Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

I'm probably either alone in this opinion or at least a part of a very small minority, but I would rather have Goth (and Pinch) stay in LC.

I don't really feel like I have the time to write up a long and fleshed out articulation of my argument before a council vote, nor do I feel that even if I did present such a post, that it would meaningfully affect the outcome of the vote. But basically my argument rests on the belief that: a) there is satisfactory counterplay to trapping/ways to abuse your opponent's use of trappers, and that b) LC metas that have had trappers (specifically Goth and Pinch) such as ORAS have been significantly more diverse and healthy metagames than those that did not, SM. Admittedly, the second argument comes entirely from my biased perception of ORAS LC, a meta that I was able to play and experience throughout its entire lifespan, vs SM LC, something I only experienced the final 7ish months of and generally had much more negative experiences with. However, I feel that there is likely evidence to support my diversity argument via usage stats from high-level play from both generations.
 

Altariel von Sweep

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Well, time to put my cents into this discussion.


I think there is enough explanation about how oppresive Gastly is right now, but I want to reiterate it. Gastly has become the premier wallbreaker in the metagame thanks to the departure of Abra, the loss of Pursuit and a pretty low distribution of Knock Off on relevant Pokemon, making it able to stand as a threat on many teams. There are no solid checks to Gastly, as it can choose what to use as coverage and blast easily through non Eviolite Pokemon, as well as OHKO some of them. Right now some of the answers would be Ferroseed and Pawniard, but the recent rediscovery of Fire Punch has made it far a bigger threat than expected, 2HKOing both of them with no effort. With no Pursuit around and the blessing of being a Ghost-type, Gastly is untrappable by neither of the current trappers in Gothita and Trapinch, leaving really narrow counterplay to it, where Scarf Pokemon come into action but fail to do so sometimes. Another way to deal around it is priority such as Aqua Jet Corphish, Sucker Punch Pawniard to say some, but many teams don't want to run Pawniard always due to the commonality of Trapinch being a great help to it, thus discouraging its use and letting Gastly loose. It can't even revenge kill itself, as Gastly can also run Sucker Punch in certain situations where the opposing Gastly is Scarf to revenge kill it.

Something I wanted to add, but goes separately from its traits, is how easily can Gastly blow holes with only a bit of support. Stealth Rock is enough to ensure many of the 2HKOs it gets into OHKOs, such as Spritzee and Mareanie. Considering that, Hazard spam enables Gastly's wallbreaking abilities to a whole new level, where teambuilding gets more restrictive than it already is. In Webs, revenge killing it is impossible unless your name is Scarf Vullaby or you have crippled it a bit to be in range of powerful priority moves. Otherwise, you are going to sack a Pokemon in order to beat it.

So yeah. I think it should have been gone by now.



Gothita in a same fashion benefits from Pursuit being gone, as well as the bad distribution of Knock Off being a much better trapper than it was on SM. It can use its old and good Scarf set to trap threats such as Mareanie, Timburr, Galarian Farfetch'd and Onix for some Pokemon like Vullaby, Water Spam with users such as DD Onix, SD Corphish, Wingull and Remoraid (which I will go on later), and Quiver Dance Cutiefly. CM Charm Rest Psyshock are still fire, being able to remove more defensive threats like Spritzee, Ferroseed, Mareanie if your team lacks of good answers against those. Most importantly, due to the commonality of Trapinch, Eviolite Protect sets are a satisfactory answer to countertrapping, since you can halt any try of getting severely damaged by First Impression and then remove Trapinch without any problem.

On Trapinch's fashion, the fact that many of the relevant SM Pokemon in Abra, Mienfoo, Staryu and Foongus are gone, and Knock Off has a less wide distribution made it a better trapper than it was before. First Impression is an impressive revenge killing tool to trap any Pokemon that has been weakened, and being able to trap Pawniard now that it hasn't got Knock Off in pre Home meta, as well as Onix prevailing, means a lot to many of the Pokemon that get benefitted by Trapinch's doing, be it Gastly, Nasty Plot Vullaby, and more setup sweepers.

Going on about both trappers' relevancy, though Gothita may trap much more threats than Trapinch does, but Trapinch is a more consistent Pokemon to send into the threats it has to trap, I'm with Joltage when I say: I don't see neither of them getting out of Little Cup anytime soon. Both of them trappers complement each other into the search for effective counterplay against trapping by using sets or coverage options that can assure their effectiveness in the trapper vs trapper matchup. In fact, banning either of them would result in one of them being a much more prevalent threat to the point where you would have to run other Pokemon in order to improve your counterplay against the benefitted Pokemon by each trapper. While I acknowledge Gothita may be gone soon, this is the way I'm feeling about it.


Moody not boosting Evassiveness meant that Remoraid can get massive boosts thanks to Moody's legality, which coupled with good Speed and offensive stats can be a problem if the boosts are helpful. Right now, Protect + Substitute can assure you enough turns to get benefittial boosts to break through the metagame with Water STAB + coverage between Fire and Psychic, mostly Fire in a metagame with Gothita running around since it can trap Mareanie for it.

Adding more importance to Moody Protect + Substitute, Remoraid can outspeed common Pokemon such as Pawniard, Galarian Farfetch'd, and the defensive threats by protecting itself and grabbing boosts on the way. Now here are some options of what can happen:

1. Defensive boosts. Remoraid is able to set a Substitute up against certain threats and even take some strong hits such as Moonblast from Cutiefly, or Night Slash from Pawniard, both after Stealth Rock, continuing its boosting snowball with no danger prevailing.

2. Speed boosts. As mentioned above, Remoraid's 17 Speed sets it in a good benchmark outspeeding important threats, but getting a Speed boost makes Remoraid unable to be revenge killed by outspeeding everything known in the metagame. Not even priority can get it easily, since it can set another Substitute if it has enough health and thus keep getting boosts.

3. Attacking boosts. After a single boost, Remoraid is able to 2HKO bulkier threats and resists such as Spritzee, Corphish and Mareanie after Stealth Rock, and turn the 2HKO it usually gets into OHKOs on Pokemon such as Pawniard and Timburr.

I'm not sure whether I am in favor of or against banning it given all the information I have, I'd like more people to discuss it.
 
Gothita and remoraid are hella disgusting at the moment but i see stuff that can at least soft check gast -> vulla mudbray bjuice and solid check as lax, there's also possibility to lure gast with uncommon scarf since his bulk is horrible.
So i would prefer to wait before quickbanning gastly
 
Hey, I don't write posts often, but I think this is urgent for the meta. As mentioned, remoraid, goth and gastly are all on the chopping block, which I think are all good decisions, however I would like to raise that another moody mon should be looked at. This is Snorunt.

