Project Metagame Workshop (OM Submissions CLOSED)

[Byleth]

Camo Moves
Formerly Reliablemons (if the name is too confusing with Camo Mons, very open to other suggestions)
​

Metagame premise: The typing of the move in the first move slot is changed to the mon's primary type. For dual typed mons, the typing of the move in the second move slot is changed to the mon's secondary type.

Potential bans and threats: I would envision this as an OU-based metagame with standard OU clauses. There are several threats to consider:

Mons missing one (or both) reliable STABs: Several OU staples like Lando-T, Tapu Bulu and Koko, and Dragonite are unable to reliably use one of their STAB typings. They should become much more threatening, and worth keeping an eye on.
Priority in general, Extreme Speed in particular: All E-Speed mons now have access to STAB on it. This is the element I think would most likely be suspectable/bannable.
U-Turn/Volt Switch: U-Turn is an amazing move with wide distribution, but awful typing. Now it can be any typing, and will come with STAB. Volt Switch can also be run as another type to prevent Ground types from absorbing it.
Thunder Wave/Rapid Spin/etc: Common support moves like Thunder Wave and Rapid Spin have common immunities; now you have the option of removing those. Note, apparently Normalize Toxic still does not poison Steel/Poison mons, so I am assuming other type Toxic will still not work on them.
Moves with good secondary effects: Body Slam has a wonderful 30% para chance, but it's coverage is poor. Some mons, even with good STABs, may look to replace it with Body Slam for the status effect.

Questions for the community: I do think there are some important questions that need to be answered.

Will the metagame be too offensive? Offensive mons stand to gain a lot in this meta, while defensive mons really don't get much from changing the typing of their moves. Is there a way to balance this, or do we just need to accept that it will be an offensive meta?
Is there too much hidden information? All metas have some degree of hidden information, but usually once you have scouted the moveset, you know exactly what you're dealing with. That is not the case here; if the opposing Lando-T hits your Swampert with U-Turn, you do not know if it's running Ground or Flying U-Turn (or even Bug if you're too lazy to calc). You could even see situations like Tapu Koko switching the typing of Thunderbolt and Dazzling Gleam on its Choice sets to confuse switchins. Do we want to allow this, or should we look into a way to reveal typings when moves are used?
Is Extreme Speed/Dragonite/Lando-T/anything else quick-bannable? They all stand to gain a lot, but I would ideally like to keep the banlist lean to start unless anything is obviously broken.
Are there any unbans to consider? My first instinct is no, as obviously nothing gets worse in this meta. However, Cinderace, Urshifu, and Spectrier don't gain very much in this mechanic and may be worth considering.

Discordual cause he's been talking with me about this, please add on anything I missed. I would love feedback or suggestions for improvements!

Click to collapse...

Bit of a lenghty one, but heya UnnerfTalonflame! Love the idea of this OM, although I can personally understand the hesitant/broken elements. As you have pointed out, moves like U-Turn, Volt Switch, and Extreme Speed are all really, really pushing the limit with this meta and I'd even go as far to say that these should all be considered for an immediate ban, but to comprehend that let's get a better understanding of why.
:Rillaboom: :Landorus-Therian: :Dragapult: :Zapdos-Galar: U-Turn: To list a few, these mon's become arguably over-centralizing with U-Turn, requiring specific defensive pivots to deal with each one of these individually. Basically, since you don't have to use bug non-stab U-turn all the time, you can turn this into one of your main stabs and flatten most switchins that don't resist, and gaining momentum while doing it which brings me worries about potential Volt Turn cores. Let's take Dragapult for example, and say we slap a Choice Band on it with Ghost Type U-Turn against popular defensive pivots to abuse the lack of Ghost Type resists...

Banded Ghost U-Turn Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO This is OK
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 114-135 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO chip you do not get back as they've gained momentum.
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 195-229 (53.8 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO outdamages regen
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 135-160 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- 87.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery considerably strong chip, + gaining momentum.
(Obviously Dragapult itself is problematic but I don't think it's a huge stretch to compare it to other U-Turn users)

What this would cause I believe is a meta where offensive pivots race to whittle each team down first since it is super easy to gain momentum while doing worthwhile damage and the limited way to deal with stuff like this (rocky helm pex arguably sounds the safest bet out of any of these, but keep in mind stuff like Elec U-Turn Koko, an even stronger fish compared to special koko mind you, CB Grass Rilla, CB Psychic Tini, etc can out damage regen) is usually outplayed because momentum is still gained on them and opening up a team to breakers much more quickly with relatively little counterplay.

:zapdos: :thundurus: Volt Switch: I could see this being a little less problematic since the abusers for this are not all THAT great, but Flying Volt Switch Zapdos/Thundurus could prove really annoying in the long run with no way to block this momentum as well, removing an essential counter play to these mons IMO.
252 SpA Choice Specs Thundurus-I Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Hippowdon: 148-175 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- 80% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
For example, we have a SPDEF Hippowdon here to block volt switching, but to it's surprise, it now takes a significant amount of chip upon switching in, AND is likely in on an unfavorable mon now. Walls to a set like this such as Slowking-Galar and Blissey aren't safe because of how volt switch traditionally works: you bring in something that threatens them (who also might have a really strong U-turn, forcing you into a repeated cycle much more easily than U-turn would allow it).

:barraskewda: :kabutops: Flip Turn: Most are Water type and the one's that aren't are mediocre at using it, so nothing much to say here.

:dragonite: :lucario: :zygarde-10: :entei: : Extreme Speed is simply too strong of an offensive tool, but if I had an actual choice of whether this or the pivot moves are more broken, it would probably be the latter. Extreme Speed is easier to prep for on certain archetypes like fat at least, and unlike changing the type of U-Turn, you can actually attempt to check these. The problem is the amount of revenge killing potential they bring to the table, and this should not be understated. With things like Entei, Dragonite, Lucario, and Zydog in the meta, offenses may find themselves to be a bit too constricted trying to build against a mon that can force out most of the meta, prime offender Flying Dnite for example. I think looking at the strong Espeed users might be beneficial here at first, Steel Fire Ground/Dragon + the users aren't exactly as lethal as Flying, so I'm interested to see where these end up.

:urshifu: :cinderace: :spectrier: From an unban standpoint, I think Urshifu is a hard no because of very little to help it's already restricting defensive counterplay, making builds require fat regen clef core's to handle it, while also gaining STAB Dark U-turn to chip non regen checks for pretty mad damage. Spectrier and Cinderace kind of fall under the same boat for me, anything outside of these is also likely a hard no as the closest I could even think of would be, Magearna with different types of stored power, unblockable steel Volt Switch for Specs sets.

