Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

Coconut

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Welcome to the Galar region! Discuss any aspects of the Sword and Shield Little Cup metagame in this thread. This can include Pokemon that you think are ridiculously strong, movesets that are unique that you think could be viable, or any other aspect of LC that you find interesting.

A reminder that we have a Viability Rankings on the way, so try to avoid giving things ranks for now. In addition, the council is also hard at work trying to get ourselves ready for the new generation as quickly as possible, so keep that in mind as we move forward.

Keep Ekans discussion out of here as well, there's a thread for that too.
 
Thoughts on the meta at the moment
=======================
The current meta seems tricky to build for given how good certain mons/archetypes are. To start with, I'll look at last gen's LC ubers and see if they're still broken.
Aipom, Gligar, Meditite, Misdreavus, Murkrow, Porygon, Scyther, Tangela, Yanma - Not in the game
Sneasel, Swirlix - Also banned

Cutiefly - This thing can set webs, quiver dance up and fire off strong STAB bug buzz and moonblast, with psychic for coverage. It cant blast through Ferroseed now due to the loss of hidden power, so it does have a hard check. Other viable checks include Honedge, Cufant, Klink and possibly others. I think the combination of webs and quiver dance make this still broken, especially as webs looks harder to deal with due to no Snivy.


Drifloon - Originally banned due to its stally sets, with will-o-wisp able to shut down physical attackers and unburden making it very hard to outspeed. However, so far Drifloon has not got recycle, meaning it cant stall by recycling berry juice. I think it's too early to judge whether Drifloon is broken, so it should be left alone for now.


Gothita - This thing is still potent, able to trick a choice scarf onto a defensive mon such as spritzee or set up calm mind on special attackers with a resttalk set. Unlike Drifloon, Gothita doesn't seem to have lost it's traits that got it banned in the first place


Trapinch - The bulky arena trapper still carries over it's benefits from USM, with strong bulk making it able to remove Onix (providing it hasn't setup too much), Pawniard (a weakened force no knock off or pursuit), Galarian-Ponyta (Trapinch now gets First Impression), and others steel types (often freeing up Cutiefly as alluded to above). I think this mon will eventually be banned for the same reasons as in USM.


Vulpix - Vulpix was banned due to its ability drought, enabling it to set sun for chlorophyll sweepers such as Bellsprout and Oddish to break through teams. However, Bellsprout was cut from SWSH, meaning Oddish and Cherubi are the primary sun abusers (unless Bulbasaur is released soon). Combine this with the fact that Vulpix-Alola is still a good hail/veil setter and Drilbur got a rapid spin buff and Hippopotas is in SWSH suggest that Vulpix and sun are not broken.


Wingull - One of the more recent bans in USM, due to its good offensive typing and the ability of Z-hurricane to break through opponents, Wingull has lost its edge due to the loss of Z-moves. Based on this, I think that Wingull is the same as Drifloon in that it's too early to judge whether its broken.

=======================
And now to look at a few archetypes. I cba to go through every single one, so I've gone with the easy ones.

Webs - The main checks to webs in USM were Snivy (gone), Pawniard (weakened) and flying types (primarily Vullaby) and levitate/clear body users (Gastly, Klink, Dreepy and Koffing). As such, it's more difficult to counter webs at team preview whilst getting good matchups elsewhere. However, the rapid spin buff is useful for mons with access to it (Drilbur, Gossifleur, Squirtle, Baltoy, Rolycoly etc.) although the best rapid spinner, Staryu, is gone. The main downside to webs is the loss of some abusers, primarily Abra and Magnemite. If Cutiefly goes however, the only web setter will be Dewpider, a rather slow setter with a decent amount of checks. I think this is one of the leading archetypes for now.


Veils - Still really good, primarily countered by webs teams. There's a decent number of setup sweepers, such as Shellder, Scraggy, Vullaby who can all take advantage of the veil protection and break through opposing defensive cores.


Weather
Sun is not as good with Bellsprout gone. Additionally it suffers from veils still being very good. This could eventually be a solid playstyle but it's too early to tell.
Hail is much worse following the loss of Sandshrew-Alola, leaving the underwhelming Cubchoo as the only slush rush sweeper. This means the main use of hail is to set aurora veil and counter other weather teams.
Sand seems pretty similar to USM. Hippopotas is the setter, while Drilbur is the best abuser (Diglett-Alola benefit somewhat from sand, and Sandshrew is gone). The main difference is that Drilbur is arguably the best user of the newly buffed rapid spin, meaning it sees a lot more use.
Rain still has no setter via ability, so kinda sucks.

=======================
New mons
A lot of the new mons are reasonably solid, only Galarian-Corsola and Galarian-Farfetch'd stand out in particular. Galarian-Corsola should be banned due to its ridiculous stats and supporting movepool. Galarian-Farfetch'd seems like a powerful wallbreaker, held back mostly by its middling speed tier and mediocre bulk. Other good newcomers include Cufant, Grookey, Scorbunny (Sobble's movepool does support its stats, so it won't see much use unless it gets better special moves), Sinistea, Galarian-Darumaka, Dreepy, etc.

Old mons that got better
Gastly now can't be trapped, making it one of the best wallbreakers in the new meta. Onix got head smash and dragon dance, giving it versatility to setup or act as utility. Ferroseed can't be hit by hidden power fire on every special attacker. Drilbur is the biggest winner from the rapid spin speed boost as detailed above. Vullaby is the now in a small minority of mons with access to STAB knock off. Chinchou is now the best volt switch user and STAB pivot.

Old mons that got worse
Most knock off users, particularly Pawniard. Bunnelby and any other mons who relied on return/frustration. Any special attackers who relied on hidden power to break through their checks.

Summary
Quite a lot of mons need to be looked at/banned. However, there's a few of last gens LC ubers which seem to be fine now. This all assumes btw that Dynamax will be banned.
 

Altariel von Sweep

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As of lately, I have been running this curious Hazard spam able to put a lot of pressure on many common builds we have seen the first day:


Dwebble @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Rock Blast

Corsola-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Cursed Body
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
- Calm Mind
- Hex

Gastly @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Substitute

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brick Break
- Night Slash
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head

Croagunk @ Berry Juice
Ability: Dry Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 116 Def / 188 SpA / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Wave
- Vacuum Wave
- Focus Blast

Farfetch'd-Galar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
Level: 5
EVs: 20 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Poison Jab
- Close Combat
- Knock Off


This team was built prior to Galarian Corsola's ban announcement, but shows how stupidly hard Hazard Spam is to face. Dwebble throughout the bad Knock Off distribution and the departure of so many Pokemon that threatened it such as Staryu and Snivy has improved drastically, as its Lead SturdyJuice is now the best set out there, being able to put Stealth Rock + 1-2 layers of Spikes. From this point we are going great, until we notice that Ghost spam is the best core that can fit thanks to their ability to spinblock. In this team, Galarian Corsola was able to outbulk so many threats in order to cripple them and eventually knock them out, while Gastly benefits from netting safe OHKO with the amount of pressure the hazards put into the opposing team. Pawniard, thanks to its role compression and typing, can act as a Ghost-type check, Flying-type check and Defog deterrent, rounding the hazard removal control core with these two. In this team I felt Pawniard itself was going to be a big problem, so I put Brick Break in order to win the mirror match-up. Before continuing with the overview of the team, I'd like to pinpoint how Water has become a really frightening type to face with Corphish benefitting from the departure of the best Grass-types, as well as Chinchou being a more annoying pivot with strong attacks. In that moment, I knew Croagunk was going to be useful, as it is benefitted by the departure of Abra, Mienfoo, Staryu, as well as the decaying popularity of Diglett. Nasty Plot or Mixed, Croagunk is able to put a halt on Corphish while exerting another role compression. Lastly, the glue to the team can be whatever the living hoopla you want. In my case, Scarf Galarian Farfetch'd is a really annoying Pokemon to deal with, and even more with lots of hazards sets, as Spritzee cannot switch-in freely, while beating the mirror matchup with Brave Bird.

