M&M Mix and Mega Resources

Chloe

is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Moderator
Loppunite replaces Arena Trap with Scrappy, so you can only really trap before you mega.
Thank you captain obvious.

The idea is that you trap something and on the turn you mega be able to KO it. Running the mega stone allows it to gain enough power to defeat some extra threats on that turn. Basically, just read Multi's post.

Otherwise, you can just not mega it and have the stone as an option. It's not really worse than running another item the majority of the time.
 

Mageic Master

Banned deucer.
OK, I've been testing a lopunnite dugtrio set on the ladder recently, and i can truthfully say that it DEFINITELY deserves B- or even B. Spamming sub then reversal allows you to kill basically anything that doesn't resist it, even a Primal Groudon. It works well as a blissey check, using sub to avoid all status moves, as well as many others. Personally, I think that STAB reversal is devastating and 'duggy' deserves B rank. Just so you know, I think I'm pretty good at recognizing the rank needed, but terrible at nominations, just so you won't come back to point out flaws in my logic.
 
so i got bored and updated the Role Compendium
Hazards and Hazard Support
Stealth Rock
8693C842-9EA1-494A-98DF-AC1E8080740E.png
20DD8294-7EF5-4EBA-996C-F07F92E7CF86.png
06B4859D-6C61-4DD3-B922-AEBF9A0CF783.png
7A12C5C7-7C63-482F-A7B2-182CADFF7902.png
C0231048-0691-432F-A92E-DB20AC2E97F0.png
12D78CFD-F6B6-4C83-B8F6-BCC6520753E3.png
48C9F6F3-3BED-4C10-88B8-E91C2BFB3887.png
7334D642-5EA9-46D2-8C09-4C7BC2569E0A.png
45B4A3D5-19AA-4C6B-99FD-71834F57F65E.png
82B36B76-6EC2-43D8-9B91-794872E3F77F.png
951FCD1B-453D-490C-84B0-3B18E97E5DC2.png
DD13B6CC-FF84-4A35-9780-384BB481C48A.png
6C9FC2AF-EEAC-47AB-BDAB-7CB6924BCAE3.png
933CDC7D-6759-45B4-B26A-45A6F4168FD0.png
C99A8482-1015-4D64-B19B-A2F68A5B5244.png
C40245E2-C50A-426D-A3D3-6BC01B4E4BA9.png
D9B82477-9117-4262-93FA-2C28BE56F6BC.png

Spikes
45B4A3D5-19AA-4C6B-99FD-71834F57F65E.png
D9B82477-9117-4262-93FA-2C28BE56F6BC.png

Toxic Spikes
1BE3E6F2-8265-4554-B772-35B5725641EE.png

Defog
06B4859D-6C61-4DD3-B922-AEBF9A0CF783.png
7A12C5C7-7C63-482F-A7B2-182CADFF7902.png
CEFD4A69-8CC8-49CD-A27E-570F24A80E97.png
45B4A3D5-19AA-4C6B-99FD-71834F57F65E.png
9F8FE7E1-7356-4B58-871E-450A3445C8C7.png
DBA4693C-5B1E-480C-AC25-23AE5838417B.png
B38670FF-DBBC-4177-A384-9232D5F7E1BB.png
3055F011-237D-4731-844D-8F45CBA3B49D.png
88F55075-F9E6-483F-B2A1-F7D6A0A540EF.png
B2001177-70B9-4A06-BE1C-16CABB8C05C2.png
384AEE3E-E791-4E8B-A6B5-9E15FF17DEDA.png
C87EAB0A-4F94-4515-A9A1-C8320D94194C.png
726CC447-B0B4-461A-A99F-B6A11716BFEE.png
FAEA2E22-9D6A-4544-A310-2D45693F1966.png
99200C5E-CD49-449C-B979-47F68B72C66A.png

Rapid Spin
DD13B6CC-FF84-4A35-9780-384BB481C48A.png


Important Roles
Priority
5EAEAC15-42AA-468E-822D-7F22428A04E6.png
EDEAA3E4-ECF6-4039-89FD-6985B574ACE7.png
73FF0B81-1DF2-48FB-9894-8524AF0F5ACC.png
48C9F6F3-3BED-4C10-88B8-E91C2BFB3887.png
951FCD1B-453D-490C-84B0-3B18E97E5DC2.png
F2F93340-F7B0-4ABE-A503-23372ABF97DF.png
C9318890-EB56-4AEA-A2F3-10FD0DD50A24.png
7F7603EE-DD6B-49C4-8336-B3971F2000ED.png
8128539D-8428-4207-AD9D-65EBF7AD1449.png
C40245E2-C50A-426D-A3D3-6BC01B4E4BA9.png
CA38A305-B12A-4AF6-94AC-34F1E9D864F2.png

