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Milotic

Murkglow said:
I totally disagree. I've had great success with Toxic rest/talk Milotic in Gen 4. I'm not saying it's the only option or anything but Toxic is (or at least was) most definatly a very viable move.
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What happens after you Toxic them? You lie stagnate for longer. You'd be better iff with Recover to stall even longer or Dragon Tail to spread entry hazard damage.

Trust me, I've tried it, too!

Cipher Admin Lovrina said:
No. Toxic's bad on the resttalk because it means Milotic won't attack as much--at least with recover, you're guaranteed to keep your HP up with marvel scale.

Anyway, has anyone had a chance to test Milotic in this generation? I feel like people are falling head over heels for Burungel when barring HP, it has worse stats in every way and more weaknesses.

I need people to help me decide which is best in the last moveslot for the standard mixed Wall (252 HP/252 Def/4 Special Attack Bold)

Boiling Water
Ice Beam
Recover

Hidden Power Electric no longer has much merit as Milotic won't be killing other bulky waters--especially because Gyarados is gone. Hypnosis' accuracy hasn't gone up at all. Dragon Tail or Haze could work I suppose...

Anyway, I'm wondering... if Burungeru runs 252 HP/252 Special Defense, should Milotic? Although Milotic only has Boiling Water to burn, so maybe not.

However, I see many Burungeru using Boiling Water/Toxic/Recover/Shadow Ball, so couldn't the same moveset work on Milotic with Ice Beam over Shadow Ball? Toxic would ruin many setup sweepers AND take care of opposing bulky waters!

Opinions?
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For the sake of keeping a discussion going.
 
Cipher Admin Lovrina said:
What happens after you Toxic them? You lie stagnate for longer.
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I have no idea what you're talking about.
If you're awake then you obviously start surfing/boiling water them. If you're asleep then you just keep sleep talking if they can't beat you and if they can then you swap to a proper counter (with the bonus of them being toxiced). Recover leaves you utterly walled quite easily, that's surely just as bad as Toxic not being effective.

There are plenty of good options, I for one am not against the use of Recover or Dragon Tail (in fact I might swap to Dragon Tail this gen), but I will stand by Toxic as a valid choice.
 
Murkglow said:
I have no idea what you're talking about.
If you're awake then you obviously start surfing/boiling water them. If you're asleep then you just keep sleep talking if they can't beat you and if they can then you swap to a proper counter (with the bonus of them being toxiced). Recover leaves you utterly walled quite easily, that's surely just as bad as Toxic not being effective.

There are plenty of good options, I for one am not against the use of Recover or Dragon Tail (in fact I might swap to Dragon Tail this gen), but I will stand by Toxic as a valid choice.
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So... you attack... rest off damage, then sleep talk until you get a Toxic in? It seems iffy to me--Toxic is an even worse choice with Boiling Water.

The only reason I recommend Boiling Water and Toxic on the recover version is because I've seen so many Burungeru floating around with the combination and it's quite easy to use one's discretion (almost like a double status set). You Toxic their walls and burn their physical sweepers--since your not even guaranteed to nail them with the burn, toxic is a great way to punish an opponent for staying in.
 
Cipher Admin Lovrina said:
So... you attack... rest off damage, then sleep talk until you get a Toxic in? It seems iffy to me
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I don't understand. What do you mean by iffy?

You should be Toxicing as much as possible until you a) know they won't switch, or B) need to Rest, at which point you're at the mercy of whatever move sleep/talk picks (as always). You don't attack then toxic, you toxic then attack.

Toxic is an even worse choice with Boiling Water.
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True, double status is a problem. With a Toxic set you might just run Surf.
 
Murkglow said:
I don't understand. What do you mean by iffy?

You should be toxicing as much as possible until you a) know they won't switch, or B) need to rest, at which point you're at the mercy of whatever move sleep/talk picks (as always). You don't attack then toxic, you toxic then attack.



True, double status is a problem. With a Toxic set you might just run Surf.
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What I'm saying is that Sleep Talk already puts you at the mercy of randomosity, so you'd be better off with another attack. You have a 33% chance of choosing Rest, the last thing you need is 66% chance of not attacking at all as it means the turns you used to heal yourself are spent being essentially idle.
 
