Milotic

[Murkglow]

With 100 Base SpA and no invested EVs, Milotic isn't doing much damage to anything with a 120 Base Power move. The common argument is that "Milotic isn't here to sweep" but it's important to hit switch-ins like Jolteon and other special sweepers for a substantial amount of damage to prevent them from repeatedly coming in to threaten Milotic.

I'm not convinced the damage difference is enough to a sweeper care more about being hit by surf then it does about being hit by boiling water (then again I'm still working with useing her in UU while you seem to want OU so we definatly have different environments we are thinking of). Also if you manage to hit the sweeper with a Burn then the damage difference is more then covered.

Secondly, Milotic's common switch-ins don't really care about burn. Let's think about this one: who commonly comes in to force Milotic out? Grasses and electrics, of course! What do these grasses and electrics hate with a passion? Toxic!

They do care about Burn, they just don't care about their Attack being cut (well some do, like Physical Vena and Tangrowth). Burn damage is still pretty respectable especially if they switch alot (as Toxic needs 3 turns of sustained damage to equal Burn's damage, if they swap it's weakened). And no one says you can't still run toxic if you like.

Thirdly, it develops a bad habit when you try to stay in on physical threats you can't beat just to give them a burn. 30% burn rate isn't very reliable, and it can prove to be deadly if you give these physical sweepers too much of an opportunity to set up.

Lets not assume that people will play stupid just to support one side of an argument. If staying in isn't smart then people shouldn't, boiling water or no. That doesn't change anything however argument wise. Boiling water doesn't require you to sit there for multiple turns if it's not in your favor to do so.

Also, you would just be asking for things like Guts Heracross/Machamp/Nageki/Roobushin to get a burn and set up on you. That's no fun.

No worse then hitting one with Toxic (which again might be a better status for them depending on how often they switch).

Unless the damage lose is significant enough to be noticeable I still don't see the down side.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I'm not convinced the damage difference is enough to a sweeper care more about being hit by surf then it does about being hit by boiling water (then again I'm still working with useing her in UU while you seem to want OU so we definatly have different environments we are thinking of). Also if you manage to hit the sweeper with a Burn then the damage difference is more then covered.

Milotic should always be run with Toxic and/or Toxic Spikes, because Milotic is just that much more effective with Toxic status being spread. This automatically cuts down Boiling Water's effectiveness, as Boiling Water and something that is already poisoned would coincide a vast majority of the time. This means that you are stuck with a 120 Base Power move when you can be enjoying a side-effect free 147.5 Base Power move.

They do care about Burn, they just don't care about their Attack being cut (well some do, like Physical Vena and Tangrowth)
Burn damage is still pretty respectable especially if they switch alot (as Toxic needs 3 turns of sustained damage to equal Burn's damage, if they swap it's weakened). And no one says you can't still run toxic if you like.

Sure, you can do whatever you want, but coinciding statuses are generally ineffective and wasteful. You wouldn't want to burn something that you want to Toxic instead! A perfect example is an opposing Milotic: they hate Toxic but love burn.

I think the main issue with this is that we are talking about different tiers. Toxic Spikes are horrible in UU because I have seen a Toxic Spikes absorber on nearly every team. In OU, they are much more effective. I generally like to think of Milotic as an OU Pokemon. :)

Lets not assume that people will play stupid just to support one side of an argument. If staying in isn't smart then people shouldn't, boiling water or no. That doesn't change anything however argument wise. Boiling water doesn't require you to sit there for multiple turns if it's not in your favor to do so.

You would be surprised. I have seen a few people that kept in their RestTalk Heatran in against a Gyarados just to spam Lava Plume and hope for a burn.

No worse then hitting one with Toxic (which again might be a better status for them depending on how often they switch).

Unless the damage lose is significant enough to be noticeable I still don't see the down side.

Yes, Toxic is much more effective than Burn against these fighters because they don't have much of an incentive to switch when they are able to set up in Milotic's face with little consequence. Toxic eventually nullifies the leftovers recovery of these fighters, which is extremely helpful in wearing them down.

The power lost is more significant than you think! If you play with it enough, you will understand that the power lost is very noticeable (especially over the course of two turns). The damage is even more noticeable when you are Toxic stalling and want as much damage against the opposing Pokemon as possible. Boiling Water is just piss weak and shouldn't be used on Toxic stalling sets.

