M&M Mix and Mega Resources

[Highlord]

Golisipod to B+ or lower

1. Revenge killed by Extreme Speed + Aerilate and Pinsirite Zygarde can switch in to any attack.

2. Walled by most Red Orb users including Primal Groudon which means free Stealth Rock or potential Lava Plume burn.

3. Weak to Stealth Rock which is terrible since Primal Groudon switches in for free. Primal Groudon doesn't have a tough time finding an opportunity to setup rocks if Golisipod is the check.

4. Swords Dance sets are bad because it is terribly slow and there are much better options for breaking defensive cores, especially since both forms of Giratina counter it easily. Also Marshadow will steal your boost.

5. A lot of strong electric types that can pivot or OHKO including Zapdos which is very common. Also it is pressured by Xurkitree, Thunderous and Tapu Koko since they tank Aqua Jet and threaten to OHKO.

6. Fairy types including Arceus-Fairy which is very popular, Magearna which can also pivot with Volt Switch, and Xerneas are all common threats that check it.

7. There are better checks to Weavile like Keldeo and Manaphy which are far more threatening, and they threaten Primal Groudon as well.

These replays especially show Golisipod's inability to do anything worthwhile vs a Balanced team:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-600752677 qt

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-611127797 peef

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-611130474 it

I was using Hyper Offense in this game but between Stealth Rock and Primal Groudon... Golisipod stood no chance.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-598959797 m3ggo

 

[fififlutters]

I have a few mons I'd like to nominate, stating my current thoughts on the meta.

Toxapex from Unranked to B/B- (Sablenite, Black Sludge)

Toxapex is an amazing defensive pivot in Mix and Mega, even without a mega stone it does its job exceptionally well, especially with Regenerator making it incredibly tough to take down. This trait that Toxapex has allows it to check Marshadow to a degree, abusing Scald to fish for burns. Due to the lack of trappers in the current meta, Toxapex also finds it very risk free to switch in, making it an incredible team player for stall and semi-stall teams. This isn't to say that it has its problems, however. Toxapex finds itself easily dealt with by the common Groudon-Primal, which is able to invalidate its Scald, with the only way of harming it being to use Toxic to slowly wear it down with the rest of the team. It also finds itself unable to lay Toxic Spikes due to the abundance of Magic Bounce in the tier, further hindering its utility on stall teams. As well as this, Electric-type attackers such as Raikou and Tapu Koko are somewhat common breakers, along with Psychic-types such as Tapu Lele and the somewhat uncommon Lunala easily 2HKOing it. Whilst it can abuse Haze to eliminate setup sweepers as a check to it, if they have already set up on their switchin, Toxapex finds it fairly difficult to deal with them. Toxapex is also very passive, and despite an immunity to Toxic and access to Haze, it can quite easily be broken by special attackers, as well as easily broken by Ground-type STAB. However, with all of this in mind, Toxapex still comes out on top as a very irritating Pokemon overall.

Wall of calcs:
Defensively:
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - here you can fish for Scald burns
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO
(these are all without Sablenite boosts)

E: With the release of Latiasite, this mon's viability has skyrocketed for obvious reasons, and so I believe it should firmly be placed in A-.


Buzzwole from Unranked to B+ (Aggronite)

Buzzwole is an exceptional physical wall - not only that, but it also lacks the passivity of the other defensive Pokemon on this list - with its great 169 base Attack and exceptional 189 base Defense, Buzzwole can comfortably handle the majority of physical attackers in the metagame unboosted. If a Pokemon wants to break through Buzzwole's titanic defenses, they need to hit it with a Fire-type attack. And that is Buzzwole's main weakness. Fire-type attacks are sure to demolish the buff bug's defenses, hitting it for an effective 3x damage modifier, thanks to Filter helping Buzzwole deal with it a little easier. Unfortunately, that's not all that Buzzwole struggles to handle - most special attackers will force it out, even if they do hit it neutrally with their STAB. Whilst it may have a better-than-average 107 base HP, its middling base 73 Special Defense, especially uninvested, leaves it susceptible to the various special attackers in the meta, such as Yveltal, Genesect and Manaphy, two of which resist its main moves (one if Genesect is Glalitite), Lunge and Earthquake. This is what makes it admittedly better than Toxapex on this list - it can hit the typing that gives it trouble unless they have an ability or typing which can mitigate Ground-type moves entirely, making it less of a passive threat. As well as this, after Mega Evolving it is immune to Toxic due to its added Steel typing, making it less prone to being worn down. However, it does fear burns.

Wall of calcs:
Offensively:
8 Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 152-180 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
8 Atk Buzzwole Lunge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 102-121 (28.8 - 34.2%) -- 3.4% chance to 3HKO
8 Atk Buzzwole Lunge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 96-114 (37 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Metagrossite)
Defensively:
252+ Atk Golisopod Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole in Heavy Rain: 130-154 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- 73.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 108-127 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (Lopunnite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Zygarde Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 100-118 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 94.6% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 118-141 (28.2 - 33.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Excadrill Drill Run vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 84-99 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO


Marshadow from A+ to S (Metagrossite, Lucarionite) (Placed preferably above Groudon-Primal)

I cannot stress this enough... Marshadow is an incredibly overcentralizing Pokemon, finding its spot on many teams due to its STAB moves being unresisted, making its remaining two slots free to pick whatever it wants to 'choose' its counters. It almost single-handedly removes the viability of Hyper Offense from the tier, forcing teams to either place rather passive threats to attempt to wall it, or forcing them to build their teams around putting offensive pressure on Marshadow so that it finds it difficult to switch in. Whilst this could be a possibility in theory, Marshadow's decent bulk with a Metagrossite stone (see: outspeeding Kartana is a thing) allows it to switch-in on neutral threats at least once and potentially ruin their sweep by stealing boosts with Spectral Thief or outright knocking them out. And if it comes in unharmed... it becomes stupendously difficult to even slay the thing without -atespeed users to come in on its attacks or sacking something off entirely. Against hyper offense, Marshadow doesn't even need boosts to sweep, it just needs the help of Psychic Terrain to negate opposing -atespeed users. It can even run Ice Punch if Zygarde is a problem, which cleanly OHKOs even if it has mega evolved. Defensively, whilst there are a lot more checks, and a new one in Aggronite Buzzwole, not one set can outright counter Marshadow. Even Arceus-Fairy fails to counter it - its chance to OHKO uninvested Marshadow is very small, making it risky to use against Bulk Up Poison Jab variants, and if it carries Will-o-wisp over Earth Power, it finds itself deadweight vs Pdon, another incredibly strong threat. Even Buzzwole, which is barely 3HKO'd by Close Combat, can lose to Sub Bulk Up sets in a matchup where it switches in, despite access to a deceptively powerful Earthquake and Lunge to remove Marshadow's attack boosts, being used as setup fodder. With its various movepool options and the ability to select its counters, Marshadow has estabilished itself as the top threat in MnM currently.

If you dislike risking your Marshadow to other Marshadow, putting 40 EVs into HP is an option to avoid the OHKO from Arceus-Fairy's Judgment.