The answers to this team are quite reduced, but there are notable ones that can be patched with a single change:


Even so, Water-types manage to keep being a nuisance, which mean that if Croagunk is weakened, they can go wild.

SD Corphish and Krabby benefit from so many of their threats gone, meaning they can bulldoze through Ground-types such as Onix, Mudbray and Trapinch with relevant ease, as well as net 2HKOs on very bulky threats such as Spitzee, Ferroseed, and in Krabby's case, OHKO on Vullaby. Wingull is the biggest threat to the integrity of the team with its Flying/Water STAB combination, beating everything and having only GCorsola as my switch-in. Needlessly to say, if GCorsola gets Knocked Off, it is going to get really rough, and Wingull pivoting in front of it does not help either. Pawniard not getting Pursuit means Wingull will always get out unharmed, while Chinchou's Scarf sets punch big holes with STAB Thunderbolt, and can retreat the same way as Wingull without getting punished.

Which is the solution to this issue? Running Frillish, of course! Taking in consideration a state where Galarian Corsola is already banned, Frillish's bulk and typing feel familiar for these kind of teams, and even solve the problem of having to face Water-types thanks to Water Absorb. Cursed Body sets are equally useful as Water Absorb ones, but inmunities come pretty handy in this metagame right now. The set to use would be something like this:


Frillish @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 116 Def / 76 SpA / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover


With this in mind, Croagunk may not be necesary as part of these teams, but can still be used. So considering the importance of Ghost-types in the metagame, Hazard Spam archetypes would follow the next structure:

Dwebble + 1/2 Ghost-types + Pawniard + 2/3 fillers

In terms of viability, it has gotten overshadowed by the mostly hyped Webs Hyper Offense, with Cutiefly going rampant, but I'd dare both archetypes are equally viable with their strengths and flaws. However, the one that will stand out the most for the rest of the generation will be Hazard Spam.
 

mad0ka

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Don't have too too much to add, but I just wanted to note-- I actually think webs/veils/hazard stack got incredibly nerfed this gen. They all sort of relied on Pawniard to punish the enemy for defogging, but now that Timburr has access to defog, they don't really have any counterplay for all the hazards/screens just being effortlessly denied. Couple that with how good Gastly is right now, I just don't think they're in a good spot at all.
 
Don't have too too much to add, but I just wanted to note-- I actually think webs/veils/hazard stack got incredibly nerfed this gen. They all sort of relied on Pawniard to punish the enemy for defogging, but now that Timburr has access to defog, they don't really have any counterplay for all the hazards/screens just being effortlessly denied. Couple that with how good Gastly is right now, I just don't think they're in a good spot at all.
Nah, to be honest im not agree. I have not seen any timburr yet in this 2 days, timburr is outclassed by Farfetch'd-Galar, which is really better. In my opinion not too many people is going to play timburr, and less defog timburr, we have too many betters defoggers, like vullaby or the the aforementioned Farfetch'd-Galar (it should be noted, that defog Farfetch'd-Galar is not good). To not mention the boost of rapid spinner. So yeah, without snivy or staryu, the new ghost types of the metagme and the incredible sweepers and wallbrackers like sinistea, gastly or vulla in my opinion webs and hazard spam are incredible.
 

DC

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Just wanted to state some trends that I noticed so far (w/o dynamax)

Types that are good/great:
Water: Lost (Staryu, Tirtouga, Surskit, Clamperl, Carvanha); Gain (Wingull)

Water is arguably the best type in LC currently for both offense and utility. With the removal of many of its checks (grass and electric) plus the popularity of ground types, clicking scald does not really have many major drawbacks. On the other side, the utility that many Water pokes provide is invaluable. Mareanie (T-spike setter, hazer), Dewpider (Webs), Frillish (Wisp, Water resist/immunity), and Chinchou (Water resist/immunity) synergize well with current trends.

Ghost: Lost (Nothing); Gain (G-Corsola, Driftloon)
Ghost was projected to be extremely good in SwSh and that was proven correct. Nerfs to Knock users, Pawniard, and removal of pursuit really helped the type in Gen 8. G-corsola is honestly banworthy, boosting excellent moves (Wisp, SSap) with remarkable bulk (60/100/100). Gastly is an offensive nuisance, Frillish is a defensive asset, and Sinistea is a decent SS sweeper. I don’t know how good drifloon is gonna be, but the Ghost type, as a whole, will be great spamming wisp + hex.

Ground: Lost (Nothing); Gain (Trapinch)
The boost that Ground gained as an offensive type cannot be understated. Given the lack of grass types in the tier plus removal of hidden power, Onix, Mudbray, and Trapinch got better offensively (not so much Diglett). Offensive Onix with DD + Head Smash is great. Bray is pretty much still the hard-hitting, defensive mule from SM. Trapinch is best trapper, removing threats like Onix, Pawn, and Dig (like SM) while being able to threaten the new pony with first impression. Overall, great offensive type.

Fairy: Lost (Nothing); Gain (Cutiefly)
Honestly, Fairy type is busted offensively just because of cutiefly. A 19 speed mon with QD, stab moonblast, coverage in psychic, and access to webs is pretty oppressive (wouldn’t be surprised at its ban). Generally, most teams tend to skimp on their fairy checks, limiting to mostly mareanie or ferro. One is susceptible to trapping while the other has to fulfill other roles and gets worn down. So yeah, fairy is in a really good spot (for now).

Types that got worse:

Fire (Lost Ponyta), Electric (Lost Mag, Elekid ig),
Dark (Got hella nerfed), Grass (Lost Snivy, Foongus)

Pretty self-explanatory. Fire lost its only relevant mon, a mon that provides defensive utility with wisp and offensive pressure with its good move pool. Electric lost Mag, a ferro trapper and a decent check to fairies and waters. Grass lost Foongus (spore, fighting resist, water resist, general pivot) and Snivy (webs answer, late game cleaner). Dark saw nerfs in movepool (mainly knock and pursuit) which limits its utility against Ghost and Psychic. Vullaby lost Hidden Power which means it cannot pressure its checks as before.
 
Just wanted to give my understandings about Water-Spam.


Offensively, its often going to be consist of Corphish, Wingull and Chinchou in my opinion.

Corphish provides priority to the team, as well as wallbreaking and Knock Off support. There's a few cases that it appreciates the rain being summoned by Max Geyger coming from its teammates, and is able to achieved certain KOs it otherwise, misses without rain support, despite its limited turns.
Some calcs:
196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr in Rain: 20-24 (83.3 - 100%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes( survives if rocks)

+2 196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Vullaby in Rain: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (25/15 BJ set survives from full)

+2 196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 196 HP / 100 Def Eviolite Mareanie in Rain: 18-22 (75 - 91.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Aqua Jet vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Farfetch'd-Galar in Rain: 20-24 (90.9 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Wingull is the main Dynamax abuser. Max Airstream is quite useful to prevent Wingull from being revenge killed. Max Geyser provides nice utility to its other Water teammate and Wingull itself post Dynamax.

Chinchou is a great addition to Water-Spam teams with its ability to pivot and chip checks using STAB Volt Switch, and the utility from Volt Absorb comes quite in handy against Electric moves, particularly opposing Chinchou (they kind of...walled each other due to lack of Hidden Power).
 
Just wanted to state some trends that I noticed so far (w/o dynamax)

Types that are good/great:
Water: Lost (Staryu, Tirtouga, Surskit, Clamperl, Carvanha); Gain (Wingull)

Water is arguably the best type in LC currently for both offense and utility. With the removal of many of its checks (grass and electric) plus the popularity of ground types, clicking scald does not really have many major drawbacks. On the other side, the utility that many Water pokes provide is invaluable. Mareanie (T-spike setter, hazer), Dewpider (Webs), Frillish (Wisp, Water resist/immunity), and Chinchou (Water resist/immunity) synergize well with current trends.

