Problem with Rhydon is that it's still rather slow, yet will still hit like a truck. I think it more akin to Banded Tyranitar: Useful at certain times, but ultimately destroyed by his speed flaw.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Middle Cup Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Zystral
- Start date
As a CAP player as well, I'm going to try my best to avoid going sour, but ignoring the fact that your post doesn't contribute at all, it's far from a waste of time. First off, CAP and NU are far from gimmicks. If you actually paid attention then you would see CAP has a useful effect on how we look at the metagame, and how it might be reflected in future generations. As for LC and MC, they're also different as they encourage players into thinking with different mindsets than they would in OU or any other standard tier. The numbers are different, the entire game is different, and quite a few people actually enjoy it, since they might like how the particular metagame works. The user base may be small, but that's exactly why there are discussion threads like this, so the people who know what they're talking about can discuss such things in peace and anybody new and interested can pick up on how to play as well.
It's not even that new. It's been talked about and played around with before, and while I can concede that putting the idea into structured motion may be late, it's not like Gen V is going to render everything completely ineffective. Even after the new mons and mechanics, we will still have an idea of what can work and what can't, we will have ideas of what to test and a stable base to test those things off. And even then, think about how long it will take for Gen Vs simulator to stabilze. The user base may be small but like I said, it can expand. Cynics like you just shoot down everything because you're not used to unofficial tiers where things are different and don't follow the metagame trends of standard. This isn't a random suggestion, it's a metagame that's still trying to shape up if you'd give it a chance.
Anyway to get this thread back on track, regarding Chansey - I think, NixHex, because Chansey is almost equally powerful to Blissey and most of the attackers are a lot weaker, that's what makes Chansey so broken - even with things like Rhydon and Lairon, Chansey just provides too much of an immediate stop for specially based offensive teams. Mangeton's only real option is to Explode, while Kadabra has a Focus Bl(ass)t that doesn't 2HKO or a somewhat shaky Trick (if Magneton or Haunter come in).
Offensively, I think the Rock Polish sweepers will be quite decent, since their great coverage and high power will make them threats to deal with. However, as I have found out playing with Pupitar and Lairon, they will find it very hard to actually set up, since their bulk isn't on par with their evolutions, and their neutrality to many common attacking types means they're going to take a lot of damage unless they can force things out. However, DD Dragonair and Scarf Gabite remain the top sweepers, since they both have somewhat reliable options to take out Lairon and Magneton.
Specs Kadabra does hit extremely hard, however, and like I said, if you can get past Chansey, it will sweep teams due to lack of good Psychic resist outside of Metang. Porygon2 is underwhelming, and Haunter needs SubSplit to not be overshadowed by Kadabra, which it still has problems with due to being frail. Scarf Maganeton packs a lot of power, however, so it's not just a steel killer but with a strong, STAB Flash Cannon (which hits a large proportion of the tier for neutral), as well as Thunderbolt, it's my personal favourite for Special Attacking, since if you can get it in on the other player's Mangeton Flash Cannon or Thunderbolt, a swift OHKO with HP Ground before sweeping later or letting Gabite clean up can be all you need.
It is an extremely offensively oriented Metagame, with a race to who can set up and remove threats first. Of course, stall and defensive is entirely possible, as I found out, it just needs to be played extremely well.
I know. Stone Edge/Earthquake/Outrage actually covers everything on Gabite, the last slot is totally filler. Dragon Claw and Iron Head are the only 2 other options on the last slot. It also gets Fire Blast, Draco Meteor and Earth Power, but with that SpA, Outrage/EQ hits everything harder.
Been playing this the last couple of weeks too and it is extremely amusing. Unless you face pure stall, this is like playing ubers without any defences. Especially scarf mons are extremely useable for they sweep teams on their own. Also, an offensive core of specs kadabra and scarf magneton is really strong for their brute power lets them tear trough a large part of the tier on their own.
Chansey can be tough, but its still often kod and almost setup fodder for several pokes (and setting up is hard), so i wont judge on that.
Also, i'd like to mention #middlecup here somewhere, feel free to drop in and talk some crap/do some battles.