By the way, I may join the Milotic avatar clan! Milotic is just...too cool.

Edit: Done! I suppose I am the black sheep, which is ironic because I'm not shiny...o_o

 

[GLS]

Milotic should always be run with Toxic and/or Toxic Spikes, because Milotic is just that much more effective with Toxic status being spread. This automatically cuts down Boiling Water's effectiveness, as Boiling Water and something that is already poisoned would coincide a vast majority of the time. This means that you are stuck with a 120 Base Power move when you can be enjoying a side-effect free 147.5 Base Power move.

Sure, you can do whatever you want, but coinciding statuses are generally ineffective and wasteful. You wouldn't want to burn something that you want to Toxic instead! A perfect example is an opposing Milotic: they hate Toxic but love burn.

I think the main issue with this is that we are talking about different tiers. Toxic Spikes are horrible in UU because I have seen a Toxic Spikes absorber on nearly every team. In OU, they are much more effective. I generally like to think of Milotic as an OU Pokemon. :)


You would be surprised. I have seen a few people that kept in their RestTalk Heatran in against a Gyarados just to spam Lava Plume and hope for a burn.

Yes, Toxic is much more effective than Burn against these fighters because they don't have much of an incentive to switch when they are able to set up in Milotic's face with little consequence. Toxic eventually nullifies the leftovers recovery of these fighters, which is extremely helpful in wearing them down.

The power lost is more significant than you think! If you play with it enough, you will understand that the power lost is very noticeable (especially over the course of two turns). The damage is even more noticeable when you are Toxic stalling and want as much damage against the opposing Pokemon as possible. Boiling Water is just piss weak and shouldn't be used on Toxic stalling sets.

By the way, I may join the Milotic avatar clan! Milotic is just...too cool.

Edit: Done! I suppose I am the black sheep, which is ironic because I'm not shiny...o_o

Eh, you seem to be basing your opinion on how well Milotic will do largely on Gen 4 ideas. From my personal experience using Milotic on the gen 5 simulator I just do not see her doing anything without resttalk. She just gets hit too damn hard by Garchomp and Drillmole and Roopushin and a few others. With Dragon Tail I like having Stealth Rock or regular Spikes out rather than Toxic spikes. From using her so far I just don't see her lasting long enough to take advantage of toxic stalling. Maybe things will change though, who knows. It's too early to have set in stone opinions either way.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Eh, you seem to be basing your opinion on how well Milotic will do largely on Gen 4 ideas. From my personal experience using Milotic on the gen 5 simulator I just do not see her doing anything without resttalk. She just gets hit too damn hard by Garchomp and Drillmole and Roopushin and a few others. With Dragon Tail I like having Stealth Rock or regular Spikes out rather than Toxic spikes. From using her so far I just don't see her lasting long enough to take advantage of toxic stalling. Maybe things will change though, who knows. It's too early to have set in stone opinions either way.

Milotic's RestTalk set is outclassed for the most part by Shufflecune. I generally wouldn't recommend that because Milotic has better things to do. Milotic struggles with those kinds physical sweepers in the same way that she did in Gen IV. You should use other members of your team to counter those physical threats, but if Milotic gets that marvel scale boost, it's more than capable of dealing with them.

You shouldn't underestimate Milotic! Make use of her strengths and she will be more than capable of pulling her weight around the team. :)

P.S. if Milotic isn't physically defensive enough for you, pair her up with a Bulky Salamence. They have awesome synergy together.

 

[GLS]

Milotic's RestTalk set is outclassed for the most part by Shufflecune. I generally wouldn't recommend that because Milotic has better things to do. Milotic struggles with those kinds physical sweepers in the same way that she did in Gen IV. You should use other members of your team to counter those physical threats, but if Milotic gets that marvel scale boost, it's more than capable of dealing with them.

You shouldn't underestimate Milotic! Make use of her strengths and she will be more than capable of pulling its weight around the team. :)

P.S. if Milotic isn't physically defensive enough for you, pair her up with a Bulky Salamence. They have awesome synergy together.

