disagree, but marginally. Still gen 8 levels of horrible atm. God bless gen 5
-
Follow our Instagram!
-
Curious about what we're currently doing about bots? Check out the latest updates from staff in this thread.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Greedy_eb
- Start date
A bit late but I needed time to write this. With this post I want to share my scl experience, teams + thoughts about lc meta.
Thoughts before scl started
First of all before starting preparing for my oppos in the break week I tried to understand the meta testing everything. I used to build solid teams but passive last year and generally for other tours so I had to change this. This is what I did firstly, ranking all mons:
There are 3 types of good teams imo:
Foo, vulla, foong, mudbray is the best core atm in lc. Last two mons should be fast mons and you can see all combinations that could be good.
Mareanie teams are the second best teams in lc. I’ll prob build more here but for now these are probably fine. Just wondering if stunky grow-h is fine. And for the chespin one nplot vulla is annoying and maybe shrew but overall it seems solid.
Different teams. They are fishy but still good imo. The hail one is really solid. You need to pay attention vs mudbray and vullaby but overall seems solid.
Larvesta one is interesting. It seems passive so I’m not convinced if it’s really good or not, just pay attention vs dig-a.
Shrew dig-a is really offensive as a team. Testing it, it was fine more or less but I’m not convinced overall. Shrew could be annoying.
Sun team I’m not convinced of sun, but that shroodle set is interesting to explore.
Thoughts after scl
That’s what I thought before starting scl, I deleted some cores which were bad imo.
Now I still think the best core is foongus mud vulla foo + 2 fast mons, but mareanie teams improved a lot during and after scl. There are versions with pinch > vulla or wingull + vulla on ttm that could work. About the chespin team I think it’s worse cuz nplot vulla usage increased a lot and that team sucks vs it. As for foongus teams I’d just add versions with shrew + vulla foong foo mudbray + glimm / elekid / dig-a. For crazy teams I’d delete sun and change Larvesta one with gothita larvesta team that is becoming popular lately, and I’d add screens with bpress numel.
Overall I like the meta rn. I really think our lc council managed really well since the start. I might get in trouble saying this but I think we should have banned tera. Banning tera blast (the move) doesn’t fix the problem imo. Suspecting shellder could be ok, banning it could be possible. Rest I think it’s fine.
Take a look on nplot tground vulla, it’s becoming really strong atm.
SCL preparing + replays + teams analysis
Having said this, lemme pass my scl teams / experience.
I did 6-4 and last scl I played lc I did 7-2 which means I did well. I’m still not satisfied about both my scores. Who knows me knows that I hate losing and I’m a perfectionist, so for me losing just one game means I still have to improve.
Week 1 vs starsama (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-869851
https://pokepast.es/a5db90f2c69ef5d8
I built this team because starsama’s teams were just foongus vulla foo mudbray so shrew goes crazy vs this core, especially under hail.
Mudbray is a bit annoying, you need to play well vs it, ebutton koffing to trap shrew checks, slow foo to trap better with gothita. Tera blast fire gothita was for steels.
I think I had a nice mu and I think I played well and deserved to win. I was unlucky with triple axel, there is one questionable play which is on turn 30. Psychic had 50% of killing ebutton koffing, that’s why I didn’t put it but I had to risk that at that point.
W2 vs envy (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-871706
https://pokepast.es/0bd8c614a2d87fde
I built this because envy’s scout was full of elekid / dig-a and ttm that’s why I thought double electrics with orb tgrass elekid would have been good vs him. Spunch chou is just for a priority.
I still think I had a good mu here but this was the game were I played worse, I started well but at some point I needed to tera foo and on turn 41 I had to put Chou and click spunch he would have stayed in.
Week 3 vs enigma (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-874738
https://pokepast.es/dc66cae36bb43c3d
Enigma scout sucked vs hazards so ttm + spin blocker was amazing vs him. Scarf zorua-h for speed with trick and hbeam. Speed tinka for vulla / baloon for dig-a and shrew, tgrass on mare for dig-a + electrics, dragon on vulla for electrics and fire, no ghost because I had zorua-h. Uturn vulla for getting zorua-h in. Water toed is for shellder.
I think I had another good mu as predicted. I played well and deserved to win even if I dropped spdef I still think I had it with recover mareanie. One questionable play was not saving vulla for shellos endgame since I had tera dragon instead of sacking zorua-h but my plan was to not reveal scarf on zorua-h so I could use this team again vs another scl player.
Week 4 vs edgy (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-877712
https://pokepast.es/766520cb97d88bf5
Edgy’s scout was bad vs grow-h and I think grow-h works only on ttm so that’s why I brought again ttm but with grow-h > zorua-h.
Team became pretty popular after that game and it’s still used and still solid.
Again here I had a nice mu and I played really well, spikes carried and dragon vulla closed it.
W5 vs Loki (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-879455
https://pokepast.es/0de3d22c0711ee02
Loki’s scout was bad vs hazards , nplot vulla and scarf shrew so I decided to build it and I absolutely wanted to use foongus.
Another good mu, at this point I knew I had a strong solid vision of the meta, I was really happy about how I was building. Nothing else to say I played really well. Fishing non scarf shrew worked hard.
W6 vs Jake (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-880798
https://pokepast.es/360c87c492e5f708
This team is crazy and I was. I brought this vs Jake because I thought Jake doesn’t know all sets, he might struggle vs this finding out sets (I had a version with chingling before). Grassy terrain + acro shroodle, cmind floon, hazards glimm, sd trail foo and the beast cmind rest salac berry gothita.
I think mu was fine I fished for foongus team. In game Jake played well with mudbray. I also played well except one questionable move. I should have sacked floon vs his foong and sweeped with gothita I was scared he had tera ghost foongus but I don’t think so I prob had to do it and it was insta win. Game ended with a speed tie so I can’t complain about how I played and how the game went, not my fault.
W7 vs eternal spirit (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-883036
https://pokepast.es/722243a7036f7e1e
I just wanted to bring foongus and solid 5 mons + his scout was bad vs hazards so I built around hazards + mixed vulla since shrew could have been annoying + dig-a sweeping + sucker priority. Electric vulla was for electrics and flying mons (especially wingull).
Mu was fine imo and I played really well.
W8 vs tazz (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-884931
https://pokepast.es/722243a7036f7e1e
I didn’t know what to bring honestly it was w8 so it’s normal. I just thought ok let’s reuse last week team and play solid.
This was the first week where I think my mu wasn’t good, we both played well and game probably ended with a 50/50 in the end I still had better odds and not teraing glimmet vs scarf foo was a huge play.
W9 vs Wail Wailord (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-886818
https://pokepast.es/298437fb4edfa2ea
I brought this because nplot tground vulla was good vs him + chou for wingull + elekid usages.