:excadrill: :jirachi: :slowbro: The amount of viable spinners seems relatively low, and Thunder Wave still has a good amount of counterplay in status absorbers like Elecs, Nat Cure Bliss so I think these things, while improved, aren't over the top or anything. Something that raises my eye (not as broken or anything) could be Future Sight, but with another typing as pretty cool utility.

And to not forget, the element of surprise in this meta isn't too major IMO. There are plenty of situations where you will be able to deduce what type a move is by general scouting (say your example of Lando, you could easily fit a corviknight/rotom/etc on your team to figure out what move is flying/Ground), or general knowledge or meta trends (scarf lando will probably prioritize Flying U-Turn over Ground due to no immunity and better net coverage because of that). For mons of a single typing, this is no problem at all and figuring out which moves have changed types and which hasn't also isn't difficult because of damage rolls/potential type advantage/disadvantage give aways.

I think outside of this (from an initial look), the meta seems to have a very fun concept although I would recommend a change in the name, as Camo moves sounds a bit too similar to Camomons itself, although I'm interested to see what a different name would be. The meta will probably also favor offense by nature naturally seeing as defensive mons don't gain as much benefit as an offensive mon with a strong stab attack itself, and that is fine as long as you work to tone the offense down a bit as I do feel things would be a bit chaos with the whole pivot/dnite stuff.

Overall, I think you guys are on the right track, definitely something that would spark OMs!
(Reminder that this is just my take, take these how you want)

set drop to maybe spark more discussion:

Cool stuff not an actual team

:dragapult: Dragapult @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge (Dragon)
- U-turn (Ghost)
- Dragon Darts
- Sucker Punch

:slowbro: Slowbro @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Future Sight (Water)
- Teleport (Psychic)
- Scald
- Slack Off

:thundurus-therian: Thundurus (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Bomb (Electric)
- Volt Switch (Flying)
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off

:tapu koko: Tapu Koko @ Choice Band
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn (Electric)
- Brave Bird (Fairy)
- Wild Charge
- Roost

:landorus-therian: Landorus-Therian (M) @ Soft Sand
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake (Ground)
- Knock Off (Flying)
- Gravity
- Swords Dance

:tornadus-therian: Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Bomb (Flying)
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Defog

 

[UT]

Thanks to everyone who responded! I love the feedback.

:toxtricity:
Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Boomburst
- Volt Switch
- Filler
Ah yes,Toxtricity with STAB Boomburst.Hyper Voice is a small increase in power from Overdrive and Poison type Boomburst with STAB and Punk Rock hits really,really hard.You could also run Scarf over Specs to be a nice revenge killer and cleaner.

Click to collapse...

Boomburst is a move I completely missed, good catch. Looking through the potential abusers, Noivern is the one that scares me the most and belongs on the watchlist, at least. I think I would be leaning towards allowing Boomburst to be free at the start, and seeing if just Noivern is the problem, Boomburst is, or actually both elements are healthy,

:Rillaboom: :Landorus-Therian: :Dragapult: :Zapdos-Galar: U-Turn: To list a few, these mon's become arguably over-centralizing with U-Turn, requiring specific defensive pivots to deal with each one of these individually. Basically, since you don't have to use bug non-stab U-turn all the time, you can turn this into one of your main stabs and flatten most switchins that don't resist, and gaining momentum while doing it which brings me worries about potential Volt Turn cores. Let's take Dragapult for example, and say we slap a Choice Band on it with Ghost Type U-Turn against popular defensive pivots to abuse the lack of Ghost Type resists...

Banded Ghost U-Turn Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO This is OK
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 114-135 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO chip you do not get back as they've gained momentum.
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 195-229 (53.8 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO outdamages regen
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 135-160 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- 87.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery considerably strong chip, + gaining momentum.
(Obviously Dragapult itself is problematic but I don't think it's a huge stretch to compare it to other U-Turn users)

What this would cause I believe is a meta where offensive pivots race to whittle each team down first since it is super easy to gain momentum while doing worthwhile damage and the limited way to deal with stuff like this (rocky helm pex arguably sounds the safest bet out of any of these, but keep in mind stuff like Elec U-Turn Koko, an even stronger fish compared to special koko mind you, CB Grass Rilla, CB Psychic Tini, etc can out damage regen) is usually outplayed because momentum is still gained on them and opening up a team to breakers much more quickly with relatively little counterplay.

:zapdos: :thundurus: Volt Switch: I could see this being a little less problematic since the abusers for this are not all THAT great, but Flying Volt Switch Zapdos/Thundurus could prove really annoying in the long run with no way to block this momentum as well, removing an essential counter play to these mons IMO.
252 SpA Choice Specs Thundurus-I Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Hippowdon: 148-175 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- 80% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
For example, we have a SPDEF Hippowdon here to block volt switching, but to it's surprise, it now takes a significant amount of chip upon switching in, AND is likely in on an unfavorable mon now. Walls to a set like this such as Slowking-Galar and Blissey aren't safe because of how volt switch traditionally works: you bring in something that threatens them (who also might have a really strong U-turn, forcing you into a repeated cycle much more easily than U-turn would allow it).

:barraskewda: :kabutops: Flip Turn: Most are Water type and the one's that aren't are mediocre at using it, so nothing much to say here.

Click to collapse...

I think U-Turn is pretty clearly unhealthy and probably worth including it on the initial banlist, while Flip Turn is clearly not problematic (the only mons that get it without already having STAB are Mew and Dragalge, and I doubt many mons would want to change it away from water). Volt Switch I am in between on; almost all the users already have STAB, but like you said taking away its immunity takes away a lot of counter play. I think right this minute I would start with U-Turn and Volt Switch on the banlist, and Flip Turn free. Could possibly be talked into adding Volt Switch to the watchlist though.

This also has the side effect of providing a nerf to offense right out of the gate; U-Turn/Volt Switch is a great way to get your attackers in, so removing those makes it harder to bring in offensive mons safely. And once they're in, they don't have the option of just clicking U-Turn for free momentum, they have to make a play to make progress. I do think the meta will still be offensively inclined, but at least it won't be endless-pivoting offense.

Given how broken STAB E-Speed usually is, I think Cinderace and Spectrier could be unbanned so long as E-Speed is allowed (granted, that’s not going to happen since E-Speed or Pokemon with E-Speed are typically ban even in Metas where it remains Normal).
I think Entei with the right bulk can handle them both and several other Pokemon.

Click to collapse...