Wall of calcs:
252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 118-141 (28.2 - 33.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
8 Atk Buzzwole Lunge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 34-40 (10.5 - 12.4%) -- possible 9HKO
8 Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 114-135 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
8 Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 77-91 (23.9 - 28.3%) -- 95.6% chance to 4HKO
8 Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 57-68 (17.7 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO (Marshadow sets up a Substitute here and avoids Lunge attack decreases) (Possible maximum damage disregarding critical hits if spamming Earthquake: 49.4%)
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 237-279 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 178-210 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marshadow: 278-330 (86.6 - 102.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 40 HP / 4 SpD Marshadow: 278-330 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - You saw it here first, folks!


Highlord has already addressed my concerns involving Golisopod, so I am fine where it is ranked right now. Moving on...

Weavile from A+ to A/A- (Glalitite, Lucarionite)

Despite being one of the best revenge killers in the tier, Weavile finds itself in a difficult spot in terms of viability. With the rise of Arceus-Fairy and Magearna as bulky offense staples, as well as the usage of Togekiss, Weavile has had its niche over other -atespeed users cut by a large margin. Its weakness to Stealth Rocks also makes it have a limited lifespan against However, it has another niche that no other priority revenge killer has - access to Pursuit. This makes Weavile a lot more tricky to play around as it can use Pursuit to eliminate threats on low HP - however, it can also fire back at Weavile, usually relegating this job to be used on Pokemon that are slower than it and have no priority. However, its fantastic 145 speed tier makes it no slouch on the field - forcing common stallbreakers such as Xurkitree into 50/50 scenarios, where one wrong move could KO it entirely. On the other side of the equation, Pursuit isn't as strong as it initially appears, making it difficult to use over other priority moves, giving Weavile somewhat of a 4 moveslot syndrome. With the additions of Aggronite to the meta, and Altarianite unleashing soon, Weavile may find itself in a downward spiral in the metagame...

Wall of calcs:
Pursuits (@ 80 BP):
252 Atk Weavile Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 153-181 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Weavile Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 114-135 (31.8 - 37.7%) -- 90.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 135-160 (47.7 - 56.5%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

I would have also nominated Keldeo back to B+, however, the impending release of Altarianite will do it in, unfortunately.

Other minor nominations:

Aggronite -> B on the Stone rankings.
Add Gyaradosite to Mew
Mimikyu from B+ -> B-
Giratina-O from Unranked -> B-


My next group of nominations will be submitted when Altarianite releases.

 

[IronedSandwich]

Chople Berry for Arceus so it can 1v1 Marshadow (not necessarily all marshadows in all situations, just from neutral ground and a standard set) imo

EDIT: to avoid double posting

Heatran @ Latiasite -> B-:

Upsides:

-Great defensive typing resisting all three available ates as well as normal and fire and providing immunities to ground and toxic.
-Because of this it has the useful ability to sponge explosions
-Magma Storm and Taunt allow it to work well as a trapper. Because Gengar-Mega has no bulk and Dugtrio can only trap until it mega evolves it's got little competition in this regard.
-Good special attack and coverage allow it to be a decent special wallbreaker with Earth Power and Overheat
-can set rocks if your team needs a rock setter

Downsides:

-Dies to Marshadow
-Dies to any offensive water type
-walled by Zapdos and Blissey, although Taunt, Toxic and rocks can annoy non-Sablenite sets
-the opponent can switch out before Magma Storm is used

Notes:

-Gyaradosite could also be an option, allowing you to Toxic sablenite users at the expense of a subjectively worse defensive typing and lower special attack.
-Lava Plume could ostensibly be used to mess with switchins if you don't run Magma Storm
also by what I said earlier I did not mean that Mega Gengar is unviable.

EDIT: Ampharosite is also an option

EDIT 2: run Ampharosite

 

[IronedSandwich]

Diancite -> B

leaves you weak to revenge killing and the ability doesn't synergize well with certain attackers as well as other stones can. Not saying it's bad, but it's not really better than Red Orb for example

Gyaradosite for Toxapex if added: allows you to set up on sablenite users

EDIT: wow, this is a slow thread. Another thing: leave Weavile where it is, it's revenge killing power is insane being able to revenge kill atespeed users

 

[fififlutters]

