A very similar metagame was suggested a few months ago, and my response is the same:
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Project Metagame Workshop
- Thread starter KaenSoul
- Start date
(insert clever name here)
Metagame premise:
Remember in the early days of Pokemon, where SpAttack and SpDefense were combined into one stat, the Special stat? What if that were the same for Physical attacks?
In this meta, Attack and Defense are combined into "Physical". It will assume the stat of the highest value of the two. Likewise, Special returns, functioning the same way.
Example:
Landorus-Therian in this meta:
HP: 89
Phys: 145
Spc: 105
Spe: 91
OU Based
-Species Clause
-Sleep Clause
-Evasion Items Clause
-Evasion Moves Clause
-OHKO Clause
-Moody Clause
-Endless Battle Clause
-Tera Clause (no Terastelizing)
Potential threats:
Kyurem
Chansey/Blissey
Gouging Fire
Landorus-Therian
Iron Valiant
Potential bans:
Questions for the community:
What would be a good name for this meta?
Would it be a bad thing for this meta to make more mons more bulky, or can it be manageable?
Metagame premise:
Remember in the early days of Pokemon, where SpAttack and SpDefense were combined into one stat, the Special stat? What if that were the same for Physical attacks?
In this meta, Attack and Defense are combined into "Physical". It will assume the stat of the highest value of the two. Likewise, Special returns, functioning the same way.
Example:
Landorus-Therian in this meta:
HP: 89
Phys: 145
Spc: 105
Spe: 91
OU Based
-Species Clause
-Sleep Clause
-Evasion Items Clause
-Evasion Moves Clause
-OHKO Clause
-Moody Clause
-Endless Battle Clause
-Tera Clause (no Terastelizing)
Potential threats:
Kyurem
Chansey/Blissey
Gouging Fire
Landorus-Therian
Iron Valiant
Potential bans:
Questions for the community:
What would be a good name for this meta?
Would it be a bad thing for this meta to make more mons more bulky, or can it be manageable?
Couple questions here. How would this work in the teambuilder? Would you invest evs and nature into atk and spA? Def and spD? If so, what if someone put a nature increasing attack and decreasing spD? This all feels like it would be overcomplicated to program in. More problems arise when considering items like eviolite, choice band/specs, and av. Would they reduce damage coming in or increase damage going out like normal? Would they increase the entire stat? I don't have enough experience to reliably say that this would be better as a pet mod, but I can say that this feels very overcomplicated to code in with multiple potential loopholes you'd have to patch up.
Also hoopa unbound. That's all. Just, hoopa unbound.
Also, funny thing. There are a lot of sturdy mons with very high defensive stats that are meant to be balanced by horrid hp, but here it would just become their offensive stats. Avalugg, bastiodon, regirock, and carbink instantly come to mind.
You could have the average of the stats potentially. I do prefer the proposed idea, just taking the higher stat, but I think it would lead to way more bans for balancing.
I think that the issue with Specs, Eviolite, and Assault Vest aren’t too hard tho.
Let’s look at my favorite move for inspiration, Body Press. Choice Band does boost it, but Eviolite does not. The same principle could be applied here. They could all boost your special stat visually, but Choice Specs only increases your damage, and Eviolite and Vest would only increase it for defense.
What I’m worried about is that there’s no intuitive way to deal with Effort Values and Natures. Which stat do I put it in? Do Careful and Rash become neutral natures?
I think that the issue with Specs, Eviolite, and Assault Vest aren’t too hard tho.
Let’s look at my favorite move for inspiration, Body Press. Choice Band does boost it, but Eviolite does not. The same principle could be applied here. They could all boost your special stat visually, but Choice Specs only increases your damage, and Eviolite and Vest would only increase it for defense.
What I’m worried about is that there’s no intuitive way to deal with Effort Values and Natures. Which stat do I put it in? Do Careful and Rash become neutral natures?
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Oh- I didn't think about the Teambuilder. I'd assume you just put the EVs into either Attack or Special Attack, neither of the Defenses will count towards anything.