:dragonite: :lucario: :zygarde-10: :entei: : Extreme Speed is simply too strong of an offensive tool, but if I had an actual choice of whether this or the pivot moves are more broken, it would probably be the latter. Extreme Speed is easier to prep for on certain archetypes like fat at least, and unlike changing the type of U-Turn, you can actually attempt to check these. The problem is the amount of revenge killing potential they bring to the table, and this should not be understated. With things like Entei, Dragonite, Lucario, and Zydog in the meta, offenses may find themselves to be a bit too constricted trying to build against a mon that can force out most of the meta, prime offender Flying Dnite for example. I think looking at the strong Espeed users might be beneficial here at first, Steel Fire Ground/Dragon + the users aren't exactly as lethal as Flying, so I'm interested to see where these end up.

Click to collapse...

I think E-Speed has potential to be unhealthy, but I am leaning towards starting with it on the watchlist. Dragonite is clearly the most dangerous user, and I would not be surprised if it gets banned pretty quickly; that may also be true without E-speed too. The rest of the users have common immunities or resistances, and it may not be as broken as U-Turn/Volt Switch. The pool of abusers is definitely more limited too.

:urshifu: :cinderace: :spectrier: From an unban standpoint, I think Urshifu is a hard no because of very little to help it's already restricting defensive counterplay, making builds require fat regen clef core's to handle it, while also gaining STAB Dark U-turn to chip non regen checks for pretty mad damage. Spectrier and Cinderace kind of fall under the same boat for me, anything outside of these is also likely a hard no as the closest I could even think of would be, Magearna with different types of stored power, unblockable steel Volt Switch for Specs sets.

Click to collapse...

Yeah, no unbans are probably worth considering at this time. I think we'll stick to the OU banlist as our starting point, and go from there.

although I would recommend a change in the name, as Camo moves sounds a bit too similar to Camomons itself, although I'm interested to see what a different name would be.

Click to collapse...

I agree the name is too similar, but have been struggling with what to name it instead, and this got the concept across clearly. Maybe Masked Moves? Shrouded STABs?

One other element I forgot to address is in-battle type changes (Protean/Libero, form changes, Soak/Trick-or-Treat). My gut reaction is to stick with your base typing for all of these, but have not given this a ton of thought if anyone has insight to how other metas have handled something similar.

TL;DR: OU mon banlist, ban U-Turn, probably ban Volt Switch, probably watch list E-Speed, watchlist Dragonite/Noivern/Dragapult, hidden move type is okay, still need name, and to decide what to do about in-battle type changes.

 

[Lobuttomize]

Premise: Gen 8 OU but all legendaries, mythicals, ultra beasts, or any other name Game Freak has for legendaries are banned
Bans: Obviously, the ones listed above, and all current Gen 8 OU bans/exclusions would stay banned

Basically a format to take the spotlight off of the pokemon created specifically to be powerful and allow the more normal pokemon to build the base of the meta. Bans may be added or removed that conflict with normal Gen 8 OU as the meta develops for necessary counters and such, but legendaries, mythicals, etc would never be allowed.

 

[Sugarbear]

Premise: Gen 8 OU but all legendaries, mythicals, ultra beasts, or any other name Game Freak has for legendaries are banned
Bans: Obviously, the ones listed above, and all current Gen 8 OU bans/exclusions would stay banned

Basically a format to take the spotlight off of the pokemon created specifically to be powerful and allow the more normal pokemon to build the base of the meta. Bans may be added or removed that conflict with normal Gen 8 OU as the meta develops for necessary counters and such, but legendaries, mythicals, etc would never be allowed.

Click to collapse...

Metas that restrict the players are rarely ever successful. A good OM should give people more options not less. The only people I can see playing this are the bitter people on ladder who think they deserve a medal for using unviable stuff because they think they’re being creative.

Also this concept has been suggested time and again and rejected time and again.

 

[Cratersmash]

Thanks to everyone who responded! I love the feedback.


Boomburst is a move I completely missed, good catch. Looking through the potential abusers, Noivern is the one that scares me the most and belongs on the watchlist, at least. I think I would be leaning towards allowing Boomburst to be free at the start, and seeing if just Noivern is the problem, Boomburst is, or actually both elements are healthy,


I think U-Turn is pretty clearly unhealthy and probably worth including it on the initial banlist, while Flip Turn is clearly not problematic (the only mons that get it without already having STAB are Mew and Dragalge, and I doubt many mons would want to change it away from water). Volt Switch I am in between on; almost all the users already have STAB, but like you said taking away its immunity takes away a lot of counter play. I think right this minute I would start with U-Turn and Volt Switch on the banlist, and Flip Turn free. Could possibly be talked into adding Volt Switch to the watchlist though.

This also has the side effect of providing a nerf to offense right out of the gate; U-Turn/Volt Switch is a great way to get your attackers in, so removing those makes it harder to bring in offensive mons safely. And once they're in, they don't have the option of just clicking U-Turn for free momentum, they have to make a play to make progress. I do think the meta will still be offensively inclined, but at least it won't be endless-pivoting offense.



I think E-Speed has potential to be unhealthy, but I am leaning towards starting with it on the watchlist. Dragonite is clearly the most dangerous user, and I would not be surprised if it gets banned pretty quickly; that may also be true without E-speed too. The rest of the users have common immunities or resistances, and it may not be as broken as U-Turn/Volt Switch. The pool of abusers is definitely more limited too.


Yeah, no unbans are probably worth considering at this time. I think we'll stick to the OU banlist as our starting point, and go from there.


I agree the name is too similar, but have been struggling with what to name it instead, and this got the concept across clearly. Maybe Masked Moves? Shrouded STABs?

One other element I forgot to address is in-battle type changes (Protean/Libero, form changes, Soak/Trick-or-Treat). My gut reaction is to stick with your base typing for all of these, but have not given this a ton of thought if anyone has insight to how other metas have handled something similar.

TL;DR: OU mon banlist, ban U-Turn, probably ban Volt Switch, probably watch list E-Speed, watchlist Dragonite/Noivern/Dragapult, hidden move type is okay, still need name, and to decide what to do about in-battle type changes.

Click to collapse...

One thing to note is that banning U-Turn and Volt Switch would shake up the meta a lot. I think it would probably be good in this case since it makes it harder to get in frail attackers and makes it so that stuff can’t just pivot on switches,nerfing offense.

 

[BandedBodyPress]

Symbiotic

Metagame Premise: Pokémon get one move from the learnsets of the adjacent team members once.

