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Mix-and-Mega — Now with Primals!
- Thread starter FlameUser64
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And beedrillite is banned anyways
Pinsirite Licki. Because now a fat thing can fly. Pretty funny.
Actually, Heat Crash and Heavy Slam have a minimum BP of 40, while low kick and grass knot have a minimum BP of 20. At least, that's what veekun and bulbapedia say.
Low Kick/Grass Knot minimum base power is 20. Heavy Slam and Heat Crash might have a higher minimum though.
Edit: Ninja'd.
The mere concept of Mega Evolving from two different sources simultaneously is hilarious and I applaud you for it. I'll add some Obvious Rules Patches for stunts like this to the OP when I have free time.
Why remove that? Smeargle mega-evolving into Mega Rayquaza leaves it with 55/50/45/50/55/95 stats (base stats sum to 350), which isn't too strong. According to veekun, 115 species of pokemon have are equal or better in every stat. This is a better set than the first one he gave:
Mew @ Lopunnite
Psychic/Fighting
100/160/110/100/100/130
-Fake Out
-Zen Headbutt
-Drain Punch/Superpower
-Sucker Punch
It, like the smeargle, has priority and STABs, but this one has much better stats.
Smeargle Mega Evolving with Dragon Ascent isn't the issue, but I'm not sure if I want to let Smeargle Mega Evolve from two sources simultaneously. That is, for example, use both Pinsirite and Dragon Ascent to get +200 BST and be Normal/Flying with Delta Stream.
I'm pretty sure if a Pokemon already mega-evolved it can't mega-evolve again.
Smeargle with +200 BST isn't very powerful compared to some pokemon that are being used. Also, if Smeargle gets Dragon Ascent upon Mega-Evolving both, then it doesn't get Aerialate and only has a base attack stat of 80. Sure, it would have no weaknesses, but 55/65/75 bulk is pretty bad and 80/60/105 offenses don't hit very hard.
An Arcanine @ Pinsirite would hit harder, have a more useful primary STAB (fire is better than normal to pair with Flying), still a pretty good movepool containing Aerialate Extreme Speed, Flare Blitz, Close Combat, Wild Charge, Crunch, and Morning Sun for recovery, and also have Intimidate to lower the opponent's attack stat one stage, Justified to boost its attack if it comes in on a dark-type move, or have Flash Fire to boost Flare Blitz if it can come in on a fire-type move.
You are assuming that they Mega Evolve in a particular order that is not a given. Regardless, that's still a 450 BST Pokemon (When the highest non-Mega Uber/Primal statline is Arceus' 720) with 3 slots free to be any move it wants except Chatter. Quiver Dance, Shell Smash, whatever. Does Arcanine get Shell Smash to then Aerilate Extreme Speed? No. Or Baton Pass? No. Spore? No.
It's also just a dumb loophole in general.
Is this based on actual testing or are you assuming Showdown works that way? I'm in particular extremely skeptical that both weights being negative would produce correct BP, given that proportions are the basis of the BP determination. I find it far more likely that negative weight would
-Be read as the same amount, but still positive
-Overflow loop (Lower weight, become the heaviest thing ever)
-or be created correctly and then the Pokemon with even more negative weight being the advantaged one for BP determination.
Negative weight is also just nonsense, and it's in particular worth commentary that whether the simulator can handle it is not the highest/sole priority regardless -Pokemon are barred from having more than 255 in a stat because the actual cartridge Pokemon data format is capped at 255 in a stat, not because Showdown is incapable of handling such high values nor out of any idea that it would be "OP".
This was discussed before submission, but technically they aren't Mega Stones, they don't work like Mega Evolution (Would you Primal Revert instantly just like the actual Primals?), and there's also a desire to keep things relatively simple. (I don't think we ever came to a firm decision on whether Dragon Ascent based Mega Evolution would even be implemented, in fact. The nonsense with Smeargle is arguably a good reason to just not implement it)
Negative weight would work correctly as he described; I am 99% certain of this. The reason for this is that a negative weight Pokémon using Heavy Slam on another negative weight Pokémon is entirely possible in-game thanks to the existence of the move Autotomize.