It’s just standard you spin with shrew so you can play with endure vulla and sweep in lategame.
Mu was good imo and we both played well. Fishing scarf shrew worked. This game was important because I let my team going to poffs.
Semifinals vs enigma (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-888137
https://pokepast.es/efaf7299b47fbfe4
For semis I thought I could bring again ttm against him but honestly his scout was hard to understand, I should have brought foongus.
Mu wasn’t good + I should have played better vs mareanie, putting grow-h was a mistake and I had to check t ghost foo since putting it vs my foo instead of mare was sus.
Overall im pretty happy with how I played and how I built. I should have probably had a better result than 6-4 since I wasn’t lucky in some loses but I still think I could have played better especially vs envy.
Last teams I built
These are last teams I built that are updated and I consider solid.
https://pokepast.es/c2bbdfc8f7341f71
First paste is different, it has stalk for grow-h and tspike mare, dgleam toed for vulla. Plan is easy, you click tspikes vs poison mons (better if you catch foongus), if you catch foongus you just send grow-h to sleep and click stalk next turn. If you are lucky you eliminate vulla and then it’s easy setting up and winning with grow-h. If you play vs mareanie, it’s still fine you can catch a vulla switch on mud shot (it depends on the situation).
I don’t have the paste ready for the second team but you could guess sets easily.
https://pokepast.es/6ab3f90933ec95be
Third team plan is easy: spam hazards, click smash, let your oppo click tera vs it, sack it, then nplot vulla should win. Ice shard is for endure nplot vulla, tera rock is for tera water mons. A special set could also work with tera electric (always to catch tera water mons), hpump and ibeam. Roar mud was just a fish, you can change it if you prefer cc (lowering toed’s life).
Enjoy.
Thoughts before scl started
First of all before starting preparing for my oppos in the break week I tried to understand the meta testing everything. I used to build solid teams but passive last year and generally for other tours so I had to change this. This is what I did firstly, ranking all mons:
There are 3 types of good teams imo:
Foo, vulla, foong, mudbray is the best core atm in lc. Last two mons should be fast mons and you can see all combinations that could be good.
Mareanie teams are the second best teams in lc. I’ll prob build more here but for now these are probably fine. Just wondering if stunky grow-h is fine. And for the chespin one nplot vulla is annoying and maybe shrew but overall it seems solid.
Different teams. They are fishy but still good imo. The hail one is really solid. You need to pay attention vs mudbray and vullaby but overall seems solid.
Larvesta one is interesting. It seems passive so I’m not convinced if it’s really good or not, just pay attention vs dig-a.
Shrew dig-a is really offensive as a team. Testing it, it was fine more or less but I’m not convinced overall. Shrew could be annoying.
Sun team I’m not convinced of sun, but that shroodle set is interesting to explore.
Thoughts after scl
That’s what I thought before starting scl, I deleted some cores which were bad imo.
Now I still think the best core is foongus mud vulla foo + 2 fast mons, but mareanie teams improved a lot during and after scl. There are versions with pinch > vulla or wingull + vulla on ttm that could work. About the chespin team I think it’s worse cuz nplot vulla usage increased a lot and that team sucks vs it. As for foongus teams I’d just add versions with shrew + vulla foong foo mudbray + glimm / elekid / dig-a. For crazy teams I’d delete sun and change Larvesta one with gothita larvesta team that is becoming popular lately, and I’d add screens with bpress numel.
Overall I like the meta rn. I really think our lc council managed really well since the start. I might get in trouble saying this but I think we should have banned tera. Banning tera blast (the move) doesn’t fix the problem imo. Suspecting shellder could be ok, banning it could be possible. Rest I think it’s fine.
Take a look on nplot tground vulla, it’s becoming really strong atm.
SCL preparing + replays + teams analysis
Having said this, lemme pass my scl teams / experience.
I did 6-4 and last scl I played lc I did 7-2 which means I did well. I’m still not satisfied about both my scores. Who knows me knows that I hate losing and I’m a perfectionist, so for me losing just one game means I still have to improve.
Week 1 vs starsama (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-869851
https://pokepast.es/a5db90f2c69ef5d8
I built this team because starsama’s teams were just foongus vulla foo mudbray so shrew goes crazy vs this core, especially under hail.
Mudbray is a bit annoying, you need to play well vs it, ebutton koffing to trap shrew checks, slow foo to trap better with gothita. Tera blast fire gothita was for steels.
I think I had a nice mu and I think I played well and deserved to win. I was unlucky with triple axel, there is one questionable play which is on turn 30. Psychic had 50% of killing ebutton koffing, that’s why I didn’t put it but I had to risk that at that point.
W2 vs envy (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-871706
https://pokepast.es/0bd8c614a2d87fde
I built this because envy’s scout was full of elekid / dig-a and ttm that’s why I thought double electrics with orb tgrass elekid would have been good vs him. Spunch chou is just for a priority.
I still think I had a good mu here but this was the game were I played worse, I started well but at some point I needed to tera foo and on turn 41 I had to put Chou and click spunch he would have stayed in.
Week 3 vs enigma (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-874738
https://pokepast.es/dc66cae36bb43c3d
Enigma scout sucked vs hazards so ttm + spin blocker was amazing vs him. Scarf zorua-h for speed with trick and hbeam. Speed tinka for vulla / baloon for dig-a and shrew, tgrass on mare for dig-a + electrics, dragon on vulla for electrics and fire, no ghost because I had zorua-h. Uturn vulla for getting zorua-h in. Water toed is for shellder.
I think I had another good mu as predicted. I played well and deserved to win even if I dropped spdef I still think I had it with recover mareanie. One questionable play was not saving vulla for shellos endgame since I had tera dragon instead of sacking zorua-h but my plan was to not reveal scarf on zorua-h so I could use this team again vs another scl player.
Week 4 vs edgy (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-877712
https://pokepast.es/766520cb97d88bf5
Edgy’s scout was bad vs grow-h and I think grow-h works only on ttm so that’s why I brought again ttm but with grow-h > zorua-h.
Team became pretty popular after that game and it’s still used and still solid.
Again here I had a nice mu and I played really well, spikes carried and dragon vulla closed it.
W5 vs Loki (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-879455
https://pokepast.es/0de3d22c0711ee02
Loki’s scout was bad vs hazards , nplot vulla and scarf shrew so I decided to build it and I absolutely wanted to use foongus.
Another good mu, at this point I knew I had a strong solid vision of the meta, I was really happy about how I was building. Nothing else to say I played really well. Fishing non scarf shrew worked hard.