Eviolite would probably reduce the damage you take from Physical or Special moves, not boost them when you attack.
This explains it well
As for Hoopa-Unbound, yeah that's probably either a threat or a ban, didn't think about that.
That would probably work out for the items, ala modern gen 1. Another thing would be how moves like SD and idef would work. Would it be the same thing, boosting only the attack/spA, or would it be more like gen 1 and boost both? If it were to go the second route, then SD, idef, and bulk up would all be the same thing, along with nasty plot, amnesia, and cm. For implementation I had an idea that might help clear teambuilding up. I still feel like entirely changing how the stats work would feel more like a pet mod, but we could instead change it so it becomes the base stat for both stats. Taking your landorus example, it wouldn't have 145 (attack and defense), but it would have 145 attack and 145 defense. This would definitely make the teambuilder a lot more intuitive and could be combined with BandedBodyPress's idea of taking the average of the two stats. Doesn't have to take this route and might lose some of the original intent, but it is definitely an option to make a few things easier to understand.
ETA: 252+ Atk Choice Band Regirock Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 552-650 (109.5 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
We bringing back gen 3 explosion with this one
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You are overthinking it when we already have Full Potential to take the mechanics from, everything just uses whichever is higher and the other stat may as well not exists.
It does sound interesting at first glance, maybe a bit too similar to FP in some aspects, but it should play differently enough, as FP mostly helps defensive mons as they gain offensive power while offensive mons don't get anything if they aren't speedsters, here you make everyone either bulkier or stronger, I imagine it would be a balance/bulky offense heavy tier, as neither stall nor HO can really exist when the mons gain the opposite property by default.
It does sound interesting at first glance, maybe a bit too similar to FP in some aspects, but it should play differently enough, as FP mostly helps defensive mons as they gain offensive power while offensive mons don't get anything if they aren't speedsters, here you make everyone either bulkier or stronger, I imagine it would be a balance/bulky offense heavy tier, as neither stall nor HO can really exist when the mons gain the opposite property by default.
A lot of the questions here are more coming from the logistics of combining stats. If both stats are counted as one, that's bringing up questions on evs and natures. Evs could be explained with fp, but there's still the question of nature. If you have a higher spA than spD, would using a -spD nature just give you a free stat boost? That's one of the main questions here, items can be explained by either what's mentioned above or fp.
It's not JUST hoopa-unbound, in general pokemon with high singular stats appreciate this more than others. I think if this metagame is allowed you'd either have to ban the majority of pokemon with 150+ in any stat or just accept that the metagame is going to be a very limited pool of pokemon because those will be so much better than most: For example:
-Regice getting 200spa with STAB boltbeam coverage
-pecharunt becoming unwallable with 160atk poltergeists + gunk shots,
-cloyster.
-strong physical attackers like rampardos getting 97/165 physical bulk (which quite humerously allows it to survive an iron valiant close combat after stealth rocks even with no investment!)
-strong defensive mons like pex/deo-d becoming nukes
-a whole host of mons becoming mixed-viable and thus much harder to wall
etc. etc. etc.
Ultimately I feel that the metagame is going to end up centralizing around those few pokemon with little to no room for creativity as other pokemon simply can't compete when their highest stat is a "middling" 130 at best. For this reason I don't think it'd really gather a large playerbase, as it'd be "solved" within a few days.
Yes, this post was entirely motivated by Lokix, and no, I will not apologize for it.
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xedèkoP Meta
Metagame Premise: Pokemon’s Primary type is determined by the Primary type of their Dex Mirror.Example:
#0002————#1024
——-
Ivysaur and Terapagos are the Second and Second to Last Pokemon in the Pokedex and are Dex Mirrored. Ivysaur is a Grass/Poison type while Terapagos is a Normal type (or Normal/Normal). In this metagame, Ivysaur will become a Normal/Poison type, while Terapagos becomes a Grass type
For less obvious mirrors, you can do (total number of Pokemon + 1) - (Dex# of your Pokemon).