Getting up that Marvel Scale boost is exactly why the Resttalk set is so good. It's the only set where you have 100% control over when Milo has it unless you run a flame orb. And I don't particularly see the point of running a defensive Milotic that isn't capable of walling things herself. Who is she going to wall if it's not them? I mean obviously the strong electric/grass move users you don't keep her in, but now even pulling her against strong neutral hits? Why not just replace her completely if that's the case.

I have to disagree completely on Suicune pulling the set off better. Dragon Tail and Roar have completely different counters. Dragon Tail doesn't care about taunt and roar doesn't care about sub. I'm more worried about taunt personally since I can just tail the taunter away and with sub I can just attack it til the sub vanishes and then tail it away. Taunt on the other hand completely cripples you.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Getting up that Marvel Scale boost is exactly why the Resttalk set is so good. It's the only set where you have 100% control over when Milo has it unless you run a flame orb. And I don't particularly see the point of running a defensive Milotic that isn't capable of walling things herself. Who is she going to wall if it's not them? I mean obviously the strong electric/grass move users you don't keep her in, but now even pulling her against strong neutral hits? Why not just replace her completely if that's the case.

I have to disagree completely on Suicune pulling the set off better. Dragon Tail and Roar have completely different counters. Dragon Tail doesn't care about taunt and roar doesn't care about sub. I'm more worried about taunt personally since I can just tail the taunter away and with sub I can just attack it til the sub vanishes and then tail it away. Taunt on the other hand completely cripples you.

Shufflecune is better than RestTalk Milotic simply because of how reliable it is. It doesn't have to worry about Marvel Scale or anything like that, and can Roar out anything that doesn't have a STAB super effective move. Taunt is a non-issue because you never switch in a Shufflecune into a Gyarados that has leftovers recovery. Also, Pressure often helps get your team out of tight spots with opposing stall teams.

The only RestTalk set I would use is Surf, Rest, Sleep Talk, Recover. That thing is just devilish when paired with Toxic Spikes. :)

I see status being fairly prominent in this gen, since Will-O-Wisp Burunkeru will probably be on nearly every team. Boiling Water will also (unfortunately) be common on water types, giving Milotic many opportunities to activate Marvel Scale. Instant recovery is totally awesome on such a bulky Poke like Milotic. Take advantage of it, and relegate RestTalk to things that have no other option for recovery. ;)

These are Milotic's defensive stats before and after Marvel Scale (Calm 252 HP/240 Def/16 SpD EV spread)

Before: 394 HP/254 Def/319 SpD
After: 394 HP/381 Def/319 SpD

So ya, please explain how Milotic is "not bulky enough".

 

[GLS]

Shufflecune is better than RestTalk Milotic simply because of how reliable it is. It doesn't have to worry about Marvel Scale or anything like that, and can Roar out anything that doesn't have a STAB super effective move. Taunt is a non-issue because you never switch in a Shufflecune into a Gyarados that has leftovers recovery. Also, Pressure often helps get your team out of tight spots with opposing stall teams.

The only RestTalk set I would use is Surf, Rest, Sleep Talk, Recover. That thing is just devilish when paired with Toxic Spikes. :)

I see status being fairly prominent in this gen, since Will-O-Wisp Burunkeru will probably be on nearly every team. Boiling Water will also (unfortunately) be common on water types, giving Milotic many opportunities to activate Marvel Scale. Instant recovery is totally awesome on such a bulky Poke like Milotic. Take advantage of it, and relegate RestTalk to things that have no other option for recovery. ;)

These are Milotic's defensive stats before and after Marvel Scale (Calm 252 HP/240 Def/16 SpD EV spread:)

Before: 394 HP/254 Def/319 SpD
After: 394 HP/381 Def/319 SpD

So ya, please explain how Milotic is "not bulky enough".