W6 vs Jake (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-880798
https://pokepast.es/360c87c492e5f708
This team is crazy and I was. I brought this vs Jake because I thought Jake doesn’t know all sets, he might struggle vs this finding out sets (I had a version with chingling before). Grassy terrain + acro shroodle, cmind floon, hazards glimm, sd trail foo and the beast cmind rest salac berry gothita.
I think mu was fine I fished for foongus team. In game Jake played well with mudbray. I also played well except one questionable move. I should have sacked floon vs his foong and sweeped with gothita I was scared he had tera ghost foongus but I don’t think so I prob had to do it and it was insta win. Game ended with a speed tie so I can’t complain about how I played and how the game went, not my fault.
W7 vs eternal spirit (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-883036
https://pokepast.es/722243a7036f7e1e
I just wanted to bring foongus and solid 5 mons + his scout was bad vs hazards so I built around hazards + mixed vulla since shrew could have been annoying + dig-a sweeping + sucker priority. Electric vulla was for electrics and flying mons (especially wingull).
Mu was fine imo and I played really well.
W8 vs tazz (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-884931
https://pokepast.es/722243a7036f7e1e
I didn’t know what to bring honestly it was w8 so it’s normal. I just thought ok let’s reuse last week team and play solid.
This was the first week where I think my mu wasn’t good, we both played well and game probably ended with a 50/50 in the end I still had better odds and not teraing glimmet vs scarf foo was a huge play.
W9 vs Wail Wailord (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-886818
https://pokepast.es/298437fb4edfa2ea
I brought this because nplot tground vulla was good vs him + chou for wingull + elekid usages.
It’s just standard you spin with shrew so you can play with endure vulla and sweep in lategame.
Mu was good imo and we both played well. Fishing scarf shrew worked. This game was important because I let my team going to poffs.
Semifinals vs enigma (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-888137
https://pokepast.es/efaf7299b47fbfe4
For semis I thought I could bring again ttm against him but honestly his scout was hard to understand, I should have brought foongus.
Mu wasn’t good + I should have played better vs mareanie, putting grow-h was a mistake and I had to check t ghost foo since putting it vs my foo instead of mare was sus.
Overall im pretty happy with how I played and how I built. I should have probably had a better result than 6-4 since I wasn’t lucky in some loses but I still think I could have played better especially vs envy.
Last teams I built
These are last teams I built that are updated and I consider solid.
https://pokepast.es/c2bbdfc8f7341f71
First paste is different, it has stalk for grow-h and tspike mare, dgleam toed for vulla. Plan is easy, you click tspikes vs poison mons (better if you catch foongus), if you catch foongus you just send grow-h to sleep and click stalk next turn. If you are lucky you eliminate vulla and then it’s easy setting up and winning with grow-h. If you play vs mareanie, it’s still fine you can catch a vulla switch on mud shot (it depends on the situation).
I don’t have the paste ready for the second team but you could guess sets easily.
https://pokepast.es/6ab3f90933ec95be
Third team plan is easy: spam hazards, click smash, let your oppo click tera vs it, sack it, then nplot vulla should win. Ice shard is for endure nplot vulla, tera rock is for tera water mons. A special set could also work with tera electric (always to catch tera water mons), hpump and ibeam. Roar mud was just a fish, you can change it if you prefer cc (lowering toed’s life).
Enjoy.
Attachments
Last edited:
About Terastallization:
The LC council and leadership have discussed the possibility of banning or suspecting it, but doing so would go against the Smogon SV tiering policy (see: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terastallization-tiering-update.3760202/)
While some of us do not believe that Terastallization is a problem in the metagame at the moment, banning it would put LC’s official tier status at risk (including its inclusion in SCL and Slam). Therefore, despite tko's post we do not think it is worth pursuing.
The possibility of a ban or suspect test was discussed for when SV is no longer the current generation. We are open to revisiting Terastallization at that point, as it would allow for a more flexible approach without the constraints imposed by SV tiering policies.
We're posting a survey to gather broader community feedback. This survey includes questions regarding the potential banning of Shellder, Tera Blast, Gothita and Sleep, as well as the possible unbanning of other Pokémon.
Survey link: https://www.smogon.com/forums/lc-tiering-survey/
The LC council and leadership have discussed the possibility of banning or suspecting it, but doing so would go against the Smogon SV tiering policy (see: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terastallization-tiering-update.3760202/)
While some of us do not believe that Terastallization is a problem in the metagame at the moment, banning it would put LC’s official tier status at risk (including its inclusion in SCL and Slam). Therefore, despite tko's post we do not think it is worth pursuing.
The possibility of a ban or suspect test was discussed for when SV is no longer the current generation. We are open to revisiting Terastallization at that point, as it would allow for a more flexible approach without the constraints imposed by SV tiering policies.
We're posting a survey to gather broader community feedback. This survey includes questions regarding the potential banning of Shellder, Tera Blast, Gothita and Sleep, as well as the possible unbanning of other Pokémon.
Survey link: https://www.smogon.com/forums/lc-tiering-survey/
For too long, the culture of Smogon has been one of no; one where tiering decisions is about justifying why we can’t do something. We should transform it into a culture of how; one where we say we can make change. Just remember that.... those who continue to contribute to this tier in the future. That person ain't gonna be me tho. Heysup's wise words remind me why it's easier to just keep your head down and play the game.
Survey results:
hello good morning
as we can see in the survey, tera blast is what most part of the playerbase who filled the survey consider to be breaking the tier; council will be discussing about it during the week and we could have a suspect test depending on how it goes
as of right now i am against retiering, which is the main reason why the tera blast ban is discussed, mainly because lc followed the path of banning the mons who abuse it instead of the move itself. so we dont have much tera blast users in the meta right now and they aren't considered broken by most part of the playerbase
hello good morning
as we can see in the survey, tera blast is what most part of the playerbase who filled the survey consider to be breaking the tier; council will be discussing about it during the week and we could have a suspect test depending on how it goes
as of right now i am against retiering, which is the main reason why the tera blast ban is discussed, mainly because lc followed the path of banning the mons who abuse it instead of the move itself. so we dont have much tera blast users in the meta right now and they aren't considered broken by most part of the playerbase
I can understand the sentiment behind wanting to remain an official tier and being averse to potential exclusion from major teamtours. It seems obvious that people recognize tera as an issue, though. The question is: is being in big teamtours more important to you than having a good metagame? And should it be?
I've decided we need more forum posts.
One unique trait of LC is trapping.
How to Double Trap
Trapping has been legal for a long time and I am not suggesting that double trap is new. I am suggesting that this should be a new archetype along the lines of the weird teams in this Laroxyl post.
Intro
Oh man, I love this archetype so much. You can get away with some crazy brings with it
Trapping has 3 main components:
1) trappers
--- these are the only trappers and we must run both to double trap. they do different things and we will get to that soon.