(posted because Mark K said he'd post his changes later)
devised a preliminary list, feel free to advise my changes as they are very early in
S rank:
Zygarde: (Incredible diversity and ease of sweep with the Altarianite sets)
Groudon-Primal: (Alike to Zygarde, but is more defensive and supportive in its potential roles)
A+ rank:
Blissey: (An amazing glue and switchin to almost every special attacker there is, especially if unboosted. This Pokemon is very irritating to deal with due to its immense special bulk.)
Tapu Lele: (The Diancite stone has made having a Steel-type on the team fairly mandatory. However, piss poor defences and the limited life of terrain make this Pokemon a one-shot chance. Changed rank to A. CM sets can also break through Blissey despite the limited life of psyterrain, and lacking walls as well as a very high speed tier make Lele a potential candidate for A+.)
A rank:
Magearna: (Incredible diversity in its sets and the ability to blanket check the majority of setup in the tier, as well as the majority of special attackers make this mon a fantastic glue and the removal of all Xerneas problems you ever have. Moved to A+, CM Split Cameruptite sets are extremely effective at stalling out opposing defensive cores and acting as a wincon, making Magearna an incredible pick for any team. Moved back to A, community input suggests that Magearna is easy to chip and therefore dispatch on offense, which is a rising trend at the moment.)
Arceus-Ground: (Ditto. You know this Pokemon by now. Best Groudon-Primal check in the game, capable of offensive pressure due to its Ground STAB.)
Zapdos: (Altarianite hit this mon quite hard, but it still checks and supports the team with momentum and anti-hazard support)
Kartana: (Altarianite might have made this mon better but I find it was quite overhyped earlier in the gen. With the decline of Zapdos, it can threaten teams very easily, and can also run a set of lures, such as Glalitite and Pinsirite.)
Arceus-Fairy: (Similar role of checking the majority of Fighting-types in the tier as well as being a very good check for Zygarde.)
Deoxys-Speed: (Sets up Stealth Rock every damn game if a Gyaradosite variant is present, and will often set up Spikes if the opponent doesn’t have a Magearna on their side)
Keldeo: (An incredibly powerful breaker that defeats most Supportceus with just its STAB moves, and another claimer of the title of 2hkoing PDon. Taunt sets can also shut down traditional counters such as Toxapex.)
A- rank:
Xerneas: (It’s fucking Xerneas.)
Manaphy: (Unfortunately, the release of Diancite and Altarianite have made this pixie’s life very difficult, as it finds itself commonly revenge killed by the majority of teams. It also finds fewer setup opportunities, due to the more offensively inclined metagame.)
Raikou: (to summarize, it’s an incredibly strong breaker that only PDon can really resist, and even then, Blissey can lose to Sub + CM. However, it’s fairly slow for the current metagame.)
Buzzwole: (An incredible wall for the majority of -atespeed users, using its fantastic 107/189 defenses as well as an incredible defensive typing. However, it falls quite easily to special attackers and mainly Substitutes, despite being the least passive of walls.)
Toxapex: (Latiasite gave it life, and now it acts as an incredibly good check to the Fighting-types in the tier. Oh, and it counters the two Fire/Fairies as well!)
Entei: (Zygarde can kinda screw this mon over, but Sacred Fire and a very strong 155 Attack Pixilate Extremespeed can be very hard to deal with even at neutral.)
Terrakion: (Teams are much more prepped for this mon, and Zygarde is on every team with the Altarianite stone, really hitting this Pokemon hard. It was incredibly difficult to deal with before, but I think its glory days are over.)
Weavile: (Explained by the community. Weavile is overrated. The meta also hates it at the moment. However, the ease of revenge killing where Tapu Lele does not exist and respectable damage output make Weavile a threat in the current metagame.)
Gengar: A- (after 22nd of September, however it is as it was on the old VR for now, as it'll get access to Zap Cannon to compliment Hex.)
B+ rank:
Arceus-Ghost: (It’s back. A difficult sweeper to break, but with the introduction of Marshadow, its life might get a little harder.)
Skarmory: (Entei isn’t seen much anymore, and most variants are quite easily defeated due to the rise of Electric types and more Red Orb users popping up. However, the mix of hazard and defog support cannot be denied.)
Tapu Koko: (A bit stuck on this one. Open to rising it to A-.)
Mew: (Mew is an all and everything Pokemon, and a rather tough support to break at that. If you want a Fighting resist and have your Arc forme taken, this is most likely your next best bet.)
Genesect: (opportunity cost sucks but +1 Techno Blast hurts like anything, and Explosion is basically a 1-1 trade. New sets in the form of Pidgeotite keep the great typing Genesect has, and also invalidate previous switchins to other sets such as Zapdos.)
Togekiss: (See: Mark K)
Landorus-Therian: (I’ll need more experience with this mon to say more about it, but I do think that this is B+ material.)
Volcarona: (The fall of Pinsirite has made this mon inadvertedly better and a lot tougher to take down after a +1 boost. Bulkarona sets (Cameruptite) have also made a splash, and can hit much harder with their coverage. Fire Blast even 2HKOs offensive variants of Groudon-Primal! Open to moving this within the whole of B.)
Thundurus: (An excellent balance breaker due to its high speed, nuclear base 190 Special Attack, and access to Thunder and Focus Blast allows it to break through most teams without a problem.)
B rank:
Hippowdon: (Immense physical defenses and a resistance to Fire with the Venusaurite stone make Hippowdon a tough cookie to break, allowing it to blanket check the majority of physical attackers, such as Entei, Groudon-Primal, and even Zygarde. However, it suffers from being passive a lot of the time due to induced burns from these checks and needs to stall them out a lot of the time.)
Giratina-O: (A decent defensive typing and an insane stat distribution of 150/100/100, Giratina-O can act as a blanket check for Orb based attackers, and support the team with Defog. However, its limited lifespan makes its job difficult, as it cannot repeatedly check what it needs to.)
Golisopod: (See: Ruins of Alpha/Highlord)
Yveltal: (Altarianite fucked this mon big time.) (not sure where Arcanine lands either. Haven’t seen it on ladder at all, but I’m sure it has a lot of usability.)#
Jirachi: (Good utility in the forms of Wish, Stealth Rock, Healing Wish and U-turn allows Jirachi to fit on balance teams as a status spreader with the Ampharosite stone. It also acts as one of the only switchins to Tapu Lele, making it a prime pick for balance.)
Excadrill: (Ability to defeat common HO leads and also set up Stealth Rocks in the face of Magic Bounce makes this mon a very good anti-meta Pokemon. However, I am yet to experiment with –atespin sets.)
Ho-oh: (Unsure, but I’ve seen Banded Ho-oh put in a lot of work vs other teams.)
Lunala: (Whilst the Scarf variant admittedly sucks, the Specs variant is incredibly tough for offense to wall, 2HKOing the majority of Pokemon other than specially defensive Zapdos, Magearna and Blissey. However, the common usage of these Pokemon and Lunala’s low speed tier doesn’t really put it that high.)
Xurkitree: (Won me the only game of OMPL, so sure, I’ll take this)
Cresselia: (Mark K has the majority of the reasoning for this Pokemon.)
Arceus-Water: (Need a few more reasons for this mon. Can’t quite get them at the moment, but I’m sure it’s still B+ worthy)
Kyogre-Primal: (Extremely good balance breaker. Substitute sets can give teams a nightmare, but Red Orb users really do screw it over.)
B- rank:
Arceus: (EKiller is dead. However, I am sure that it still has a niche in MnM. Open to moving it to C+.)
Rayquaza: (Really unsure about this one. Altarianite nerfs it… maybe???)
Mantine: (Also unsure.)
Metagross: (Fairly good offensive SR lead on HO teams. Doesn’t really do much else other than take lives 1-1 however. Open to moving this mon anywhere B and lower.)
Mimikyu: (Again, I lack reasoning on this Pokemon.)
Shuckle: (Shuckle.)
Venusaur: (see my post on it in my RMT for a more detailed description, both have a very similar role and have very minor differences in their sets, so I'd count them as one Pokemon altogether (as summarised by Mark K, Roserade sukc)
Cobalion: (I need a bit more reasoning for the Diancite set, but it works well as an offensive pivot to say the least.)
C+ rank:
Zygarde-Complete: (this needs to scale similarly to Giratina in my opinion, if this is getting a rank Gira is rising)
C rank:
Garchomp: (Also really unsure about this mon. Does it still have a niche?)
Giratina: (Unsure. However, Zygarde could put this mon out of stall for good.)
Arceus-Steel
Nihilego: (Latiasite gives Nihilego a much needed immunity, but a boosted Zygarde can easily take one down. Unsure about this nomination.)
Marshadow: (Seems like a fairly good breaker with Marshadium Z, but both sets fall flat due to the higher speed tier of the metagame. Changed to C-. Changed again to C.)
C- rank:
Solgaleo: (A Z-splash set on webs is incredibly lethal… if it can set up.)
Kyogre: (Only lethal in the right circumstances, but it can work exceptionally well vs weatherless teams.
D rank:
(nothing here because D rank sukc, unless you want to nom Breloom for this spot)
Unranks: Vaporeon, Salamence, Shedinja, Arceus-Dark (fairy-types really screwed this mon over), Arceus-Rock (no relevant niche in the current metagame)

Do not be surprised when this turns into an even bigger wall of text. I'll be having detailed reasoning for each Pokemon later on tomorrow. Those which have been striked through are unranked.

Update 2: Format change

Update 3: Gengar's preliminary ranking changed to A-, Tapu Lele changed to A+. Magearna moved back down to A.

Update 4: Added Jirachi to B.

This VRs subrankings have been finalized - I may move things around in the subranks, but I do not think I can go into such detail with the nominations. Requesting council to consider this as the current VR.

every time you ignore this post Magearna slowly starts to find itself in S rank by virtue of the VR creators being biased

 

[IronedSandwich]

I disagree with Marshadow and Kyogre being worse than Giratina, Muk and Ditto: Marshadow still has good utility despite low speed (run scarf of sash), meanwhile pdon and other desoland users can be removed. Also, since it doesn't need to set up, just switch in a Zygarde or something.

my nominations including already stated ones, assuming Marshadow is banned (if not ignore Marsh and Arceus-Fairy and instead put Marshadow in S):