Because I have first hand experienced Drillmole and Garchomp and Ononokusu taking her down to extremely low health in just one hit. Where you have no chance of recovering it off. You have to have Marvel Scale up in order to do so and you just can't rely on your opponents giving you status. What happens if you have to bring out Milotic before you are able to bait a burn or paralyze onto her? You have an ineffective wall. You use Rest over recover because it is and instant FULL heal that also raises her defense. All in one turn. And it makes her immune to toxic, just to top it all off. I fail to see how that is not playing up to her strengths.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Because I have first hand experienced Drillmole and Garchomp and Ononokusu taking her down to extremely low health in just one hit. Where you have no chance of recovering it off. You have to have Marvel Scale up in order to do so and you just can't rely on your opponents giving you status. What happens if you have to bring out Milotic before you are able to bait a burn or paralyze onto her? You have an ineffective wall. You use Rest over recover because it is and instant FULL heal that also raises her defense. All in one turn. And it makes her immune to toxic, just to top it all off. I fail to see how that is not playing up to her strengths.

Let me repeat this: Milotic is NOT meant to counter those physical threats. It's merely a defensive pivot or a secondary check to those threats in case your Skarmory, Hippowdon, or *insert revenge killer* is dead. Marvel Scale is a luxury, not a necessity. Oh, and toxic? Run it with Aromatherapy Blissey/Roserade.

Seriously, I just don't understand why I would use RestTalk Milotic (without Recover) over Shufflecune. Cune is just SO much more reliable. Anyway, Milotic's niche is Toxic + Recover stalling, not RestTalk Shuffling!

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Shufflecune doesn't have to worry about Marvel Scale? Shufflecune doesn't have Marvel Scale--Marvel Scale is the reason to run a Sleep-Talk Milotic. So far I've been testing the rest-talker and it's been doing really well! Also, Milotic's niche is evolving with this generation as Dragon Tail has easily improved its niche as a resttalker and Boiling Water has given it a decent status move.

It's funny that you mention Toxic Spikes support because Shuffletic is actually better at implementing them by far.

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

It can Shuffle, it still has an excellent RestTalk set, it can distribute burns even better....who said this thing hasnt gained anything? It wont go up to OU, but it retains its place as a solid UU.

 

[Delko]

It's a real competition for RestTalk Gyarados now. While Milotic doesn't have Intimidate it does have Marvel Scale and not a weakness to SR.
I can see an uprise of Milotic users.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Shufflecune doesn't have to worry about Marvel Scale? Shufflecune doesn't have Marvel Scale--Marvel Scale is the reason to run a Sleep-Talk Milotic. So far I've been testing the rest-talker and it's been doing really well! Also, Milotic's niche is evolving with this generation as Dragon Tail has easily improved its niche as a resttalker and Boiling Water has given it a decent status move.

It's funny that you mention Toxic Spikes support because Shuffletic is actually better at implementing them by far.

When I said that Suicune doesn't have to worry about Marvel Scale, I meant that he doesn't have to have to be statused to have such high physical defense. While Milotic has higher special defense, remember that she can't pHaze things like Sub-CM Jirachi or any other substitute user for that matter. Also, pressure is an AMAZING ability on a RestTalker, and it can far more easily outstall things like Blissey than Milotic. In fact, the only times I would prefer Dragon Tail over Roar are against Gliscor Baton Pass teams and Tauntrados (who Milotic can't beat anyway). Also, the 90% accuracy is incovenient in tight spots.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

When I said that Suicune doesn't have to worry about Marvel Scale, I meant that he doesn't have to have to be statused to have such high physical defense. While Milotic has higher special defense, remember that she can't pHaze things like Sub-CM Jirachi or any other substitute user for that matter. Also, pressure is an AMAZING ability on a RestTalker, and it can far more easily outstall things like Blissey than Milotic. In fact, the only times I would prefer Dragon Tail over Roar are against Gliscor Baton Pass teams and Tauntrados (who Milotic can't beat anyway). Also, the 90% accuracy is incovenient in tight spots.

Wait, you're saying Suicune beats Taunt Gyarados? The way I see it, Gyarados Taunts and Milotic uses Dragon Tail, removing the threat of a sweep.

 

[IcyMan28]

Remember that because sleep now resets every time you switch out, you may find yourself having to Rest to activate Marvel Scale much less frequently, which mitigates that issue. Assuming an EV spread of 252/240/16 Calm, Milotic has effective base stats of 95/131/125 when asleep, which are far superior to Suicune's. It also has higher SpA at the cost of slightly lower speed, and can pull off the same shuffling with a neutral priority Dragon Tail (which also helps against Taunt).