I don't need to explain what moody does, so the reason I find Snorunt problematic is due to its movepool. This is the best set in my opinion (I have used it once)

Snorunt @ Eviolite
Ability: Moody
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Def / 196 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Disable
- Frost Breath
- Protect

This set makes the most of moody, being able to disrupt the enemy's attacks and get set up. The only issue for this set is the ice coverage, however sans for pawniard and cufant, lc doesn't seem to have any decent ice resists, meaning Snorunt can get out of control. Overall, I think moody is a broken ability in lc and should be looked at as a whole.
 

Berks

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Hey, I don't write posts often, but I think this is urgent for the meta. As mentioned, remoraid, goth and gastly are all on the chopping block, which I think are all good decisions, however I would like to raise that another moody mon should be looked at. This is Snorunt.

I don't need to explain what moody does, so the reason I find Snorunt problematic is due to its movepool. This is the best set in my opinion (I have used it once)

Snorunt @ Eviolite
Ability: Moody
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Def / 196 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Disable
- Frost Breath
- Protect

This set makes the most of moody, being able to disrupt the enemy's attacks and get set up. The only issue for this set is the ice coverage, however sans for pawniard and cufant, lc doesn't seem to have any decent ice resists, meaning Snorunt can get out of control. Overall, I think moody is a broken ability in lc and should be looked at as a whole.
I'd love to jump onto this wagon! Though there are certainly a slew of good ice resists in every water-type and plenty of strong fighting types, if snorunt gets lucky with moody boosts (and this time I really do mean lucky, because this has no skill involved whatsoever), it can come in on one pokemon like trapinch or basically anything and then get snowballing to a point where even a timburr can't take it out.

Now I'm sure I didn't play it correctly on every turn, but this was silly
 
So I've been playing with a team that has Sinistea running Shell Smash for the past few days, but all of a sudden Showdown is telling me "Sinistea's move Shell Smash is not available in generation 8." Could anyone tell me what changed and why?
 

Merritt

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So I've been playing with a team that has Sinistea running Shell Smash for the past few days, but all of a sudden Showdown is telling me "Sinistea's move Shell Smash is not available in generation 8." Could anyone tell me what changed and why?
Sinistea is genderless, and due to the move reminder being nerfed in Gen 8 so that it no longer allows a Pokemon to learn future level up moves, genderless and male only Pokemon are restricted at level 5 to only being able to obtain level up moves obtained at or below level 5 on cart.
 
Sinistea is genderless, and due to the move reminder being nerfed in Gen 8 so that it no longer allows a Pokemon to learn future level up moves, genderless and male only Pokemon are restricted at level 5 to only being able to obtain level up moves obtained at or below level 5 on cart.
Ah, I see. That's a shame. Thanks for the explanation :)
 
It's been a long time since I've posted on Smogon regarding LC, but Gen 8 has been a huge help in shaking the rust off of this account.

First off, thanks for banning Dynamax! The meta is a lot healthier for it, and I think it will continue to be in the long run, as well.

Second, I've been seeing a lot of talk about Gastly lately, and I agree that it's incredibly strong and will most likely need to get banned so that balance teams can stand a chance (or any team archetype that can't deal with Gastly, anyways, there's quite a few). While I don't have any additional arguments to add to the discussion that others haven't already made, I want to highlight a set on a Pokemon that is pretty underrated right now, in my opinion, which just happens to also kick Gastly's ass sometimes.


Pumpkaboo-Small @ Eviolite
Ability: Frisk
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 68 Atk / 36 Def / 164 SpA / 228 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp

Pumpkaboo is a unique spinblocker that has the added benefit of countering Drilbur, arguably the best spinner in the meta at the moment. There's just enough Atk investment to OHKO Gastly with Shadow Sneak after rocks 94% of the time (Gastly can't OHKO back if it's running Sucker Punch), and Giga Drain 2HKOs Drilbur and OHKOs non-Sturdy Onix (+1 Head Smash only OHKOs 6% of the time). With its typing and coverage, it easily scares out spinners like Drilbur and Gossifleur, allowing you to score burns on key switch-ins like Pawniard, Vullaby, and Farfetch'd-G.

I wouldn't call this set A+ material, and it definitely loses to Nasty Plot Vullaby (what doesn't?), but I think Pumpkaboo has a place in the meta right now. Perhaps with Gastly gone it can be even more viable.

I was going to post this earlier before it was announced that Sinistea would be losing Shell Smash and had a whole thing about it, rip.
 

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I'd like to note that the council has decided to vote on Moody as a whole instead of simply Remoraid. The ability is proving to be problematic for LC despite only having two abusers.

I guess since I'm here I'll quickly comment on the other candidates:

- Gastly is absolutely disgusting in this meta. As expected, a metagame without Pursuit means that an already powerful offensive Pokemon becomes even more potent as Gastly can freely throw out attacks with virtually no reliable switch-ins. I've seen Berry Juice Pawniard pop up recently as a dedicated check for it but even that isn't the most reliable. If Pawn takes any chip prior to dealing with Gastly it stops being able to check it, especially if it has to start dealing with Sucker/Sub scenarios. I don't see us keeping this.

- Gothita is the same as it always was, but now with fewer Knock Off users to disrupt its gameplan it can reliably run Eviolite or Choice Scarf sets as it pleases. I personally prefer Scarf sets still but some testing has shown that Eviolite is still extremely disruptive. I don't see this staying around for too long either.

- I think Moody w/o boosting accuracy/evasion actually makes it better now as an offensive tool because now you're more likely to receive the boosts you want. Remoraid doesn't have to fish as hard for its speed boosts, and it's to the point where I can't even classify it as uncompetitive because you're almost always going to be receiving a beneficial boost. With this in mind, Remoraid can now stall out the game until it has a plethora of boosts and then sweep. Snorunt can do this too, not to the extent of Remoraid, but still enough to be an issue.

- Assuming we get rid of the above threats soon, I think the next Pokemon to look at are Cutiefly and Trapinch. With Gastly gone Cutiefly will start seeing a lot more use and will probably become the next big threat to watch out for, and Trapinch traps things lol. First Impression does a lot more work for it than I expected. There have been concerns about 4MSS but I don't see that being a big problem since after EQ/Giga/FI the only struggle is whether to run Rock Slide or Superpower. Ok I'm done rambling see y'all again soon.
 