Wish Support
20DD8294-7EF5-4EBA-996C-F07F92E7CF86.png

Aromatherapy / Heal Bell
20DD8294-7EF5-4EBA-996C-F07F92E7CF86.png
06B4859D-6C61-4DD3-B922-AEBF9A0CF783.png
C23D43FB-0F5D-4575-AFAE-6E357406EC8D.png
C99A8482-1015-4D64-B19B-A2F68A5B5244.png

Healing Wish
45C0F542-38F2-4ACE-8DAF-B86099837853.png
99200C5E-CD49-449C-B979-47F68B72C66A.png

Volt Switch/U-turn
C23D43FB-0F5D-4575-AFAE-6E357406EC8D.png
06B4859D-6C61-4DD3-B922-AEBF9A0CF783.png
7A12C5C7-7C63-482F-A7B2-182CADFF7902.png
C0231048-0691-432F-A92E-DB20AC2E97F0.png
9F8FE7E1-7356-4B58-871E-450A3445C8C7.png
951FCD1B-453D-490C-84B0-3B18E97E5DC2.png
C52034D4-6F6F-4BB8-9AE0-156463984F44.png
C9318890-EB56-4AEA-A2F3-10FD0DD50A24.png
6C9FC2AF-EEAC-47AB-BDAB-7CB6924BCAE3.png
B7890A69-8E51-4409-B5CC-16D3B26BE905.png
C99A8482-1015-4D64-B19B-A2F68A5B5244.png

Z-Moves
4BC56A7A-8281-4AAA-BF34-B95655A3DFBD.png
12D78CFD-F6B6-4C83-B8F6-BCC6520753E3.png
1BF26BD4-3951-4589-91D4-E626B07CA58A.png
C9787781-1321-48CC-B3E9-0925B85B0612.png
D512BA6A-E94E-4951-8F4E-CBA1C2C978BF.png


Setup Moves
Calm Mind
C23D43FB-0F5D-4575-AFAE-6E357406EC8D.png
20DD8294-7EF5-4EBA-996C-F07F92E7CF86.png
06B4859D-6C61-4DD3-B922-AEBF9A0CF783.png
88F55075-F9E6-483F-B2A1-F7D6A0A540EF.png
4BC56A7A-8281-4AAA-BF34-B95655A3DFBD.png
32E551EC-E5F2-4002-BD3D-7BF9290DC500.png
20BDD41C-8257-4355-B51B-1B34F1DF20F3.png
384AEE3E-E791-4E8B-A6B5-9E15FF17DEDA.png
BFCBFBAC-B6B0-4E6F-8C47-4DCF95786CFA.png
C52034D4-6F6F-4BB8-9AE0-156463984F44.png
B8017869-4947-4C65-B5C4-09BC1D2D8D72.png
3055F011-237D-4731-844D-8F45CBA3B49D.png

Swords Dance
8693C842-9EA1-494A-98DF-AC1E8080740E.png
AD21CBCC-B3B0-495A-B600-DF216240B402.png
08C25B9C-2F2F-45BB-84BF-143719B343AF.png
73FF0B81-1DF2-48FB-9894-8524AF0F5ACC.png
C0231048-0691-432F-A92E-DB20AC2E97F0.png
12D78CFD-F6B6-4C83-B8F6-BCC6520753E3.png
1BF26BD4-3951-4589-91D4-E626B07CA58A.png
951FCD1B-453D-490C-84B0-3B18E97E5DC2.png
F2F93340-F7B0-4ABE-A503-23372ABF97DF.png
DD13B6CC-FF84-4A35-9780-384BB481C48A.png
7F7603EE-DD6B-49C4-8336-B3971F2000ED.png
8128539D-8428-4207-AD9D-65EBF7AD1449.png

Shift Gear
C23D43FB-0F5D-4575-AFAE-6E357406EC8D.png
C9318890-EB56-4AEA-A2F3-10FD0DD50A24.png
8F5038CD-D30B-4E1D-96E2-75C597DBAA6F.png

Dragon Dance
5EAEAC15-42AA-468E-822D-7F22428A04E6.png
D512BA6A-E94E-4951-8F4E-CBA1C2C978BF.png

Tail Glow
22871209-F8A2-4BD0-931A-601A1724E0C5.png

Rock Polish / Autotomize / Agility
8693C842-9EA1-494A-98DF-AC1E8080740E.png
12D78CFD-F6B6-4C83-B8F6-BCC6520753E3.png
48C9F6F3-3BED-4C10-88B8-E91C2BFB3887.png
C0231048-0691-432F-A92E-DB20AC2E97F0.png

Nasty Plot
06B4859D-6C61-4DD3-B922-AEBF9A0CF783.png
82B36B76-6EC2-43D8-9B91-794872E3F77F.png
103A2C6B-E96C-49A7-B1A9-56F9005F2A5A.png