2) pivots
(yes, seriously)
--- trap is balanced because it is a momentum sink. pivots get around that through sequencing and damaging mons into KO range from either our abusers or the trappers.
--- different pivots sequence in different ways, so building is customizable.
3) abusers
--- the most important part of the archetype. you should build these first and then work backwards to decide your pivots and trapper sets.
--- the most diverse class with huge shitmon potential.
Trappers
if you're lazy, the auto import sets are fine for this. however that's not how we do things around here.
Gothita
Goth has 3 main sets (and a few sub sets)
Each of these could run timid.
Goths main role is to remove fight resists, mienfoo and mudbray. it can do all 3 with proper support.
Trapinch
Trapinch is the most important pokemon of the core. It has priority, rocks and edgequake coverage to trap all sorts of things. Feint is the most droppable move, but I could see you dropping stone edge. Trapinch's main role is eliminating Vull resists like Tink and Glim.
Pivots
Big surprise mienfoo and vullaby are the best pivots in the tier. This makes them near auto-includes on double trap. However, there are many other pivots in the tier we can use. Double trap is so volatile that it makes many shitmons viable because they are pivots.
Here is a non-exhaustive list in no order:
Abusers
Surprise, surprise these are the top dogs again. One of the strengths of double trap is ambiguity. You never know if foo or vull is a pivot or an abuser (or both!) There are other abusers of course, basically anything. Again a lot of shitmons are viable because they benefit from removing common defensive threats.
How to Build
The easiest way to build double trap is with mienfoo and vullaby.
from there pick a pivot and an abuser and you're set!
There are variations which don't use mienfoo or vullaby but they are less reliable.
How to Play
With double trap your main concern is removing tera and calling it out. Many opponents will use tera to escape traps and calling these out is instrumental to playing double trap. You must be precise and therefore this archetype is not for beginner players.
Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2570127613-mvr06k50n7n35to7nmuqgm2sfpxekxjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2574060887?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2574420115-teomrl8qdsn7tixs3eavgs6kptgb3b2pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2574048609
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2576555878-npk9ktd9bc770nilmp101oa7o6nj9xypw
Teams
https://pokepast.es/6344077d855f26ba
to be continued...
One unique trait of LC is trapping.
How to Double Trap
Trapping has been legal for a long time and I am not suggesting that double trap is new. I am suggesting that this should be a new archetype along the lines of the weird teams in this Laroxyl post.
Intro
Oh man, I love this archetype so much. You can get away with some crazy brings with it
Trapping has 3 main components:
1) trappers
--- these are the only trappers and we must run both to double trap. they do different things and we will get to that soon.
2) pivots
(yes, seriously)--- trap is balanced because it is a momentum sink. pivots get around that through sequencing and damaging mons into KO range from either our abusers or the trappers.
--- different pivots sequence in different ways, so building is customizable.
3) abusers
--- the most important part of the archetype. you should build these first and then work backwards to decide your pivots and trapper sets.
--- the most diverse class with huge shitmon potential.
Trappers
if you're lazy, the auto import sets are fine for this. however that's not how we do things around here.
Gothita
Goth has 3 main sets (and a few sub sets)
Gothita @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
Tera Type: Psychic / Electric / Grass / Dark
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Trick / Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
Tera Type: Psychic / Electric / Grass / Dark
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Trick / Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
Gothita @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
Tera Type: Stellar / Fire / Fighting
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Trick
- Tera Blast
- Energy Ball
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
Tera Type: Stellar / Fire / Fighting
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Trick
- Tera Blast
- Energy Ball
Gothita @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Sleep Talk
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Sleep Talk
Goths main role is to remove fight resists, mienfoo and mudbray. it can do all 3 with proper support.
Trapinch
Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- First Impression
- Feint / Stealth Rock
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- First Impression
- Feint / Stealth Rock
Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 196 Atk / 76 Def / 156 SpA / 76 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Stealth Rock
- First Impression
- Giga Drain
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 196 Atk / 76 Def / 156 SpA / 76 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Stealth Rock
- First Impression
- Giga Drain
Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Stealth Rock
- First Impression
- Tera Blast
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Stealth Rock
- First Impression
- Tera Blast
Pivots
Big surprise mienfoo and vullaby are the best pivots in the tier. This makes them near auto-includes on double trap. However, there are many other pivots in the tier we can use. Double trap is so volatile that it makes many shitmons viable because they are pivots.
Here is a non-exhaustive list in no order:
Abusers
Surprise, surprise these are the top dogs again. One of the strengths of double trap is ambiguity. You never know if foo or vull is a pivot or an abuser (or both!) There are other abusers of course, basically anything. Again a lot of shitmons are viable because they benefit from removing common defensive threats.
How to Build
The easiest way to build double trap is with mienfoo and vullaby.
from there pick a pivot and an abuser and you're set!
There are variations which don't use mienfoo or vullaby but they are less reliable.
How to Play
With double trap your main concern is removing tera and calling it out. Many opponents will use tera to escape traps and calling these out is instrumental to playing double trap. You must be precise and therefore this archetype is not for beginner players.
Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2570127613-mvr06k50n7n35to7nmuqgm2sfpxekxjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2574060887?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2574420115-teomrl8qdsn7tixs3eavgs6kptgb3b2pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2574048609
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2576555878-npk9ktd9bc770nilmp101oa7o6nj9xypw
Teams
https://pokepast.es/6344077d855f26bato be continued...
Last edited:
All of these teams look fun, I hope we get little cup in champions
Chingling @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
- Charge Beam
- Recover
Bumping Chingling for VR (D)
Usecase: Chingling is a crit-me-not sweeper that can set up versus a variety of pokemon including vullaby, trapinch, chinchou and others. it threatens massive damage with Stored Power, or boosts its SpA with Charge Beam. Chingling requires skill in use and heavy support from teammates and therefore should be ranked no higher than D tier. Chingling is weak to crits, mainly. An untimely Tera without your Eviolite can leave Chingling vulnerable to Recover looping, boosting the odds for crit.
This pokemon can win games and there's almost nothing to be done for a well played Chingling.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2624970668-cl3a1vc1xk8fyka63hbb7390ssotil3pw
Last edited:
Sandshrew @ Eviolite
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 116 HP / 76 Atk / 76 Def / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
sandshrew kanto for C rank
sandshrew kanto does more than sand sweeping, it can sometimes be used in place of mudbray; sacrificing some bulk and attack for extra utility in spin, knock and spikes. its so good that I can imagine a world where we run sandshrew kanto instead of mudbray on balance teams. the role compression is hard to come by otherwise.
rules for utility shrew:
1. you must have one of spin knock or spikes. otherwise just run bray.
2. you must run an offensive vullaby check: elekid, glimmet, growlithe hisui.