Last edited:

zf

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Mons with potential to be banned


The flyers
Everyone seems to be sleeping on these guys as busted, but they only got better with the generational change. With the Dexit, there are only 3 viable flying resists in LC (Chinchou, Onix, and Pawniard) while the flyers lost very little in terms of movepool (Hidden Power for Vullaby, Defog for Wingull, Recycle for Drifloon). Vullaby will continue to dominate every match it's in; it's a versatile threat with offensive, defensive, and sweeping capabilities and I expect it to have a near-100% usage on balance and bulky teams. Wingull is fast and strong and really only has 1-2 switch-ins in Chinchou and Munchlax (the latter of which does not like Knock Off) because Scald invalidates conventional Flying resists; it lost z-Hurricane for consistency purposes but otherwise is extremely difficult to check. Drifloon is the most underexplored of the 3, but possesses all the tools to be an absolute menace and is extremely versatile. Everyone knows about Sub + Acro (which demand immediate respect) but it has moves like Destiny Bond (to trade with scarce Flying resists), Hypnosis (pair with trappers to remove Flying resists), and Weather Ball (lures Pawn/Ferro for Chloro sweepers). That's not even touching on Calm Mind, which has an entirely different set of checks than physical variants of Drifloon.


Gastly
Everyone knows this one is busted lmao



Farfetchd
Farfetchd is the only "real" fighter left in the metagame and is reminiscent of ORAS and SM Mienfoo. It's fast, it's strong, and it's bulky. Scarf sets require teams to pack untrappable Fighting resists (availability neutered by Dexit) or faster scarfers to avoid lategame sweeps, and SD sets break past almost every Fighting resist in the current metagame. It has synergy with all 3 trappers and potential to run unique sets like Eject thingy as seen in ima's week 1 LC snake game.



Cutiefly
It's a sweeper, it's a webs setter, it's fast with good STABs and coverage, and can run multiple sets. It forces teams to have Fairy resists that aren't weak to Psychic (read: steel-types) or Munchlax to not insta-lose to QD. I think it will be banned in the future..



The trappers
Trapping is historically uncompetitive, and I believe Gothita and Trapinch will eventually be banned. Diglett may prove to be too strong paired with U-Turn flyers like Vullaby or Wingull, so I expect one of them to go in the future as well.
 
i want to argue that for our next round we should discuss getting rid of the move Sticky Web instead of the pokemon Cutiefly and keeping it banned even if Cutiefly is itself overwhelming without it.

please do not post "we do not ban moves". obviously the fact that i said not to means it is funny to do it to "troll" me, so you can do that, but please dont make a serious post linking back to a policy review thread from 2014 where some guy tried to ban like meteor mash and got fucking owned and then act like it's dispositive.

lets start by saying that this has been a problem, or at least an arguable problem, for a long time now. since the move was introduced in gen 6 webs have been really, really good as mostly a style of team. the ability to at least dramatically reduce the ability of teams to use faster checks to powerful lc attackers (abra and gastly famously, but things as diverse as bunnelby, cranidos, snover, the whole set) is obviously incredibly powerful. this came at the cost of a teamslot, yes, but the benefits were well worth it. as such, webs teams have been used in every high-level lc competition since the advent of the Brazilian electrowebs made famous by ggggd. and it has had mostly the same character for all of that time: a teamstyle incredibly effective for farming wins against players less able to deal with it while also baiting heavy mu edges / losses in teamtour settings. they're p easy to construct, and they create settings where you "win at team preview" more than any other squad. they also result in games that are formulaic with high-leverage tie turns moreso than any other style of littlecup.

theres been a case to ban them for a while too. they force teams into checking individual pokemon rather than relying on a more general set of outs w scarves and the like, which leaves you open to a different type of webs team using mons you dont have hard checks for, and in lc youve gotta be playing softchecks to something. or they force you into getting them off fast, a strat dependent on the other team not having sold out (think anti-star anti-vulla webs from end gen 7) to stop your hazard control. both of these reveal the mu determinism these teams create, and unlike other mu fish squads (think, like, shellos) these teams are interchangeable enough where there will always be a webs that destroys you. thats what removing softchecks does.

there are, of course, softchecks that do exist. fletchling was the goto in gen 6 because of its strong prio, forcing dedicated bird checks on every webs team. gastly doesnt touch the ground and can fire off lo attacks against frail teams that rely on webs for speed control. snivy boosts speed and can snowball its contrary leaf storm boosts against teams w.o a dedicated grassmove taker. pawn doubles its attack when it comes in w defiant. staryu can come in on webs users and at least keep them off briefly and scare with thunderbolt.

all of those are gone now. webs checks have gotten steadily worse over time. vulla exists, but in a world where onix gets head smash anti-vulla builds are going to be more common than ever. timburr gets defog now, but is knockless and cant come in on webs setters and fog freely. maybe defog wingull? but i dont feel confident in that pokemon retaining its usefulness as a defensive anti-webs presence throughout the whole game. without snivy and gastly, the go-tos in offensive webs counterplay, you really dont have a lot to punish webs setting. even pawn doesnt get rock polish any more.

cutiefly is the best webs setter and the biggest webs problem, but i dont anticipate the above issues going away if it gets banned. other webs setters, dewpider in particular, can plug in easily and get them up for the hitters to go in. cutiefly meanwhile provides real value in the meta by forcing more vullabys into scarves and by dissuading nps in a meta thats rapidly losing its special attackers. remember, vullaby wasnt on the ban radar in the trapinch meta, which you could maybe attribute to a lack of innovation, but is better given to the rise of ninjadog-edition scarf vullabys and starmaster bulky SpD creations required to stop the fast special attackers running around. i think we should at least look at websless cutie to see if it's manageable.

now im aware it is policy to prefer pokemon bans over everything. but i remind the dear reader that lc has a tradition of circumventing this rule out of tier-specific necessity. most notably, berry juice was banned in gens 4 and 5 instead of all of the mons berry juice broke. maybe this is a unique circumstance, but the prevalence of webs and the peculiarly lc requirement of a boat of soft checks makes me suspect there might be something in it. our closest thing to a catch-all check is munchlax, and thats a pokemon famous for 1) getting feasted on by half the meta and 2) only rising in usage when something is broken. you basically need to commit to beating some things with speed, and webs ruling that out is always going to be problematic.