Noivern @ Altarianite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Focus Blast
Use boom burst to deal tons of damage and u-turn to escape looses 4 times ice weaknes
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish/U-turn/stealth rocks
tons of power descent coverage
Clefable @ Sablenite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
- Soft-Boiled
- Dazzling Gleam
And you thought that it was annoying before
Scolipede @ Pinsirite/Altarianite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn/Baton Pass
- Return
- Swords Dance/Iron Defense
- Protect
Basic speed boost abuse
Weavile @ Glalitite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Quick Attack
- Return
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
AAA wevile Very powerful ice stabs utility darkstab realy fast swordsdance has some bite
Porygon-Z @ Altarianite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Agility
- Tri Attack
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
Abuse download to sweep by coming in on something you can be expectied to hit specialy
Terrakion @ Pinsirite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Quick Attack
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
good inital typing abuse quick attack to revenge preferbly come in on a dark type move
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Mewtwonite X
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hammer Arm/Brick Break/Super Power
- Earthquake
- Knock Off/swordsdance/stonedge
- Rock Polish/U-Turn
Abuse intimidate to set up a rock polish
earthquake is your most spam-able stab hitting most every thing neutraly
Hammer arm is a balance between power and keeping you on the field
brick break is more spamable
superpower is good but may force you off the field
Knock Off is for those couple of things that resist both stabs/stone edge hit's flying types harder though
swords dance if for double dance a virtualy instobabl killing machine
rock polish can be good to allow for a sweep-uturn is for momentum
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Focus Blast
Use boom burst to deal tons of damage and u-turn to escape looses 4 times ice weaknes
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish/U-turn/stealth rocks
tons of power descent coverage
Clefable @ Sablenite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
- Soft-Boiled
- Dazzling Gleam
And you thought that it was annoying before
Scolipede @ Pinsirite/Altarianite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn/Baton Pass
- Return
- Swords Dance/Iron Defense
- Protect
Basic speed boost abuse
Weavile @ Glalitite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Quick Attack
- Return
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
AAA wevile Very powerful ice stabs utility darkstab realy fast swordsdance has some bite
Porygon-Z @ Altarianite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Agility
- Tri Attack
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
Abuse download to sweep by coming in on something you can be expectied to hit specialy
Terrakion @ Pinsirite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Quick Attack
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
good inital typing abuse quick attack to revenge preferbly come in on a dark type move
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Mewtwonite X
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hammer Arm/Brick Break/Super Power
- Earthquake
- Knock Off/swordsdance/stonedge
- Rock Polish/U-Turn
Abuse intimidate to set up a rock polish
earthquake is your most spam-able stab hitting most every thing neutraly
Hammer arm is a balance between power and keeping you on the field
brick break is more spamable
superpower is good but may force you off the field
Knock Off is for those couple of things that resist both stabs/stone edge hit's flying types harder though
swords dance if for double dance a virtualy instobabl killing machine
rock polish can be good to allow for a sweep-uturn is for momentum
Because if i use soak on something-then it changes form(mega evolves)it's whole type changes to it's megas typing.
the same argument could be made for Stats depending on exactly how the base stat affecting moves operate after a form change.
Specifically guard split and power split(bulbapedia doesn't say and i don't have time to go looking)
I'm not going to argue further but i think a mega evolution that never actually changes the base ability to should be held to the same standard as stats and typing--only a change when one can occur
Grass Knot and Low Kick are based off what is pretty much a lookup table. If the target's weight is >=10kg, then they have a BP of 20. It should not be any different for a negative or zero weight.
As for Heavy Slam and Heat Crash, they are similar to Grass Knot and Low Kick, but start at 40 and have their cut-offs at 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 the user's weight, so they should work as normal. If a pokemon with -100 kg weight uses Heavy Slam on a pokemon with -24 kg weight, then the target's weight is more than 1/4 the user's, but less than 1/5, so it would have a BP of 100.