3. you must run foongus. this is because you don't threaten opp foongus as much with your ground type.
sample teams:
I was looking through the builder for ways to dear with foongus and stumbled upon solosis. Gets overcoat for spore immunity and cm to setup in the shrooms face. Encore allows it to lock foongus into spore, and then calm mind for free. Paired with an insanely high special attack and this mon is hard to deal with. The best set I have atm is cm, encore/recover, any psychic stab, and thunder for vullaby. Probably requires support to deal with np vullaby and physical attackers, but could be quite strong. (Note: I am extremely new to the tier and this is a bit of a hot take but wanted to share it.)
Last edited:
Solosis is interesting because it is pretty much unwallable, but is very slow. Its weakness to Knock off and U-turn is particularly detrimental, so it has very limited opportunities outside of Foongus.
Jangmo-o is a pokemon that is also overlooked, but it has Overcoat too and can also run Bulletproof + Substitute for free setup. It gets Dragon Dance, Outrage, and coverage such as Earthquake. It isn't as threatening before setup as Solosis, but because it can boost its speed it can sweep teams.
23 | Jangmo-o | 2 | 1.98% | 100.00%
It had 100% win rate in LC trio's! (ignore the tiny sample size, I think it's fun)
It had 100% win rate in LC trio's! (ignore the tiny sample size, I think it's fun)
for niche foongus hard counters as alternatives to sd foo jangmo o and goggles shrew are where its at
hi, ive been loving this metagame. ive been building extensively for lclt and lcpl so i have lots of opinions:
this mon is so good. it is the single best speed control in the tier, your team needs to have perfect counterplay into it not to crumble. it forces heavy tera usage, which luckily happens to be good tera types anyway that help vs sandshrew or elekid. it almost invalidates some teams like larvgoth, which cant fit any checks to it. its presence singlehandedly makes gothita way worse in my opinion. in lcpl i couldnt leave home without a growlithe in my team, and it paid off big time.
vs we had been favoring mareanie coming into this lcpl. lots of ttm teams with a really good winrate. however, we have seen different ways that players have adapted to that. offensive mienfoo sets, like sd or reckless, larvgoth teams and numel teams (replays below) are all new tech that give the ttm cores a lot of trouble.
on the other side of the coin, i realized through the course of this tournament that foongus tends to be really good in endgames. its ability to stay healthy long enough and its defensive synergy with mienfoo make it so some games tend to end up in a foongus + mienfoo vs the world, where surprisngly the foongus user ends up winning because of its bulk + spore + tera. this is the reason ive come to prefer foongus over mareanie, it wins games.
vs 
vs ive also come to the conclusion that tinkatink is the single best vullaby check, and glimmet is by far the worst. tinkatink has a huge variety of support moves and spread + item combinations, and its definitely the most difficult mon to ko of the three. you might get games where tera fairy draining kiss just sweeps the opposing team. ive become fond of pairing it with foongus and a fire type countermon like trapinch. mudbray is kinda in the same spot as always, its a vull check that doubles as an electric check, but its only average at doing both. glimmet, on the other hand, its a mediocre mon that happens to check vullaby better than mudbray, but so does tink which checks more mons like sandshrew too, so there is few reason to use it unless its on larvgoth teams that need a poison type.
this is like the third time straight i talk about the ghosts, but they are so good. ive been spamming them in these tours, and they always perform. all three take on different roles, but also all take advantage of ghost being the best stab in the game and they block spin. drifloon can either be a good support piece with wisp for np vull/shrew or be a cm sweeper, zorua is a really good scarfer thats faster than growlithe and gimmighoul is a life orb breaker with a really spammable stab. ive used drifloon twice in lclt, and zorua once in lcpl, all wins. ghosts are super good.
i think offensive sets are really good currently. either solo sd with uturn or full on sub sd tera steel. they dont fit most teams tho, you do need support, but if you get it, mienfoo turns into probably the scariest pokemon in the tier. see my games in lcpl vs tandaman, sammyce123 in semis and greedy in finals for a showcase of 3 mienfoos winning by simply using sd
this mon is so good. it is the single best speed control in the tier, your team needs to have perfect counterplay into it not to crumble. it forces heavy tera usage, which luckily happens to be good tera types anyway that help vs sandshrew or elekid. it almost invalidates some teams like larvgoth, which cant fit any checks to it. its presence singlehandedly makes gothita way worse in my opinion. in lcpl i couldnt leave home without a growlithe in my team, and it paid off big time. vs we had been favoring mareanie coming into this lcpl. lots of ttm teams with a really good winrate. however, we have seen different ways that players have adapted to that. offensive mienfoo sets, like sd or reckless, larvgoth teams and numel teams (replays below) are all new tech that give the ttm cores a lot of trouble. sd foo beating ttm: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-957613
reckless foo beating ttm: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2621459745-8jr53vnq6bj5bf45lh8vja528l9l55dpw
reckless foo beating ttm: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2621459745-8jr53vnq6bj5bf45lh8vja528l9l55dpw
vs vs ive also come to the conclusion that tinkatink is the single best vullaby check, and glimmet is by far the worst. tinkatink has a huge variety of support moves and spread + item combinations, and its definitely the most difficult mon to ko of the three. you might get games where tera fairy draining kiss just sweeps the opposing team. ive become fond of pairing it with foongus and a fire type countermon like trapinch. mudbray is kinda in the same spot as always, its a vull check that doubles as an electric check, but its only average at doing both. glimmet, on the other hand, its a mediocre mon that happens to check vullaby better than mudbray, but so does tink which checks more mons like sandshrew too, so there is few reason to use it unless its on larvgoth teams that need a poison type. this is like the third time straight i talk about the ghosts, but they are so good. ive been spamming them in these tours, and they always perform. all three take on different roles, but also all take advantage of ghost being the best stab in the game and they block spin. drifloon can either be a good support piece with wisp for np vull/shrew or be a cm sweeper, zorua is a really good scarfer thats faster than growlithe and gimmighoul is a life orb breaker with a really spammable stab. ive used drifloon twice in lclt, and zorua once in lcpl, all wins. ghosts are super good. i think offensive sets are really good currently. either solo sd with uturn or full on sub sd tera steel. they dont fit most teams tho, you do need support, but if you get it, mienfoo turns into probably the scariest pokemon in the tier. see my games in lcpl vs tandaman, sammyce123 in semis and greedy in finals for a showcase of 3 mienfoos winning by simply using sd
SV LC is a meta that is largely competitively fine but I find to lack anything that makes its gameplay and preparation process interesting. Ive come to peace with all gens of LC besides SM, but still find this tier so uninteresting both from a player and builder pov. I was pretty okay with just going yeah I dont like SV its not my problem throughout LCPL until I had to actually take charge in playoffs to stop my teams pretty poor SV campaign. I consider myself pretty largely qualified to be able to actually talk about the tier since when I got both Gondra and Lady Writer an SV win in playoffs when I had to intervene with our prep.