Team examples: https://pokepast.es/985e150ab95f914c https://pokepast.es/7f9d4898e9e075fc https://pokepast.es/638e5419e9324d5a https://pokepast.es/214eab3f5b214ce5 https://pokepast.es/abc3a8d86699b69c https://pokepast.es/108bae0a9e21c6f6 I had some replays with some friends trying out the rules. We agreed on OU clause with Magearna, Zygarde, Cinderace, Genesect and Nagandel being unbanned. Shift Gear, Double Iron Bash, Endeavor, Rising Voltage, Spore, V-Create, Shell Smash, Electrify and Bolt Beak could not be used by any Pokémon that don’t already have them in their learnset already. Additionally, we implemented a rule in which a move could only be distributed once per team.

Potential Bans and Threats: Magearna, Zygarde, Melmetal, Clangorous Soul. Magearna and Zygarde both make very good use of an expansion of their movepool. Zygarde seems to enjoy receiving instant healing. It also gives Glare, Thousand Arrows, Extreme Speed and Dragon Dance. Magearna appreciates its movepool being expanded as well. Quiver Dance, instant healing and Moonblast are what it will gladly take. It gives Fleur Canon and Volt Switch, which are very good moves. Melmetal doesn’t give much that others can, but it receives a lot out of healing moves and big damage. On a Trick Room team, it can set up Trick Room itself on most physical threats. Clangorous Soul is targeted towards Kommo-o itself and Clefable. Assuming Kommo-o is getting a healing move (like maybe Recover from Porygon-Z) or Shared Power from something else, they both can boost and heal off the damage from Clangorous Soul.

Questions for the community: Should the unbans/bans have not been used? Is there any unhealthy potential strategy? What are some generally good pairings?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1427923464 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1427927924 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1423640919 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1423633495 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1423629479

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

I would add Fishious Rend alongside the bans because it’s essentially a better Bolt Beak, as Water hits everything outside of abilities. I’m also curious why Rising Voltage is banned but not Grassy Glide (Bulu Grassy Glide or something else)

 

[BandedBodyPress]

I would add Fishious Rend alongside the bans because it’s essentially a better Bolt Beak, as Water hits everything outside of abilities. I’m also curious why Rising Voltage is banned but not Grassy Glide (Bulu Grassy Glide or something else)

Click to collapse...

Vish isn’t allowed and the power output from a Tapu Koko Rising Voltage isn’t comparable to a Tapu Bulu Grassy Glide.

 

[Cuddly]

Symbiotic

Metagame Premise: Pokémon get one move from the learnsets of the adjacent team members once.

Team examples: https://pokepast.es/985e150ab95f914c https://pokepast.es/7f9d4898e9e075fc https://pokepast.es/638e5419e9324d5a https://pokepast.es/214eab3f5b214ce5 https://pokepast.es/abc3a8d86699b69c https://pokepast.es/108bae0a9e21c6f6 I had some replays with some friends trying out the rules. We agreed on OU clause with Magearna, Zygarde, Cinderace, Genesect and Nagandel being unbanned. Shift Gear, Double Iron Bash, Endeavor, Rising Voltage, Spore, V-Create, Shell Smash, Electrify and Bolt Beak could not be used by any Pokémon that don’t already have them in their learnset already. Additionally, we implemented a rule in which a move could only be distributed once per team.

Potential Bans and Threats: Magearna, Zygarde, Melmetal, Clangorous Soul. Magearna and Zygarde both make very good use of an expansion of their movepool. Zygarde seems to enjoy receiving instant healing. It also gives Glare, Thousand Arrows, Extreme Speed and Dragon Dance. Magearna appreciates its movepool being expanded as well. Quiver Dance, instant healing and Moonblast are what it will gladly take. It gives Fleur Canon and Volt Switch, which are very good moves. Melmetal doesn’t give much that others can, but it receives a lot out of healing moves and big damage. On a Trick Room team, it can set up Trick Room itself on most physical threats. Clangorous Soul is targeted towards Kommo-o itself and Clefable. Assuming Kommo-o is getting a healing move (like maybe Recover from Porygon-Z) or Shared Power from something else, they both can boost and heal off the damage from Clangorous Soul.

Questions for the community: Should the unbans/bans have not been used? Is there any unhealthy potential strategy? What are some generally good pairings?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1427923464 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1427927924 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1423640919 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1423633495 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1423629479

Click to collapse...

I think what would make this metagame more interesting is instead of getting moves from a partner's movepool, it would instead get the move in the first slot of the Pokemon on both sides (with the first and last Pokemon inheriting from each other)
As an example;
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- U-turn
- Defog
- Roost

Toxapex @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Knock Off
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Toxic

Scizor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Roost
- Knock Off

Arctozolt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Substitute
- Bolt Beak
- Blizzard
- Low Kick

Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Freeze-Dry
- Hail
- Hypnosis
Let's say you had this team that I made in 30 seconds.
Corviknight would have Knock Off and Aurora Veil as additional moves
Toxapex would have Body Press and Stealth Rock
Landorus-t would have Knock Off and Bullet Punch
Scizor would have Stealth Rock and Substitute
Arctozolt would have Aurora Veil and Bullet Punch
Alolan Ninetales would have Body Press and Substitute
Not the best team you could have, but this should make the mechanic clear.

The problem with the original mechanic is that it's a bit too much like Sketchmons imo, but with 2 moves and some Pokemon requirements. I think the new mechanic will have a bigger focus on synergy and decision making. It would also make a huge difference in metagames since it would be one of the few Metagames that allows more than 4 moves.

Also here is a better sample team, more or less giving an understanding of how the mechanics work.
https://pokepast.es/5975eb3f087f1915
Corviknight gets Acid Armor and Leech Seed in this case, which can apply pressure to the opponent. Either being Leeched to death or being body pressed to death.
Ferrothorn now has healing and a Substitute, both of which compliment its leech seeds.
Kyurem gets Jungle Healing and Leech Seed. In the off chance it ever gets paralyzed, burned, or toxiced, Kyurem can just use Jungle Healing, and extra recovery never hurt anyone.
Zarude get Synthesis and Substitute, making its longevity better and can protect itself from U-turn without giving up a move slot.
Comfey gets a surprisingly good combo of JH and Acid Armor. I remember using Comfey in Bonus type with Poison for a toxic immunity, and while it's not an immunity, healing toxic is great, and covering Comfey's Def with Acid Armor compliments Calm Mind and Stored Power too.
Melmetal got Synthesis and Roost, which is probably the weakest in terms of moves received, but having access to a strong Body Press without the compromise of not having any healing moves (although this is a bit overkill)

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Vish isn’t allowed

Click to collapse...