Anyways, so far the 4 mons that seem to be most overwhelming to me are Kadabra (especially specs), Magneton (scarf or sub), Gabite and Machoke (lead is too strong).
Chansey can be tough, but its still often kod and almost setup fodder for several pokes (and setting up is hard), so i wont judge on that.
Also, i'd like to mention #middlecup here somewhere, feel free to drop in and talk some crap/do some battles.
Anyways, so far the 4 mons that seem to be most overwhelming to me are Kadabra (especially specs), Magneton (scarf or sub), Gabite and Machoke (lead is too strong).
I think Lairon could actually see some popularity in this tier. It has got some pretty good base stats, and with Rock Head Head Smash, it could still rip some holes in shit. It will still have a hard time competing for a team slot with Rhydon in all likelihood though.
Magneton sees use again . . . lol
One thing I noticed (by checking now) is that there is almost a complete lack of viable water types. Marshstomp might see use just for its good type and SR, but otherwise all other mid-evo water types seem pretty unimpressive.
It is really lame that Seadra got Poison Point instead of Swift Swim, but it does still have Dragon Dance and Outrage (even if it lacks STAB) or Return. On the other hand, Seadra's ATK is so pitiful (compared to 95 s.ATK) you are probably better off going with a Specs set using Hydro Pump, Surf and Ice Beam. With the lack of viable enemy Water Types, Water + Ice basically gives you perfect coverage . . .
I could see Dragonair doing ok in this tier.
Magneton sees use again . . . lol
One thing I noticed (by checking now) is that there is almost a complete lack of viable water types. Marshstomp might see use just for its good type and SR, but otherwise all other mid-evo water types seem pretty unimpressive.
It is really lame that Seadra got Poison Point instead of Swift Swim, but it does still have Dragon Dance and Outrage (even if it lacks STAB) or Return. On the other hand, Seadra's ATK is so pitiful (compared to 95 s.ATK) you are probably better off going with a Specs set using Hydro Pump, Surf and Ice Beam. With the lack of viable enemy Water Types, Water + Ice basically gives you perfect coverage . . .
I could see Dragonair doing ok in this tier.
I think Sealeo might be playable. For this tier, 90/70/70 Defense's isn't too bad, plus Base 75 Sp. Att isn't horrible either. Even though it doesn't get too many moves, I think Ice Beam (or Blizzard) / Surf / HP Electric are enough to warrant it as usable. It also could work as a Curse sweeper, with Curse/Earthquake/Waterfall (or Aqua Tail)/Body Slam being quite possible as well. Only problem is that godawful base 45 Speed.
Nah, its problem is being a bulky-tank player with an SR weak and no reliable recovery (and no hail in middle cup).
edit: lol, roselia is the only spikes user.
edit: lol, roselia is the only spikes user.
Rhydon, Golbat, Magneton, Chansey, Monferno, Marshtomp.
Yep, that sounds like a team that someone should prepare themselves against. Of coarse, there are a lot of viable pokemon that are in Middle Cup, but these sound like they would be the most popular for an offensive team. Golbat is a fast Taunter with plenty of support options, Magneton has super-resistances and high Special Attack, Rhydon's there to dish out physical damage like a mo' fo', Chansey absorbs special attacks aimed at the team (Specifically Rhydon) and supports, Monferno has coverage and is a great a mixed sweeper, and Marshtomp is a bulky special attacker that can knock out opposing Rhydons if not hit first (Earthquake will usually OHKO), also with great coverage.
Yep, that sounds like a team that someone should prepare themselves against. Of coarse, there are a lot of viable pokemon that are in Middle Cup, but these sound like they would be the most popular for an offensive team. Golbat is a fast Taunter with plenty of support options, Magneton has super-resistances and high Special Attack, Rhydon's there to dish out physical damage like a mo' fo', Chansey absorbs special attacks aimed at the team (Specifically Rhydon) and supports, Monferno has coverage and is a great a mixed sweeper, and Marshtomp is a bulky special attacker that can knock out opposing Rhydons if not hit first (Earthquake will usually OHKO), also with great coverage.