Ghost: Lost (Nothing); Gain (G-Corsola, Driftloon)
Ghost was projected to be extremely good in SwSh and that was proven correct. Nerfs to Knock users, Pawniard, and removal of pursuit really helped the type in Gen 8. G-corsola is honestly banworthy, boosting excellent moves (Wisp, SSap) with remarkable bulk (60/100/100). Gastly is an offensive nuisance, Frillish is a defensive asset, and Sinistea is a decent SS sweeper. I don’t know how good drifloon is gonna be, but the Ghost type, as a whole, will be great spamming wisp + hex.

Ground: Lost (Nothing); Gain (Trapinch)
The boost that Ground gained as an offensive type cannot be understated. Given the lack of grass types in the tier plus removal of hidden power, Onix, Mudbray, and Trapinch got better offensively (not so much Diglett). Offensive Onix with DD + Head Smash is great. Bray is pretty much still the hard-hitting, defensive mule from SM. Trapinch is best trapper, removing threats like Onix, Pawn, and Dig (like SM) while being able to threaten the new pony with first impression. Overall, great offensive type.

Fairy: Lost (Nothing); Gain (Cutiefly)
Honestly, Fairy type is busted offensively just because of cutiefly. A 19 speed mon with QD, stab moonblast, coverage in psychic, and access to webs is pretty oppressive (wouldn’t be surprised at its ban). Generally, most teams tend to skimp on their fairy checks, limiting to mostly mareanie or ferro. One is susceptible to trapping while the other has to fulfill other roles and gets worn down. So yeah, fairy is in a really good spot (for now).

Types that got worse:

Fire (Lost Ponyta), Electric (Lost Mag, Elekid ig),
Dark (Got hella nerfed), Grass (Lost Snivy, Foongus)

Pretty self-explanatory. Fire lost its only relevant mon, a mon that provides defensive utility with wisp and offensive pressure with its good move pool. Electric lost Mag, a ferro trapper and a decent check to fairies and waters. Grass lost Foongus (spore, fighting resist, water resist, general pivot) and Snivy (webs answer, late game cleaner). Dark saw nerfs in movepool (mainly knock and pursuit) which limits its utility against Ghost and Psychic. Vullaby lost Hidden Power which means it cannot pressure its checks as before.
Just thought i would give my thoughts on this subject matter :)

Other Buffed Types in SWSH

Fighting
---------
Yes, I know that everyone's favorite meta defining weasel Mienfoo was cut but, IMO the Fighting type as a whole was buffed with two excellent additions. First off Galar Farfetch'd, this mon is a beast. Not only does this mon serve as a wicked wall breaker with SD 3 attacks, but it also has some great utility with knock off and defog. The second mon i'd like to discuss for the Fighting type is Clobbopus; everyone is sleeping on this mon for no reason. Despite a limited move pool Clobbopus has pretty solid coverage, with access to both feint, substitute, and bulk up it could serve as a weird amalgamation between Mienfoo and Timburr.

Steel
-----
The lack of any magnet pull trappers makes the Steel typing a million times better. Without Magnemite, Ferroseed gets to wall half the little cup tier for free. The buff to Steel types mainly applies to Pre-Galar Pokemon, but the two new Steel types in LC range from meh to maybe good. Galar Meowth has a cool ability in tough claws but lacks meaningful coverage or utility to abuse it well. Cufant on the other hand is a very interesting Stealth Rocker; great ability, good typing and stats, and a surprisingly solid move pool. Look out for Cufant!

Other Notable Gains

Grass gains Grookey and Gossifleur
Fire gains Scorbunny and Sizzleped, Rolycoly spins and sets up Stealth Rocks but is outclassed by Drilbur
Psychic gains Hatenna and Ponyta
Ground gains Silicobra and Galar Yamask
Ice gains Galar Darumaka
 

Jaajgko

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With LC Ekans Draft coming soon I think it is really important to take a look at the broken stuff and quickly remove the mons that are without much doubt broken. Let's first look at the returning LC Ubers : Sneasel, Swirlix, Cutiefly, Gothita, Trapinch, Wingull, Drifloon, Vulpix

:Sneasel:
It just lost Pursuit but otherwise it's the same it has ever been so it should stay in LC Ubers, there is no point in testing it.

:Swirlix:
It lost Belly Drum so it got a bit nerfed but apparently it wasn't even its stronger set and it also gets sticky web so it could be tested but I think we can safely keep it in LC Ubers.

:Cutiefly:
It lost Hidden Power but I don't think it's a nerf at all because the two best steel types don't even resist its stabs. It can run Sticky Web, Quiver Dance 3 attacks (Bug Buzz Moonblast Psychic), Quiver Dance Baton Pass which all seem very hard to prepare against, especially the Quiver Dance baton pass one which is absurd, so I don't think there's much point testing it, even if Baton Pass gets banned.

:Gothita:
It was very quickly banned last generation but it was allowed in ORAS, so I think it should be tested. The scarf sets seems really good in a very offensive looking metagame. It can punish heavily on any Double Switch, Revenge Kill or U-Turn/Volt Switch. It traps Timburr, Onix, Mareanie, Wingull and even Vullaby and Mudbray with a bit of chip damage. Basically, any mon that is weak to either Psychich, Thunderbolt or Energy Ball (or simply a mon that doesn't resist Psychic and that is not so bulky). It can also trap a bulky mon (or any mon really) like Spritzee or Ferroseed to give its choice scarf. Its main drawback was that it could get Pursuit trapped right after it trapped the threat it wanted to remove, but that's not the case anymore. Pawniard also lost Knock Off so now it doesn't even have to fear giving it a free Knock Off. It can also run a Bulky Set with Calm Mind Psychic Thunderbolt Rest but in such an offensive-looking metagame and given that some of the best defensive mons are now Ferroseeed, Corsola-Galar and Frillish, it finds a harder time setting up, letting only Koffing, Mareanie, Spritzee and Timburr giving it a setup opportunity (which got worse imo). It has drawbacks though, it can give free setup opportunities to mons such as Scraggy, Onix, Drifloon, Vullaby and Galarian Ponyta. But I think this can be fixed in the teambuilder and it seems like it can trap many threats in a game with basic plays like double switching it on an Onix for example, switching in with its decent bulk or revenge killing. It doesn't seem like an absurd force in the metagame like the aforementioned but I think there needs to be a council vote very quickly after testing it for 1-2 weeks.

:Trapinch:
This mon got hugely buffed : it now has acces to First Impression. It is now not only able to successfully trap many threats but also revenge kill threats with its powerful priority. To give you an idea, its first impression is stronger than Timburr's mach punch. Its Pawniard and Ponyta match-ups got very easy since Pawniard lost knock off and Ponyta lost its ability to power through it with a Z-Flare Blitz (though regular Ponyta it isn't available yet). With 236 defense EVs it can switch on Onix and kill it with Giga Drain. It can also run a bit more speed and Superpower to finish off a weakened Ferroseed, and can even surprise a Mudbray bit Dynamaxing and 2HKO it with Max-Giga Drain. What's even better about it is that it is even kinda difficult to revenge kill, because of the absence of Foonguss, Mienfoo, Staryu and Staryu. This mon got even better than it was in Gen 7 and like Gothita I think it needs to be council voted very quickly after a few weeks of testing it.

:Wingull:
Some may say that the removal of nerfed it, but on the opposite I think Dynamax fits it even more than Z-moves. With a Z-move it was able to fire off a strong Supersonic Skystrike with perfect accuracy, but now it can boost its speed, setup rain, hit even harder than supersonic skystrike with rain boosted max geyser, or simply with a life orb boosted max move. It can even heal itself with Rain Dish a have a more decent bulk with an Eviolite, whereas Wingull had to hold a Flynium-Z. It has very few checks, the best one being Water Absorb Chinchou, which can be trapped by Diglett. Spedef Frillish, Spritzee and Corsola could do the job, but they have to fear Knock Off + Dynamaxing. It is hard to switch it in, but once it comes in it is very hard to stop. That said, with an eviolite and a good prediction, you can switch it on Galarian Farfetch'd, Mudbray, Timburr, Drilbur and Cufant, and with its huge speed, and strong stabs, it can easily revenge kill a lot of threats. Just like I said for the two previous one, I think action needs to be taken quickly.