Quick summary of all of my problems with the tier as is
Quick summary of all of my problems with the tier as is
- Most games are insanely flowcharty. Builds are (largely) forced to follow the same structures because of the threats to deal with in the metagame
- Mienfoo is broken and we should stop pretending it isn't. If anyone wants to argue about why SV Mienfoo in particular is broken it benefits pretty disproportionally from Tera compared to any other mon
- I will never not complain about Gothita. I don't care that it matches up poorly into Growlithe teams. Anyone who is satisfied that their Mienfoo check can just vanish if you get a turn wrong is kinda wild
These are who I blame for the tiers current evil state
See above
Swords Dance sets are broken and can grab you an instawin depending on the set and how competent the player piloting it is. It is also the single best mon at using Tera defensively even with normal sets. This is the main culprit for flowcharty gameplay
Plot is kinda stupid. Tera Blast being banned would have made it a little more managable to limit its set variety but such is life. Physical Vullaby is a more than fine presence in the tier and on most structures is largely bad. Meta probably sucks and it will be more of a Mienfoo slopfest if its gone but I suppose that isnt too different from what I see the tier as right now
Other thoughts
TTM being nearly as popular as it is while being such a flimsy structure has to be a bad sign
I find Foongus teams to be pretty terrible despite what Eric will claim above. They match up poorly into Growlithe teams because they cant pack a natural Fire resist. Same largely applies for Snowshrew but thats just because Foongus in particular gives it more entry points. Not even to mention the natural autolose factor it has vs SubSD Mienfoo
Start of the tour I kinda preached it but Stone Edge Mienfoo is so easy to slap on teams that I just don't think its worth it anymore. Mareanie seems to be the least flawed out of all the fightchecks yet it is the most vulnerable to Gothita
Trapinch is fine but its tempo is so poor vs Mudbray teams and vs the intended targets it feels like you are playing catchup
See above Swords Dance sets are broken and can grab you an instawin depending on the set and how competent the player piloting it is. It is also the single best mon at using Tera defensively even with normal sets. This is the main culprit for flowcharty gameplay Plot is kinda stupid. Tera Blast being banned would have made it a little more managable to limit its set variety but such is life. Physical Vullaby is a more than fine presence in the tier and on most structures is largely bad. Meta probably sucks and it will be more of a Mienfoo slopfest if its gone but I suppose that isnt too different from what I see the tier as right now Other thoughts
TTM being nearly as popular as it is while being such a flimsy structure has to be a bad sign I find Foongus teams to be pretty terrible despite what Eric will claim above. They match up poorly into Growlithe teams because they cant pack a natural Fire resist. Same largely applies for Snowshrew but thats just because Foongus in particular gives it more entry points. Not even to mention the natural autolose factor it has vs SubSD Mienfoo Start of the tour I kinda preached it but Stone Edge Mienfoo is so easy to slap on teams that I just don't think its worth it anymore. Mareanie seems to be the least flawed out of all the fightchecks yet it is the most vulnerable to Gothita Trapinch is fine but its tempo is so poor vs Mudbray teams and vs the intended targets it feels like you are playing catchup
I've not been as focused on SV LC recently, but am still active building and playing it.
: Mienfoo should be on more than 90% of teams, so it gets its own tier. Fast pivot set is the standard, but slow pivot, offensive pivot, SD pivot, Sub SD, and Scarf are all good. Mienfoo has a ton of versatility with its 4th move slot, because Knock Off + U-turn + HJK do the heavy lifting.
: I considered putting Vullaby in S tier, but it isn't mandatory like Mienfoo is. Naughty Heat Wave is the easiest set to fit because it is a great lead, but with even a little team support Vullaby can do so much more. Jolly/Adamant work well when Heat Wave isn't necessary, Nasty Plot might be broken, and Scarf is okay too. Vullaby has the best stab combination, and a ton of options to fill the 3rd and 4th moveslots. Basically if Vullaby is bad just trade it turn 1 and you'll still get good value
: Elekid might not have as high reward as other offensive threats, but it requires almost no maintenance to fit on a team. Foongus has spore, and a great defensive typing.
- Mudbray is a strong breaker and elite at trading, but worse at countering Vullaby. Tinkatink reliably counters physical Vullaby multiple times and has the best typing in the game, but is passive compared to the other rockers. Glimmet has an amazing ability and hits like a truck, and is the most likely to be successful when countering Vullaby once. Glimmet forces the most specific lines from the opponent, but has bad longevity and isn't able to trade vs as much as Mudbray. All 3 options set rocks reliably and are passable counters against Vullaby.
: it's that time of the year where people are slandering Stunky. I think Stunky is unspectacular but has no bad matchups if it runs good sets. Sucker punch in particular is important for pressuring choice scarfers and elekid, which are generally more common than Substitute Life Orb pokemon right now. Eviolite Stunky is the fattest speed control option and therefore the best at trading, and Life Orb just exerts insane pressure and has Sucker Punch in exchange for a worse speed tier than other LO threats. Terablast Ground is a really cool option, but I'm the only one who uses it.
: Toedscool is better than a-, except for the fact that Vullaby is an amazing spin blocker if it has heat wave. Growlithe is a+ good, but the rocks weakness is a severe limitation and defog vull just won't cut it imo. For some reason that I do not understand, people drop fire resists, which inflate Growlithe-hisui's value a lot.
: Snover + Ashrew are scary to play against, and so I'm ranking snover unreasonably high.
I think most of the B tiers can be good, I just don't know how to use them.