(dont make too much of the berry juice example. i dont use it as defining precedent. i give it to show that there are reasons to think outside of the box in terms of defining our tier, and to argue that when something is needed for the health of the meta we shouldnt be afraid to do it).

and there is a real need, i think. in london13's v good post a couple above, he argues for the need to remove gimmicky or mu-fishing or uncompetitive strats from the tier before our representation in the site's biggest teamtour. what has been that for us more than webs? i know when looking at team preview in a final between two really good, really smart players i was relieved i didnt see a webs setter on either screen. it may be a competitive advantage to see a chance to sell out for a mu and try for a 65% edge against a fellow teamtour player, but it doesnt make for good viewing and it doesnt reflect well (to the point of commentary on it) on our tier that we allow it. the fact that it continues, five (?) years later, to work and work well (to the tune of 2ish brings per player in the most recent snake) should show that it may be a product of the move and playstyle itself rather than a lack of teambuilding skill among the best builders and players in the meta.

so yea. we dont have to have another gen like this. we can imagine a better future for our tier. join me. if we do this, i promise that i wont bitch even ironically about the gen 8 pinch ban. thanks
 

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Altariel von Sweep

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Trapinch right now is able to take out both Pawniard and Onix easily, but how many threats it enables to wreck havoc on common builds is much harder to manage than last generation, as after Gothita and Gastly bans it can easily trap whatever it is needed for its team, running the bread and butter physically defensive trapper set or running a much more offensive set that can trap Ferroseed with Superpower. There is a wide variety of examples, but I would like to focus on Flying spam the most, and the reason behind that is that the Flying checks either are trapped by Trapinch (Onix, Pawniard), or can be easily abused (Chinchou). To add salt in the bruise, some Flying Pokemon such as Wingull and Vullaby are able to threaten those checks via coverage with Heat Wave Vullaby or typing by scaring Onix out with Wingull or potentially burning Pawniard. The consistency of Trapinch at trapping those threats never ceases to be amazing and thus acting as a centralizing presence any team should have answers to, but the burden is harder to bear if there are so many Pokemon that can benefit from a few Pokemon being removed that it is virtually impossible to handle all of them without carrying dead weight such as Munchlax (bad Pokemon, btw). It has to go as soon as possible.


Cutiefly is able to act as the best Web setter in the metagame thanks to its high Speed, but what Shrug mentioned is really crucial as with the departure of Gastly, we have yet lost another Pokemon to handle Webs, becoming incredibly centralizing and enabling a literal FUCKTON of threats in SD Corphish, Farfetch'd-Galar and Drilbur, Mudbray, Cufant, NP Vullaby and Croagunk, DD Onix... and even rarer Pokemon such as Krabby and Arrokuda! All of these are incredibly useful on their own under Webs and apply a lot of pressure on common teams if the hazard has been set, but that is not all, Cutiefly can provide further utility by crippling a Pokemon with Stun Spore or gaining momentum with U-turn, thus making the Web abusers even harder to control. Outside of Webs, Quiver Dance Cutiefly works wonders on several different teams, as Moonblast + coverage option puts work on the teams trying to scout for Cutiefly's coverage, whether it is Psychic to hit Mareanie, Energy Ball to ensure the OHKO on Water-types, or even Bug Buzz to severely damage its soft checks. I am in favor of banning it, but I don't believe banning Webs is the key right now. I'd pospone looking into Sticky Web if it proves to be as dangerous with Dewpider.


Both Gastly and Gothita gone meant a lot for Farfetch'd-Galar losing two of its offensive checks, being able to run a plethora of sets in Choice Scarf to put insane offensive pressure on common builds, as well as SD sets on Webs and Defog if role compression is needed. The raw strength of Galarian Farfetch'd, coupled with Scrappy allows it to muscle through most of the metagame having only Spritzee, Mareanie and Vullaby as reliable switch-ins. I would not say it is broken, but restrictive into teambuilding and practice trying to check it everytime possible. I feel it healthy in a bird metagame, but were Vullaby to be banned, it would be much harder to manage it.


Wingull has not lost anything important and remains as the threat it has always been. It is the Flying-type able to threaten out two of the Flying checks in Pawniard and Onix to abuse its STAB combination of Scald + Hurricane to punch holes through unprepared teams. Even Chinchou, which is supposedly Wingull's best answer, cannot risk at losing its item, and Wingull can scout much better without the presence of Pursuit thanks to Protect, whenever a revenge killer such as Scarf Pokemon tries to remove it. It is annoying by itself, but having Trapinch to remove Pawniard and Ferroseed for Wingull is amazing since the latter can hold against Wingull and cripple it. I see no reason not to ban it after we are done with Trapinch.


Vullaby is competely annoying as ever, but with one difference. Pawniard sucks a lot as a soft check to it right now, and there are enough answers to Onix as well, making it able to run a plethora of sets to cover the needs of its team. Trapinch running wild in the metagame is a great thing to it too, since it can run both physical and Nasty Plot sets with no restrictions and just pick its checks and counters. The loss of Hidden Power Grass doesn't seem too big for it, and there is not anything that would like to get crippled by Knock Off, as it would enable Vullaby to turn its would-be checks unable to check it so easily, even Spritzee, who is its long time best answer in the metagame. It looks quite dangerous right now, and it could get even harder to manage as the metagame progresses.


God, this Pokemon is so bad. Not only after losing two Pokemon it could revenge kill, it just got even worse due to Trapinch's presence increasing much more, it cannot act as a safe Flying check due to Vullaby being able to carry Heat Wave or Wingull capable of burning it, as well as many other threats being able to switch in easily such as Mareanie, Mudbray, and even Onix, and force it out to gain momentum, setup, hit the switch in with a strong move or set Stealth Rock up. Trapinch just laughs at it by switching into it to outright trap it. Without Knock Off, this Pokemon feels empty, despite having a niche for hazard control on hyper offensive archetypes.


Onix is so good. Forcing switches to either set Stealth Rock up or boost with Dragon Dance means big things to it, as it can 2HKO most of the Pokemon with simply Edgequake coverage, limiting its answers to Trapinch if the opponent needs it to revenge kill it, and the only Pokemon in Mudbray being able to switch in into anyting and force it out, excluding revenge killing from strong priority moves such as Aqua Jet Corphish. In a metagame with Cutiefly going wild right now, I had the idea to use Dragon Dance Stealth Rock on Sturdy sets as the lead, and it really fares well thanks to the longevity this set provides to Onix, as well as reliably taking the birds out. It could be really threatening once Trapinch is out, but easily manageable and probably the to-go pick for many of the metagame teams.