Heatran UR -> B- (Ampharosite, Gyaradosite)
Toxapex UR -> B- (Gyaradosite, Ampharosite)
Cresselia A- -> B+ (mostly because power creep)
Marshadow A+ -> B- (Focus Sash, possibly other items but that's my recommendation)
Buzzwole UR -> A- (Aggronite) (I thought this was added ages ago)
Primal Groudon S -> A+ (was only S-worthy because of smaller metagame)
Shedinja C -> UR (it's a meme)
Salamence C -> UR (see Shedinja)
Zygarde-C -> B- (looks much more at home there)
Tapu Lele B -> A (very powerful if a bit of a momentum sap)
leave Weavile in A+
Arceus-Fairy A -> A- (lost niche after marsh ban)
Arceus-Dark B- -> C (is psychic spam that big of a deal? also, loses to altarianite as pointed out above)
Diancite for Xurkitree (speed boost helps)
Charizardite X for Mimikyu (Mimikyu is useful in webs teams but doesn't need the speed there) (or meet me halfway with lucarionite at least)

 

[fififlutters]

I disagree with Marshadow and Kyogre being worse than Giratina, Muk and Ditto: Marshadow still has good utility despite low speed (run scarf of sash), meanwhile pdon and other desoland users can be removed. Also, since it doesn't need to set up, just switch in a Zygarde or something.

my nominations including already stated ones, assuming Marshadow is banned (if not ignore Marsh and Arceus-Fairy and instead put Marshadow in S):

Heatran UR -> B- (Ampharosite, Gyaradosite)
Toxapex UR -> B- (Gyaradosite, Ampharosite)
Cresselia A- -> B+ (mostly because power creep)
Marshadow A+ -> B- (Focus Sash, possibly other items but that's my recommendation)
Buzzwole UR -> A- (Aggronite) (I thought this was added ages ago)
Primal Groudon S -> A+ (was only S-worthy because of smaller metagame)
Shedinja C -> UR (it's a meme)
Salamence C -> UR (see Shedinja)
Zygarde-C -> B- (looks much more at home there)
Tapu Lele B -> A (very powerful if a bit of a momentum sap)
leave Weavile in A+
Arceus-Fairy -> A- (lost niche after marsh ban)
Diancite for Xurkitree (speed boost helps)
Charizardite X for Mimikyu (Mimikyu is useful in webs teams but doesn't need the speed there) (or meet me halfway with lucarionite at least)

Marshadow has been banned. I can admit that I went and ranked it a bit lower than expected.
Buzzwole - I'm actually quite shocked I missed this. Adding to B+.
Marshadow - Focus Sash sets suck, simple as. If the opponent has Stealth Rock up you're probably not going to do anything that match. However, I'll agree that I did put it down a bit too much, but I still don't believe it's any more than C rank.
Zygarde-Complete - I discussed being at C+, but I don't quite have enough evidence to prove that it can be useful on bulkier teams. Ignoring for now.
Weavile - M A G E A R N A. You can't break through shit with it, you have to predict Pursuit trapping if you want to get anywhere with Weavile. Keeping in its place.
Arceus-Fairy - Whilst it might have lost its niche as a check to Marshadow, it checks other lethal Fighting-types... as well as checking the omnipotent Zygarde. Its niche is still very prominent in the metagame. Keeping at A.
Heatran - I have yet to feel anything about. Stallbreaker sets are cool, and Latiasite sets can do quite a bit of utility for the team, but there are other, much better Steel-types for the team, and Gyara sets have yet to be seen putting in work vs bulkier teams. Considering to rank C+, but I'll need more evidence.
Cresselia - I'm on the fence with this one. Exclusivity of the treasured Sablenite stone definitely leaves Cresselia a bit high and dry, and with the addition of Magearna, it kinda falls flat when trying to sweep. However... it is a fairly good wincon, almost necessitating something which can deal with it on a team, such as a Ghost-type attacker, and with the departure of Marshadow as a prominent Pokemon, I do not think Cresselia should drop this time around.
Groudon-Primal - If you said this within the Marshadow meta I would agree with you. However, there are no standout Pokemon in this meta, and therefore, due to the amount of roles Groudon-Primal can fulfill, I would still consider keeping it at S rank.
About Zardite X - Lucarionite and Metagrossite are much better stones because they keep the incredible typing Mimikyu has. Adding Zardite X wouldn't be advised.
Kyogre is a bit of a problematic one. I generally think the lack of an orb makes it very situational, which makes it deserving of a rank, but the user can simply just save their wincon for Kyogre (e.g Red Orb Raikou) and leave it at that. It's very easy to manipulate, and I think it deserves a C- rank for that.

Good discussion, otherwise. Keep it up.

 

[Mark K]

Changes in Bold

(posted because Mark K said he'd post his changes later)
devised a preliminary list, feel free to advise my changes as they are very early in
Zygarde: S (Incredible diversity and ease of sweep with the Altarianite sets)
Groudon-Primal: S (Alike to Zygarde, but is more defensive and supportive in its potential roles) (find A+ mons when?)