:Drifloon:
Drifloon lost a big element of what got it banned from ORAS and SM : Recycle. Drifloon is now no longer able to stay in eternally on the field and wait until the opposing Pawniard or Vullaby gets worn down. Unlike the other ghost types, it didn't learn Strength Sap to make up for it. Though I think Drifloon can still be good with a set without Recycle, which would be Shadow Ball/Hex Thunderbolt/Acrobatics Will-O-Wisp Substitute. It can still be pretty annoying, but for a shorter time, and since it doesn't get much switch-in opportunities, this will hurt it a lot. Its ability to burn Vullaby, Pawniard and Onix will be interesting, but I don't think it should get banned or even suspect tested. It should thus be kept in the metagame until Pokemon Home gets released.

:Vulpix:
Vulpix was at its strongest last gen along with Bellsprout which was a really strong Z-user, but now that only Vulpix made it in the new games and that the only good Sun sweeper is Oddish, which lost access to hidden power, it is looking much healthier. Vulpix gained weather ball and Memento, which makes its choice scarf set better, but Oddish only has his two stabs, which makes way easier to wall with steel types, especially Ferroseed. I think Oddish would either run an offensive set which can overpower checks like Pawniard, Cufant and Vullaby by putting them to sleep, but is completely unable to damage Ferroseed, so it would need to be paired with a lure; or a bulkier set that makes use of Strength Sap to use it as the team's Fitghing check (with optionally more defense and HP). Depending on Ferroseed's viability Sun might be good, might be bad, but I think it can stay in the meta until Bulbasaur comes.

So that's it for the older LC Ubers. Now let's take a look at the new mons that could end up in the ban list.

:Corsola:
Galarian Corsola has a massive bulk, paired with moves that fit it perfectly in Will-O-Wisp, Strenght Sap, Stealth Rock and Calm Mind. It can even put pressure offensively with its great coverage moves like Ice Beam, to hit Vullaby and Mudbray, or Earth Power to hit Pawniard. Its absurb bulky allows it to switch on any type of threat without Knock Off, here are some calcs :
196+ Atk Mudbray Earthquake vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola : 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Onix Head Smash vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Zen Headbutt vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Thunder Punch vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 5-6 (20 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
116+ Atk Water Bubble Dewpider Liquidation vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 8-12 (32 - 48%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236 Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 15-20 (60 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sinistea:
I think there's not much to say about this one, Shell Smash + Baton Pass is just extremely overpowered. You can pair it with Power Trip Pancham, Stored Power Ponyta-Galar, Mudbray or any mon and get an easy sweep with any of them. The question is more about baton pass. Do we ban Baton Pass or do we ban mons that use Baton Pass ? I think banning mons that are broken with Baton Pass is easier, which seem to be Sinistea and Cutiefly at the moment, because I think they have the potential to be overpowered even without Baton Pass anyway, so banning them instead of banning baton pass hits two birds with a single rock. On top of that, with Baton Pass being a TR now, may mons have access to it, so we may see cool strategies with Baton Pass appearing, like in ADV, and if it ends up being unhealthy, we can still ban it later.

:Farfetch
The latter two are very likely to end up banned but Farfetch'd is more debatable. It has huge attack stat of 95 allowing it to be a very strong breaker with Swords Dance. On top of that, it has perfect coverage with Knock Off and Poison Jab, reducing its checks to only a few. To make up for the average speed, it can run a choice scarf set that makes use of its scrappy ability and raw attack stat that can still sweep without any boost. Finally, a variant to the SD Set could be a set with Brave Bird over Poison Jab or SD, to get a speed boost when Dynamaxed. The best answers right now are Wingull, Koffing, Mareanie and Galarian Ponyta, but as I said Wingull could very likely end up banned, Koffing wasn't a defensive staple last gen and while it may get better I don't think it'll be higher than A- and still has to fear +2 Brave Bird without Eviolite, Mareanie can get trapped by Diglett, especially if it gets Knocked Off, and Galarian Ponyta fears Knock Off. But Farfetch'd has obviously a problem with speed, 16 isn't that amazing so if the metagame ends up being really offensive, it may not be that amazing, but even then it can still run a choice scarf set, and with the loss of Abra, Staryu and potentially Wingull, the metagame could be slow enough to have limited revenge killers to Farfetch'd. I think this mon needs to be in the watch list, but it doesn't seem as busted as the ones I previously mentioned, so I think we can keep it a bit longer to see how the metagame adapts to it.

And finally, some mons that were fine last generation may end up broken because of the buffs they got or the favorable metagame changes.

:Onix:
First is Onix which looks really threatening this gen, for many reasons. First it has become way more reliable as a Vullaby answer, since it doesn't need to fear HP Grass anymore. But most importantly, it got really strong offensively. In Gen 7, Onix was very predictable, as it had very few options.
It had the Eviolite or Groundium-Z Weak Armor set with Explosion, Protect or Endure as the last move, or the Sturdy Juice set, which was almost only seen on Webs so it wasn't really a surprise. But now, it gained access to Body Press, Dragon Dance and Head Smash, which make it way more unpredictable offensively. It can either run the classic weak armor set but with the 3 aforementioned moves as options, or a Dragon Dance 3 attacks set with Weak Armor or Rock Head, which makes it really hard to guess what's coming. On top of that, the metagame also got friendlier towards it. Diglett lost Groundium-Z, Snivy, Foonguss, Mienfoo and Staryu are no more, reducing its check list to Timburr, Mudbray (which only comes in once if it has Body Press) and the broken-looking Corsola. I've tried to find answers from LC UU, and I've only found Pumpkaboo-Super (which can still get oblirated by Head Smash or a lucky Rock Blast) and Hippopotas. Corphish and Timburr can revenge kill it with priority though, but Mach Punch doesn't do that much without a defense drop and Corphish's best set looks to be the Jetless Dragon Dance set this gen. The only current drawback Onix has is that it is weak to Trapinch and Scarf Gothita, but I predict those two to be banned pretty quickly. So I think once something happens to the two broken trappers (or even before tbh, it can get around it), there should be an Onix suspect test or a council vote.

:Mudbray:
Mudbray didn't learn any new move, but like Onix a lot of its threats are gone, which are the same I mentioned about Onix. Mudbray has a really good stats and will now be very coveted as an Onix answer. It also switches way easier on Pawniard and Timburr, since they both lost Knock Off and since Timburr has few reasons to run Ice Punch now. Like Onix, unless we try to run niche mons like Pumpkaboo, Gossifleur and Koffing, it's hard to fit a reliable switch-in to it on a team, but unlike Onix, it's easier to outspeed and revenge kill, but it also way stronger. I think we can give it more time than Onix before having any type of tiering decision about it, and maybe if the answers I mentioned become popular, or once Grassy Surge Grookey gets released, it will be easier to deal with and healthy in the metagame.

:Gastly:
Gastly lost a lot of competition as a fast special attacker, and seems to be the best in that category. With the removal of Pursuit, there are really less downsides to using Gastly. But with the removal of Hidden Power, it also got nerfed. It is now way harder to damage Pawniard, with Thunderbolt being its best coverage option against it, and Ferroseed is now able to come in once on Shadow Ball, without having to fear Hidden Power. Your typical Gastly set would be LO 3 attacks Will-O-Wisp or another coverage option over W-O-W. This set has very few answers but is also very frail. Gastly also has the option of Dynamaxing to boost its special attack with Max-Sludge Wave, but it is important to keep in mind that it has only 90 BP. So like Mudbray, I don't think it's unmanageable right now and I think we can let the metagame develops with it, if the average speed drastically drops, making it hard to revenge kill or if we have enough tools to pivot into it, revenge kill it and pressure it enough to prevent it from doing much damage.

