primary flaw is that it isn't very strong inherently, which doesn't tend to cause too many issues with Play Rough or Shadow Claw (especially the Z-move version) against Pokemon that aren't very bulky, but makes Shadow Sneak pretty weak. As a result, you'll have to find ways to weaken faster mons before Mimikyu comes out, as well as soften up defensive cores a bit. For this reason, you will want to pair up Mimikyu with some kind of strong breaker, such as Hoopa-U or Tapu Lele. An extra form of support that can create a cohesive gameplan for Mimikyu to sweep is Spikes, generally through the likes of Greninja or Ferrothorn, which help push certain Pokemon into KO range for Shadow Sneak. The other issue that Mimikyu has is frailty, although between priority and Disguise you can manage -- plus, Mimikyu tends to have barely enough bulk to survive one hit from many things, particularly on the special side.
Even on sets that only use Psychic and Dragon attacks?
Why would you only be using psychic and dragon attacks in a meta filled with Aegislash?
If/When Aegislash leaves it might be worth running Soul Dew on Latias occasionally. Latias would appreciate not having her bulk compromised by LO recoil, but also wants to still be able to exert some offensive pressure with STABs.
It wouldn't be an amazing item choice, but it would still be something to consider.
It wouldn't be an amazing item choice, but it would still be something to consider.
I supposed I should've said - I kind of assumed Aegi would be gone.
What about Latios?
Life Orb is better. Unlike Latias you're using it largely for nuking with some defensive utility instead of the other way around, so you want the bigger boost.
What about CM sets that like the better longevity?
Fun anti-meta mon to use right now is Crobat.
Poison/Flying is actually a really good defensive typing, with quad resistances to Grass, Fighting, and Bug, as well as an immunity to Ground and a resistance to Fairy and Poison. You check/counter all of the Tapus, some of the Ultra Beasts (you live any hit from Phermosa and can OHKO back, and you wall Buzzwole without Ice Punch as well), and generally check or counter most Fairy and Grass types.
Since you sit at 130 base speed, you can speed-tie with max speed Tapu Koko as well, which is very important albeit risky as hell.
Crobat @ Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 72 HP / 184 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Cross Poison
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Toxic/Taunt/U-Turn/Defog
Infiltrator is amazing to just get past Subs, which is great if you're trying to Toxic something like Coil Zygarde behind a sub, or hit a SubPunch Buzzwole or a Defensive Leech Seed Tapu Bulu (the latter two of which you can OHKO with your STAB with ease).
184 Atk is to always OHKO Tapu Koko's standard spread with Cross Poison, max speed is to speed-tie with opposing Tapu Koko, and the rest is dumped into HP (which lets you live a 4 SpA Naive Phermosa Ice Beam from full).
Crobat isn't a great OU mon by any means, but at least at this point, I've found it to be useful (and at the very least, quite fun).
Poison/Flying is actually a really good defensive typing, with quad resistances to Grass, Fighting, and Bug, as well as an immunity to Ground and a resistance to Fairy and Poison. You check/counter all of the Tapus, some of the Ultra Beasts (you live any hit from Phermosa and can OHKO back, and you wall Buzzwole without Ice Punch as well), and generally check or counter most Fairy and Grass types.
Since you sit at 130 base speed, you can speed-tie with max speed Tapu Koko as well, which is very important albeit risky as hell.
Crobat @ Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 72 HP / 184 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Cross Poison
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Toxic/Taunt/U-Turn/Defog
Infiltrator is amazing to just get past Subs, which is great if you're trying to Toxic something like Coil Zygarde behind a sub, or hit a SubPunch Buzzwole or a Defensive Leech Seed Tapu Bulu (the latter two of which you can OHKO with your STAB with ease).
184 Atk is to always OHKO Tapu Koko's standard spread with Cross Poison, max speed is to speed-tie with opposing Tapu Koko, and the rest is dumped into HP (which lets you live a 4 SpA Naive Phermosa Ice Beam from full).
Crobat isn't a great OU mon by any means, but at least at this point, I've found it to be useful (and at the very least, quite fun).