Cipher Admin Lovrina said:
What I'm saying is that Sleep Talk already puts you at the mercy of randomosity, so you'd be better off with another attack. You have a 33% chance of choosing Rest, the last thing you need is 66% chance of not attacking at all as it means the turns you used to heal yourself are spent being essentially idle.
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While you might be "idle" your Toxic isn't and is quite likely doing more damage to some pokes then running another attack does. For example the common second attack for rest/talk milotic is Ice Beam. If you're facing a bulky water (like say Suicune) Toxic is golden while Ice Beam is "meh" (even HP Electric won't likely cut it vs Suicune). It will do far far more damage to them then anything else you could do (especially now since I believe it got water absorb). Toxic is also great vs Chansey.
 
Murkglow said:
While you might be "idle" your Toxic isn't and is quite likely doing more damage to some pokes then running another attack does. For example the common second attack for rest/talk milotic is Ice Beam. If you're facing a bulky water (like say Suicune) Toxic is golden while Ice Beam is "meh" (even HP Electric won't likely cut it vs Suicune). It will do far far more damage to them then anything else you could do (especially now since I believe it got water absorb). Toxic is also great vs Chansey.
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Which is why I recommend Toxic on the non-sleep talk set. Toxic is a good move on Milotic, but not the best choice on the rest-talker... at least not now anyway with Boiling Water and Dragon Tail making themselves far superior.

Remember, Suicune can't have Sleep Talk AND Water Absorb, so either Toxicing it with the Recover version or Dragon Tailing it with the Sleeptalker is your best bet now.
 
Cute charm? Way to troll, gamefreak. Whilst it technically makes sense for it to have it, I think it should have gotten storm drain or water absorb. Hell, seaking got lightningrod so it can block your thunderbolt even if you aim at the horn.
 
Cipher Admin Lovrina said:
Remember, Suicune can't have Sleep Talk AND Water Absorb, so either Toxicing it with the Recover version or Dragon Tailing it with the Sleeptalker is your best bet now.
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Actually Toxic wins at least as often as Recover sets do. If they sleeptalk then they only have CM as a possible way to win vs Milotic (in which case they can be massively walled) and are easy set up bait for another of your pokes (also since you like Recover as an option, you can't beat a CM sleep/talk Suicune with a recover/sleeptalker as you have no way to damage them enough and you will easily get pp stalled out). If they don't have CM then they likely can't win vs Milotic and get PP stalled out by toxic.

Without Sleep/talk Toxic just destroys them outright... So no I still don't agree that Toxic isn't worthwhile on a sleep/talk set. Though again, let me say that I'm mearly saying it's a valid option, not the best or only option.
 
Limewire said:
Troll (physical 60): Raises base power if other mons on your team have it.

Dragon Tail (physical 60): Forces target to switch (I believe it has a negative priority). Neither of the two look appealing to Milotic.

And WOW, Milotic really got nothing this time. Cute Charm? Really? The only thing that separates her from the other bulky waters are Confuse Ray, Recover and Marvel Scale. Perhaps a stall set like Toxic/Confuse Ray/Surf/Recover would be viable?
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Um really??? Dragon tail is joy on Rest/Talk Milotic...

Keep Yourself asleep as needs be and Shuffle your opponents!! with rocks/spikes/tspikes suppport you are deadly! this set makes vaporeon look bad Mainly because of its Marvel scale ability which doubles defense when sleeping... it may seem gimmicky but it freaking works like magic!

well i can only boast of my Milotic on my team really but hey

Milotic @ Leftovers
Calm
EVS 212 Hp 240 Def 56 Sp.Def
- Boil Over
- Dragon Tail
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Its a well balanced set but I find myself running from stabbed Super effective moves... since dragon tail doesnt dish out damage pokes with subs that dont take damage from boil over will need to have someone else handle em but this thing is a beast!! just try it on any team! doesnt even have to be stall... Milotic is finally a great wall forcing switches and making trainers think about thier next move... too bad sleep talk only has 16 PP :(
 
I've decided to go ahead an compile a list of threats that Milotic can effectively take on this generation, not only as a reference but to kind of have an idea of the kinds of pokemon Milotic will want to challenge:

350.gif
Milotic@Leftovers
Calm; 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD

Rest
Sleep Talk
Dragon Tail
Boiling Water

I'll assume ResTalk to provide Milotic with nearly 400 defense while asleep, and when it isn't, Boiling Water patches things up. Bolded pokemon are those that Milotic can take with Marvel Scale that it otherwise couldn't.