Like let’s take a Pokemon closer to the middle like
is #445 on the Pokedex, which means its mirror is 1026-445 or 581 which is 
‘s Pokedex number. This means becomes a Water/Ground type, while becomes a Dragon/Flying type.Also incase you were wondering what happens if we have odd number dex total, what happens to the exact middle Pokemon? In this case the exact middle Pokemon is
(513) which simply swaps with its mirror Pokemon also (1026 - 513 = 513) staying as a Fire type.Potential Threats and Bans:
Grass/FireCurrently, Volcarona’s mirror is Torterra, making it a Grass/Fire type. This gives it STAB on its Grass moves but more importantly makes its defensive typing better. Volcarona is already a massive threat only held back by its typing limiting it a bit.
Electric/FlyingDragonite is a great Pokemon currently, but is only getting better because its mirror is Morpeko, so it becomes an Electric/Flying type. This removes its x4 Ice weakness and also gives it STAB on Thunder Punch.
Water/DragonHydrapple's mirror is Squirtle, thus it will become a Water/Dragon type, making it a really great regenerator Pokemon
Stinkers and Losers:
Electric/GhostGholdengo’s Dex Mirror is fittingly Raichu, meaning that it’ll become an Electric/Ghost type. It’s still solid typing, but not remotely as good and means Gholdengo no longer spinblocks Mortal Spin.
Grass/SteelKingambit’s mirror is Oddish so it’ll become a Grass/Steel type, meaning it loses STAB Kowtow Cleave and Sucker Punch.
WaterToxapex's mirror is Wingull. This is unique as Toxapex is a Poison/Water type, thus would become "Water/Water" type or simply pure Water. You lose out on Grass neutrality and many Poison benefits like its resistances or poison immunity.
Questions for the Community:
1. How should alternate forms work in this meta when the form changes a Pokemon’s typing? For example,
can change its primary type and is a mirror of 
. What type should Grovyle be and what type should Silvally be with its memories?2. Some Pokemon are simply no available. For example
currently does not exist in the game and mirrors 
. This would mean that their respective types are Normal/Ghost and Bug. But with not being available would it be fine to make a Bug type despite that?3. I use the national dex numbers as an example, but what about regional dex numbers instead? That would help with the second question and be more “official” I guess.
This does seem like an interesting idea. Unfortunately, natdex based formats aren't generally accepted, but I would definitely be interested in seeing this come to fruition.xedèkoP MetaMetagame Premise: Pokemon’s Primary type is determined by the Primary type of their Dex Mirror.
Example:
#0002————#1024
Ivysaur and Terapagos are the Second and Second to Last Pokemon in the Pokedex and are Dex Mirrored. Ivysaur is a Grass/Poison type while Terapagos is a Normal type (or Normal/Normal). In this metagame, Ivysaur will become a Normal/Poison type, while Terapagos becomes a Grass type
For less obvious mirrors, you can do (total number of Pokemon + 1) - (Dex# of your Pokemon).
Like let’s take a Pokemon closer to the middle like
Also incase you were wondering what happens if we have odd number dex total, what happens to the exact middle Pokemon? In this case the exact middle Pokemon is
Potential Threats and Bans:
Currently, Volcarona’s mirror is Torterra, making it a Grass/Fire type. This gives it STAB on its Grass moves but more importantly makes its defensive typing better. Volcarona is already a massive threat only held back by its typing limiting it a bit.
Dragonite is a great Pokemon currently, but is only getting better because its mirror is Morpeko, so it becomes an Electric/Flying type. This removes its x4 Ice weakness and also gives it STAB on Thunder Punch.
Hydrapple's mirror is Squirtle, thus it will become a Water/Dragon type, making it a really great regenerator Pokemon
Stinkers and Losers:
Gholdengo’s Dex Mirror is fittingly Raichu, meaning that it’ll become an Electric/Ghost type. It’s still solid typing, but not remotely as good and means Gholdengo no longer spinblocks Mortal Spin.
Kingambit’s mirror is Oddish so it’ll become a Grass/Steel type, meaning it loses STAB Kowtow Cleave and Sucker Punch.