I honestly feel that Volcarona is really good in the current meta. Basically set ups all over Pheromosa, Aegislash, Celesteela, Toxapex, Genesect which are some of the best Pokemons around in the current meta. Is not hindered by any terrain and directly benefits from 3 them - Lele let's Volcarona gain pseudo STAB on psychic, blocks Genesect ESpd, Azumarill Aqua Jets and Aerilate QA, Bulu boosts Giga Drain and gives EQ resist, Fini has great type synergy and let's Volcarona hold another item other than Lum Berry. It's best partner in crime Dugtrio also got a sizable boost to its Att stat
Anybody noticed how amazing Charizard-Y is right now? This whole generation is really slow, something Charizard thrives on. I've been having a ton of fun just leading with this right of the bat to OHKO Landorus-I trying to be cheeky and set up rocks on you. This thing 1v1s Landorus-I, Greninja, Pheromosa, Buzzwole, Aegislash, Kartana, Celesteela, Magearna, Genesect and so much more. It's kind of amazing how ill prepared teams are to handle this thing right now, there's far to much reliance on steel and bug types right now. Latios/Latias are nowhere to be found because of all the Steel types. Keldeo and Azumarill are nowhere to be seen because of Toxapex/Aegislash/Mantine/Tapus. A ton of Zard-y counters are unreleased(Mega Latias, Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria) or just not seen that much anymore. Of course, its not without its flaws. Mega Sableye is nerfed meaning there's a large variation of stealth rockers running around and it has three new counters this generation - Pelipper, Mantine and Toxapex. I've been pairing this with Thunderbolt Genesect w/ Life orb / Expert belt / Choice Scarf to lure in the afformentioned threats.
Here are some replays, enjoy em and use Charizard-Y more.
Don't have any replays but Toxapex is also looking like it's going to be definite face off stall this generation. Toxapex just role compresses excellently, you have a solid regen user with access to scald, toxic spikes, haze and recover (This is easily the best set btw). You get an Azumarill counter, Pheromosa, Keldeo counter, Aegislash counter, Charizard-Y counter, Gengar counter, Greninja counter(You live Extrasensory without investment easily), Mega Lopunny counter, Genesect counter if not thunderbolt, CM clefable counter (Haze, although you don't do anything else lol), Mega Scizor counter ect. ect. I can literally go on and on just listing pokemon because this thing is so good. It just role compresses extremely well, even if you do take a hard hit you have regen to easily pivot out again. In my humble opinion this is one of stronger arguments against the ban of Aegislash - Aegislash has never had a counter before.
On your thoughts about Toxapex, not wanting to be rude but I don't want to run Toxa in every team because Aegis is bothering me.
Bad comparison aside, Toxapex is incredibly good and I fully agree with what you said, but it is very passive and easily shut down by Sub / Taunt by some mons. Of course, you do have a team to handle that and Toxa will definitely be a major player in stall, but it is something that undermines its value. Anyway, I do have trouble to muscle past this, so I'm trying SubToxic Salazzle because Heal Bell is non-existent these days, and Toxic basically nullifies Regenerator.
Bad comparison aside, Toxapex is incredibly good and I fully agree with what you said, but it is very passive and easily shut down by Sub / Taunt by some mons. Of course, you do have a team to handle that and Toxa will definitely be a major player in stall, but it is something that undermines its value. Anyway, I do have trouble to muscle past this, so I'm trying SubToxic Salazzle because Heal Bell is non-existent these days, and Toxic basically nullifies Regenerator.
I agree. Volcarona's always been a monster, especially now with all of these new Tapus not only giving it a great amount of support, but also being mostly food for it when it sets up.
However, it sort of has to pick and choose what it wants to be walled by. Quiver Dance and Fire STAB are basically two required moves for it, but after that, it has to choose between Bug Buzz, Giga Drain, HP Ground and the newly-usable Psychic in terms of coverage options. Not running Bug Buzz means the Latis wall you pretty hard, not running Giga Drain makes life harder vs Water types, not running HP Ground means Heatran deals with Volc pretty well and not running Psychic with Tapu Lele support means Haze + Toxic Toxapex give Volcarona a run for its money.
In all honesty, though, the coverage you want to run on Volcarona should be the kinds your team is missing. The fact that it can run any of these coverage options can make opponents worry about it, but Volcarona should be relatively easy to handle when its coverage moves are known. Other than that, it's a great mon right now.
I agree that Volcarona has a rather hard time finding a desirable 3 move coverage. Pairing it with Lele and Dugtrio do solve a bulk of this problem though. Just throw any other 3 mons into the remaining slots and chances are they will cover up every other defensive threat.
Of all the things mentioned, somehow Talon nerf wasn't brought up? Clearly the biggest boost for Volcarona, imo.
Would also note that while Zard Y is good (in large part due to Aegislash), I would be careful in saying it beats Lando-I. Rock Slide is fairly decent coverage on it right now due to the Mantine and Pelipper buffs, especially for Rocker sets that want to beat Defoggers.
Would also note that while Zard Y is good (in large part due to Aegislash), I would be careful in saying it beats Lando-I. Rock Slide is fairly decent coverage on it right now due to the Mantine and Pelipper buffs, especially for Rocker sets that want to beat Defoggers.