Without Marvel Scale

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- Charizard 252 SpA Timid LO Solar Power HP Grass vs. 391/319 Milotic: (49.62% - 58.82%)

- Ninetales 252 SpA Timid LO +2 Energy Ball vs. 391/319 Milotic: (62.40% - 73.66%)

- Moltres 252 SpA Modest LO Energy Ball vs. 391/319 Milotic: (40.41% - 47.57%)

- Houndoom 252 SpA Timid +2 Dark Pulse vs. 391/319 Milotic: (57.03% - 67.52%)

- Blaziken 252 SpA Rash LO HP Grass vs. 391/319 Milotic: (36.83% - 43.48%)

- Infernape 252 SpA Naive LO Grass Knot vs. 391/319 Milotic: (46.04% - 54.22%)

- Infernape 6 Atk Naive LO Close Combat vs. 391/257 Milotic: (40.92% - 48.59%)

- Magmortar 252 SpA Timid LO Thunderbolt vs. 391/319 Milotic: (49.62% - 58.82%)

- Heatran 252 SpA Timid LO HP Grass vs. 391/319 Milotic: (37.85% - 45.01%)

- Victini 252 SpA Timid LO +1 Thunderbolt vs. 391/319 Milotic: (63.94% - 75.70%)

- Shandera 252 SpA Timid Energy Ball vs. 391/319 Milotic: (35.81% - 42.46%)

- Urugamosu 252 SpA Timid LO +1 Bug Buzz vs. 391/319 Milotic: (56.01% - 65.98%)

- Suicune 252 SpA Modest LO +1 HP Electric vs. 391/319 Milotic: (48.08% - 56.78%)

- Vaporeon 252 SpA Modest +1 HP Electric vs. 391/319 Milotic: (42.46% - 50.13%)

- Starmie 252 SpA Timid LO Thunderbolt vs. 391/319 Milotic: (42.46% - 50.13%)

- Omastar 252 SpA Modest LO +2 Rain Hydro Pump vs. 391/319 Milotic: (72.63% - 85.68%)

- Kingdra 252 SpA Modest +1 Draco Meteor vs. 391/319 Milotic: (57.54% - 67.77%)

- Gorebyss 252 SpA Modest LO +2 Rain Hydro Pump vs. 391/319 Milotic: (72.12% - 84.91%)

- Empoleon 252 SpA Modest +1 Torrent Hydro Pump vs. 391/319 Milotic: (40.92% - 48.34%)

- Empoleon 252 SpA Modest Grass Knot vs. 391/319 Milotic: (40.41% - 48.08%)

- Daikenki 252 SpA Rash LO Grass Knot vs. 391/319 Milotic: (52.17% - 61.38%)

- Jirachi 6 SpA Timid +1 Thunderbolt vs. 391/319 Milotic: (38.87% - 46.04%)

- Lucario 252 SpA Timid LO +2 Aura Sphere vs. 391/319 Milotic: (66.24% - 78.26%)

- Genusekuto 252 SpA Timid +1 Thunderbolt vs. 391/319 Milotic: (40.66% - 47.83%)

- Kyuremu 252 SpA Naive LO Draco Meteor vs. 391/319 Milotic: (56.27% - 66.75%)

- Yanmega 252 SpA Timid LO Bug Buzz vs. 391/319 Milotic: (33.76% - 39.90%)

- Zoroark 252 SpA Timid LO +2 Night Burst vs. 391/319 Milotic: (64.45% - 75.96%)