Toxapex's mirror is Wingull. This is unique as Toxapex is a Poison/Water type, thus would become "Water/Water" type or simply pure Water. You lose out on Grass neutrality and many Poison benefits like its resistances or poison immunity.
Questions for the Community:
1. How should alternate forms work in this meta when the form changes a Pokemon’s typing? For example,
2. Some Pokemon are simply no available. For example
3. I use the national dex numbers as an example, but what about regional dex numbers instead? That would help with the second question and be more “official” I guess.
It wouldn't be Natdex. Pokemon no legal in the games would not be available to use in the metagame. Like with Shedinja/Yungoos, only Yungoos would be available but be Bug type, while Shedinja is unavailable.
But it still relies on the national dex to work. Around the beginning there was a post with a similar idea but it swapped bsts and that was rejected due to relying on the national dex. Of course you could try using the Paldean dex, but that brings up questions about Paldean, kitakami, and blueberry academy dex.
Can you link that post so I can see how it specifies it? Like if MnM are allowed to have Megas and Primals, then this should be fair game under the same logic.
Was thinking of this one (dex reversal): https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-workshop.3709907/post-9400947
Looking at it, one of the reasons was that it involved natdex. I understand that only gen 9 legal pokemon would be usable, but I'm still not optimistic due to it involving the nat dex. Would have to wait for a leader's input tho.
Thanks, I read some of it and it appears that the metagame was based on a NatDex Petmod.
I hope that it is fine to base type changes on the national dex numbers. If not using the regional Pokedexes would be a fine alternative. Still have faith since Pdex/Kdex/BBdex (Regional Dexes) and Ndex (National Dex) are both values for every Pokemon in the game.
And you know as I think about this, what if you could also choose the dex you are referencing too? Like for example Annihilape had 3 dex numbers, an Ndex of 979, a Pdex of 160, and a Kdex of 101. If you name your Annihilape Ndex it’d use the Ndex number and mirror Parasect. With Pdex name, you’d mirror Indeedee.
Could be cool but might be too complicated.
Im not really sure about this one, type changing formats haven’t do that great this gen and I imagine a lot combos end rather awkward.
Also the whole dex thing is just annoying to work with, as natdex is something we should avoid but some Pokemon in the game arent in the regional dex, sometimes not even in the dlc dex, like Mew and Mewtwo.
Also the whole dex thing is just annoying to work with, as natdex is something we should avoid but some Pokemon in the game arent in the regional dex, sometimes not even in the dlc dex, like Mew and Mewtwo.
Metagame: Pokemon has always had the Bug Catcher as an iconic character within the series, so why not have a metagame that plays into this iconic character's persona. Introducing Bug Catcher’s Dream, a metagame where Bug types, Regional Birds, Net Ball Pokemon, Safari Zone Pokemon and Pokemon with BST under 500 rule the meta.
Metagame premise: All bug types, flying types, and normal type Pokemon with a BST of 500 or less. All regional bird Pokemon and ground foul (like Raticate, etc.). Any Pokemon that gets boosted catch rate due to a Net Ball (water and bug types). Any Pokemon that can be found in the Safari zone.
Potential bans and threats:
Bans:
Scizor (BST 500)
Scyther (BST 500)
Kleavor (BST 500)
Heracross (BST 500)
Vikavolt (BST 500)
Pinsir (BST 500)
Frosmoth (Quiver Dance)
All Starter Pokemon Evolutions (I don’t want the tier to look like NFE)
All Dragon type Mid Evolutions (again, I don’t want the tier to look like NFE) (Dragon type may just be straight up banned)
Threats:
Venomoth (Quiver Dance)
Lokix (TInted Lens)
Tauros (490 BST)
Masquerain (Quiver Dance)
VIvillon (Quiver Dance)
Ribombee (Quiver Dance)
Raticate (Guts)
Questions for the community:
Any Pokemon that you think are ban worthy? Threats?