Tyranitar has to predict correctly between Crunch, Stone Edge and Aqua Tail though. Rhydon doesn't. Stone Edge OHKOs all but 5 (Lairon, Marshtomp, and opposing Rhydon get 3HKOd, while Dusclops and Magneton get 2HKOd). Earthquake flat out OHKOs anything that can switch in twice.
Posting to say, keep Eo Ut Mortus out of here, or he'll invade this metagame too with EoStall.
Chansey and Duscops appear to big threats to be honest though.
Chansey and Duscops appear to big threats to be honest though.
I remember playing a bunch of matches like this on shoddy, and it was a lot if fun. Dragonair, Kadabra, and Electabuzz were very good offensively, while a small core of Dusclops and Chansey could be very annoying. I think this metagame would be like playing UU; you have your standard, top tier pokes, but a ton of things can be viable.
This seems really interesting.
I can see Combusken working with an agility set. Is there anything that differentiates it from Monferno? The only thing I can find is that 252atk Adamant LifeOrb Sky Uppercut can OHKO 0/252 Chansey o_o
And Magmar seems pretty threatening too with something like:
Magmar@ Salac Berry
Belly Drum
Substitute
Fire Punch
Brick Break?
Sealeo looks like a pretty decent staller as well with Super Fang.
I can see Combusken working with an agility set. Is there anything that differentiates it from Monferno? The only thing I can find is that 252atk Adamant LifeOrb Sky Uppercut can OHKO 0/252 Chansey o_o
And Magmar seems pretty threatening too with something like:
Magmar@ Salac Berry
Belly Drum
Substitute
Fire Punch
Brick Break?
Sealeo looks like a pretty decent staller as well with Super Fang.
No one's mentioned the danger that is Magnet Rise Electabuzz. It's speed allows it outspeed and become immune to every STAB Earthquake in the tier, and Thunderpunch/Ice Punch/Cross Chop can kill pretty much anything that has a chance of killing Buzz.
Also, Chansey is more dangerous in this tier, where on average pokes have lower HP, making Seismic toss a much more dangerous threat to stat-uppers.
Also, Chansey is more dangerous in this tier, where on average pokes have lower HP, making Seismic toss a much more dangerous threat to stat-uppers.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
Chansey Stall breaks shit up and it's really hard to stop especially with support from Pory2 - which is also probably the best sweeper in the tier with Agility, Download and fantastic power + bulk + coverage. Also Taunt / Roost Golbat is a kickass stallbreaker.
Electabuzz is too frail to pull Magnet Rise off really because people don't need to rely on STAB EQs to beat it when they can just go to their Dusclops and WoW you or hit you hard with almost any neutral STAB hit and watch you die.
Electabuzz is too frail to pull Magnet Rise off really because people don't need to rely on STAB EQs to beat it when they can just go to their Dusclops and WoW you or hit you hard with almost any neutral STAB hit and watch you die.
I don't understand why people haven't realized this, but Monferno does get Close Combat, ya know.
Stall is very effective, but desperately needs checks for Su(b)perior and Golbat. Ryhdon can set up on Dusclops and Chansey, as with enough HP investment, they can't do shit to him and he can set up Rock Polish and Swords Dance and truly annihilate entire teams with his unresisted dual STABs.
I've yet to try Dragon Dance Seadra or Pupitar, but they may hold some promise.
Stall is very effective, but desperately needs checks for Su(b)perior and Golbat. Ryhdon can set up on Dusclops and Chansey, as with enough HP investment, they can't do shit to him and he can set up Rock Polish and Swords Dance and truly annihilate entire teams with his unresisted dual STABs.
I've yet to try Dragon Dance Seadra or Pupitar, but they may hold some promise.
The main problem with this statement is the bolded area. Pupitar can still be forced out, and since it's not in Sandstorm, even the slightest SE Special hit can smash it to bits. You have to be careful on what you set up on, or only when you force a switch.
With the ability Shed Shell, Pupitar can try to set up against the numerous Chanseys that are bound to litter the cup, having a chance at healing off status conditions before the opponent can get a counter/check up.