There are two Vishes.
:ss/arctovish:

 

[JTD783]

This has probably been suggested before but I didn't see it in the "commonly rejected ideas" thread so here goes:

Balanced Dynamax (balanced maxmons?)

Metagame premise: Dynamax moves no longer have secondary effects. For example, Max Flare no longer sets sunny weather and Max Knuckle no longer gives an attack boost. All other mechanics are not changed. OU-based metagame; standard banlist.

Potential bans and threats: An offensive mon could become too much to handle after Dynamaxing even without the secondary effects. Dragon Dance Dragapult's capability of firing off boosted Max Phantasms could prove too strong for the tier. Weather abusers might become overwhelming as well.

Questions for the community:

• Should Gmax moves' effects be allowed? I think they wouldn't be broken, and the intention of this meta is to explore a Dmax meta that isn't broken moreso than just banning everything but the HP boost and the moves' power increase.
• Should some secondary effects be legal? I doubt the opponent's speed drop from Max Strike or the misty terrain from Max Starfall would be overpowered, but the max moves that set other terrains, weather, or boost the user's stats are almost certainly off the table.
• Does this even sound fun to play? I'm concerned it may not be exciting enough, but I hope the idea of a less bullshit more balanced Dmax meta appeals to players.
• Is this a stupid idea that I should expect to see rejected? I am still paranoid about that.

 

[HeatEdgeSword]

This has probably been suggested before but I didn't see it in the "commonly rejected ideas" thread so here goes:

Balanced Dynamax (balanced maxmons?)

Metagame premise: Dynamax moves no longer have secondary effects. For example, Max Flare no longer sets sunny weather and Max Knuckle no longer gives an attack boost. All other mechanics are not changed. OU-based metagame; standard banlist.

Potential bans and threats: An offensive mon could become too much to handle after Dynamaxing even without the secondary effects. Dragon Dance Dragapult's capability of firing off boosted Max Phantasms could prove too strong for the tier. Weather abusers might become overwhelming as well.

Questions for the community:

• Should Gmax moves' effects be allowed? I think they wouldn't be broken, and the intention of this meta is to explore a Dmax meta that isn't broken moreso than just banning everything but the HP boost and the moves' power increase.
• Should some secondary effects be legal? I doubt the opponent's speed drop from Max Strike or the misty terrain from Max Starfall would be overpowered, but the max moves that set other terrains, weather, or boost the user's stats are almost certainly off the table.
• Does this even sound fun to play? I'm concerned it may not be exciting enough, but I hope the idea of a less bullshit more balanced Dmax meta appeals to players.
• Is this a stupid idea that I should expect to see rejected? I am still paranoid about that.

Click to collapse...

Just removing the secondary effect isn't enough to make Dynamax more bearable. I feel like this would be better for Pet Mod instead, but I already did that though it hasn't been approved yet.

 

[BandedBodyPress]

There are two Vishes.
:ss/arctovish:

Click to collapse...

Whoops I overlooked that. Thank you.

 

[ccactuss]

Symbiotic

Metagame Premise: Pokémon get one move from the learnsets of the adjacent team members once.

Team examples: https://pokepast.es/985e150ab95f914c https://pokepast.es/7f9d4898e9e075fc https://pokepast.es/638e5419e9324d5a https://pokepast.es/214eab3f5b214ce5 https://pokepast.es/abc3a8d86699b69c https://pokepast.es/108bae0a9e21c6f6 I had some replays with some friends trying out the rules. We agreed on OU clause with Magearna, Zygarde, Cinderace, Genesect and Nagandel being unbanned. Shift Gear, Double Iron Bash, Endeavor, Rising Voltage, Spore, V-Create, Shell Smash, Electrify and Bolt Beak could not be used by any Pokémon that don’t already have them in their learnset already. Additionally, we implemented a rule in which a move could only be distributed once per team.

Potential Bans and Threats: Magearna, Zygarde, Melmetal, Clangorous Soul. Magearna and Zygarde both make very good use of an expansion of their movepool. Zygarde seems to enjoy receiving instant healing. It also gives Glare, Thousand Arrows, Extreme Speed and Dragon Dance. Magearna appreciates its movepool being expanded as well. Quiver Dance, instant healing and Moonblast are what it will gladly take. It gives Fleur Canon and Volt Switch, which are very good moves. Melmetal doesn’t give much that others can, but it receives a lot out of healing moves and big damage. On a Trick Room team, it can set up Trick Room itself on most physical threats. Clangorous Soul is targeted towards Kommo-o itself and Clefable. Assuming Kommo-o is getting a healing move (like maybe Recover from Porygon-Z) or Shared Power from something else, they both can boost and heal off the damage from Clangorous Soul.

Questions for the community: Should the unbans/bans have not been used? Is there any unhealthy potential strategy? What are some generally good pairings?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1427923464 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1427927924 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1423640919 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1423633495 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1423629479

Click to collapse...

mom get the camera i'm on smogon!

jokes apart this meta is actually so fun and clever, and it takes skill to teambuild!

 

[Cuddly]

This has probably been suggested before but I didn't see it in the "commonly rejected ideas" thread so here goes:

Balanced Dynamax (balanced maxmons?)

Metagame premise: Dynamax moves no longer have secondary effects. For example, Max Flare no longer sets sunny weather and Max Knuckle no longer gives an attack boost. All other mechanics are not changed. OU-based metagame; standard banlist.

Potential bans and threats: An offensive mon could become too much to handle after Dynamaxing even without the secondary effects. Dragon Dance Dragapult's capability of firing off boosted Max Phantasms could prove too strong for the tier. Weather abusers might become overwhelming as well.

Questions for the community:

• Should Gmax moves' effects be allowed? I think they wouldn't be broken, and the intention of this meta is to explore a Dmax meta that isn't broken moreso than just banning everything but the HP boost and the moves' power increase.
• Should some secondary effects be legal? I doubt the opponent's speed drop from Max Strike or the misty terrain from Max Starfall would be overpowered, but the max moves that set other terrains, weather, or boost the user's stats are almost certainly off the table.
• Does this even sound fun to play? I'm concerned it may not be exciting enough, but I hope the idea of a less bullshit more balanced Dmax meta appeals to players.
• Is this a stupid idea that I should expect to see rejected? I am still paranoid about that.

Click to collapse...

What make Dynamax broken isn't just the secondary effects. It's the culmination of really good attributes designed to prevent sweep stopping, without any compromise. You would need to overhaul the entire mechanic to resemble anything balanced, where said mechanic would only be recognized by name.
I also think that the Double HP and arbitrary immunities to things like Encore and Destiny Bond are the biggest contributors to Dynamax being broken.