It is criminal that this lad has gone overlooked considering the metagame state we are in. Both Gastly and Gothita gone, as well as Cutiefly and Trapinch may will be too poses the resurgeance of a Fighting-type able to compress roles by checking Water-types such as Mareanie and Corphish, since Mareanie lost an important tech in Hidden Power Psychic and is the long story's Corphish's best answer. I'm really sure that even Dark Pulse sets can work as useful as ever since Frillish is getting gradually better in the metagame and how Webs have drastically improved just makes Croagunk much better than it is, wallbreaking with relative ease common builds while using its asset of resistances to setup. However, Galarian Farfetch'd having Brave Bird and Timburr being less popular does not offer much to its Fighting-check role, leaving it useless. Worth a try after the metagame settles down.


Frillish is the best spiblocker in the game and a check to relevant Pokemon in Cutiefly, Wingull, Corphish and Onix by making use of its decent bulk to cripple them and sabotage the latter two's sweep attempts via the combination of Strength Sap + Will-O-Wisp. Strength Sap is a really powerful tool in a metagame filled with many physically offensive Pokemon, meaning that Frillish usually will get almost or completely recovered while being a pain in the ass. All of those traits is what makes it good on Webs and Hazard Spam teams, enabling the abusers of both to go wild. As of outside of hyper offensive archetype, its defensive utility poses a good starting point for defensive cores with Ground-types and


Man, Corphish is living its finest moment in this metagame. The fact that most of common builds lack of a solid Water-type check is a good thing for Corphish, as it can OHKO important threats such as Onix, Mudbray and frailer Pokemon such as Wingull unboosted, while being able to SD and 2HKO resists such as Mareanie. Even Corphish can afford to run Superpower as well for Life Orb sets, having a strong chance of OHKOing Ferroseed after Stealth Rock. The latter variant is probably the best one on Webs, where raw power allows Corphish to go wild with no chance of managing it easily whatsoever, having almost no good switching bar Croagunk.


Finally, Mudbray is another winner of the shift, being able to concentrate more into soft important threats such as Cutiefly and Onix, and being able to force many switches to put Stealth Rock thanks to its humongous 20 Attack, which can make use of to severely weaken the aforementioned switch-ins, having as example 2HKO to Spritzee with Heavy Slam, and non Scarf variants of Galarian Farfetch'd and Corphish with Earthquake. This ability is really appreciated by both Galarian Farfetch'd and Corphish, as it can threaten both Spritzee and Mareanie for them to wreck havoc on the opposing teams. Even in hyper offensive teams, if hazards have been removed in Hazard spam per se, Mudbray can act as a secondary Stealth Rock setter making use of its offensive presence to set Stealth Rock up again, in the same fashion for webs, but being able to outspeed important threats and dent them really good.
 

Kingler12345

levi when we win ekans
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This Trapinch ban mob is kind of ridiculous to me. It doesn't even trap some of the biggest threats in the tier consistently; in fact, in a lot of games it's been quite useless aside from fast sets trapping ferro (and countertrapping dig i guess?). Pawn isn't nearly as threatening as it used to be in this gen, so trapping it is far less relevant. In addition, Timburr gets Defog which means that hazards from Ferro/Pawn aren't even that strong in the tier (aside from sticky web and maybe toxic spikes, but that's a different story obv). You guys are rushing to conclusions trying to ban the same stuff from late SM with faulty comparisons. Gastly and Goth being gone and Trapinch not necessarily being stellar vs them (it's one of the only things that could countertrap goth, by the way) doesn't mean we should rush to ban this. It's not even close to the first thing we should look at from the games I've seen, imo; first impression is FAR weaker than you'd think it is, and trapinch can be countertrapped by LO dig more easily now that QA/feint is less common.

Even the Sticky Web ban feels premature to me, I don't think it or Cutiefly are all that hard to handle; there are plenty of checks that fit onto normal teams. Maybe we should look at something we actually banned at the start of gen 7 (sun, anyone?) instead of trying to ban the same thing everyone was complaining about late SM lol.
 
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Yoshi

i never signed up for your drama club
is a Pre-Contributor
I think it's clear at this point that we've come to a point where we are much more divided on whether or not something is broken. For the first wave of bans, it seemed that there was a very clear opinion that the community (and council) shared on Gastly, Gothita, and Moody, with a few minor exceptions. However, at this point, it seems that we're fairly split on Pokemon like Trapinch, Cutiefly, Farfetche'd, etc. Therefore, the best course of action would be to wait before jumping to conclusions and banning something that doesn't need to be banned.

I think we should definitely wait until after Ekans is banned before banning anything at all, unless the council and community can come to a clear consensus that the council needs to take immediate action to remove something that is stifling the growth and enjoyment of the tier. We're very early on in the meta and jumping to unnecessary quick bans and suspect tests is definitely not the start to healthy tier growth and meta development. We've only had a couple of weeks at most with this meta, and we've gotten the clearly broken things out of the way, so we have no reason to continue with quick banning more Pokemon at this time. Again, this is coming from a point of view where I find that the community is divided on the next best course of action, and not from any sort of bias.

tl;dr - Let's wait until Ekans ends (or at least a few more weeks) before banning anything else as it seems people are divided on what should / shouldn't be banned.
 

Kingler12345

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I disagree with that; this meta still seems unstable and a new round of quickbans might help us. I disagree with what was done at the start of SM -- we took nearly all of SPL to ban sun when it clearly seemed broken. It's not "divided community opinion," it's the rush to put these mons on the slate without prioritization of the most broken threats. Let's discuss what should be suspected first, then have a slate of actual quickbans the council should vote on so that this tier can settle better. Waiting 3 months to ban obviously broken stuff helps no one though, which is why this thread is really important (and I hope my fellow council members take the opportunity to post here with their opinions).
 