Coil
5EAEAC15-42AA-468E-822D-7F22428A04E6.png
D512BA6A-E94E-4951-8F4E-CBA1C2C978BF.png

Curse
CEFD4A69-8CC8-49CD-A27E-570F24A80E97.png

Bulk Up
1F0A593D-71BA-4FF0-AA10-5C7C6159A88D.png

Hone Claws
48C9F6F3-3BED-4C10-88B8-E91C2BFB3887.png

Geomancy
C9787781-1321-48CC-B3E9-0925B85B0612.png

Quiver Dance
0C55B4E8-A4CC-4BB4-A3A0-C6D1462CCF80.png


Checks to Metagame Threats
Primal Groudon Checks
Defensive:
06B4859D-6C61-4DD3-B922-AEBF9A0CF783.png
7A12C5C7-7C63-482F-A7B2-182CADFF7902.png
45B4A3D5-19AA-4C6B-99FD-71834F57F65E.png
9F8FE7E1-7356-4B58-871E-450A3445C8C7.png
384AEE3E-E791-4E8B-A6B5-9E15FF17DEDA.png
D512BA6A-E94E-4951-8F4E-CBA1C2C978BF.png
C87EAB0A-4F94-4515-A9A1-C8320D94194C.png
726CC447-B0B4-461A-A99F-B6A11716BFEE.png
B8017869-4947-4C65-B5C4-09BC1D2D8D72.png
B38670FF-DBBC-4177-A384-9232D5F7E1BB.png
3055F011-237D-4731-844D-8F45CBA3B49D.png
C99A8482-1015-4D64-B19B-A2F68A5B5244.png
1F0A593D-71BA-4FF0-AA10-5C7C6159A88D.png
D96A074A-D8D0-4A89-ACB4-765576093E65.png
20DD8294-7EF5-4EBA-996C-F07F92E7CF86.png

Offensive
5EAEAC15-42AA-468E-822D-7F22428A04E6.png
C0231048-0691-432F-A92E-DB20AC2E97F0.png
4BC56A7A-8281-4AAA-BF34-B95655A3DFBD.png
7F7603EE-DD6B-49C4-8336-B3971F2000ED.png
DBA4693C-5B1E-480C-AC25-23AE5838417B.png
73FF0B81-1DF2-48FB-9894-8524AF0F5ACC.png

Magearna Checks
Defensive:
8693C842-9EA1-494A-98DF-AC1E8080740E.png
C23D43FB-0F5D-4575-AFAE-6E357406EC8D.png
CEFD4A69-8CC8-49CD-A27E-570F24A80E97.png

Offensive:
8693C842-9EA1-494A-98DF-AC1E8080740E.png
5EAEAC15-42AA-468E-822D-7F22428A04E6.png
EDEAA3E4-ECF6-4039-89FD-6985B574ACE7.png
021413CE-4951-41DD-BDCF-F8068338DF66.png
CEFD4A69-8CC8-49CD-A27E-570F24A80E97.png
12D78CFD-F6B6-4C83-B8F6-BCC6520753E3.png
0C55B4E8-A4CC-4BB4-A3A0-C6D1462CCF80.png
384AEE3E-E791-4E8B-A6B5-9E15FF17DEDA.png
82B36B76-6EC2-43D8-9B91-794872E3F77F.png
C52034D4-6F6F-4BB8-9AE0-156463984F44.png
C40245E2-C50A-426D-A3D3-6BC01B4E4BA9.png

Terrakion Checks
Defensive:
06B4859D-6C61-4DD3-B922-AEBF9A0CF783.png
88F55075-F9E6-483F-B2A1-F7D6A0A540EF.png
B2001177-70B9-4A06-BE1C-16CABB8C05C2.png
B38670FF-DBBC-4177-A384-9232D5F7E1BB.png
1F0A593D-71BA-4FF0-AA10-5C7C6159A88D.png
D96A074A-D8D0-4A89-ACB4-765576093E65.png

Offensive:
5EAEAC15-42AA-468E-822D-7F22428A04E6.png
EDEAA3E4-ECF6-4039-89FD-6985B574ACE7.png
73FF0B81-1DF2-48FB-9894-8524AF0F5ACC.png
4BC56A7A-8281-4AAA-BF34-B95655A3DFBD.png
45C0F542-38F2-4ACE-8DAF-B86099837853.png
C0231048-0691-432F-A92E-DB20AC2E97F0.png
695FAB82-6111-4931-BED8-F6F188729C85.png

Kartana Checks
Defensive:
C23D43FB-0F5D-4575-AFAE-6E357406EC8D.png
1F0A593D-71BA-4FF0-AA10-5C7C6159A88D.png
B2001177-70B9-4A06-BE1C-16CABB8C05C2.png
CEFD4A69-8CC8-49CD-A27E-570F24A80E97.png
9F8FE7E1-7356-4B58-871E-450A3445C8C7.png
B8017869-4947-4C65-B5C4-09BC1D2D8D72.png
B38670FF-DBBC-4177-A384-9232D5F7E1BB.png
3055F011-237D-4731-844D-8F45CBA3B49D.png