- Sazandora 252 SpA Timid +1 Draco Meteor vs. 391/319 Milotic: (62.92% - 74.42%)

- Latios 252 SpA Timid LO Draco Meteor vs. 391/319 Milotic: (56.27% - 66.75%)

- Salamence 252 SpA Naive LO Draco Meteor vs. 391/319 Milotic: (49.87% - 59.08%)

Notice that the majority of these are special hits; this is just to prove that Milotic is actually a pretty capable sponge on the special side. Now for physical hits (all assume Marvel Scale):

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- Charizard 252 Atk Jolly +6 Earthquake vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (50.90% - 60.10%)

- [B]Arcanine[/B] 252 Atk Adamant +1 Wild Volt vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (45.52% - 53.71%)

- [B]Blaziken[/B] 60 Atk Rash LO Hi Jump Kick vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (35.29% - 41.69%)

- Blaziken 252 Atk Jolly LO +2 Hi Jump Kick vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (82.10% - 96.68%)

- [B]Infernape[/B] 252 Atk Naive LO +2 Close Combat vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (68.29% - 80.56%)

- Emboar 252 Atk Brave LO Reckless Wild Volt vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (58.31% - 69.05%)

- Hihidaruma 252 Atk Jolly CB Superpower vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (32.48% - 38.36%)

- Cloyster 252 Atk Jolly LO +2 5-Hit Rock Blast vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (44.76% - 52.69%)

- Gyarados 252 Atk Adamant LO +1 Bounce vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (45.52% - 53.71%)

- [B]Kabutops[/B] 252 Atk Adamant LO +2 Stone Edge vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (67.01% - 79.03%)

- Azumarill 252 Atk Adamant CB Double-Edge vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (37.60% - 44.25%)

- Kingdra 252 Atk Adamant LO +1 Outrage vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (52.94% - 62.40%)

- Kerudio 252 SpA Timid LO +1 Sword of Mystery vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (42.46% - 50.13%)

- Scizor 252 Atk Adamant CB U-Turn vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (29.92% - 35.29%)

- Aggron 252 Atk Adamant LO Head Smash vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (48.59% - 57.54%)

- [B]Metagross[/B] 252 Atk Adamant CB Explosion vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (72.38% - 85.17%)

- [B]Lucario[/B] 252 Atk Adamant LO +2 Close Combat vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (78.26% - 92.07%)

- [B]Doryuuzu[/B] 252 Atk Adamant LO +2 Earthquake vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (74.62% - 87.82%)

- Mamoswine 252 Atk Jolly CB Earthquake vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (38.62% - 45.52%)

- Tyranitar 252 Atk Adamant CB Stone Edge vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (43.22% - 50.90%)

- Salamence 252 Atk Naive LO +1 Outrage vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (61.38% - 72.38%)

- Garchomp 252 Atk Jolly +2 Outrage vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (61.38% - 72.38%)

- [B]Ononokusu[/B] 252 Atk Jolly +2 LO Outrage vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (87.47% - 103.07%)

- Ononokusu 252 Atk Adamant +1 LO Outrage vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (72.12% - 85.17%)

- [B]Heracross[/B] 252 Atk Adamant +1 CB Megahorn vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (73.66% - 86.96%)

- [B]Terakion[/B] 252 Atk Jolly +2 LO Close Combat vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (79.28% - 93.61%)

- Terakion 252 Atk Jolly +2 LO Sacred Sword vs. 391/257 Milotic: (89.26% - 105.37%)

- Randorosu 252 Atk Jolly +2 LO Non-Sand Earthquake vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (64.72% - 76.14%)

- Randorosu 252 Atk Adamant LO Sand Earthquake vs. 391/257 +1 Milotic: (52.54% - 61.93%)

Ononokusu 252 Atk Jolly +2 LO Outrage vs. 416/302 Lugia: (104.81% - 123.56%)

Basically, Milotic is bulkier than Gen 5 Lugia without the Stealth Rock weakness, and admittedly lower SpD. Threats that Milotic can check with Marvel Scale activated include:

-Adamant CB Arcanine
-Jolly DD Mence
-Jolly SD Chomp
-Adamant DD Ononokusu (Basically DDRay)
-Jolly SD Blaziken
-Rash MixKen
-Jolly SD Terakion
-Rain Sweepers (DD/MixDra, Adamant SD Kabutops, Modest Shell Break Gorebyss/Omastar)
-Sand Sweepers (CB/DD AdamantTar, Adamant SD Dory, Adamant RP SPower Randorosu)
-SD Luke / NP Luke
-Urugamosu
-Kerudio
-MixMence


Those are some of the metagame's top threats (Dory, Garchomp, Terakion, Urugamosu, Kerudio, Genusekuto), at least currently, and Milotic is able to check them all in one package, either phazing them or flat out attacking (with a potential burn side effect no less). Dragon Tail allows Milotic to deal with all of these rather than choose (aka Ice Beam vs. HP Electric vs. Toxic vs. Haze, etc). Be sure to pack a grass or electric type.
 
I have to ask, is Milotic really a "check" for something like Ononokusu 252 Atk Jolly +2 LO Outrage when she is dependent on Sleep/Talk to hit Dragon Tail to phase it away? I mean without Marvel Scale she dies (and even with it it's possible for her to be OHKO'd, especially with entry hazards on the field) so she must be resting, have full health, and have her sleep/talk choose Dragon Tail first thing....

I honestly don't know if I'd call that a check.
 
^Milotic has about a 44% chance to cripple Ononokusu (1/3 Dragon Tail + 1/9 Burn Chance), and actually has the bulk to take a hit from what is essentially a SD Rayquaza LO Outrage. In practice, you'd be much better off using ScarfJirachi or something to revenge it/switch in on the setup, but the point of that calc was to show the sheer bulk that Marvel Scale Milotic brings to the table (with a neutral nature nonetheless).

As far as "hard-countering" Ononokusu goes, it's probably one of the best options outside of Skarmory; she just happens to check several other things as well. I admit that I use the term "check" loosely when talking about Onono.
 
IcyMan28 said:
^Milotic has about a 44% chance to cripple Ononokusu (1/3 Dragon Tail + 1/9 Burn Chance), and actually has the bulk to take a hit from what is essentially a SD Rayquaza LO Outrage. In practice, you'd be much better off using ScarfJirachi or something to revenge it/switch in on the setup, but the point of that calc was to show the sheer bulk that Marvel Scale Milotic brings to the table (with a neutral nature nonetheless).

As far as "hard-countering" Ononokusu goes, it's probably one of the best options outside of Skarmory; she just happens to check several other things as well. I admit that I use the term "check" loosely when talking about Onono.
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So is a set with Recover or Sleep Talk the best?
 
I'd personally run Recover. Status is everywhere these days anwyway what with Nattorei Thunder Wave, Erefuun, and Will-o-wisps.

Boiling Water / Recover / Dragon Tail / Filler would probably work. Ice Beam or Toxic is probably best in the last slot.
 
Flareon said:
Cute charm? Way to troll, gamefreak. Whilst it technically makes sense for it to have it, I think it should have gotten storm drain or water absorb. Hell, seaking got lightningrod so it can block your thunderbolt even if you aim at the horn.
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Hell, why not just Regeneration? Mamanbou got it, and Milotic does get Recover, so I guess it makes sense in some vague thematic way. That, or Multiscale. That would be a royal pain to take out, what with Recover backing her up. Hell, Dragonite gets Roost with Multiscale, why not Milotic? Different breeds of scales and such.

More on topic: After reading the RestTalk discussion above me, Dragon Tail sounds just delicious.
 
The Sleeptalker looks like a great utility Pokemon, being able to absorb status, dish out status of it's own and phaze but what nags me is the fact that by far the most common sleep-inducer in the metagame is Breloom - and he just happens to kick the crap out of Milotic.

It's also a bit annoying that Dragon Tail cannot reliably phaze Ninjask due to it's inability to break his Substitutes even if he has 0 HP and 0 Def investment. So if you can't crack through those 61/45 defenses you can pretty much just forget about anything else that has Substitute.