Yoshi

i never signed up for your drama club
is a Pre-Contributor
What are the "obviously broken" things that you are referring to though? From all the discussion I've seen thus far, there's nothing that is objectively broken. I understand that in the case of SM some things were let go for a while that probably should've been banned sooner, but I don't see that to be the case in S&S at all. I will agree to figuring out the thoughts of other council members, and what you think the most broken Pokemon are yourself. I think if there are obviously broken things that we find to be obviously broken, then we'll find out sooner than later. I'm not opposed to discussing broken Pokemon, in fact that is what I'm trying to encourage. I just think jumping the gun and banning things that are fine parts of the metagame would impact metagame development, perhaps negatively.
 
i'm gonna have to agree with yoshi here, i'm not sure there's anything is "obviously broken".. but there's def things that should be looked at sooner than later.. for example, all three of these mons we've been on the fence about:

:cutiefly: :farfetchd-galar: :trapinch:

i dont really have anything to add onto cutiefly bc its already been said... but farfetch'd is a threat rn. you can use scarf or band or LO.. it gets a pretty ok movepool but nonetheless can still drop a dent into teams... i believe its max speed is 16 and with scarf it becomes 24, which outspeeds... well... everything that isnt opposing scarf lol. with it's base 95 attack its lookin like a real threat. i believe the set is closecombat/bravebird/knockoff/leafblade? correct me if im wrong, and it punches a hole through teams, even with threats like pawniard, onix, trapinch, etc. i believe its number one counters are impidimp/spritzee without poison jab, and i believe vullaby takes a hit from farfetch'd. honestly dont see any reason to use timburr over this

arena trap is busted lol ban it
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
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This dude is perfectly fine imo. He now has a harder time being a consistent beater of Onix, as just a little chip and switching in on Dragon Dance can cause him to lose, as kingler said Pawniard just really isn't that good right now. The only thing it reliably traps is sometimes Ferroseed and Munchlax, but it loses to Munchlax after a boost. I guess it also beats Diglett but Diglett isn't that hot anymore either. Trapinch's tradeoff depends on its set, in which there are always things that set up on Trapinch, such as Corphish, and things that sometimes set up on it, like Wingull, Vullaby, or Cutiefly (if no Rock Slide). I agree that this is something that should not be addressed right now. There is a lot of thinking involved when Trapinch is alive in which you have to know what is and isn't safe to kill / trap, and a good team shouldn't just be run through by Trapinch with no response available. I think it's a lot different than it was in SM. Cool moves in First Impression, but honestly u can just run Protect Cherubi or Protect Ponyta and not be immediately ohko'd by First Impression, and neither of those really care about having to run Tect.

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/ Webs​
I think this mon should be addressed. It's really cool to use and fun with its variety of sets. It has trouble breaking through things like Cufant or Munchlax and Ferroseed (if you run Iron Head), but it's variety is off the wall. What pushes it over the line for me is its speed combined with ability to set up webs. Whereas things like Dewpider or Surskit can lose to Onix leads or Vullaby leads, Cutiefly beats out both of those, outspeeding everything in the meta for nigh guaranteed Webs. The only good matchup is Drilbur, where u spin turn 1 then rock slide turn 2, but even then Cutie can just go away to come back in later, doesn't matter if you break its sash. The comeback potential is p gnarly too with Cutiefly, as one or two boosts means it starts reaming you unless you kept your Munchlax. You can argue this is a tradeoff though, in that if you let it get a free turn to boost then you played poorly, but I think it's snowball potential and variety of great moves is just too much.

I think that Webs should not be banned. I do think that Shrug's thinking is wrong; if slapping a Scarf on mons and calling it a day in checking it is good enough evidence of teambuilding to you then I think that's a really bad misconception. Teams that get run through by Onix, or Corphish, etc, are made poorly and the mons just abuse the structure in your team squad. My week 1 game was evidence of this, in which I won regardless if I had webs up or not, as Corphish capitalized on the mons Shrug had. I don't think it's matchup fishing at all and provides a way for lots of random mons to be usable. Defog, fliers, Spin Drilbur, these aren't uncommon things that are hard to fit on a team in my opinion. Moreover nixing the whole playstyle really rubs me the wrong way; as stated previously things like Dewpider are not as fast meaning it's easy to taunt it, kill it with Head Smash / Rock Blast / Brave Bird, and otherwise keep down. You can no longer sac the webs setter to get up webs for one last turn which really limits the playstyle, and I think it'd be premature to just ban the whole archetype. Especially when the record for webs so far is 1-3. If ur on board with banning Webs, I hope u keep that same energy when the time comes for A-pix to be in the tier.

1575428732692.png
I'm really surprised that in the convos above people are more concerned with Trapinch than Sun teams. If we're talking matchup fishing, Sun is the epitome of MU fish. It's like ADV Fullpass, or SM PU Rain. The counterplay to Sun is pretty hyper specific in terms of moves mons and plays, and moreover the template for Sun is basically done for you (Vulpix / Cherubi / Drifloon / Rocker (Onix?) / fill / fill. It almost always plays the same and unless you run Munchlax or something you have a tough time being overwhelmed with it. I don't even think that Sun is that strong tbh, it's a ladder terror more than anything similar to Aveil squads last gen, but the teams are so formulaic and rigid that it concerns me. It truly is the only MU fish imo and for that reason alone should probably leave, prior to SPL as kingler stated.

1575428973325.png
It's ok lol. I don't understand the mob around it. I mean zf says its really powerful so ig maybe I'm missing something, but this thing seems similar to like, BW OU Terrakion. It has its power but is really reliant on clicking the right move. It's trapped by Trapinch after a Close Combat (Scarf sets), if Eviolite then it is moderately slow, losing to Floon Cutie Wingull and tying with Vullaby. It's a good mon but is it broken? I really don't think so, it's just a new mon and I think people underestimate it's damage. Things like Spritzee, Vullaby, Mareanie all need to be misplayed several times over in order to lose to a Fetch team, so if it's just breaking through your whole team then that's evident of a teambuilding problem imo. Don't think this thing should be suspected at all.



I do think that the direction the tier goes should be, with exceptions, gradual. Things that are either blatant strong, like Gastly, deserve to leave; things that are binary and mu, Sun, should also probably be voted on. Aside from that I think there should be a slowdown. I understand getting the meta ready for SPL and all but I think people need to let go of the fear of repeating SPL V, when the meta was underdeveloped. There is a much better power curve prevalent in builds right now, matches to me are looking fun and exciting, and there are very little luck based elements to draw comparisons to. I thinkt hat the meta should have some time to settle and develop. Even a couple weeks is enough, and really just trying not to rush things.
 

Man, Corphish is living its finest moment in this metagame. The fact that most of common builds lack of a solid Water-type check is a good thing for Corphish, as it can OHKO important threats such as Onix, Mudbray and frailer Pokemon such as Wingull unboosted, while being able to SD and 2HKO resists such as Mareanie. Even Corphish can afford to run Superpower as well for Life Orb sets, having a strong chance of OHKOing Ferroseed after Stealth Rock. The latter variant is probably the best one on Webs, where raw power allows Corphish to go wild with no chance of managing it easily whatsoever, having almost no good switching bar Croagunk.
Corpish gain CC in this gen, no need to use superpower..
 