: Mienfoo should be on more than 90% of teams, so it gets its own tier. Fast pivot set is the standard, but slow pivot, offensive pivot, SD pivot, Sub SD, and Scarf are all good. Mienfoo has a ton of versatility with its 4th move slot, because Knock Off + U-turn + HJK do the heavy lifting.: I considered putting Vullaby in S tier, but it isn't mandatory like Mienfoo is. Naughty Heat Wave is the easiest set to fit because it is a great lead, but with even a little team support Vullaby can do so much more. Jolly/Adamant work well when Heat Wave isn't necessary, Nasty Plot might be broken, and Scarf is okay too. Vullaby has the best stab combination, and a ton of options to fill the 3rd and 4th moveslots. Basically if Vullaby is bad just trade it turn 1 and you'll still get good value : Elekid might not have as high reward as other offensive threats, but it requires almost no maintenance to fit on a team. Foongus has spore, and a great defensive typing. - Mudbray is a strong breaker and elite at trading, but worse at countering Vullaby. Tinkatink reliably counters physical Vullaby multiple times and has the best typing in the game, but is passive compared to the other rockers. Glimmet has an amazing ability and hits like a truck, and is the most likely to be successful when countering Vullaby once. Glimmet forces the most specific lines from the opponent, but has bad longevity and isn't able to trade vs as much as Mudbray. All 3 options set rocks reliably and are passable counters against Vullaby.: it's that time of the year where people are slandering Stunky. I think Stunky is unspectacular but has no bad matchups if it runs good sets. Sucker punch in particular is important for pressuring choice scarfers and elekid, which are generally more common than Substitute Life Orb pokemon right now. Eviolite Stunky is the fattest speed control option and therefore the best at trading, and Life Orb just exerts insane pressure and has Sucker Punch in exchange for a worse speed tier than other LO threats. Terablast Ground is a really cool option, but I'm the only one who uses it. : Toedscool is better than a-, except for the fact that Vullaby is an amazing spin blocker if it has heat wave. Growlithe is a+ good, but the rocks weakness is a severe limitation and defog vull just won't cut it imo. For some reason that I do not understand, people drop fire resists, which inflate Growlithe-hisui's value a lot.: Snover + Ashrew are scary to play against, and so I'm ranking snover unreasonably high.I think most of the B tiers can be good, I just don't know how to use them.
I don't agree with all of the details, but I do agree that Mienfoo is overpowered. The fact that Mienfoo's counters don't even dependably get an advantage in a 1v1 says a lot about Mienfoo. High Jump Kick + regen prevents pokemon that aren't resists or Vullaby from being able to trade with it, and knock off both forces healing turns and makes long term progress against its counters. And this isn't even factoring in the offensive sets, which can overwhelm foongus and mareanie immediately.SV LC is a meta that is largely competitively fine but I find to lack anything that makes its gameplay and preparation process interesting. Ive come to peace with all gens of LC besides SM, but still find this tier so uninteresting both from a player and builder pov. I was pretty okay with just going yeah I dont like SV its not my problem throughout LCPL until I had to actually take charge in playoffs to stop my teams pretty poor SV campaign. I consider myself pretty largely qualified to be able to actually talk about the tier since when I got both Gondra and Lady Writer an SV win in playoffs when I had to intervene with our prep.
Quick summary of all of my problems with the tier as is
- Most games are insanely flowcharty. Builds are (largely) forced to follow the same structures because of the threats to deal with in the metagame
- Mienfoo is broken and we should stop pretending it isn't. If anyone wants to argue about why SV Mienfoo in particular is broken it benefits pretty disproportionally from Tera compared to any other mon
- I will never not complain about Gothita. I don't care that it matches up poorly into Growlithe teams. Anyone who is satisfied that their Mienfoo check can just vanish if you get a turn wrong is kinda wild
These are who I blame for the tiers current evil state
Other thoughts
I support a Mienfoo suspect because I think that Mienfoo is and has been broken in sv lc. Especially the sub SD sets.
Chiming in to support a Mienfoo suspect. My position on the matter is probably not as valuable as that of the council ones, but I built a lot for our thriving SV core during LCPL and I think Mienfoo is easily the most restricting factor of the tier, and that + Vullaby seems to be the main reason why most peoples structures are limited to as few mons as we are currently seeing. SV currently has the smallest pool of seemingly relevant mons, with most weeks of LCPL bar week 7 having SV tie the previous gens or have less variety across 12 games a week compared to their 4 games a week (Bw, my beloved, being the only of the classical post-DPP gens that actually shows less variety). It seems that most of us, me included, are trapped in a cyclical way of approaching building heavily revolved around particularly Mienfoo and Vullaby this gen, as well as the ease-of-use TTM builds and just reusing certain well know structures swapping your poison type or the 6th slot on Groundspam. With Mienfoo being a blanket check to everything, especially with Tera, while also being one of the most prominent offensive breakers in the tier, the mon does too much in one slot and has become the nuissance it was in Ss Post-Vull, where it too was the single most effective offensive and defensive tool in the same slot with the same set.Now while I'm still tired of seeing the same 17 speed Fake Out renegade every single match, that set and idea is generally not broken. While I'd still be on board with banning that just to spice up the metagame and make it more fun again, as it is not a particularly healthy part of the metagame, it is fine to an extent. Where I think Mienfoo truly thrives is with the flexibility of that last slot, which can easily win games early or later on by just adding a set-up move or a bait move. I do however think that, if your build allows it, the true power of Mienfoo shows when you build round the more offensive ideas. Choice Scarf + Trapping allows it to deal with all two(!!) of its most common counters easily enough and ScarfGoth is not even a reliable punish with Reckless with Jolly Tera Fight having a 31% to KO after Rocks and Adamant Tera Fight having a 62% to KO after Rocks. With the Steel SD sets being mentioned above, Mienfoo can just cut the middle man and straight up set up on its most common counters. While with Choice Scarf you can argue that the problematic part is Gothita, SD Sets with Tera and Sub or similar moves still sets up easily enough in the face of most Foongus and Mareanie, and getting rid of Gothita instead would just prolong the wait before we inevitably have to take a close look at our lovechild as well.