So as a sleep absorber she struggles, and as a phazer she has a huge flaw. She's also very reliant on luck, even moreso than other Restalkers. She not only has to deal with that blasted 1/3 chance of Sleep Talk picking Rest (or the equally annoying chance that you just suddenley wake up and Sleep Talk fails, or the chance that Sleep Talk picks Boiling Water when you REALLY needed it to pick Dragon Tail), but she also needs to constantly pray that the 30% burn chance of Boiling Water kicks in.

Oh, and don't forget she faces stiff competition from Suicune as a Sleep Talking Bulky Water.

Dragon Tail and Boiling Water are huge boons for her but she still has her share of problems.
 
i have been playing on pokemon online and i have been using her to great success,the shuffletic exatly, but
i love to call the set "sleeping beauty" because to me she is the most beautiful pokemon ever
Sleeping beauty
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Boiling Water
-Dragon Tail
Nature: Calm
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/240 Def/16 SDef
Ability: Marvel Scale
Like this,she's a hell of a tank as she takes perfectly hits from the two sides of the spectrum but to take hits on her def she must be statued wich is so easy by the way this gen.
she is just amazing as she "destroys" so many huge threats like the fire bug and the dragons (yes even garchomp and salamence and the new dark dragon) .

She also laughs at her fellow bulky waters when they try to boost (crocune or DD gyara)and she just adores the jelly fish who will burn her on the switch and she dragon tail him away but in return at 1v1 i don't see how they can be taken down.

But,the key to success of such a set is entry hazard and it happens that nattorei is perfect to set up hazards and to absorb the electric and grass attacks pointed at her.

@lee:yes she's reliant on luck but don't forget that she can afford to pick the wrong attack as when sleeping she's sooo bulky.Then, about the 30% chance to burn,she simply deosn't need it
to work effectivly (when sleeping of course which is now so easy thanks to the new mechanics of rest) but it is a luxury that will make her even more bulky.
About brellom,i personally absord the spore with her and then i switch to something that resist grass and can revenge kill (and there are a lot of those).
About ninjask,she's no more as popular because of speed boost blaziken who can pass the speed boost and sword dance and she can phaze the hell out of blaziken(but she MUST be sleeping).

I must say she got a huge upgrade this gen (thanks to dragon tail essentially) and i must say that she and suicune work completely differently and each one of them is great on his way.

PS:excuse my english i'm not native
 
Lee said:
The Sleeptalker looks like a great utility Pokemon, being able to absorb status, dish out status of it's own and phaze but what nags me is the fact that by far the most common sleep-inducer in the metagame is Breloom - and he just happens to kick the crap out of Milotic.

It's also a bit annoying that Dragon Tail cannot reliably phaze Ninjask due to it's inability to break his Substitutes even if he has 0 HP and 0 Def investment. So if you can't crack through those 61/45 defenses you can pretty much just forget about anything else that has Substitute.

So as a sleep absorber she struggles, and as a phazer she has a huge flaw. She's also very reliant on luck, even moreso than other Restalkers. She not only has to deal with that blasted 1/3 chance of Sleep Talk picking Rest (or the equally annoying chance that you just suddenley wake up and Sleep Talk fails, or the chance that Sleep Talk picks Boiling Water when you REALLY needed it to pick Dragon Tail), but she also needs to constantly pray that the 30% burn chance of Boiling Water kicks in.

Oh, and don't forget she faces stiff competition from Suicune as a Sleep Talking Bulky Water.

Dragon Tail and Boiling Water are huge boons for her but she still has her share of problems.
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Except Suicune can't get past Taunt and doesn't get a defense boost!
 
I wonder if Dragonair with Pre-evo stone, Marvel scale[DW], and a Rest+Sleep Talk set compares to Milotic?

Dragonair: @ Pre-evo Stone
252 HP / 8 Def / 248 SpD + CALM = ( 326 HP / 250 Def / 393 SpD ) With marvel scale active = 375 Def

VS
252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD + CALM = (394 HP / 244 Def / 330) With Marvel Scale active = 366 Def
 
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