 

[Nyx_Turen]

Ok here is an interesting OM Idea. so you know how battle factory would apply custom setting such as monotype, all level 50, NFE, ect.
well what if there was...
OM Factory
The Premise is that in this OM you would be put into a random OM with a randomized team for that OM. This would be more so for people who want to practice playing certain metas without having to teambuild. I don't know about some people but sometimes I feel like using things that are good and not have to theorymon until you have a perfect team. sometimes I might just want to have the game make a team for me. this would in my opinion be really interesting since it would mean you could just play a whole bunch of metas without having to make a team for each one.
Metas that would be included: AAA, Mix and Mega, Stabmons, Camomons, and Inverse
Metas that could be included: Balanced hackmons, Super staff bros 4, 350 cup, and more but these are the ones that I think might be the easiest to implement

 

[Yveltal for PU]

Ok here is an interesting OM Idea. so you know how battle factory would apply custom setting such as monotype, all level 50, NFE, ect.
well what if there was...
OM Factory
The Premise is that in this OM you would be put into a random OM with a randomized team for that OM. This would be more so for people who want to practice playing certain metas without having to teambuild. I don't know about some people but sometimes I feel like using things that are good and not have to theorymon until you have a perfect team. sometimes I might just want to have the game make a team for me. this would in my opinion be really interesting since it would mean you could just play a whole bunch of metas without having to make a team for each one.
Metas that would be included: AAA, Mix and Mega, Stabmons, Camomons, and Inverse
Metas that could be included: Balanced hackmons, Super staff bros 4, 350 cup, and more but these are the ones that I think might be the easiest to implement

Click to collapse...

RandOM?
If I'm understanding correctly, users are splashed into effectively random [OM] match, but the twist is that the meta you're playing each time you enter the game is different. Should this kind of meta even be ranked, or would is simply be used to learn metas? If it is just to learn, why not use randoms for all those metas instead?

 

[Nyx_Turen]

RandOM?
If I'm understanding correctly, users are splashed into effectively random [OM] match, but the twist is that the meta you're playing each time you enter the game is different. Should this kind of meta even be ranked, or would is simply be used to learn metas? If it is just to learn, why not use randoms for all those metas instead?

Click to collapse...

That idea would also work. While it wouldn't be what I was aiming for when suggesting this it might just be better. so having Random battles for certain OMs that are unranked would be really helpful for newer players or even old ones learning a new meta. however the idea that I had originally come up with was meant as a ranked thing was more so meant as a way for people to get a similar experience to battle factory which I had heard was really enjoyed in either Sun/Moon or US/UM with a twist of it is now OM's being played not just monotype or all level 50 or NFE

 

[shnowshner]

Seems pretty dead here, feels like a good time to drop an idea I salvaged from my old phone.

Substitutes

Premise: A modified Doubles format where one Pokemon is targetable and the other is not.

Specifically, there are two positions: the front, and the back. The Pokemon in the front position is the only Pokemon targetable, while the Pokemon in the back position is the one that uses moves which target the front position. Currently, the front position can only use status moves.

This is the gist of how things would work: the details are less defined and up for interpretation at this point. I've come up with a couple of answers to some of the bigger questions.

Q1: What is the win/lose condition of a match?

I've decided on two possibilities.

1. A player has lost when they are out of useable Pokemon, as is the case for normal Pokemon battles. When only one Pokemon remains on a player's team, it simultaneously occupies the front and back positions on its side of the field, allowing it to use any of their moves and receive them.
2. A player has lost when they are unable to fill both positions on their side. This is a bit different from standard play, but might be easier to code.

Q2: What exactly can and can't be done in each position?

In my original concept I made it so that the Pokemon in front is unable to use moves, while the one in the back can use any legal moves. Ideally, a Pokemon in the front position couldn't move at all, and thus doesn't have to use Struggle. I wasn't sure on this concept, and came up with other ideas for how this can work:

1. The front position can only use status moves ("Current Implementation").
2. The above mechanics, but with the back position only able to use attacking moves.
3. No restrictions: a Pokemon can use any move regardless of position. This would also make coding easier and less unstable.

I'm a fan of the back using any move and the front only using Status as it opens up a lot of strategies that would otherwise be impossible or impractical if the front couldn't move at all or was able to use attacks.

Q3: Does this fit as an OM, or is this more of a Pet Mod?

I don't have a perfect answer: Pet Mods usually make specific changes like to a particular move, Pokemon, mechanic, or just add new features. This is definitely a bit unusual compared to normal play, but I think it counts as an OM for the following reasons:

• Nothing is being modified except what being in a certain position allows your Pokemon to do, and potentially what counts as a win/loss.
• Free-For-All has custom mechanics built around existing ones, such as the 50% damage penalty on spread moves, and is still considered an OM.
• Chimera 1v1 exists.

I could see Substitutes as a Pet Mod, but it wouldn't have to be one. As a standalone "alternate game mode" I think this works just fine. Ultimately this comes down to the discretion of the OM leaders.

Q4: Where is the front and back?

I want to say that the back is the leftmost side and the front is the rightmost side, however I am uncertain of how left and right are communicated per player at the moment (on mobile so I can't test sorry). I'd want to make sure that it's obvious where the front and back are.

As examples:

		L / FRNT	R / BACK
L / FRNT	R / BACK

This orientation has the left and right sides designate front and back positions.

		O / FRNT	I / BACK
I / BACK	O / FRNT

This orientation has the sides closest to the player icons as the back, and would be more visually cohesive.

I don't know off the top of my head how Showdown renders position for Doubles. Since the two sides face each other, would the left on one side be the left on the other, or the right? This has pretty massive implications and I don't want to get it wrong, so if someone can provide a clear answer I'd appreciate it. I'm honestly drawing a huge blank here.

Q5: How do spread moves work?

Right now, I imagine spread moves can only target the front position. I am unsure if moves that hit both sides should also hit the front position on the user's side.

I am willing to change this if people wanted it.

Q6: What happens if the Pokemon in the front faints before a move is used on it?

As there is no valid target, the move would fail. You could argue that this would allow the back position to be targeted as well. I don't have a preferance.

Q7: What is the preliminary banlist?

The standard OU Banlist feels like a good start. It is a bit difficult to gauge what is and isn't too powerful since this meta is unique in function, so a lot of Pokemon bans/unbans would likely need to come from playtesting.

Moves are a bit easier to explore, and I do have a watchlist in place.