I don't agree that Zard Y is particularly good in the current metagame. Although there's no Mega Latias, Zard Y has to contend with new, non-Pursuit weak hard stops in Toxapex and Mantine, neutering the balance-breaking capabilities it boasted in the past. Offense has access to new checks in Zygarde and Nihilego, in addition to Latios/Garchomp as usual and another option to revenge kill with an OHKO in Tapu Koko. Furthermore, the buff to rain adds another style that Zard Y isn't too effective against. It isn't that great of a Landorus check in a metagame where Rock Slide is one of the most popular/effective options in light of Mantine. I recognize that Zard Y may have lost some answers and can 1v1 some new or unbanned Pokemon, but the generational shift also gave it new answers that make it much less effective against balance, the style it is meant to excel against. It isn't particularly good against offense or stall as a byproduct of its speed stat and 4x SR weakness (offense can pressure SR to stay up). Chansey+Mantine stall, which is fairly effective, renders Zard Y almost completely useless. Zard Y is supposed to be a balance breaker, so balance gaining splashable new answers to it is quite debilitating.
That is not to say Zard Y is bad, especially because it is such a great Genesect answer if you can keep SR off the field. However, the picture you are painting of the metagame ignores key factors that actually make Zard Y worse overall.
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Chansey and Toxapex are easily "shut down" by Taunt! Yup! That's all it takes. That one move. Just slap that somewhere on your team and they're done like dinner. Right?
Now first of all Taunt is only ever the correct choice if on the turn you went for it, your opponent tried to use a status move. If they instead chose to attack, you just gave them a free hit. Now knowing whether or not it might be coming is relatively simple.
Now first of all Taunt is only ever the correct choice if on the turn you went for it, your opponent tried to use a status move. If they instead chose to attack, you just gave them a free hit. Now knowing whether or not it might be coming is relatively simple.
- There are only so many full evolved Pokémon capable of learning the move. From there we narrow it down further
- Those that are viable must either be bulky with many resistances like Heatran or an immediate threat like a Gengar.
In Heatran's case it can't be both a threat with Special attack investment and a damage boosting item and a check/team support member at the same time. For Gengar, it could afford to include it since its two STABS + Focus Blast gave it perfect neutral coverage, but not everyone had that luxury. Which brings me to the next point. - This immediately eliminates any and all Choice builds. Going further. Sets that use a setup move wouldn't dare give up on one of their three precious attack slots just for Taunt. Life orb/Focus Sash would need to choose to give up precious coverage. Weavile can learn Taunt. What would you give up for it? Fighting coverage? It's ice priority? Dark STAB?
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Well you don't need taunt anyway, all you have to do is put u-turn and knock off on your team and you've countered these defensive cores like Chansey+Toxapex because knock off means it's impossible to punish them for u-turns with rocky helmet. So just knock off first to get rid of the rocky helmet he added in teambuilder to try to be cute, then spam u-turn. Then the Xurkitree, Hoopa-U or whatever you switch in will single handedly destroy those cores.
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stall is quite literally at its worst right now because not only are there a ton of good viable taunt users running around, the amount of mons running around that can straight up power through stall is at its highest because of things like hoopa-u, cm lele, z-mana etc, these mons are near autowin because of how effective they are at breaking down fat teams, and unless you play like a dumbass and let everything get weakened, you're rarely losing the stall matchup.
if you want a list of good taunt users: fini, koko, heatran, mzam, mgyara, lele, and plenty more oddballs. those 6 at the very least are among some of the best mons in the tier right now so you shouldn't have trouble finding any taunt users at all lol, and even then stallbreaking isn't just limited to taunt, you've got a bunch of things like getting your hazards up, abusing double switches, abusing uturn/vswitch to get what you need in, knock off, and in general a shit ton of super powerful attackers that don't really care and just nuke anything they want.
stall is quite literally at its worst right now because not only are there a ton of good viable taunt users running around, the amount of mons running around that can straight up power through stall is at its highest because of things like hoopa-u, cm lele, z-mana etc, these mons are near autowin because of how effective they are at breaking down fat teams, and unless you play like a dumbass and let everything get weakened, you're rarely losing the stall matchup.
if you want a list of good taunt users: fini, koko, heatran, mzam, mgyara, lele, and plenty more oddballs. those 6 at the very least are among some of the best mons in the tier right now so you shouldn't have trouble finding any taunt users at all lol, and even then stallbreaking isn't just limited to taunt, you've got a bunch of things like getting your hazards up, abusing double switches, abusing uturn/vswitch to get what you need in, knock off, and in general a shit ton of super powerful attackers that don't really care and just nuke anything they want.
Liking this meta right now more than I did ORAS. Minus stupid stuff like Hoopa-U, Greninja, Pheramosa and to an extent Lando-I (I think Genesect with Dugtrio maiming it's checks is also ridiculous but I think banning one or the other will do) this meta is actually a lot easier to handle stuff than in ORAS primarily due to the fact that Pokemon like Toxapex and Aegislash nerfed a lot of Pokemon that made teambuilding an actual bitch and compared to ORAS I've seen way fewer games where match-up decides everything, though as p2 said stall is still match up based as hell but it doesn't translate to other playstyles like it did last gen.
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