In other words, if Suicune wants to outclass Milotic with a ResTalk set, it needs to emphasize Pressure/Water Absorb and Calm Mind rather than sheer bulk.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Wait, you're saying Suicune beats Taunt Gyarados? The way I see it, Gyarados Taunts and Milotic uses Dragon Tail, removing the threat of a sweep.

No, I never said that Suicune beats Taunt Gyarados. Milotic can't be your only Gyarados check because, if Gyarados comes out as a last Pokemon, you would be unable to do anything to it (Dragon Tail can't pHaze a last Pokemon). Thus, RestTalk Suicune and RestTalk Milotic would require separate Gyarados counters. I admit that Dragon Tail is actually pretty good in this case, but it's one of the only times I would prefer Dragon Tail to Roar.

Milotic may have superior defense to Suicune when sleeping, but it's actually pretty mediocre while she is awake. Suicune is more reliable as a whole because Roar is an all-around better move than Dragon Tail (higher PP, higher accuracy, able to pHaze subs), and Suicune does not have to be asleep to have such high physical defense.

Also, you guys aren't putting enough emphasis on how awesome Pressure is. You switch into Fire Blast/Close Combat/whatever, and 2 PP is automatically drained from your opponents counter. It can also out-stall any Pokemon that don't have Super Effective STAB (Skarmory, Blissey, Vaporeon, etc.).

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

No, I never said that Suicune beats Taunt Gyarados. Milotic can't be your only Gyarados check because, if Gyarados comes out as a last Pokemon, you would be unable to do anything to it (Dragon Tail can't pHaze a last Pokemon). Thus, RestTalk Suicune and RestTalk Milotic would require separate Gyarados counters. I admit that Dragon Tail is actually pretty good in this case, but it's one of the only times I would prefer Dragon Tail to Roar.

Milotic may have superior defense to Suicune when sleeping, but it's actually pretty mediocre while she is awake. Suicune is more reliable as a whole because Roar is an all-around better move than Dragon Tail (higher PP, higher accuracy, able to pHaze subs), and Suicune does not have to be asleep to have such high physical defense.

Also, you guys aren't putting enough emphasis on how awesome Pressure is. You switch into Fire Blast/Close Combat/whatever, and 2 PP is automatically drained from your opponents counter. It can also out-stall any Pokemon that don't have Super Effective STAB (Skarmory, Blissey, Vaporeon, etc.).

Yea,but Suicune NEEDS to Rest at some point. Just because Milotic has recover doesn't mean that it doesn't make an excellent sleeptalker. Look, I understand what you're saying, but I put a lot of thought into making my Shuffletic set, and it's doing just fine, thankyou.

Anyway, has anybody been able to test it in the 5th generation? It's a lot easier to make sets when multiple people have tried stuff out!

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Hmm, does anybody think Milotic has potential with Magic Coat?

 

[CanadiEntei]

Hmm, does anybody think Milotic has potential with Magic Coat?

Reminds me of a physical Milotic edit I met once. Just add Dream World's Cute Charm as you moveslot Magic Coat. Or not.

Physical Milotic options are possible this year? Santa???

Level Ground and Dragon Tail...

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Reminds me of a physical Milotic edit I met once. Just add Dream World's Cute Charm as you moveslot Magic Coat. Or not.

Physical Milotic options are possible this year? Santa???

Level Ground and Dragon Tail...

Magic Coat and Cute Charm are illegal. Perhaps Milotic could be an anti-lead with Magic Coat, Recover, Dragon Tail/Hypnosis, and Boiling Water? Use Magic Coat to reflect their hazards than force a switch.

 

[Banryu]

Milotic
Bold/Calm Nature
Evs: 252 HP/252 Defense/4 Speed OR 252 HP/252 Special Defense/4 Speed
Ability: Marvel Scale
@Leftovers
=/ Boiling Water
=/ Ice Beam/Icy Wind
=/ Hypnosis/Haze/Light Screen/Hidden Power/Mirror Coat/Toxic
=/ Recover

Boiling Water Milotic? =D Hooray. I see this as easier ops to use Mirror Coat, since you can alleviate that physical defense with Burn. EV-wise, I had a Milotic that was EV'd with 252 HP and only 100 SDef, and it survived and Mirror Coated most of the time. Although someone should really do some calcs to see what it needs to survive certain hits...