Zapdos: A (Altarianite hit this mon quite hard, but it still checks and supports the team with momentum and anti-hazard support)
Kartana: A (Not as metabreaking as it used to be, Aggronite makes almost anything wall Kartana, still one of the best physical attackers in the meta though. Whenever Chloe decides to free blazikenite, it'll probably rise up to A+, or maybe even S)
Magearna: A+ (Incredible diversity in its sets and the ability to blanket check the majority of setup in the tier, as well as the majority of special attackers make this mon a fantastic glue and the removal of all Xerneas problems you ever have. Moved to A+, CM Split Cameruptite sets are extremely effective at stalling out opposing defensive cores and acting as a wincon, making Magearna an incredible pick for any team.)
Arceus-Fairy: A (See below, these two are as good as supportceus get)
Arceus-Ground: A (Standard Supportceus, it's good and reliable, fits everywhere, great mon)
Deoxys-Speed: A (Sets up Stealth Rock every damn game if a Gyaradosite variant is present, and will often set up Spikes if the opponent doesn’t have a Magearna on their side)
Gengar: A (after 22nd of September, however it is as it was on the old VR for now, as it'll get access to Zap Cannon to compliment Hex.)
Keldeo: A (An incredibly powerful breaker that defeats most Supportceus with just its STAB moves, and another claimer of the title of 2hkoing PDon. Taunt sets can also shut down traditional counters such as Toxapex.)
Blissey: A+ (As good as it gets sp.def wise, this thing tanks hits from anything, can cripple several mons, set up rocks, heal allies and status or just straight out stall them)
Tapu Lele: A (The Diancite stone has made having a Steel-type on the team fairly mandatory. However, piss poor defences and the limited life of terrain make this Pokemon a one-shot chance. Changed rank to A...)
Cresselia: B (Very limited recovery and a not so great typing make Cress weaker than other more reliable and useful walls like Zapdos, Supportceus or Blissey, still a good setup sweeper and can still take hits)
Xerneas: A- (It’s fucking Xerneas.)
Manaphy: A- (Unfortunately, the release of Diancite and Altarianite have made this pixie’s life very difficult, as it finds itself commonly revenge killed by the majority of teams. It also finds fewer setup opportunities, due to the more offensively inclined metagame.)
Raikou: A- (A- fits it perfectly, it destroys anything that's slower than it with the right set, or it can be pivoted out of a bad matchup, speed sucks though)
Toxapex: A- (Latiasite gave it life, and now it acts as an incredibly good check to the Fighting-types in the tier. Oh, and it counters the two Fire/Fairies as well!)
Entei: A- (Zygarde can kinda screw this mon over, but Sacred Fire and a very strong 155 Attack Pixilate Extremespeed can be very hard to deal with even at neutral.)
Arceus-Ghost: B+ (I've rarely seen it get any use but seems easily walled by Blissey or Aggronite Buzzwole or any WoW user not named Giratina)
Weavile: A- (I don't think this is as overrated as people make it seem, Weavile is still a very powerful late game sweeper, it can setup, pursuit trap, or just use faster priority to take down opposing wincons like nothing else does, it's a must on HO teams and also has some versatility because aside from glalitite, it can also utilize stones such as Pinsirite or Altarianite)
Arceus-Water: B- (Great defensive typing, but easily overshadowed by the other Supportceus, Will-O-Wisp variant might have some use though)
Buzzwole: A- (With Aggronite this thing becomes able to wall anything that tries to use physical damage, like really, aside from Entei, no physical attacker is breaking through this thing (Unless you use Coil Zygarde, but you shouldn't use Coil Zygarde so whatever))
Mimikyu: B- (Meh, not as good as other pokemon in B+, very rare sight in respectable player's teams)
Skarmory: B+ (Entei isn’t seen much anymore, and most variants are quite easily defeated due to the rise of Electric types and more Red Orb users popping up. However, the mix of hazard and defog support cannot be denied.)
Tapu Koko: B+ (A bit stuck on this one. Open to rising it to A-.)
Togekiss: B+ (See: Mark K)
Terrakion: A- (While teams are more ready to take on this thing, when used carefully it can still break teams apart with the right set, though it can no longer just threaten a whole team when it's on the field)
Landorus-Therian: B+ (I’ll need more experience with this mon to say more about it, but I do think that this is B+ material.)
Golisopod: B (See: Ruins of Alpha/Highlord)
(not sure where Zygarde-Complete lands)
Genesect: B (opportunity cost sucks but +1 Techno Blast hurts like anything, and Explosion is basically a 1-1 trade. Open to moving this Pokemon to B+.)
Yveltal: B (Altarianite fucked this mon big time.) (not sure where Arcanine lands either. Haven’t seen it on ladder at all, but I’m sure it has a lot of usability.)
Excadrill: B (Ability to defeat common HO leads and also set up Stealth Rocks in the face of Magic Bounce makes this mon a very good anti-meta Pokemon. However, I am yet to experiment with –atespin sets.)
Ho-oh: B (Unsure, but I’ve seen Banded Ho-oh put in a lot of work vs other teams.)
Lunala: B (Whilst the Scarf variant admittedly sucks, the Specs variant is incredibly tough for offense to wall, 2HKOing the majority of Pokemon other than specially defensive Zapdos, Magearna and Blissey. However, the common usage of these Pokemon and Lunala’s low speed tier doesn’t really put it that high.)
Volcarona: B (The fall of Pinsirite has made this mon inadvertedly better and a lot tougher to take down after a +1 boost. Bulkarona sets (Cameruptite) have also made a splash, and can hit much harder with their coverage. Open to moving this within the whole of B.)
Xurkitree: B (Won me the only game of OMPL, so sure, I’ll take this)
Arceus: B- (EKiller is dead. However, I am sure that it still has a niche in MnM. Open to moving it to C+.)
Rayquaza: B-? (Really unsure about this one. Altarianite nerfs it… maybe???)
Mantine: B- (Also unsure.)
Metagross: B- (Fairly good offensive SR lead on HO teams. Doesn’t really do much else other than take lives 1-1 however. Open to moving this mon anywhere B and lower.)
Mew: B+ (This is a blank canvas, you do whatever you want with it and it fits just about any support need your team might have, it's overshadowed by some other mons who can fulfill some stuff Mew can, but this thing can pack it all in just one set)
Shuckle: B- (Shuckle.)
Thundurus: B+ (I had the chance to play around it in the suspect ladder, and it's honestly a great stallbreaker, similar to Raikou, it destroys anything slower)
Kyogre-Primal: B (B- is too harsh for Pogre, this thing can tank a few hits and pack a very hard hitting punch, can also setup sweep with CM + Sub or CM + Rest)
Venusaur: B- (Has some use, can be a nightmare to unprepared teams, can even break through Blissey if played right. Roserade is shit though, C at max)
Garchomp: C+? (Also really unsure about this mon. Does it still have a niche?
Giratina: B+ (Great wall, great utility, walls a lot of shit now that Marshadow is gone, could even rise up if players realize just how strong this thing is)
Muk-A: Unrank? (as for now, keep it at C, I need more evidence)
Arceus-Steel: C
Arceus-Rock: Unranked (Pinsirite is way less now, there are much better Arceus forms)
Cobalion: B- (It works really well pivoting with the Diancite set, quite underwhelming when it comes to raw power though)
Nihilego: C (Latiasite gives Nihilego a much needed immunity, but a boosted Zygarde can easily take one down. Unsure about this nomination.
Solgaleo: C- (A Z-splash set on webs is incredibly lethal… if it can set up.)
Kyogre: C- (Only lethal in the right circumstances, but it can work exceptionally well vs weatherless teams.
Marshadow: C (Seems like a fairly good breaker with Marshadium Z, but both sets fall flat due to the higher speed tier of the metagame. Changed to C-. Changed again to C.)
Unranks: Vaporeon, Shedinja, Arceus-Dark (fairy-types really screwed this mon over)
Salamence: C (It's honestly as good as the other B- threats, it can be very threatening with Dragon Dance but sadly loses to anything using pixiespeed)

Overall, it is very clear that the meta is no longer centralizing around Marshadow and its counters, giving space to creative minds and a spot for some unseen mons to see some light.

E: typos

E: made some changes after discussing with Chazm on discord

 

[fififlutters]

Changes in Bold



Overall, it is very clear that the meta is no longer centralizing around Marshadow and its counters, giving space to creative minds and a spot for some unseen mons to see some light.

E: typos

I agree with the majority of these nominations, bar Giratina, Arceus-Water and Buzzwole. I find A- for Giratina to be way too high because of the momentum it saps when switching in, and A for Buzzwole to be too high due to notable weaknesses to Fire which can bypass the amazing type it gets, as well as special attackers piercing through its armor. However, I think more discussion on both Arceus-Water and Buzzwole should suffice, as I am open to changing them. Waterceus I think I need a bit more discussion on, despite the bad opportunity cost, as it can use its handy typing more offensively than other Arceus formes, acting as a counter to Arceus-Ground support formes. Although, I will admit, a lot of attackers it's supposed to resist do hit it in a hard spot.

Two new Pokemon I forgot to nominate: Giratina-O and Hippowdon to B. Giratina-O is a great offensive supporter, with its amazing 150/100/100 bulk and decent typing, it can act against PDon and other orb based attackers. Oh yeah, and it's one of the only few walls to Keldeo. Hippowdon got nominated for much the same reason - its Venusaurite set allows it to take on every single Red Orb user barring Venusaur and Roserade, and its immense physical bulk allows it to be a blanket check to the majority of physical attackers in the tier, such as Entei, Groudon-Primal, and even Zygarde at times. I'm open to nominating it much higher - I think Hippo has a lot of potential, and I want to see that in games.

More discussion needed: Salamence (the reason I unranked it is because Pixispeed is on almost every team at this point, or at least something that revenge kills it), Garchomp (still need to confirm a place on this), Buzzwole and Giratina

 

[IronedSandwich]

what's the Diancite Cobalion set?

 

[M'joe'ra]

what's the Diancite Cobalion set?