Also, nonpositive weight isn't completely impossible in real life. Weight is the strength of gravity on a particular object. If the object is repelled by gravity, then it would have negative weight (such an object is unknown to man as of now, however). Zero weight also describes objects that are unaffected by gravity.
According to veekun and serebii, Autotomize only halves the user's weight, while bulbapedia says that it reduces the user's weight by 220 lbs (100 kg). I'm not sure which one is right, so some testing should be done in-game.
the formula for heavy slam/heat crash is x=userweight/targetweight, if x<or=2 BP=40(and so on until 5 for 120 BP) and negative numbers are lower than 2 so it does work that way.
Edit:
negative weight actually is impossible irl, as, just like the strong force, gravity does not have the potential to repel matter.
Showdown agrees with Bulbapedia on the behaviour of Autotomize. Also, it would seem that Heavy Slam and Heat Crash also would have to use a lookup table, (that is, divide the user's weight by the various amounts and then check which set of values the target's weight falls between) otherwise division by 0 errors could occur if a Pokémon with exactly 100 kg weight used Autotomize and was then hit by Heavy Slam.
Regardless, weight reduction from Mega Stones could simply be capped at some arbitrary number, like 0 kg, and the whole issue would be avoided. The reason to apply this to weight and not to stats is simply that it makes so little difference from a mechanical standpoint.
Ninjask? It's not viable but it still has speed boost.
You're definitely underselling it. 75/200/25/172/170 is a terrifying spread, even with the lack of item. You're so fast that you can run a +Atk -Def nature and punch holes through the enemy team with physical and special moves, like Head Smash, Earth Power and Heat Wave. Magic Bounce means you can never be burned or T-waved, ether. But I don't even think Diancite will be the best choice...Pinsirite and Salamencite both give it Aerilate, allowing it to use the powerful Flying STAB it's always wanted. You can even opt for Altarinite, which gives it the odd typing of Rock/Fairy, but +40 to Attack and a near-perfect coverage spread of Rock/Fairy/Ground. While it wishes it got Dragon Dance or Swords Dance, Agility gives it a great cleaner set and Hone Claws is an option for Head Smash spam, best paired with Roost or (Healing) Wish support. Keep an eye on it, for sure.
At first I also thought Diancite Archeops might be a bit silly, but it's not as strong as it looks on paper
252+ Atk Diancite Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Diancite Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 247-292 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Diancite Archeops Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Archeops Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 237-280 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I'm not even going to calcs against Archeops, because
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Archeops: 206-243 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
...yeah, a resisted attack off of base 73 attack have over a 50% chance to OHKO after rocks. Imagine any attack from our titans.
Pinsirite, however, is scary on it.
252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Archeops Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
That's doing more than the Diancite Stone Edge above (although less than Head Smash and EQ). Fairyhops could work, although getting walled by PDon kind of sucks, especially since it needs the +Speed nature (it doesn't get a speed boost from Altarianite)
252 Atk Altarianite Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Diancite Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Diancite Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 247-292 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Diancite Archeops Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Archeops Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 237-280 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I'm not even going to calcs against Archeops, because
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Archeops: 206-243 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
...yeah, a resisted attack off of base 73 attack have over a 50% chance to OHKO after rocks. Imagine any attack from our titans.
Pinsirite, however, is scary on it.
252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Archeops Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
That's doing more than the Diancite Stone Edge above (although less than Head Smash and EQ). Fairyhops could work, although getting walled by PDon kind of sucks, especially since it needs the +Speed nature (it doesn't get a speed boost from Altarianite)
252 Atk Altarianite Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO
Yeah, I definitely expect it to be a threat. If this meta weren't Ubers-based, Archeops would be banned from Mega Stones before you could blink. That said, a great many other things would have to be banned if it weren't Ubers-based. It's just so easy to combine Pokémon + Mega Stone in a minmaxy fashion. Still, the fact that it is Ubers-based is why I'm willing to give Archeops a chance.