I also think that NP Vullaby is rather limiting while in match, having to preserve specific mons at high health (Often having to preserve Tera as well), but in the builder specifically it has multiple good checks so I'm not sure if it's actually limiting or just an annoyance in the field. Would love if we did end up taking a look at that as well though, but while some have expressed concern over Vullaby being too much for the tier once Mienfoo is gone (How so I don't really understand), I'm still reminiscent of the good old pre-DLC Gen 8 days where Vullaby was a healthy part of a metagame with no Mienfoo in sight. Since Colin did as well, I figured I'd drop my personal VR too to show how warped I think the tier has become around Mienfoo and Vullaby, as well as our general mindsets. I think putting Foongus and Mareanie anywhere below A+ is kind of foolish, as while I do agree that both of them technically performs to that kind of level, you and I would absolutely never leave home without either of the two in your team, bar that one time you're bringing the Gothita + Larvesta team. When it comes to Vullaby checks we thankfully have a few more options to play with, but I still think Tinkatink is the absolute best one as it shuts down any physical variation without a specific Tera Blast or mixed Heat Wave multiple times across the game, and is the safest way to deal with Nasty Plot Vullabys with 16 Speed Encore, making it the most reliable option into both. I would, however, a little contrary to my points, give a big shoutout to Terracotta who built less than half of his teams with an actual dedicated Mienfoo answer, and not only making it work but actually thriving in his pool, finishing 6-2 after an unfortunate semifinals game. Now obviously he always had ways to deal with the mon, but I think most of us could make a good exercise of trying to actually build like that without the dedicated Poison-Type slot on every single team. Food for thoughts anyways.Other Thoughts:
I think TTM is horseshit. This is gonna seem really weird as plenty of you probably feel like that's one of the best structures in your arsenal, but I think it's generally too passive to fit all 3 together and it doesn't take much coverage to get through them reliably. I think at most pairing 2 of the 3 together is the best way to do it, and this was reflected in all our builds from this LCPL with our total TTM bring-count being 3 while our SV Starters had a total of combined 5 losses across all tour (With hxmo as a sub racking up a respectable 2-1 record, his only loss being one of the TTM brings) with @Kabooms only main season loss being with TTM. I think our core succeeded mainly because Midas, Sammy and Larry are absolute legends, but I do also think they were given an upper hand in that they were using teams with more offensive pressure that easily preyed on any TTM thrown their way. We had the same ideology back in LCPL 13, where we also had one of the best performing SV cores (That time to win the tour), and while I do somewhat agree with Midas that the addition of Mud Shot Modest Mareanie has improved the core, I do still think that it is a throw in the builder and something that looks a lot better on paper than it actually is in-match. Do also note that the person complaining about that core being passive is also the guy who has Slowpoke in B on the VR. They all have individual traits that can gain progress across a match, but with how people are hyper-aware of the relevance of the core it's too easy to slap on specific moves to either deny that progress or deny the core as a whole, something made especially easy due to the linearity of play within current LC (as alluded to by Hacker in an above post). I think Grookey is a sick mon, specifically the Giga Drain set I've been spamming in Majors and the whatever the past tour I joined and played SV in was. The longevity provided by the constant healing of Terrain + Giga Drain (With a boosted power), as well as the many openings to come in provided by opposing Mudbray / Diglett / Toedscool / Elekid makes it such a menace to play against. Not having to worry about Weak Armor boosts on switch-in is also really nice, and late-game Tera Poison to just wall the entire tier while constantly healing up is such a wonderful feeling.
Last edited:
i agree with you there, but banning foo would make games even MORE flowcharty
this is because foo is a very flexible pokemon. In game, the best way to use it is never obvious. It can soft check lots of different things, so you have to decide when exactly is the best time to bring it in, what are the best things to trade it with or save it for, etc. There are often non-obvious paths where you can regen it up, or use it to pivot another pokemon in. lots of possibilities
in other words, using foo optimally is a difficult thing to master and that makes games more interesting to play; it allows for more skill expression and you get rewarded for playing it well.
most other pokemon are easier to use because they have a more clear purpose. for example, it’s usually obvious that you want to use mudbray as your vullaby counter (and this is what causes games to feel “flowcharty”)
back in SS, we banned vullaby which, like foo, is also a very flexible pokemon. This caused games to become more linear, and that’s a big reason why we had to revert the ban. There’s a good chance that banning foo would have a similar effect in SV
lcpl usage stats foo is in every team (1 exception being crabrawler) and has a high impact in all of them. if we agree games are flowcharty/linear it is incredibly more likely than not foo is at least part of the problem there if we consider it a problem to begin with
i agree with the entire thought here that foo is a very flexible mon (with its traditional set) but where i think you miss the mark is how people choose to respond to it. foo outlasts everything on the field due to regen and clicking knock + u turn.
this means people either choose to use their own regen to try to survive vs foo longterm (foong/mare), punish it with contact and pray you dont die to stone edge (larv), or try to take offensive trades into it with stuff like mudbray. offensive trades are usually disadvantageous due to mienfoo being able to pivot out and outlast them. entire point being here the options to deal with mienfoo are very limited because of its toolkit
though id also like to differentiate what makes sv so different than every other gen of lc where i consider foo completely unproblematic. in oldgens we have a lot more threats that can punish foo when it chooses to do anything besides just pivot with threats like the psychic types, gastly, and juice making vullaby a better offensive check to stuff as you heal back up without wasting a turn. next, tera is a direct invitation for it to bypass counterplay. subsd tera steel mienfoo had a very good showing this lcpl with an 85% winrate and that just completely bypasses foongus as counterplay. your post isnt exactly a foo is broken / isnt broken one just about challenging my opinion that foo makes games flowcharty but i do believe sv is genuinely a unique case where foo may be hitting the mark on broken. and i fail to see how to not label foo as whats causing the current state of gameplay if it is a 100% usage mon
i dont think being a flexible pokemon itself is what makes games linear. unlike foo, vullaby doesnt just trade positively into everything because of knock off and regen. foos clicks are often very less unpunished for making poor decisions. for example lets say vullaby gets faked out at lead, if you knock off after predicting a check to come in and the opponent stays in thats quite poor and you get punished heavily for it. the same thing doesnt happen with foo because it can just heal off the damage to make up for it and it still did something. every game the vull user has to specifically choose what their vullaby will be doing in the match while with foo it is a relevant pokemon during all stages of the game
Obligatory mediocre player weighing in here
Let’s say Mienfoo is the problem. I do not believe banning it immediately is the solution. Normally I could not care less about what tournament is going on because I believe tiering and a format’s health should come first. However, I think a mienfoo ban will fundamentally change how the tier is played to the point that it does not make sense to rush that change before SCL. I think immediately after finals or even like during semis so it won’t affect finals we could test mienfoo. That way if it ends up banned we have plenty of time to adjust without having to worry about getting the tier to a playable state before SCL. We will probably have another SCL of SV so if mienfoo is banned we would still have that meta in SCL.
Why Mienfoo ban might be a bad direction:
To be honest I have no idea how to fix this tier. I think a Tera blast ban would have been a good start. I’m not going to get into the weeds of Tera and Tera blast because I don’t want to derail this conversation. I would rather see a gothita suspect and see how that impacts mienfoo before making the jump to removing something that has been a metagame staple since it was introduced.
Idk TLDR wait till after SCL and maybe do goth first
Let’s say Mienfoo is the problem. I do not believe banning it immediately is the solution. Normally I could not care less about what tournament is going on because I believe tiering and a format’s health should come first. However, I think a mienfoo ban will fundamentally change how the tier is played to the point that it does not make sense to rush that change before SCL. I think immediately after finals or even like during semis so it won’t affect finals we could test mienfoo. That way if it ends up banned we have plenty of time to adjust without having to worry about getting the tier to a playable state before SCL. We will probably have another SCL of SV so if mienfoo is banned we would still have that meta in SCL.
Why Mienfoo ban might be a bad direction:
To be honest I have no idea how to fix this tier. I think a Tera blast ban would have been a good start. I’m not going to get into the weeds of Tera and Tera blast because I don’t want to derail this conversation. I would rather see a gothita suspect and see how that impacts mienfoo before making the jump to removing something that has been a metagame staple since it was introduced.
Idk TLDR wait till after SCL and maybe do goth first