Thanks for reading and I hope the council will do a great job at dealing with these mons. To summarise I think that, based on my analysis of the metagame :
:Sneasel:Sneasel,:Swirlix:Swirlix,:Cutiefly:Cutiefly and Sinistea need to be on the initial ban list;
:Gothita:Gothita,:Trapinch:Trapinch,:Wingull:Wingull,:Corsola:Galarian Corsola and:Onix:Onix need to be looked at by the council a few weeks after the metagame is available and make a tiering decision, and if needed look at them again in the future;
:Drifloon:Drifloon and:Vulpix:Vulpix seem healthy for the pre-pokemon home metagame but once it gets released they need to be looked at again,
:FarfetchGalarian Farfetch'd,:Mudbray:Mudbray and:Gastly:Gastly could end up too strong for the metagame but can be kept for a bit to see how the metagame develops around them.
 
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With LC Ekans Draft coming soon I think it is really important to take a look at the broken stuff and quickly remove the mons that are without much doubt broken. Let's first look at the returning LC Ubers : Sneasel, Swirlix, Cutiefly, Gothita, Trapinch, Wingull, Drifloon, Vulpix

:Sneasel:
It just lost Pursuit but otherwise it's the same it has ever been so it should stay in LC Ubers, there is no point in testing it.

:Swirlix:
It lost Belly Drum so it got a bit nerfed but apparently it wasn't even its stronger set and it also gets sticky web so it could be tested but I think we can safely keep it in LC Ubers.

:Cutiefly:
It lost Hidden Power but I don't think it's a nerf at all because the two best steel types don't even resist its stabs. It can run Sticky Web, Quiver Dance 3 attacks (Bug Buzz Moonblast Psychic), Quiver Dance Baton Pass which all seem very hard to prepare against, especially the Quiver Dance baton pass one which is absurd, so I don't think there's much point testing it, even if Baton Pass gets banned.

:Gothita:
It was very quickly banned last generation but it was allowed in ORAS, so I think it should be tested. The scarf sets seems really good in a very offensive looking metagame. It can punish heavily on any Double Switch, Revenge Kill or U-Turn/Volt Switch. It traps Timburr, Onix, Mareanie, Wingull and even Vullaby and Mudbray with a bit of chip damage. Basically, any mon that is weak to either Psychich, Thunderbolt or Energy Ball (or simply a mon that doesn't resist Psychic and that is not so bulky). It can also trap a bulky mon (or any mon really) like Spritzee or Ferroseed to give its choice scarf. Its main drawback was that it could get Pursuit trapped right after it trapped the threat it wanted to remove, but that's not the case anymore. Pawniard also lost Knock Off so now it doesn't even have to fear giving it a free Knock Off. It can also run a Bulky Set with Calm Mind Psychic Thunderbolt Rest but in such an offensive-looking metagame and given that some of the best defensive mons are now Ferroseeed, Corsola-Galar and Frillish, it finds a harder time setting up, letting only Koffing, Mareanie, Spritzee and Timburr giving it a setup opportunity (which got worse imo). It has drawbacks though, it can give free setup opportunities to mons such as Scraggy, Onix, Drifloon, Vullaby and Galarian Ponyta. But I think this can be fixed in the teambuilder and it seems like it can trap many threats in a game with basic plays like double switching it on an Onix for example, switching in with its decent bulk or revenge killing. It doesn't seem like an absurd force in the metagame like the aforementioned but I think there needs to be a council vote very quickly after testing it for 1-2 weeks.

:Trapinch:
This mon got hugely buffed : it now has acces to First Impression. It is now not only able to successfully trap many threats but also revenge kill threats with its powerful priority. To give you an idea, its first impression is stronger than Timburr's mach punch. Its Pawniard and Ponyta match-ups got very easy since Pawniard lost knock off and Ponyta lost its ability to power through it with a Z-Flare Blitz (though regular Ponyta it isn't available yet). With 236 defense EVs it can switch on Onix and kill it with Giga Drain. It can also run a bit more speed and Superpower to finish off a weakened Ferroseed, and can even surprise a Mudbray bit Dynamaxing and 2HKO it with Max-Giga Drain. What's even better about it is that it is even kinda difficult to revenge kill, because of the absence of Foonguss, Mienfoo, Staryu and Staryu. This mon got even better than it was in Gen 7 and like Gothita I think it needs to be council voted very quickly after a few weeks of testing it.

:Wingull:
Some may say that the removal of nerfed it, but on the opposite I think Dynamax fits it even more than Z-moves. With a Z-move it was able to fire off a strong Supersonic Skystrike with perfect accuracy, but now it can boost its speed, setup rain, hit even harder than supersonic skystrike with rain boosted max geyser, or simply with a life orb boosted max move. It can even heal itself with Rain Dish a have a more decent bulk with an Eviolite, whereas Wingull had to hold a Flynium-Z. It has very few checks, the best one being Water Absorb Chinchou, which can be trapped by Diglett. Spedef Frillish, Spritzee and Corsola could do the job, but they have to fear Knock Off + Dynamaxing. It is hard to switch it in, but once it comes in it is very hard to stop. That said, with an eviolite and a good prediction, you can switch it on Galarian Farfetch'd, Mudbray, Timburr, Drilbur and Cufant, and with its huge speed, and strong stabs, it can easily revenge kill a lot of threats. Just like I said for the two previous one, I think action needs to be taken quickly.

:Drifloon:
Drifloon lost a big element of what got it banned from ORAS and SM : Recycle. Drifloon is now no longer able to stay in eternally on the field and wait until the opposing Pawniard or Vullaby gets worn down. Unlike the other ghost types, it didn't learn Strength Sap to make up for it. Though I think Drifloon can still be good with a set without Recycle, which would be Shadow Ball/Hex Thunderbolt/Acrobatics Will-O-Wisp Substitute. It can still be pretty annoying, but for a shorter time, and since it doesn't get much switch-in opportunities, this will hurt it a lot. Its ability to burn Vullaby, Pawniard and Onix will be interesting, but I don't think it should get banned or even suspect tested. It should thus be kept in the metagame until Pokemon Home gets released.

:Vulpix:
Vulpix was at its strongest last gen along with Bellsprout which was a really strong Z-user, but now that only Vulpix made it in the new games and that the only good Sun sweeper is Oddish, which lost access to hidden power, it is looking much healthier. Vulpix gained weather ball and Memento, which makes its choice scarf set better, but Oddish only has his two stabs, which makes way easier to wall with steel types, especially Ferroseed. I think Oddish would either run an offensive set which can overpower checks like Pawniard, Cufant and Vullaby by putting them to sleep, but is completely unable to damage Ferroseed, so it would need to be paired with a lure; or a bulkier set that makes use of Strength Sap to use it as the team's Fitghing check (with optionally more defense and HP). Depending on Ferroseed's viability Sun might be good, might be bad, but I think it can stay in the meta until Bulbasaur comes.

So that's it for the older LC Ubers. Now let's take a look at the new mons that could end up in the ban list.

:Corsola:
Galarian Corsola has a massive bulk, paired with moves that fit it perfectly in Will-O-Wisp, Strenght Sap, Stealth Rock and Calm Mind. It can even put pressure offensively with its great coverage moves like Ice Beam, to hit Vullaby and Mudbray, or Earth Power to hit Pawniard. Its absurb bulky allows it to switch on any type of threat without Knock Off, here are some calcs :
196+ Atk Mudbray Earthquake vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola : 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Onix Head Smash vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Zen Headbutt vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Thunder Punch vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 5-6 (20 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
116+ Atk Water Bubble Dewpider Liquidation vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 8-12 (32 - 48%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236 Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. Eviolite 196 HP / 196+ Def Corsola: 15-20 (60 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Sinistea:
I think there's not much to say about this one, Shell Smash + Baton Pass is just extremely overpowered. You can pair it with Power Trip Pancham, Stored Power Ponyta-Galar, Mudbray or any mon and get an easy sweep with any of them. The question is more about baton pass. Do we ban Baton Pass or do we ban mons that use Baton Pass ? I think banning mons that are broken with Baton Pass is easier, which seem to be Sinistea and Cutiefly at the moment, because I think they have the potential to be overpowered even without Baton Pass anyway, so banning them instead of banning baton pass hits two birds with a single rock. On top of that, with Baton Pass being a TR now, may mons have access to it, so we may see cool strategies with Baton Pass appearing, like in ADV, and if it ends up being unhealthy, we can still ban it later.