This Trapinch ban mob is kind of ridiculous to me. It doesn't even trap some of the biggest threats in the tier consistently; in fact, in a lot of games it's been quite useless aside from fast sets trapping ferro (and countertrapping dig i guess?). Pawn isn't nearly as threatening as it used to be in this gen, so trapping it is far less relevant. In addition, Timburr gets Defog which means that hazards from Ferro/Pawn aren't even that strong in the tier (aside from sticky web and maybe toxic spikes, but that's a different story obv). You guys are rushing to conclusions trying to ban the same stuff from late SM with faulty comparisons. Gastly and Goth being gone and Trapinch not necessarily being stellar vs them (it's one of the only things that could countertrap goth, by the way) doesn't mean we should rush to ban this. It's not even close to the first thing we should look at from the games I've seen, imo; first impression is FAR weaker than you'd think it is, and trapinch can be countertrapped by LO dig more easily now that QA/feint is less common.

Even the Sticky Web ban feels premature to me, I don't think it or Cutiefly are all that hard to handle; there are plenty of checks that fit onto normal teams. Maybe we should look at something we actually banned at the start of gen 7 (sun, anyone?) instead of trying to ban the same thing everyone was complaining about late SM lol.
I disagree with your points about trapinch. Trapinch still supports in a similar way to what it did in SM LC, but to an even greater extent. Trapinch was banned in SM LC due to its ability to support mons like vullaby, gastly, abra, and other flying types by trapping flying resists and grimer-a. At the peak of trapinch usage in SM LC, the flying resists had developed techs to avoid being trapped by trapinch, like z earthquake onix, liquidation tirtouga, etc. Now in SS, onix lost any ability to avoid getting trapped by trapinch with the removal of z moves. Pawniard lost knock off, which means it needs to rely on an iron head flinch to not get killed by trapinch. We lost tirtouga entirely so that is no longer a flying resist. Once these are removed, there is little stopping the onslaught of flying types.

In addition to supporting flying types, trapinch is also able to support cutiefly and sun, by trapping munchlax and ferroseed, 2 of the only reliable cutiefly answers. Trapinch finds itself being able to support offensive mons in almost every matchup and if it can't trap anything on the opposing team, it seems unlikely that the other team would have any answers to cutiefly, sun abusers, or flying types. While a lot of the things that trapinch supports are also potentially banworthy further down the line (sun, cutiefly, maybe even vullaby/corphish), I think it is pretty clear that trapinch provides a level of support to too many mons without any reasonable counterplay to it.

_________________________________________________________________


As for other threats, I think sun is the next threat on the chopping block. There are a couple of ways to deal with sun teams (for the sake of argument, a sun team is going to be vulpix+growth oddish+protect cherubi+some defensive backbone), but these options aren't ideal. First, you need an answer to vulpix, which can be overlooked at times, but is very important or else vulpix can be a bigger threat than the chlorophyll sweepers. Then you need a steel type to handle oddish, which thankfully lacks coverage to hit steel types for any significant damage. Unfortunately, cherubi exists and has stab solarbeam and a weather ball that will melt ferroseed/pawniard/cufant, so you need something else that can live a +2 solarbeam/weather ball, such as munchlax. Alternatively, you can deal with sun by running a sand team, which does a reasonably good job of shutting down vulpix and its weather, and by extension, the chlorophyll sweepers too. I feel that dealing with the sun archetype requires too much effort into the teambuilder for sun to be healthy in this meta, as you either need to run sand or you need to run some combination of ferroseed/munchlax/overcoat vullaby to not get steamrolled by sun.

I'm pretty undecided on webs and cutiefly right now. I'm not sure if I've seen a game where webs was clearly the deciding factor between who won, so I think pushing for a webs ban is pretty ridiculous as of now. Cutiefly will definitely be in a wait-and-see situation since it will be worse without its partner in crime, trapinch, to trap ferroseed/munchlax/other steels, but cutiefly will still warp the meta around it, forcing people to run a ferroseed or munchlax to not get swept once cutiefly sets up quiver dance.

___________________________________________________________________


Drifloon hasn't seen much discussion yet either, but I think it is starting to be realized as one of the biggest threats in LC now. There is a lot of versatility between the sets, which makes it a guessing game on how to deal with it. Hex sets supported by toxic spikes and will o wisp are the most deadly sets, but a pure calm mind set or mixed sets are also effective too. Revenging it once unburden activates is difficult, as only priority can outspeed drifloon.

Ultimately, I think we're at a sort of crossroads with LC in terms of a banning cascade. Right now, LC is filled with powerful, centralizing threats. There are enough of them that none of them stand out specifically as the big banworthy threat, but as soon as we begin to ban one threat, the other ones will become more obvious. Whether we take the path of banning threats one by one, or we leave the meta as a cesspool of powerful threats is still needing to be discussed, although it is most likely to be the former rather than the latter, based off council opinions I have heard so far.
 

Kingler12345

levi when we win ekans
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BurntZebra you can't really attribute z-ground onix to trapinch's brokenness lol, it arose as a way to get surprise kills on mienfoo and timburr; the 2HKO on trapinch switching in is great but it's not even the main reason the set was used so much (you can see that from it being used in post-pinch metas). Liquidation tirtouga also doesn't seem like a very strong case lol, it also helps a lot vs pawn which was a pretty good check to it (who runs eq anymore?). The fact that these marginal sets that were less easily trapped by trapinch were available in SM is pretty lacking evidence toward trapinch being "more" broken. I also completely disagree with your reasoning on why trapinch was banned in SM; it didn't support various threats to a broken degree, just GastBra (a lot more abra than gastly, since nithing really counters gastly) and Vullaby. Keep in mind that in SS, Diglett can trap all of these threats you've mentioned (yes, sub diglett traps pawn if you can play pokemon) as well, and is better against Chinchou.

Pawniard not having knock is relevant, yes; it sucks now. It can try iron head flinching regardless, the only change is that trapping pawniard isn't as useful as in SM or ORAS. Onix is actually harder to trap now because of dragon dance; trapinch can't switch in on onix once it's boosted (z move was super easy to scout regardless, not sure why this matters). If flying-type answers are so hard to come by--and you're not even mentioning chinchou, which trapinch can't trap and is a fine answer to wingull--it's a symptom of a meta that's super offensive. The fact that we have far more broken threats than the flyers (the reason that Trapinch is being singled out) right now is proof trapinch shouldn't even be considered for a suspect right now, lol.
 