Cobalion @ Diancite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock

It is lacking in strength compared to some of the other big threats in the tier but it can revenge or force a switch vs a lot of them such as tapu lele, terrakion, kartana etc while also giving you the chance to gain momentum with volt switch. It also forces out blissey and can bounce back an attempted toxic and put the pressure on and force heal bell pp use which could be huge depending on the matchup. Diancite Cobalion isn't a top tier threat, but it is very good at its job.

 

[Mark K]

Cobalion @ Diancite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock

It is lacking in strength compared to some of the other big threats in the tier but it can revenge or force a switch vs a lot of them such as tapu lele, terrakion, kartana etc while also giving you the chance to gain momentum with volt switch. It also forces out blissey and can bounce back an attempted toxic and put the pressure on and force heal bell pp use which could be huge depending on the matchup. Diancite Cobalion isn't a top tier threat, but it is very good at its job.

Swords Dance is usually used over Stealth Rocks to make up for the lack of damage as you mentioned. If it gets to setup, using its speed it can be a very threatening late game sweeper.

 

[IronedSandwich]

did I miss something? why has Zygarde dropped? what happened?

edit: do we agree Shedinja deserves unranking then?

 

[Fardin]

did I miss something? why has Zygarde dropped? what happened?

edit: do we agree Shedinja deserves unranking then?

shed can still be bery useful, it should at least be C- or D

 

[Chloe]

The council has completed a major overhaul of the Viability Ranking to be more accurate with the current metagame. There's still a few contestable issues with some ranks and some preferred Mega Stones, but this should definitely reflect the metagame a lot better than it did before.

Thank you all for your input and feedback!

 

[thepokemonmasterrrr]

Cresseila and Mimikyu in B-? This has to be a joke. After the marshadow ban bulky setup has gotten way better. Cresseila sets up on so much and is so hard to stop, it deserves to be way higher than stuff like kyorge and excadrill. Cresseila B- -> B+.
Mimikyu is great on offensive teams. It gets a free sd before mega evolving and now there are even less mons to outspeed and threaten it. It stops a sweep and then threatens to destroy your opponent in return. Mimikyu B- -> B
Entei A- -> B+. This thing faces a lot of competition from Zygarde and in no way deserves to be higher than genesect, which gets shift gear and download pre-mega. Sacred Fire is nice, but relying on howl as a setup move is a huge deterrent.
Suicune UR -> C+ Aggronite Suicune is really good, water/steel is a nice typing renderring suicune immune to toxic, while filter makes it really hard to break. Rest CM is solid, and deserves a mention in the viability rankings.

 

[Fardin]

Why is gira only C when it walls every support arc Except fairy, gene, Pdon, Raikou, goli, Terrak, blissey, Kartana, zapdos, every koko set except altariate, keldeo, some entei set and etc.
I know it's lack of reliable recovery hurts it's viability, but with such an amazing bulk and typing, rest is good enough. Rest also eliminates status, which just helps it shit on bulky walls even more with pressure.
It's better than it's shit clone, so at least B would be nice for now

Cresseila and Mimikyu in B-? This has to be a joke. After the marshadow ban bulky setup has gotten way better. Cresseila sets up on so much and is so hard to stop, it deserves to be way higher than stuff like kyorge and excadrill. Cresseila B- -> B+.
Mimikyu is great on offensive teams. It gets a free sd before mega evolving and now there are even less mons to outspeed and threaten it. It stops a sweep and then threatens to destroy your opponent in return. Mimikyu B- -> B
Entei A- -> B+. This thing faces a lot of competition from Zygarde and in no way deserves to be higher than genesect, which gets shift gear and download pre-mega. Sacred Fire is nice, but relying on howl as a setup move is a huge deterrent.
Suicune UR -> C+ Aggronite Suicune is really good, water/steel is a nice typing renderring suicune immune to toxic, while filter makes it really hard to break. Rest CM is solid, and deserves a mention in the viability rankings.

Agree with this a lot

 

[SaturnZelda]

Why is gira only C when it walls every support arc Except fairy, gene, Pdon, Raikou, goli, Terrak, blissey, Kartana, zapdos, every koko set except altariate, keldeo, some entei set and etc.
I know it's lack of reliable recovery hurts it's viability, but with such an amazing bulk and typing, rest is good enough. Rest also eliminates status, which just helps it shit on bulky walls even more with pressure.
It's better than it's shit clone, so at least B would be nice for now

Agree with this a lot

Also, you didn’t mention that Giratina’s main threat that caused it to be less good has now been recently banned from holding Stones. This makes it a lot better than it was during the Marshadow meta. I support Giratina for B

 

[IronedSandwich]

Entei A- -> B+. This thing faces a lot of competition from Zygarde and in no way deserves to be higher than genesect, which gets shift gear and download pre-mega. Sacred Fire is nice, but relying on howl as a setup move is a huge deterrent.

I disagree with this. Entei has much better bulk and a better defensive typing, making it harder to revenge kill (especially by Weavile, the usual bane of -atespeeders' existences) and easier to set up with. Shift Gear Genesect is a bad set because Genesect gets 0 opportunities to set up and it's better run as a mixed attacker anyway. Also, using Howl isn't as much as a deterrent as you might think because most of your attacks will either be Extreme Speed or on slow walls.

Why is gira only C when it walls every support arc Except fairy, gene, Pdon, Raikou, goli, Terrak, blissey, Kartana, zapdos, every koko set except altariate, keldeo, some entei set and etc.

GIRATINA WALLS BLISSEY AND ORB USERS A++++++++++ NOW

it's better than it's shit clone

it's shit clone can actually work on balance teams sometimes

 

[Fardin]

GIRATINA WALLS BLISSEY AND ORB USERS A++++++++++ NOW



it's shit clone can actually work on balance teams sometimes

by walling blissey, i meant that it doesnt get shit on by it, unlike other walls, and both forms can work on balance. blissey and other support arc forms can work on balance even tho they arent offensive mons. apply the same logic to gira.. know ur stuff before trying to make some shitty comments

 

[QT]

Cresseila and Mimikyu in B-? This has to be a joke. After the marshadow ban bulky setup has gotten way better. Cresseila sets up on so much and is so hard to stop, it deserves to be way higher than stuff like kyorge and excadrill. Cresseila B- -> B+.
Mimikyu is great on offensive teams. It gets a free sd before mega evolving and now there are even less mons to outspeed and threaten it. It stops a sweep and then threatens to destroy your opponent in return. Mimikyu B- -> B
Entei A- -> B+. This thing faces a lot of competition from Zygarde and in no way deserves to be higher than genesect, which gets shift gear and download pre-mega. Sacred Fire is nice, but relying on howl as a setup move is a huge deterrent.
Suicune UR -> C+ Aggronite Suicune is really good, water/steel is a nice typing renderring suicune immune to toxic, while filter makes it really hard to break. Rest CM is solid, and deserves a mention in the viability rankings.

While cresselia does benefit from the removal of marshadow, additional major threats have surfaced to take its place as cresselia headaches. Magearna is better than ever, and There's been an increase in other setup sweepers that give Cresselia troubles. Between the buffs to Volcarona, Xurkitree, Gengar, Lunala and Thundurus, the number of of viable offensive pokemon that give Cresselia trouble has greatly increased. It also faces stone competition on defensive teams, as runnign sablenite means that you can't have it in blissey or magearna. It's also exceedingly passive for a setup sweeper, as it needs to be at +5 to even 2hko offensive Primal Groudon, so many of these pokemon are actually able to switch in on Cresselia. If this wasn't bad enough, it doesn't function as a wincon against stall thanks to being walled by Blissey and Magearna, and its lack of recovery PP greatly hurts its longevity. In most matches, all cresselia will be doing is functioning as a damage sponge, which can be useful but isn't enough to make more relevant than Thundurus or Ho-Oh.