Metagame premise: All bug types, flying types, and normal type Pokemon with a BST of 500 or less. All regional bird Pokemon and ground foul (like Raticate, etc.). Any Pokemon that gets boosted catch rate due to a Net Ball (water and bug types). Any Pokemon that can be found in the Safari zone.
Potential bans and threats:
Bans:
Scizor (BST 500)
Scyther (BST 500)
Kleavor (BST 500)
Heracross (BST 500)
Vikavolt (BST 500)
Pinsir (BST 500)
Frosmoth (Quiver Dance)
All Starter Pokemon Evolutions (I don’t want the tier to look like NFE)
All Dragon type Mid Evolutions (again, I don’t want the tier to look like NFE) (Dragon type may just be straight up banned)
Threats:
Venomoth (Quiver Dance)
Lokix (TInted Lens)
Tauros (490 BST)
Masquerain (Quiver Dance)
VIvillon (Quiver Dance)
Ribombee (Quiver Dance)
Raticate (Guts)
Questions for the community:
Any Pokemon that you think are ban worthy? Threats?
Formats that only restrict the Pokémon you can use don't really fall under OMs, but this doesn't look like something that would be accepted as an UM, I think you should check the beginning of this thread and the subforum to get a better idea of what we do here.
I have two ideas, one of which is a joke, and the other which is an actual idea.
The Joke: Failed Potential
Y'know how Full Potential has attacks go off of a Pokemons highest non-hp stat? This is the opposite. In Failed Potential, attacks would go off of a Pokemons lowest non-hp stat. This would be ubers based to raise the power level.
Potential Banlist
Arceus would obviously be banworthy, with such a (relatively) high 120 base stat to send out attacks.
Mythical like mew and jirachi might also be banworthy for the same reason. They also might not be, though.
Why This is a Joke
Stall. In a meta like this, pure defensive pokemon would thrive. If someone wants to pick this up and prove me wrong, go ahead, but for now this is just a funny sounding idea.
Booster Everything
This is the actual idea. Not sure if this is more of an OM or a pet mod, but I digress. Every item would function like booster energy, giving a boost based on its effect upon switch in before being consumed. This could range from obvious, like stat berries and choice items raising a stat by one stage, to creative, like terrain seeds setting a terrain and raising a stat, to brand new, like certain berries (occa category, forgot what they're called) removing the weakness entirely or giving a resist in the case of chilan berry, to everything in between. Of course, these boosts would go away after switching out.
Potential Banlist
Weakness Policy would double the offensive stats of any pokemon who holds it. This is very obviously broken.
Rocky Helmet, Jaboca Berry, and Rowap Berry. With these three, the obvious choice would be to have them take out the opponents health on switch in, but this wouldn't be very balanced. Rocky Helmet could grant the effects of rough skin, but then it just becomes a worse version of itself.
Unburden might be broken due to how items work here. At the very least an eye should be kept on it.
Mirror Herb might be an issue as a very powerful counter sweep option. Again, keep an eye on it.
Two crit stages is no laughing matter. Although not many pokemon could take advantage of it, Lansat berry could be considered uncompetitive under the right circumstances.
Overall, only weakness policy is very obviously broken. We'd probably have to finalize effects before making a full Banlist.
Potential Questions
Q: How would items like Griseous Orb or Light Ball work with their pokemon?
A: The way I see it, items that induce a form change would do the exact same thing they normally do. For the most part, they aren't counted as items in a lot of effects anyways. Light Ball could give pikachu a +2 in both offensive stats unless someone has a better idea.
Questions for Community
There are a lot of items that don't have obvious effects, like Metronome, status-healing berrys, expert belt, and the herbs to name a few. We'd have to figure out how these items would work if this were to become a meta.
Similarly, how would we balance effects to be balanced while staying relevant? Take miracle seed and co. They could give a 1.2x boost to their respective moves, but then it's just the same thing but it goes away upon switching. Would we buff the effect to give it some relevance? Would we just accept that some items would be naturally worse?