• Taunt sounds rediculous when the front is only able to use status.
• 50% Recovery moves sound extremely free when the front is naturally passive and always targeted.
• Nature Power is a status moves that lets you attack. It's not too strong, but does defy the rules. Same goes for Metronome and other moves that call moves.
• Substitute and Protect could be problematic, not sure yet.
• Setup moves could be very centralizing as it's really easy for the back to boost for free, though the front would be able to boost as well, or just Haze. Definitely needs testing.

I have an inclination that Stall and HO might be overbearing in some capacity but that's pure speculation.

If you have any comments, questions, or threats, please share them. Feedback is really important during what is essentually the alpha phase of my idea, and I'd like to cement what the mechanics will be going forward.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

When sending out Pokemon at the start of a battle, the first Pokemon is on the outside and the second Pokemon is on the inside, so your second example should be the one.

If this is supposed to be a modified version of doubles, with the only changes being who you can target and what can use moves, then multitarget moves should be able to hit the opponent's back and/or your front, since they skip right past the targeting step and just attack whoever they attack (think how they interact with Follow Me). Speaking of which, redirection like Follow Me and Lightning Rod should behave like they do in doubles, with Follow Me and Rage Powder allowing the player to draw fire away from their front to hit their back, though the practicality of doing so is limited due to the front's limited options. On a similar note, swapping a Pokemon from front to back would be an awkward process, as you would first need to switch out the Pokemon on one turn and then switch it back in the following turn, that is of course if neither of your active Pokemon know Ally Switch.

 

[Cuddly]

Seems pretty dead here, feels like a good time to drop an idea I salvaged from my old phone.

Substitutes

Premise: A modified Doubles format where one Pokemon is targetable and the other is not.

Specifically, there are two positions: the front, and the back. The Pokemon in the front position is the only Pokemon targetable, while the Pokemon in the back position is the one that uses moves which target the front position. Currently, the front position can only use status moves.

This is the gist of how things would work: the details are less defined and up for interpretation at this point. I've come up with a couple of answers to some of the bigger questions.

Q1: What is the win/lose condition of a match?

I've decided on two possibilities.

1. A player has lost when they are out of useable Pokemon, as is the case for normal Pokemon battles. When only one Pokemon remains on a player's team, it simultaneously occupies the front and back positions on its side of the field, allowing it to use any of their moves and receive them.
2. A player has lost when they are unable to fill both positions on their side. This is a bit different from standard play, but might be easier to code.

Q2: What exactly can and can't be done in each position?

In my original concept I made it so that the Pokemon in front is unable to use moves, while the one in the back can use any legal moves. Ideally, a Pokemon in the front position couldn't move at all, and thus doesn't have to use Struggle. I wasn't sure on this concept, and came up with other ideas for how this can work:

1. The front position can only use status moves ("Current Implementation").
2. The above mechanics, but with the back position only able to use attacking moves.
3. No restrictions: a Pokemon can use any move regardless of position. This would also make coding easier and less unstable.

I'm a fan of the back using any move and the front only using Status as it opens up a lot of strategies that would otherwise be impossible or impractical if the front couldn't move at all or was able to use attacks.

Q3: Does this fit as an OM, or is this more of a Pet Mod?

I don't have a perfect answer: Pet Mods usually make specific changes like to a particular move, Pokemon, mechanic, or just add new features. This is definitely a bit unusual compared to normal play, but I think it counts as an OM for the following reasons:

• Nothing is being modified except what being in a certain position allows your Pokemon to do, and potentially what counts as a win/loss.
• Free-For-All has custom mechanics built around existing ones, such as the 50% damage penalty on spread moves, and is still considered an OM.
• Chimera 1v1 exists.

I could see Substitutes as a Pet Mod, but it wouldn't have to be one. As a standalone "alternate game mode" I think this works just fine. Ultimately this comes down to the discretion of the OM leaders.

Q4: Where is the front and back?

I want to say that the back is the leftmost side and the front is the rightmost side, however I am uncertain of how left and right are communicated per player at the moment (on mobile so I can't test sorry). I'd want to make sure that it's obvious where the front and back are.

As examples:

		L / FRNT	R / BACK
L / FRNT	R / BACK

This orientation has the left and right sides designate front and back positions.

		O / FRNT	I / BACK
I / BACK	O / FRNT

This orientation has the sides closest to the player icons as the back, and would be more visually cohesive.

I don't know off the top of my head how Showdown renders position for Doubles. Since the two sides face each other, would the left on one side be the left on the other, or the right? This has pretty massive implications and I don't want to get it wrong, so if someone can provide a clear answer I'd appreciate it. I'm honestly drawing a huge blank here.

Q5: How do spread moves work?

Right now, I imagine spread moves can only target the front position. I am unsure if moves that hit both sides should also hit the front position on the user's side.

I am willing to change this if people wanted it.

Q6: What happens if the Pokemon in the front faints before a move is used on it?

As there is no valid target, the move would fail. You could argue that this would allow the back position to be targeted as well. I don't have a preferance.

Q7: What is the preliminary banlist?

The standard OU Banlist feels like a good start. It is a bit difficult to gauge what is and isn't too powerful since this meta is unique in function, so a lot of Pokemon bans/unbans would likely need to come from playtesting.

Moves are a bit easier to explore, and I do have a watchlist in place.

• Taunt sounds rediculous when the front is only able to use status.
• 50% Recovery moves sound extremely free when the front is naturally passive and always targeted.
• Nature Power is a status moves that lets you attack. It's not too strong, but does defy the rules. Same goes for Metronome and other moves that call moves.
• Substitute and Protect could be problematic, not sure yet.
• Setup moves could be very centralizing as it's really easy for the back to boost for free, though the front would be able to boost as well, or just Haze. Definitely needs testing.

I have an inclination that Stall and HO might be overbearing in some capacity but that's pure speculation.

If you have any comments, questions, or threats, please share them. Feedback is really important during what is essentually the alpha phase of my idea, and I'd like to cement what the mechanics will be going forward.

Click to collapse...

First, this reminds me of Double Dash

Second, I think it makes more sense to have the front Pokemon do the attacks, while the back does the status moves. This prevents combos Wall in front Wallbreaker in back from being the dominent strategy.
Third, I think what would make this meta more interesting mechanically is if the Pokemon were one “entity”. That is to say the Pokemon have combined Health Bars (whether that be sum of their Max health or the average of their Max health, which ever would be more balanced considering it’s still doubles with 2 moves per turn), stat increases are applied to both Pokemon, and like Aegislash, they can swap between each other.
Fourth, this seems really hard to code and would require way too much.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Fourth, this seems really hard to code and would require way too much.