:Farfetch
The latter two are very likely to end up banned but Farfetch'd is more debatable. It has huge attack stat of 95 allowing it to be a very strong breaker with Swords Dance. On top of that, it has perfect coverage with Knock Off and Poison Jab, reducing its checks to only a few. To make up for the average speed, it can run a choice scarf set that makes use of its scrappy ability and raw attack stat that can still sweep without any boost. Finally, a variant to the SD Set could be a set with Brave Bird over Poison Jab or SD, to get a speed boost when Dynamaxed. The best answers right now are Wingull, Koffing, Mareanie and Galarian Ponyta, but as I said Wingull could very likely end up banned, Koffing wasn't a defensive staple last gen and while it may get better I don't think it'll be higher than A- and still has to fear +2 Brave Bird without Eviolite, Mareanie can get trapped by Diglett, especially if it gets Knocked Off, and Galarian Ponyta fears Knock Off. But Farfetch'd has obviously a problem with speed, 16 isn't that amazing so if the metagame ends up being really offensive, it may not be that amazing, but even then it can still run a choice scarf set, and with the loss of Abra, Staryu and potentially Wingull, the metagame could be slow enough to have limited revenge killers to Farfetch'd. I think this mon needs to be in the watch list, but it doesn't seem as busted as the ones I previously mentioned, so I think we can keep it a bit longer to see how the metagame adapts to it.

And finally, some mons that were fine last generation may end up broken because of the buffs they got or the favorable metagame changes.

:Onix:
First is Onix which looks really threatening this gen, for many reasons. First it has become way more reliable as a Vullaby answer, since it doesn't need to fear HP Grass anymore. But most importantly, it got really strong offensively. In Gen 7, Onix was very predictable, as it had very few options.
It had the Eviolite or Groundium-Z Weak Armor set with Explosion, Protect or Endure as the last move, or the Sturdy Juice set, which was almost only seen on Webs so it wasn't really a surprise. But now, it gained access to Body Press, Dragon Dance and Head Smash, which make it way more unpredictable offensively. It can either run the classic weak armor set but with the 3 aforementioned moves as options, or a Dragon Dance 3 attacks set with Weak Armor or Rock Head, which makes it really hard to guess what's coming. On top of that, the metagame also got friendlier towards it. Diglett lost Groundium-Z, Snivy, Foonguss, Mienfoo and Staryu are no more, reducing its check list to Timburr, Mudbray (which only comes in once if it has Body Press) and the broken-looking Corsola. I've tried to find answers from LC UU, and I've only found Pumpkaboo-Super (which can still get oblirated by Head Smash or a lucky Rock Blast) and Hippopotas. Corphish and Timburr can revenge kill it with priority though, but Mach Punch doesn't do that much without a defense drop and Corphish's best set looks to be the Jetless Dragon Dance set this gen. The only current drawback Onix has is that it is weak to Trapinch and Scarf Gothita, but I predict those two to be banned pretty quickly. So I think once something happens to the two broken trappers (or even before tbh, it can get around it), there should be an Onix suspect test or a council vote.

:Mudbray:
Mudbray didn't learn any new move, but like Onix a lot of its threats are gone, which are the same I mentioned about Onix. Mudbray has a really good stats and will now be very coveted as an Onix answer. It also switches way easier on Pawniard and Timburr, since they both lost Knock Off and since Timburr has few reasons to run Ice Punch now. Like Onix, unless we try to run niche mons like Pumpkaboo, Gossifleur and Koffing, it's hard to fit a reliable switch-in to it on a team, but unlike Onix, it's easier to outspeed and revenge kill, but it also way stronger. I think we can give it more time than Onix before having any type of tiering decision about it, and maybe if the answers I mentioned become popular, or once Grassy Surge Grookey gets released, it will be easier to deal with and healthy in the metagame.

:Gastly:
Gastly lost a lot of competition as a fast special attacker, and seems to be the best in that category. With the removal of Pursuit, there are really less downsides to using Gastly. But with the removal of Hidden Power, it also got nerfed. It is now way harder to damage Pawniard, with Thunderbolt being its best coverage option against it, and Ferroseed is now able to come in once on Shadow Ball, without having to fear Hidden Power. Your typical Gastly set would be LO 3 attacks Will-O-Wisp or another coverage option over W-O-W. This set has very few answers but is also very frail. Gastly also has the option of Dynamaxing to boost its special attack with Max-Sludge Wave, but it is important to keep in mind that it has only 90 BP. So like Mudbray, I don't think it's unmanageable right now and I think we can let the metagame develops with it, if the average speed drastically drops, making it hard to revenge kill or if we have enough tools to pivot into it, revenge kill it and pressure it enough to prevent it from doing much damage.

Thanks for reading and I hope the council will do a great job at dealing with these mons. To summarise I think that, based on my analysis of the metagame :
:Sneasel:Sneasel,:Swirlix:Swirlix,:Cutiefly:Cutiefly and Sinistea need to be on the initial ban list;
:Gothita:Gothita,:Trapinch:Trapinch,:Wingull:Wingull,:Corsola:Galarian Corsola and:Onix:Onix need to be looked at by the council a few weeks after the metagame is available and make a tiering decision, and if needed look at them again in the future;
:Drifloon:Drifloon and:Vulpix:Vulpix seem healthy for the pre-pokemon home metagame but once it gets released they need to be looked at again,
:FarfetchGalarian Farfetch'd,:Mudbray:Mudbray and:Gastly:Gastly could end up too strong for the metagame but can be kept for a bit to see how the metagame develops around them.
Just wanted to say that Baton Pass is already banned in Little Cup in this generation, and you mentioned it on Cutiefly and Sinistea.
 

KSG

your favorite player's favorite player
is a Tiering Contributor
I think we all knew this ban was inevitable. There just aren't reliable methods of breaking Corsola in the meta - Gastly can kill but can't switch in, and physical Vullaby and Pawniard can't output enough damage to beat Corsola without being Strength Sapped and crippled by burn (the latter especially while lacking Knock Off). The only reliable answer to Corsola was NP Vullaby, which did set up in Corsola's face with ease. There was just no way a defensive mon like that could be a healthy presence in the meta.

What I worry about now is that Corsola was the most effective check to all manners of dynamax chicanery, and that its absence is going to show us how broken the mechanic can truly become. Corsola could whittle down pretty much any physical dynamaxer through burn and Strength Sap, and it is one of the few answers to dynamax G-Farfetch'd in the meta right now. It seems more likely to me that dynamax offense will get better rather than worse as the meta develops, and this is a potentially-critical domino.
 

KSG

your favorite player's favorite player
is a Tiering Contributor
I've played about fifty games of SwSh LC so far, some with no-dynamax gentlemen's agreements and some without. These are the mons I think are currently the five best in the tier, with the stipulation that G-Corsola was banned right before I posted:

1. G-Corsola
- It's already banned. We all know how potent of a defensive mon Corsola was and is - it effortlessly shuts down even Pawniard and physical Vullaby through the combination of Strength Sap and burn, and can in turn win the game via CM and Hex. This mon is probably not coming back, but I think we might miss it if dynamax users go nuts in the coming weeks.

2. Cutiefly
- Still an extremely good mon, but the lack of Hidden Power Fire to break Ferroseed and Cufant (lol) hurts it. I have not seen anybody run Bug Buzz and rarely find myself clicking Psychic (there's a lack of Mareanie right now) so Energy Ball might be the smart second attack choice. Cutie has tremendous utility in 1) being a 19 speeder, 2) setting webs, and 3) potentially sweeping with Quiver Dance. I'm not sure it's broken yet, but it will surely be suspected.