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BurntZebra you can't really attribute z-ground onix to trapinch's brokenness lol, it arose as a way to get surprise kills on mienfoo and timburr; the 2HKO on trapinch switching in is great but it's not even the main reason the set was used so much (you can see that from it being used in post-pinch metas). Liquidation tirtouga also doesn't seem like a very strong case lol, it also helps a lot vs pawn which was a pretty good check to it (who runs eq anymore?). The fact that these marginal sets that were less easily trapped by trapinch were available in SM is pretty lacking evidence toward trapinch being "more" broken. I also completely disagree with your reasoning on why trapinch was banned in SM; it didn't support various threats to a broken degree, just GastBra (a lot more abra than gastly, since nithing really counters gastly) and Vullaby. Keep in mind that in SS, Diglett can trap all of these threats you've mentioned (yes, sub diglett traps pawn if you can play pokemon) as well, and is better against Chinchou.

Pawniard not having knock is relevant, yes; it sucks now. It can try iron head flinching regardless, the only change is that trapping pawniard isn't as useful as in SM or ORAS. Onix is actually harder to trap now because of dragon dance; trapinch can't switch in on onix once it's boosted (z move was super easy to scout regardless, not sure why this matters). If flying-type answers are so hard to come by--and you're not even mentioning chinchou, which trapinch can't trap and is a fine answer to wingull--it's a symptom of a meta that's super offensive. The fact that we have far more broken threats than the flyers (the reason that Trapinch is being singled out) right now is proof trapinch shouldn't even be considered for a suspect right now, lol.
That still doesn't change that z ground onix was able to beat trapinch in SM LC. Onix has no chance vs giga drain trapinch in this meta. Dragon dance doesn't help since trapinch either kos onix cleanly, or it recovers 40% of its health putting it outside of the range of being ko'ed by onix. If a person has trapinch and you have an onix, onix has no way of avoiding being trapped by trapinch. At least in SM, you could run a flying resist that wasn't 100% going to be trapped by trapinch if you ran the right moves.

Diglett is more limited now without z earthquake and the use of dragon dance onix, which means that diglett has no move that can ko onix. Diglett is also massively limited in a meta where trapinch exists, as first impression can pick off a diglett from 73% or below without taking any damage. Admittedly, in a pinchless meta, diglett will probably find itself taking up a role similar to trapinch, but it will be less effective, as it can't switch into onix or pawniard, unlike trapinch.

This is somewhat of a tangent, but that is not the only reason trapinch was banned in SM in my opinion. Trapinch shaped the meta around it, beyond being able to trap grimer-a for gastbra. Onix usage tanked by 50% when trapinch usage peaked. Tko's gastbra+z eq trapinch team was showcased in December 2017, while trapinch didn't get banned until April 2019, so I think the banning of trapinch in SM is more complex than its ability to support gastbra.

I'm not sure what world you're living in where chinchou is a reliable answer to vullaby or rufflet. Scarf chinchou takes 62-75% from rufflet brave bird and can die to close combat. Eviolite chinchou does better as it only takes 36% from rufflet brave bird, but it finds itself outsped by vullaby and rufflet, which basically limits it to coming in one time at most.

I feel like you're underestimating the support that trapinch can provide to a team. Trapinch is able to support sun teams, by trapping ferroseed for oddish. Trapinch is able to support cutiefly, ponyta-g, and wingull by trapping munchlax or ferroseed. Trapinch is able to support vullaby, rufflet, and drifloon by trapping pawniard or onix. Trapinch is able to support farfetchd by trapping spritzee or mareanie. Almost every pokemon mentioned as potentially banworthy is supported by trapinch, and yet, you think trapinch is not the culprit. What are we really trying to preserve by keeping trapinch in the tier? Is banning all threats that benefit from trapinch trapping really reasonable? Banning trapinch minimizes the collateral damage of already reduced size of the SS LC tier.
 

Kingler12345

levi when we win ekans
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BurntZebra

The point is that z-ground onix is irrelevant to the discussion because your argument was that trapinch could trap onix "more easily" now, which is pretty vague. Z onix was a worse check to birds, was worse defensively against most threats (fighters etc), and also was incredibly obvious from even vull uturn rolls. It wasn't very hard to use uturn vull into trapinch to trap onix regardless, so just because you can't hard switch in trapinch to onix every time into trapinch doesn't mean the extra effort isn't marginal regardless. Trapinch still finds it harder to switch in on +1 onix, so it can't directly switch in at the very least. Yes, you can switch in trapinch as soon as onix is in, but this is incredibly exploitable especially vs a slow mon. Using your own argument about flying-types being so hard to switch into, trapinch is a massive liability against these flying-types. Unless you switch in trapinch on the first turn and onix gets a DD off, trapinch can't switch in anymore. Or are we assuming that having to sac a mon vs a +1 onix just to get it trapped by trapinch (enjoy SR on your side btw) is a reasonable trade? Btw I'm not sure why a trapinch team from 2017 (when it was maybe B at best, funny how things change) is relevant to your argument, but regardless that was an aside so I'll let that go.

The trapinch trapping diglett argument doesn't make much sense to me. If I'm the diglett user, I'm probably letting it be countertrapped by trapinch when I've already trapped what I need to. That's not a terrible trade for the diglett user, especially considering diglett can run protect to block FI (which is why i made the point about feint/protect being less common). It also leaves the trapinch user at low hp, meaning it's probably useless and the free switch lets threats like Cutiefly, Wingull, Vull or a mon faster than it (there are a lot!) come in for free and get a hit off.

I never said Chinchou countered Vullaby or Rufflet, I said it counters Wingull (probably one of the worst offenders). I agree that it does not counter vullaby or rufflet, although it does gain momentum on them and can switch into scarf brave bird fine (still important). My point was about Chinchou wrt trapinch and not Vullaby or Rufflet

Regarding your list of things Trapinch traps, I'm confused again. Why does a sun team need to trap ferro (cherubi has weather ball and vulpix is fire-type, walling one sun abuser in oddish (which it doesn't really threaten without TWave, mind you) isn't great cause to run Trapinch on sun
How does trapinch trap oddish lol??? First impression doesn't do much to evio, and giga drain from oddish is super effective. The "minimizing collateral" argument isn't very relevant because you should focus on banning what's broken, not working off a post-trapinch ban meta to try to arbitrarily minimize bans. It goes against our tiering policy and how voters/councils should make their decisions...
 

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