Click to collapse...

I'm not a programmer so I might be wrong, but I don't see why "put a permanent Follow Me effect on one slot and put a permanent reverse Taunt on the other" would be too difficult to code.

 

[Cratersmash]

Seems pretty dead here, feels like a good time to drop an idea I salvaged from my old phone.

Substitutes

Premise: A modified Doubles format where one Pokemon is targetable and the other is not.

Specifically, there are two positions: the front, and the back. The Pokemon in the front position is the only Pokemon targetable, while the Pokemon in the back position is the one that uses moves which target the front position. Currently, the front position can only use status moves.

This is the gist of how things would work: the details are less defined and up for interpretation at this point. I've come up with a couple of answers to some of the bigger questions.

Q1: What is the win/lose condition of a match?

I've decided on two possibilities.

1. A player has lost when they are out of useable Pokemon, as is the case for normal Pokemon battles. When only one Pokemon remains on a player's team, it simultaneously occupies the front and back positions on its side of the field, allowing it to use any of their moves and receive them.
2. A player has lost when they are unable to fill both positions on their side. This is a bit different from standard play, but might be easier to code.

Q2: What exactly can and can't be done in each position?

In my original concept I made it so that the Pokemon in front is unable to use moves, while the one in the back can use any legal moves. Ideally, a Pokemon in the front position couldn't move at all, and thus doesn't have to use Struggle. I wasn't sure on this concept, and came up with other ideas for how this can work:

1. The front position can only use status moves ("Current Implementation").
2. The above mechanics, but with the back position only able to use attacking moves.
3. No restrictions: a Pokemon can use any move regardless of position. This would also make coding easier and less unstable.

I'm a fan of the back using any move and the front only using Status as it opens up a lot of strategies that would otherwise be impossible or impractical if the front couldn't move at all or was able to use attacks.

Q3: Does this fit as an OM, or is this more of a Pet Mod?

I don't have a perfect answer: Pet Mods usually make specific changes like to a particular move, Pokemon, mechanic, or just add new features. This is definitely a bit unusual compared to normal play, but I think it counts as an OM for the following reasons:

• Nothing is being modified except what being in a certain position allows your Pokemon to do, and potentially what counts as a win/loss.
• Free-For-All has custom mechanics built around existing ones, such as the 50% damage penalty on spread moves, and is still considered an OM.
• Chimera 1v1 exists.

I could see Substitutes as a Pet Mod, but it wouldn't have to be one. As a standalone "alternate game mode" I think this works just fine. Ultimately this comes down to the discretion of the OM leaders.

Q4: Where is the front and back?

I want to say that the back is the leftmost side and the front is the rightmost side, however I am uncertain of how left and right are communicated per player at the moment (on mobile so I can't test sorry). I'd want to make sure that it's obvious where the front and back are.

As examples:

		L / FRNT	R / BACK
L / FRNT	R / BACK

This orientation has the left and right sides designate front and back positions.

		O / FRNT	I / BACK
I / BACK	O / FRNT

This orientation has the sides closest to the player icons as the back, and would be more visually cohesive.

I don't know off the top of my head how Showdown renders position for Doubles. Since the two sides face each other, would the left on one side be the left on the other, or the right? This has pretty massive implications and I don't want to get it wrong, so if someone can provide a clear answer I'd appreciate it. I'm honestly drawing a huge blank here.

Q5: How do spread moves work?

Right now, I imagine spread moves can only target the front position. I am unsure if moves that hit both sides should also hit the front position on the user's side.

I am willing to change this if people wanted it.

Q6: What happens if the Pokemon in the front faints before a move is used on it?

As there is no valid target, the move would fail. You could argue that this would allow the back position to be targeted as well. I don't have a preferance.

Q7: What is the preliminary banlist?

The standard OU Banlist feels like a good start. It is a bit difficult to gauge what is and isn't too powerful since this meta is unique in function, so a lot of Pokemon bans/unbans would likely need to come from playtesting.

Moves are a bit easier to explore, and I do have a watchlist in place.

• Taunt sounds rediculous when the front is only able to use status.
• 50% Recovery moves sound extremely free when the front is naturally passive and always targeted.
• Nature Power is a status moves that lets you attack. It's not too strong, but does defy the rules. Same goes for Metronome and other moves that call moves.
• Substitute and Protect could be problematic, not sure yet.
• Setup moves could be very centralizing as it's really easy for the back to boost for free, though the front would be able to boost as well, or just Haze. Definitely needs testing.

I have an inclination that Stall and HO might be overbearing in some capacity but that's pure speculation.

If you have any comments, questions, or threats, please share them. Feedback is really important during what is essentually the alpha phase of my idea, and I'd like to cement what the mechanics will be going forward.

Click to collapse...

Some changes that I would make are:
The back being the one using status moves,and the front being able to use attacking moves.This prevents combos like Pex in the front,Blace or smth like that in the back.
Being able to switch the positions of the Mons on the field whenever you want,kind of like an in-built Ally Switch or like Shifting for the 2.43 triples players.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Second, I think it makes more sense to have the front Pokemon do the attacks, while the back does the status moves. This prevents combos Wall in front Wallbreaker in back from being the dominent strategy.

Click to collapse...

The back being the one using status moves,and the front being able to use attacking moves.This prevents combos like Pex in the front,Blace or smth like that in the back.

Click to collapse...

I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be the point. If the one in the back is almost completely safe from harm and is very limited in how it can impact the match (compared to the front, who can make direct progress toward knocking out the opponent), then why even have it there in the first place?

 

[Cuddly]

I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be the point. If the one in the back is almost completely safe from harm and is very limited in how it can impact the match (compared to the front, who can make direct progress toward knocking out the opponent), then why even have it there in the first place?

Click to collapse...

Yeah, that’s a problem with the metagame idea.
Having the front be status only means that the metagame is solely comprised of a Pokemon specifically made as a shield and one as an archer. Having Pokemon like Blacephalon or Xurkitree have complete protection by being in the back while a Blissey or Toxapex just spam recovery moves sounds like it will get old real fast.
On the opposite, if you have that Toxapex in the back completely safe from harm, there really isn’t a point to the metagame without any other changes.
This is why I think that it would be good to have Support in the Back and DPS/Tank in the front, but let the support be more useful other than spamming its own self healing. That’s why I think of adding something like the Pokemon sharing stat boosts or something else.
And honestly even then, it would be like “Regular Doubles but Cresselia or what ever is completely safe from harm and Her using Calm Mind boost your partner’s stats too”.