3. Trapinch
- Trapinch has gotten even better tools for trapping and picking off key threats this generation. The addition of First Impression is the most notable one, as it allows Pinch to revenge kill G-Ponyta easily and pick off weakened sweepers like Shellder or Vullaby. Superpower sets also let Pinch trap and kill Ferroseed and Munchlax, a big help to offensive ghosts like Gastly. Pinch also maintains its ability to trap and kill key threats like Pawniard and Onix. The challenge for Pinch is that dynamaxing can make it very difficult to survive Pawniard on the switch-in, and this can often force you to expend your own dynamax or sac Pinch.

4. Pawniard
- Pawniard lost two of its best tools in Knock Off and Pursuit and is still as crucial as ever thanks to the deluge of ghosts. Dynamax allows Pawniard to survive and kill trappers like Diglett and Pinch. SD sets seem to be the best variants right now in part thanks to that dynamax bulk, and the current presence of G-Fetch'd over Timburr makes it a more potent offensive threat. Pawniard will only get better from here, should it get Knock Off back from Home.

5. G-Farfetch'd
- G-Farfetch'd is the best abuser of dynamax in the tier at the moment and is an extremely potent offensive threat with a lot of utility. Its middling bulk and speed leave some to be desired, but rest assured that this is an extremely strong mon that can break through even Mareanie and Spritzee with Swords Dance boosts, Knock Off, and Brave Bird. Dynamax allows it to become the most potent sweeper in the meta by boosting both its attack and speed. It even gets Defog! This is basically LC Hawlucha.

Here are some mons I find intriguing early in the meta:

- Corphish: Corphish is sick. It's a destructive wallbreaker that can even kill Ferroseed via Knock into Superpower. SD sets can mash any defensive core, and keeping Knock Off in its moveset is valuable for wearing down those cores. Aqua Jet is also among the best priority in the meta right now, especially with the prevalence of DD Onix. Corphish makes a water-resist crucial on any team.

- Spritzee: Fat-boosting CM Spritzee can tank a lot of stuff and win games right now. Defensive Spritzee is one of the best two answers to G-Fetch'd (the other being Mareanie) and Fairy-type offense in general is potent.
 
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fran17

I COULD BE BANNED!
Hoothoot @ Berry Juice
Ability: Tinted Lens
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Def / 228 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Agility
- Heat Wave
- Hurricane

didnt play too much because of uni and work but i found this set very interesting, hoothoot has the bulk to get a boost with NP and agility, especially because of BJ and the lack of many koff user. +2 hurri with tinted lens actually does a lot to resists and heatwave gives general coverage. i dont expect it to be a ran B+/A- mon but can be an annoying mon to face

Zigzagoon-Galar @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 196 Atk / 28 Def / 28 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Parting Shot
- Protect

alsothis zig setlooks funny. facade hits decently hard and parting shot gives a way to pivot out+koff spam is always nice

btw on the bans from gen7 imo sneasel, swirlix, cutiefly and gothita need to go, while all the other can be retested since they dont look problematic as they were before, maybe only trapinch. i wont speak about banning any of the new mons because i dont have much experience with them...
 

Stoward

Ah, you're finally awake
Gonna take a moment to talk about a threat that has somehow not been talked about here and that’s woobat

1574250197839.jpeg


Woobat @ Eviolite
Ability: Simple
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 12 Def / 236 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Stored Power
- Air Slash
- Heat Wave / Roost

This set is pretty self explanatory. Nasty Plot gives you a free +4, making Stored Power hit like a truck. Air Slash is to give you +2 speed when Dynamaxed. Heat Wave is for Pawniard, but I can imagine if you’re at +4, you probably do a chunk with Air Slash anyway and with Pawniard losing Knock Off and relying on sucker punch to hit you, Roost and Nasty Plot can help with 50/50s

When simple is put into the equation, this Pokémon becomes straight up broken. Being able to completely 6-0 teams that aren’t prepared to Dynamax and protect with their healthy Vullaby.

Apologies for the lack of replays - was not planning on posting here. I think this one says it well enough.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1013124659

Anyway. Until either Dynamax or Vullaby gets banned, go try it out and let me know how you go either using it or facing it.

Edit: Got a couple more replays.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1013746209 - All hax aside (not too sure if it is tho. This is 130 bp but picked psycho boost cos it's 140 by default) +4 236 SpA Woobat Psycho Boost vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 51-61 (204 - 244%) -- guaranteed OHKO) - this replay shows us that Pawniard isn't really a Woobat answer. Also the fact that Max Mindstorm summons psychic Terrain means that you can't even revenge kill it with Sucker Punch.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1013780837- This is just another showcase of Woobat doing Woobat things.

Edit 2: You can still Sucker Punch Woobat because it’s not grounded. After 3 years I still don’t know how terrains work
 
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KSG

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I've been playing around with Woobat tonight, and my conclusion is that flying types break dynamax the most severely. You absolutely cannot let Woobat get off a Nasty Plot without switching to something that will outspeed and kill it the next turn. Once Woobat gets off a Max Airstream, the only reliable answer is Pawniard, and otherwise you're forced to chip it with priority from the likes of Trapinch and Corphish. There's no reason not to spam Max Airstream, really, given that it boosts Stored Power's BP as well. Woobat frequently ends up in situations where it's at +4 Sp. Atk. and +6 Speed after dynamax, at which point Stored Power is a 220 BP stab coming off a 45 Sp. Atk. mon.

Woobat isn't the only mon that just wins games like this, though - Vullaby operates similarly, and while it doesn't have the breaking power of Woobat, it is much harder to kill or revenge thanks to its bulk with Eviolite. Vullaby destroys pretty much everything in the meta at +2 Sp. Atk. and dynamaxed, with Max Airstream allowing it to outspeed everything too. One thought here: while switching from Weak Armor to Overcoat limits Vullaby's ability to sweep without dynamax, removing the Weak Armor defense drops and the ability for your opponent to wear you down with priority. Overcoat +2 +2 Vullaby seems more-or-less unstoppable.

I don't have as much experience using Rufflet, but Rufflet's dynamax turns are close to unsurviveable - dynamax keeps Hustle's power boost but ignores its accuracy drop, meaning that you nuke pretty much anything while boosting your own speed and attack with your max moves. You're basically forced to pivot around Rufflet for three turns or run Weak Armor Onix to catch a Max Airstream and revenge kill. Weak Armor Onix is probably the least common of the three Onix abilities in use right now, but I expect that to change, maybe or maybe not because of Rufflet.

In summary, dynamax is an extremely centralizing mechanic that has narrow avenues for meaningful counterplay. If we can get rid of it, we should.
 

Camden

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You know what? I think Dynamaxing is broken in LC. I think it gives too much power to offensive Pokemon and we don't have enough defensive options to properly outplay it. I think Pokemon such as Rufflet, Farfetch'd, Woobat and Scraggy among others are too powerful once they get going and ruin the meta. In fact, we've considering banned Dynamax altogether, but I want to get as many thoughts as possible first. What does everyone here think of Dynamax? If you care even slightly about the future of LC, please speak up.
 

Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
I believe Dynamaxing is overall an unhealthy mechanic, especially in the context of current LC. We just don’t have enough defensive presence to counteract the offensive capabilities of Dynamax. Even if we did, you can’t phaze them out with moves like Dragon Tail or Roar, and they can’t be flinched either. The mechanic itself was just made in a way to be overpowered and it just doesn’t work in Smogon tiers (LC in particular). There’s just too much offensive power already and adding insult to injury definitely doesn’t help. If certain Dynamax moves didn’t boost Attack or Speed my opinion might change, but it just makes things like Vullaby and Woobat just stupidly powerful, so I think it would be in the best interest of the tier for Dynamax to go.
 