Entei is significantly more viable than genesect is, as while both are physical -atespeed users entei's typing allows it to take on Zygarde while still functioning adequately as a revenge killer on its own merits. Sacred Fire, Like scald, is excelletn for wearing down pokemon like support arceus that want ot repeatedly switch in. Genesect's main niches are (potential) single use higher direct power and an increase of coverage options, but these are more than made up for by its lack of a useful secondary stab and awful postmega typing. If Techno Blast behaved like it did in Gen 6, genesect would still be effective, but that is simply not the case.

Suicune is beaten by every A+ and S ranked Pokemon, in addition to being hardwalled by Primal groudon. It can also be readily forced out by numerous lower Pokemon, and its inability to break blissey, when combined with its low speed stat and exploitable defensive typing, means it doesn't function as a win condition versus any playstyle without significant team support. Suicune hasn't been used on a succesful team since nearly the beginning of the metagame.

Why is gira only C when it walls every support arc Except fairy, gene, Pdon, Raikou, goli, Terrak, blissey, Kartana, zapdos, every koko set except altariate, keldeo, some entei set and etc.
I know it's lack of reliable recovery hurts it's viability, but with such an amazing bulk and typing, rest is good enough. Rest also eliminates status, which just helps it shit on bulky walls even more with pressure.
It's better than it's shit clone, so at least B would be nice for now

Agree with this a lot

Giratina does not beat Tapu Koko; even leaving aside Electric Terrain blocking Rest, Tapu Koko needs Dazzling Gleam in order to take on Zygarde and thus carries that to 2hko. Giratina will also lose to either Terrakion or Keldeo; if it's dragon tail, sub Terrakion wisn, while taunt keldeo turns roar into setup bait. I'm also not usper certain why you mention Zapdos and Blissey, since they aren't really offensive Pokemon that you need to wall but I suppose that too. FTR though this isn't actually me being against a raise, just want to clarify a few things.

I disagree with this. Entei has much better bulk and a better defensive typing, making it harder to revenge kill (especially by Weavile, the usual bane of -atespeeders' existences) and easier to set up with. Shift Gear Genesect is a bad set because Genesect gets 0 opportunities to set up and it's better run as a mixed attacker anyway. Also, using Howl isn't as much as a deterrent as you might think because most of your attacks will either be Extreme Speed or on slow walls.



GIRATINA WALLS BLISSEY AND ORB USERS A++++++++++ NOW



it's shit clone can actually work on balance teams sometimes

Mixed Genesect is actually bad. Since techno Blast is unnafected by -ate, it's foced to rely on on its other movepool, which is either weak (Ice beam, flamethrower) or terribly typed (bug buzz). Genesect should generally be running Uturn, Extreme Speed, Explosion, and a coverage option such as flamethrower, although it's not entirely limited to this and 8can* use stuff like shift gear to remove Tapu lele and similar.

 

[fififlutters]

The VR from this point is fairly good (although that's because IT11 supposedly based his votes on my preliminary VR), but there are a few nitpicks I'd like to make.

Section 1: Explaining New Nominations

Personally, there are a few nominations that I can meet half-way on, but I see a lack of reasoning for moving them up from where they previously were. Here's a list of what Pokemon I think might have been misadjusted:

Arceus-Ground: from A to A+

This was something I found initially confusing to begin with. Yes, I understand that it counters the majority of PDon variants, and also happens to be a great check to Red Orb users (despite being unable to switchin). Its support movepool definitely says something about it... but I never saw it any further than A. So why has it moved up? What new utilities has it gained that makes it better than it was post-Marshadow metagame? Is it due to a lack of Pokemon in A+?

Xerneas: from A- to A

I also want to know what changed in the new meta that let this rise. I didn't really find much evidence to suggest that it was worth moving up to A, as Marshadow, whilst threatening it, needed to be played well in order to defeat it. However, the rise of Magearna to A+ should tell that Xerneas is not as potent as people may think it is, due to the majority of Magearnas packing the movepool to counter Xerneas, due to how much of a threat it is in teambuilding. However, this does not exempt it from its previous ranking.

I'll meet midway with Cresselia - but I don't know why it was put down so much. I get Magearna is common and that competely counters non Red Orb variants (which are bad, by the way), but based on how you raised Xerneas, surely Cresselia didn't deserve too harsh of a drop? I'll request to move it to B if community input suggests so.
Why Vaporeon was still kept I don't know. I think I need a bit more reasoning before I can believe that it has a niche in the current metagame.

Section 2: New Viability Rankings Nominations

Keldeo: from B to B+

Keldeo is making a splash in the tier at the moment as being one of the best Fighting-type wallbreakers in the metagame, holding feats that no other Fighting-type can do. The first adjustment is that Keldeo can 2HKO all Arceus formes if not specially invested. This makes it a considerable threat to balance, especially when it beats the most common Sablenite user (whilst not OHKOing it, it threatens and forces it out.) Taunt sets can shut down walls after the Sablenite stone has been revealed - for example, Toxapex is able to fully counter Keldeo if it doesn't carry Taunt or it isn't Sablenite - however, Latiasite sets cannot deal with it. Calm Mind Keldeo sets can also pull through with a bit more power if Secret Sword is not desired - however, this loses the immediate 2HKO on Blissey, allowing it to potentially get off enough damage with Seismic Toss or stall out poison with Toxic + Softboiled. It's very frightening to try to switch into, and that's what makes Keldeo worthy of the same B+ ranking that Raikou holds.

(lol jk wall of calcs coming later)
(also why tf does secret sword have to be the less memorable name I keep getting the two mixed up J:)

Jirachi: from Unranked to B-

Jirachi is the other option for a versatile Steel-type over Magearna, and whilst it might not be able to deal with Tapu Lele and Deo-S as well, it is able to pull out many more utility options that Magearna cannot, such as set Stealth Rocks in the face of Magic Bounce and spread status. It also has access to Healing Wish, allowing it to fit on more offensive playstyles. It also gets access to U-Turn, which is advantageous for momentum, and not blockable by the various Ground-types in the tier. It can also run Wish for itself and obtain reliable recovery, but it finds it very difficult to fit both Wish and Protect into the same moveset, and it allows what it needs to check to set up on it.
Section 3: Potential Nominations

Here are some nominations I might consider. I think I'll need more evidence for these as I go along, but here is what I believe could change:

Mandibuzz: B to B-
I personally don't understand why Mandibuzz is B anyway. It happens to lose quite easily to offensive pressure - more importantly, it loses to the most common Stealth Rock user, Groudon-Primal, which can burn it with Lava Plume and make its Foul Plays lack damage. Furthermore, the influx of Fairies into the tier has made it alike to Yveltal - its effectiveness is severely decreased due to -atespeed and physical threats it could originally check before.

(My next discussions will probably be about Gengar and Hippowdon.)