Also, its Rock typing is a bit of a liability, leaving it weak to Steel (Bullet Punch says hi, Dialga's Flash Cannon says hi, Ampharosite Jirachi's Flash Cannon says hi) and Water (Scarf Kyogre says hi). Not a lot can counter it, but it seems to be relatively easy to check.
Pidgeot tries reaaaaally hard to make the no guard hurricane thing fly. Maybe another pokemon can?
Let's see....
Hurricane
Fire Blast
Bug Buzz/ Hidden Power Ground/Giga Drain
Quiver Dance/ Hidden Power Ground/ Bug Buzz
85/60/70/195/115/120
Yeah, that ought'a do it.
Last edited:
Yeah that looks slightly terrifying. Pidgeotite is actually really badass...check out this monster:
Pidgeot tries reaaaaally hard to make the no guard hurricane thing fly. Maybe another pokemon can?
Let's see....
Hurricane
Fire Blast
Bug Buzz/ Hidden Power Ground/Giga Drain
Quiver Dance/ Hidden Power Ground/ Bug Buzz
85/60/70/195/115/120
Yeah, that ought'a do it.
90/90/90/190/100/120
Zap Cannon - 120 bp - 100% paralysis chance
Aside from trading Leftovers for some minor buffs to Defense and Special Defense, Zapdos just got a straight buff to either its defensive or offensive sets. It can invest in a lot of bulk to supplement its great typing, carry Roost and Defog or go for a powerful offensive set that rivals the might of Mega Mewtwo Y. 120 Speed is excellent for a defensive 'mon and okay for an offensive one (in this meta), and 190 Special Attack is just...obscene. Pair that with a completely accurate Zap Cannon (and Heat Wave), and we have a threat on our hands -- even if you live the hit, you're going to be paralyzed. If only it got Hurricane.
Also thank Banette for the terror that is PRANKSTER SPORE (oh god):
60/180/90/70/80/80
(Why does it also have 180 Attack ;_;)
Pidgeot IS a baller. Look at this little thing
100/77/82/188/138/110
Look at that titanic attack! It also has No Guard Sing, Focus Blast, and Thunder. The main thing to focus on is Sing, obviously. No Guard Sing is like the best sleeping move in the game, since it can even bypass subs, only having to worry about Soundproof.
60/65/65/190/85/130
Who needs normal Mega Gengar? This thing has No Guard Hypnosis, Focus Blast, Zap Cannon, and Wisp if that's your thing. Oh, it also has a titanic 190 Special Attack and a really good base 130 speed.
100/77/82/188/138/110
Look at that titanic attack! It also has No Guard Sing, Focus Blast, and Thunder. The main thing to focus on is Sing, obviously. No Guard Sing is like the best sleeping move in the game, since it can even bypass subs, only having to worry about Soundproof.
60/65/65/190/85/130
Who needs normal Mega Gengar? This thing has No Guard Hypnosis, Focus Blast, Zap Cannon, and Wisp if that's your thing. Oh, it also has a titanic 190 Special Attack and a really good base 130 speed.
This pleases me:
+Sablenite
Magic Bounce
67/99/166/99/166/3
Yeah, you read that right. 3 base speed, motherfucker. With great defenses, decent offenses and the incredible Magic Bounce, this thing is the best Trick Room lead in the game, period. Gyro Ball is hitting everything for max damage, and you can reliably set up Rocks/Screens/Trick Room and then outslow the entire game bar Sablenite Carracosta and...Stunfisk. Then use Explosion if you so choose, or switch out and return to Trick Room another day.
+Sablenite
Magic Bounce
67/99/166/99/166/3
Yeah, you read that right. 3 base speed, motherfucker. With great defenses, decent offenses and the incredible Magic Bounce, this thing is the best Trick Room lead in the game, period. Gyro Ball is hitting everything for max damage, and you can reliably set up Rocks/Screens/Trick Room and then outslow the entire game bar Sablenite Carracosta and...Stunfisk. Then use Explosion if you so choose, or switch out and return to Trick Room another day.
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