You know what? I think Dynamaxing is broken in LC. I think it gives too much power to offensive Pokemon and we don't have enough defensive options to properly outplay it. I think Pokemon such as Rufflet, Farfetch'd, Woobat and Scraggy among others are too powerful once they get going and ruin the meta. In fact, we've considering banned Dynamax altogether, but I want to get as many thoughts as possible first. What does everyone here think of Dynamax? If you care even slightly about the future of LC, please speak up.
I agree. Dynamax is way too strong
 

Merritt

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I firmly believe that even if Dynamaxing itself is not broken, then it breaks a large enough number of Pokemon that it becomes more desirable to ban the mechanic than to remove so many Pokemon from the metagame. Part of this, compared to OU, is that moves just flat out do more damage percentagewise at level 5 - even when you factor in Eviolite.

252 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mantyke: 28-36 (133.3 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mantyke: 300-352 (129.8 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mantyke: 204-240 (88.3 - 103.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

This means both the offensive and defensive potential of Dynamax drastically shifts in LC compared to OU - Dynamax is offensively more potent in LC while it's defensively less strong, making one of the commonly brought up ideas in the PR thread of using your own dynamax to counter enemy dynamaxes less feasible, as such options are liable to just end up being OHKOed or 2HKOed by the enemy dynamax Pokemon.

This doesn't mean the defensive side effects of Dynamax aren't potent in their own right. OHKOing a dynamaxed Pokemon is hard, and in turn gives more opportunity to the opponent to bring the offensive might of their dynamaxed mon to bear and begin to snowball over the enemy team.

Some people might try to compare Dynamax to Z moves from last gen, and honestly this is fairly accurate in my eyes. However, the issue is that Dynamax isn't comparable to things like Z Earthquake or Z Brave Bird. Instead, it's Z Conversion, a single opportunity to set up and steamroll the opponent's team with boosted bulk (though thankfully only temporarily but to an even greater extent that Porygon offered) and boosted moves. Even from the first turn of Dynamax, a huge number of moves are looking at nearly a 50% increase in base power, and a well planned Dynamax won't stop there but will continue to press this advantage by boosting sweeping potential further through either the raw effect of the Max Move (Poison/Fighting/Flying) or will support themselves even further through field effects (weather/terrain).

After having done a number of test games, I have to say that Dynamax is at the absolute least an incredibly centralizing mechanic, as very few games have not ultimately revolved around which player got a chance to abuse Dynamax better.
 

Fiend

perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
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I think I've already annoyed Quote with my insistence that LC is unable to deal with dmax, more so than any other tier may be able to. The stat compression that makes LC so different leaves us with limited options. The level 5 states make everything disproportionately strong and unfortunately leaves most Pokemon with shallow defenses and limited HP. Dmax effectively exploits this, making the middling defensive capabilities of the tier shamefully incapable of managing. Even with the ability to try and defensively utilize dmax to prevent an opposing steamroll, the offensive capabilities of the tier are too much for this yet too little too in any way punish an opposing dmax Pokemon.

While I never got around to this, I was going to present a large group of "uncompetitive/broken/get this out of the tier" pokemon that would probably be fair game if not for dmax mechanics. Scraggy, Vullaby, Woobat, Rufflet, and G-Farfetch'd are unquestionably broken when dmaxed, with Gastly and Wingull being not too far behind for many. I haven't even wanted to test with Oddish, Corphish, or Dewpider because while these are probably also broken in combination with dmax, the aforementioned group has little to no downsides. I genuinely do not think this tier has credibility with dmax around as it just suffocates all other options, and honestly seems to diminish most impacts of skill.

Dmax does not add anything to the tier. There are no restrictions or choice which must be considered prior to the match. Instead, it focuses on short term interactions and stacking a select few Pokemon on teams in order to actually have some counterplay against what little we have discovered now. There is little which dissuades me from advocating for its removal from LC, even if it is the generational gimmick. I feel that the interactions of the tier with dmax are entirely apparent as negative to anyone paying attention, and removing dmax does not openly conflict with stated goals of tiering policy.
 
You know what? I think Dynamaxing is broken in LC. I think it gives too much power to offensive Pokemon and we don't have enough defensive options to properly outplay it. I think Pokemon such as Rufflet, Farfetch'd, Woobat and Scraggy among others are too powerful once they get going and ruin the meta. In fact, we've considering banned Dynamax altogether, but I want to get as many thoughts as possible first. What does everyone here think of Dynamax? If you care even slightly about the future of LC, please speak up.
I haven't played many games in the new gen, roughly 25-30. But from what I've played, the whole Dynamaxing mechanic is an undesirable mechanic in my opinion.
 

Ampha

A king is a king for his people
So my opinion on dynamax is like this rn: It's a retarded mechanic which is stupidly broken for LC (and higher tiers ofc), the fact that your HP doubles coupled with setup sweepers is just dumb af, gonna talk a bit of all abusers I found out atm

:chinchou: :corphish: :shellder: :wingull: / :squirtle:
Water types can abuse dynamax pretty hard with Auto rain being set due to it, powering with its powerful stabs and etc, makes rain really annoying to deal with
:onix: :trapinch: :drilbur: :dwebble: :diglett: :mudbray:
since all those run similar coverage I will talk about them as one, rock stab can set auto sand which all of them except Mudbray can abuse in some way, DM eq also rises their SpD which can be valuable vs special threats like spritzee or even some counter, plus Mudbray can take advantage of that with its ability, Stamina to boost both its defs and be extremely difficult to kill while firing strong attacks
:chinchou:
Only viable electric type, altho that fact is a thing, it can boost both of its stabs and be a offensive menace due to rain + electric terrain being gross to switch into
:spritzee: :cutiefly:
altho spritzee is know to be our beloved Fighting check and everything, with its CM set spritzee can abuse of Boosts along with Misty terrain(No status) and become extremely thicc and difficult to kill, Cutie abuses it due to Dmoves powering its offensive stats even further
:ponyta:
Altho Pony isnt on game, it is by far the only and best fire type abuser of this, Sun boosted flare blitz hurt even on me, along with its strong high horsepower on onix
(I was gonna say scorbunny but this thing sucks until it gets Libero)
:rufflet: :vullaby: :wingull: :woobat: ":farfetchd:"
The bird and the "bird" can abuse this thing due to Dmoves boosting their offensive STAB along with speed, This coupled with Rufflet and fetch'd's ability to setup and win, Wingull's ability to set Rain AND boost its speed(with no miss hurricane) and Woobat's nukable moves make it prob the best or one of the best types to abuse dyna
:gastly:
Wasnt gonna do ghost or poison but Gastly has its special placing due to D Poison + either Life orb or scarf which can make it a even more threatning mon on SS metagame
:woobat: :ponyta: galar
Both can abuse it on similar ways, Ponyta can pass through its common checks such as pawn with D mystical fire and fairy one for vulla along with calm mind, while Woobat can do it with Heat wave + Psychic ( + Air slash) combo'ing boosting its attacks to massive levels

So yeah, That's all of them basically, most of them become extremely overpowered after the first turn of dyna
 
I am viewing it a bit broader than just LC, however I don't see any value to keeping this mechanic other than "it's also in the main series games, and we try to stay true to in-game as much as possible". It's a forcefull mechanic that turns a large part of the metagame into a gamewinning threat capable of snowballing into an unwinnable situation right after, even with dynamax still left on your side.

A bunch of pokemon like Shellder, Gastly, Farfetch'd-Galar, even Onix can go from a strong(but managable) to deal with threat down to outright impossible to come into even on a resisted attack thanks to the snowballing Dynamax can provide, either in speed boosts, physical attack ups, weather, special attack ups etc. Are we seposed to just ban all those because gamefreak introduced a mechanic that is this forcefull to play against? You can't flinch, protect or pivot to outlast it, now you have to decide on taking a hit from a pokemon with the most useless mon on your team, likely sacking it WHILST the dynamax pokemon set up on it, just so you could revenge kill it with a near dedicated check on your team. You are at almost any turn at a practical set up disadvantage thanks to the absurd phase at which dynamax sets itself up, the health boost on that makes things only harder to feasably deal with without just going negative 2 mons into a slowly losing endgame.
 

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