Milotic
Bold/Calm Nature
Evs: 252 HP/252 Defense/4 Speed OR 252 HP/252 Special Defense/4 Speed
Ability: Marvel Scale
@Leftovers
=/ Boiling Water
=/ Rest
=/ Sleep Talk
=/ Toxic/Dragon Tail/Ice Beam/Hidden Power

=0 Rest AND Recover? ...no. Toxic should be the primary option on Restalk, then all the secondary Attacking options.

Magic Coat and Cute Charm are illegal. Perhaps Milotic could be an anti-lead with Magic Coat, Recover, Dragon Tail/Hypnosis, and Boiling Water? Use Magic Coat to reflect their hazards than force a switch.

As long as Magic Coat goes before priority-Taunt, (which... I have no clue if that's the case or not) then that would be lovely~ It wouldn't even have to be a lead, it could also Magicoat Toxic onto other Milotics/Bulky Waters trying to poison it.

 

[Murkglow]

As long as Magic Coat goes before priority-Taunt

It does. Priority Taunt is +1, Magic Coat is +4 I believe.

 

[Banryu]

It does. Priority Taunt is +1, Magic Coat is +4 I believe.

Awesome, well then that's even more perfect for a lead set. :O Bouncing back supposedly-priority taunts back in the faces of their users... with Erufuun and Landlos that seems especially useful.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

No. Toxic's bad on the resttalk because it means Milotic won't attack as much--at least with recover, you're guaranteed to keep your HP up with marvel scale.

Anyway, has anyone had a chance to test Milotic in this generation? I feel like people are falling head over heels for Burungel when barring HP, it has worse stats in every way and more weaknesses.

I need people to help me decide which is best in the last moveslot for the standard mixed Wall (252 HP/252 Def/4 Special Attack Bold)

Boiling Water
Ice Beam
Recover

Hidden Power Electric no longer has much merit as Milotic won't be killing other bulky waters--especially because Gyarados is gone. Hypnosis' accuracy hasn't gone up at all. Dragon Tail or Haze could work I suppose...

Anyway, I'm wondering... if Burungeru runs 252 HP/252 Special Defense, should Milotic? Although Milotic only has Boiling Water to burn, so maybe not.

However, I see many Burungeru using Boiling Water/Toxic/Recover/Shadow Ball, so couldn't the same moveset work on Milotic with Ice Beam over Shadow Ball? Toxic would ruin many setup sweepers AND take care of opposing bulky waters!

Opinions?

Boiling Water Milotic? =D Hooray. I see this as easier ops to use Mirror Coat, since you can alleviate that physical defense with Burn. EV-wise, I had a Milotic that was EV'd with 252 HP and only 100 SDef, and it survived and Mirror Coated most of the time. Although someone should really do some calcs to see what it needs to survive certain hits...


=0 Rest AND Recover? ...no. Toxic should be the primary option on Restalk, then all the secondary Attacking options.


As long as Magic Coat goes before priority-Taunt, (which... I have no clue if that's the case or not) then that would be lovely~ It wouldn't even have to be a lead, it could also Magicoat Toxic onto other Milotics/Bulky Waters trying to poison it.

 

[Blue Ditto]

Actually, I've used the ToxicResttalk set. It was one of the most popular Milotic sets back in Gen III (ancient, I know) and personally I preferred it over the standard Recover one...honestly, she didn't need to run an extra attack or Recover. Now, things have obviously changed, but I'm willing to bet it's still a viable option.

And the thing about Mr. Pringles is that he's got WoW, Water Absorb or Cursed Body to play with, and he's got two valuable immunities to Fighting and Normal, plus the potential extra immunity to water, and resistances to Bug, Poison, Fire, Steel, and Ice. All of that, for two extra weaknesses to Dark and Ghost and slightly less bulk and power than Milotic. It's not a terrible trade-off. Plus, they're funny looking.

It would be nice to see a Milotic resurgence, though. And...do you mean Ice Beam over Shadow Ball? :/

 

[Murkglow]

No. Toxic's bad on the resttalk

I totally disagree. I've had great success with Toxic rest/talk Milotic in Gen 4. I'm not saying it's the only option or anything but Toxic is (or at least was) most definatly a very viable move.