Section 4: Agreements/Disagreements

Giratina: C to B: I think this is a bit overblown, but I can see this happening. It's a great wall, and it's able to take a large amount of hits, but I see it being way to passive to even compare with some of the better walls you could use. It's often setup bait for some of the most threatening mons in the tier, however, this is mainly limited to special attackers, something that Blissey can take on if it's in a core. I personally think B- is a bit better for this due to its more specialized role, but its similarities with Giratina-O cannot be ignored, and so I think it is worthy of being risen.

I have neutral feelings about Mimikyu. Never seen Diancite because it's too weak for my teams, but I could see it possibly rising. However, I don't think it is worthy of rising, despite having lacking evidence that your nomination could be more effective.

Entei: A- to B+: I could see this happening, but alike to Mimikyu, I'm not convinced. However, looking at calculations versus common glues like Supportceus do indicate that Entei isn't too strong of a Pokemon at the moment. Split on this one.

Suicune, however, I need a lot more evidence for using. Why you wouldn't use it over Kyogre-Primal confuses me - despite the lower defense, Kyogre-Primal is a far better bulky Water-type that seriously threatens bulkier teams, and is, to be quite honest, rather underrated in the metagame at the moment. Kyogre-Primal personally deserves to go to B, but I think there are better and more important nominations that I think need to happen first.

However, I might be misrepresenting its role. Please do tell me its niche if I have been, I honestly don't know what I'm expecting from it.

Section 5: Stone Misplacements

There are some stones which I feel have been omitted or placed badly on this VR. Here's what I'd do to change it:

Toxapex greatly prefers Latiasite over Sablenite - this was partly the reason it rose to the point where it was today as it can stall out Groudon-Primal with Recover + Haze if it needs to. (Proposed change: Latiasite, Sablenite, Gyaradosite)

Volcarona is missing a mention on Cameruptite, its primary stone. This isn't to mean that Red Orb is bad - both fit on teams just as well, but Cameruptite, in my opinion, makes Volcarona a terrifying threat for just about any team with its boosted Fire Blasts and Psychic to hit Toxapex. (Proposed change: Cameruptite, Red Orb)

Hippowdon is missing the mention of Venusaurite, which makes it a utiliarian check to some of the most threatening wallbreakers in the tier, such as Raikou. (Proposed change: Sablenite, Venusaurite)

Gyarados can also use Salamencite over Pinsirite if it desires to abuse its access to Intimidate over a bit more power. (Proposed change: Pinsirite, Salamencite, Altarianite)

Section 6: Recent Discoveries

A recent discovery has shown that Genesect should never have been able to use -ate boosted Techno Blasts in the first place. This, of course, is detrimental to its overall viability, and may be pushed down an entire rank in the future. Its main niche as an -atespeeder has gone, because it was never meant to be there in the first place.

 

[IronedSandwich]

Techno Blast doesn't get -ate boosts? strange.

alright, that was bad faith so I'll lay out the reasons I actually think Giratina belongs in C/C+:

• it can't work on offense teams because much like Chansey in OU it's incredibly difficult to switch out of, since it can't provide any offensive pressure or momentum. Giratina-O is much better here because as offensive utility it can be one of the best non-passive defoggers available - it can dragon tail to annoy switchins (which unlike Roar or Giratina's Dragon Tail does some damage), shadow sneak to clean, or use shadow force to damage things.
• it can't work on balance teams because, in addition to the reason above, it's also quite frail for Mix and Mega. Despite its good defensive stats, it can't use one side to wall attackers in the way Hippowdon or Blissey can, and its defensive typing doesn't let it muscle past much. This is made even worse because 2HKOing is worrying for Giratina, having no reliable recovery (Tapu Koko 2HKOs). Giratina-O can be used sometimes, because it runs a completely different set where it can use its movepool and stats/griseous orb to threaten some stuff.
• it can work a little bit on stall teams because there are few good defoggers for it and because Heal Bell + Rest gives you some form of recovery, but it still has issues to deal with, especially the now very popular Altarianite users. It also suffers from the same problem as support Arceus and most other stall defoggers such as supportceus, which is that it's a bit of a loose end - because it's not as good at walling things ad infinitum it can be randomly killed more easily, leaving you with a 5-mon stall and a hazard weakness again

I also don't think "knowing ur stuff" and thinking being mutually stalled out is good are mutually required for each other, especially since Blissey wins if it comes down to PP stalling.

 

[Fardin]

Techno Blast doesn't get -ate boosts? strange.

alright, that was bad faith so I'll lay out the reasons I actually think Giratina belongs in C/C+:

• it can't work on offense teams because much like Chansey in OU it's incredibly difficult to switch out of, since it can't provide any offensive pressure or momentum. Giratina-O is much better here because as offensive utility it can be one of the best non-passive defoggers available - it can dragon tail to annoy switchins (which unlike Roar or Giratina's Dragon Tail does some damage), shadow sneak to clean, or use shadow force to damage things.
• it can't work on balance teams because, in addition to the reason above, it's also quite frail for Mix and Mega. Despite its good defensive stats, it can't use one side to wall attackers in the way Hippowdon or Blissey can, and its defensive typing doesn't let it muscle past much. This is made even worse because 2HKOing is worrying for Giratina, having no reliable recovery (Tapu Koko 2HKOs). Giratina-O can be used sometimes, because it runs a completely different set where it can use its movepool and stats/griseous orb to threaten some stuff.
• it can work a little bit on stall teams because there are few good defoggers for it and because Heal Bell + Rest gives you some form of recovery, but it still has issues to deal with, especially the now very popular Altarianite users. It also suffers from the same problem as support Arceus and most other stall defoggers such as supportceus, which is that it's a bit of a loose end - because it's not as good at walling things ad infinitum it can be randomly killed more easily, leaving you with a 5-mon stall and a hazard weakness again

I also don't think "knowing ur stuff" and thinking being mutually stalled out is good are mutually required for each other, especially since Blissey wins if it comes down to PP stalling.

it cant work on offensive teams cause its a wall lol. thats not a reason for it to not be B. gira-o is better for offensive teams ofc, while the other one is good for bulkier stuff
for ur second point, idk if u tryna troll or just dont really know how bulky gira is. Gira is one of the best mixed def pokemon in the game. in ur examples, u mentioned Hippo, so let me show u its stats with sab stone: 108/168/122. here is gira's: 150/120/120. Gira got the better special bulk, and its defensive isnt that much lower since it got a huge hp. it can also carry lefty, which is a huge +. yh its recovery is kinda lame, but it tanks physical hits for days, and can threaten MANY mons out with wisp, and therefore getting another turn for lefty to recover some health. since gira is so damn bulky, it would be a waste to have any offensive moves on it. Defog, status and phaze is jsut way too important and useful.
every mon has its weakness. just cause altarianite is a thing now, it doesnt mean its not a great wall.
i agree with the last part tho. but the stuff gira is supposed to come in on doesnt do that much of a damage like terrak, raikou, keldeo, goli, kartana, (pdon at times) and thats where lefty comes in. u have no idea how many times lefty alone gained my gira back up close to full health(i know i already mentioned this, but its an amazing item for a poke that got a base 150 hp).
btw there are many more good defogers out there, not just gira and arc
and no, blissey does not win a pp stall battle lol
anyone who played vs a nice defensive core with gira would agree on at least a B. idk why its all the way down at C lol

 

[IronedSandwich]

I'm not trolling, I started with offense to make a point that it doesn't fit there either