The Joke: Failed Potential
Y'know how Full Potential has attacks go off of a Pokemons highest non-hp stat? This is the opposite. In Failed Potential, attacks would go off of a Pokemons lowest non-hp stat. This would be ubers based to raise the power level.
Potential Banlist
Arceus would obviously be banworthy, with such a (relatively) high 120 base stat to send out attacks.
Mythical like mew and jirachi might also be banworthy for the same reason. They also might not be, though.
Why This is a Joke
Stall. In a meta like this, pure defensive pokemon would thrive. If someone wants to pick this up and prove me wrong, go ahead, but for now this is just a funny sounding idea.
Booster Everything
This is the actual idea. Not sure if this is more of an OM or a pet mod, but I digress. Every item would function like booster energy, giving a boost based on its effect upon switch in before being consumed. This could range from obvious, like stat berries and choice items raising a stat by one stage, to creative, like terrain seeds setting a terrain and raising a stat, to brand new, like certain berries (occa category, forgot what they're called) removing the weakness entirely or giving a resist in the case of chilan berry, to everything in between. Of course, these boosts would go away after switching out.
HDB could ignore and remove hazards upon switchin
Air Balloon could grant the effects of Levitate
Throat Spray could grant the effects of throat spray and/or increase spA by 1 stage
Weather rocks could set the weather for the extended time
Light clay could either A: Set dual screens or B: set either light screen or reflect based on your mons lower defense stat
Mirror Herb could copy all of your opponent's stat changes upon switchin
Sitrus Berry could raise your max and current HP by 25%. Similarly, Aguav and such berries could raise current and max HP by 33% but always confuse the holder for balancing
Life Orb could give a 1.3x boost to both offensive stats or move base powers but take 10% of the Pokemons HP
Air Balloon could grant the effects of Levitate
Throat Spray could grant the effects of throat spray and/or increase spA by 1 stage
Weather rocks could set the weather for the extended time
Light clay could either A: Set dual screens or B: set either light screen or reflect based on your mons lower defense stat
Mirror Herb could copy all of your opponent's stat changes upon switchin
Sitrus Berry could raise your max and current HP by 25%. Similarly, Aguav and such berries could raise current and max HP by 33% but always confuse the holder for balancing
Life Orb could give a 1.3x boost to both offensive stats or move base powers but take 10% of the Pokemons HP
Weakness Policy would double the offensive stats of any pokemon who holds it. This is very obviously broken.
Rocky Helmet, Jaboca Berry, and Rowap Berry. With these three, the obvious choice would be to have them take out the opponents health on switch in, but this wouldn't be very balanced. Rocky Helmet could grant the effects of rough skin, but then it just becomes a worse version of itself.
Unburden might be broken due to how items work here. At the very least an eye should be kept on it.
Mirror Herb might be an issue as a very powerful counter sweep option. Again, keep an eye on it.
Two crit stages is no laughing matter. Although not many pokemon could take advantage of it, Lansat berry could be considered uncompetitive under the right circumstances.
Overall, only weakness policy is very obviously broken. We'd probably have to finalize effects before making a full Banlist.
Potential Questions
Q: How would items like Griseous Orb or Light Ball work with their pokemon?
A: The way I see it, items that induce a form change would do the exact same thing they normally do. For the most part, they aren't counted as items in a lot of effects anyways. Light Ball could give pikachu a +2 in both offensive stats unless someone has a better idea.
Questions for Community
There are a lot of items that don't have obvious effects, like Metronome, status-healing berrys, expert belt, and the herbs to name a few. We'd have to figure out how these items would work if this were to become a meta.
Similarly, how would we balance effects to be balanced while staying relevant? Take miracle seed and co. They could give a 1.2x boost to their respective moves, but then it's just the same thing but it goes away upon switching. Would we buff the effect to give it some relevance? Would we just accept that some items would be naturally worse?
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This is definitely a pet mod, not an OM.
Fair enough. I'll prob take this over there if more people agree (I'm on the fence, leaning towards pet mod)
You are modifying the effects of unrelated items in a case by case basis, thats a pet mod.