Offensive:
8693C842-9EA1-494A-98DF-AC1E8080740E.png
EDEAA3E4-ECF6-4039-89FD-6985B574ACE7.png
021413CE-4951-41DD-BDCF-F8068338DF66.png
45C0F542-38F2-4ACE-8DAF-B86099837853.png
20BDD41C-8257-4355-B51B-1B34F1DF20F3.png
0C55B4E8-A4CC-4BB4-A3A0-C6D1462CCF80.png

-Ate Checks
8693C842-9EA1-494A-98DF-AC1E8080740E.png
C23D43FB-0F5D-4575-AFAE-6E357406EC8D.png
1F0A593D-71BA-4FF0-AA10-5C7C6159A88D.png
06B4859D-6C61-4DD3-B922-AEBF9A0CF783.png
08C25B9C-2F2F-45BB-84BF-143719B343AF.png
88F55075-F9E6-483F-B2A1-F7D6A0A540EF.png
B2001177-70B9-4A06-BE1C-16CABB8C05C2.png
12D78CFD-F6B6-4C83-B8F6-BCC6520753E3.png
45B4A3D5-19AA-4C6B-99FD-71834F57F65E.png
20BDD41C-8257-4355-B51B-1B34F1DF20F3.png
384AEE3E-E791-4E8B-A6B5-9E15FF17DEDA.png
726CC447-B0B4-461A-A99F-B6A11716BFEE.png
FAEA2E22-9D6A-4544-A310-2D45693F1966.png
D96A074A-D8D0-4A89-ACB4-765576093E65.png

Red Orb checks
8693C842-9EA1-494A-98DF-AC1E8080740E.png
C23D43FB-0F5D-4575-AFAE-6E357406EC8D.png
CEFD4A69-8CC8-49CD-A27E-570F24A80E97.png
7A12C5C7-7C63-482F-A7B2-182CADFF7902.png
45B4A3D5-19AA-4C6B-99FD-71834F57F65E.png
73FF0B81-1DF2-48FB-9894-8524AF0F5ACC.png
9F5A432A-8885-4835-BEBD-66E3008C2DB9.png
1BE3E6F2-8265-4554-B772-35B5725641EE.png
9F8FE7E1-7356-4B58-871E-450A3445C8C7.png
D512BA6A-E94E-4951-8F4E-CBA1C2C978BF.png
D96A074A-D8D0-4A89-ACB4-765576093E65.png
D9B82477-9117-4262-93FA-2C28BE56F6BC.png
DBA4693C-5B1E-480C-AC25-23AE5838417B.png
C87EAB0A-4F94-4515-A9A1-C8320D94194C.png
FAEA2E22-9D6A-4544-A310-2D45693F1966.png
C99A8482-1015-4D64-B19B-A2F68A5B5244.png
B38670FF-DBBC-4177-A384-9232D5F7E1BB.png
3055F011-237D-4731-844D-8F45CBA3B49D.png
7F7603EE-DD6B-49C4-8336-B3971F2000ED.png
 
Last edited:
Let's do an other list of possible viab rank changes

Pokemons

Primal-Groudon: S -> A+
I mean, if anybody that is not named QT knows why he's in S rank, please explain to me.
With the popularity of Lucarionite Zygarde and Salamence, without counting all its checks and counters such as Venusaurite Gliscor/Mandibuzz/Hippowdon, Sablenite Mew, Lucarionite Terrakion, Arceus-Ground, Blue Orb Golisopod, Ho-Oh...
Its inability to run defensive SR sets because of Blissey and the fact that any entry hazard remover can counter it, and its inability to run SR + SD sets because of 4th moveslot syndrom, its only niche is a solid mixed wallbreaker with Overheat/Precipice Blades/Smack Down/SD which is difficult to wall but he really don't deserve S rank.

Magearna: A+ -> S
just read my post on Magearna

Toxapex: A- -> A
his Gyaradosite set is all you wish for a balanced team. He pairs really well with top tiers mons such as Lucarionite Zygarde or Lucarionite Terrakion with its ability to keep its normal form if desired to more reliably check Entei or Magearna courtesy of Regenerator and Water-type and ability to set up TSpikes through Magic Bouncers after mega-evolving and the added Dark-type instead of Water-type letting him counter Lunala, Mew and Blissey, annoying mons when playing balance, is really appreciated and it deserves more usage and higher rank in my opinion, tho the
4th moveslot syndrom is a little bit problematic with him and hampers him (Tspikes/Recover/Payback/[Toxic/Haze])
(he also counters every form of defensive arceus except groundceus)


Stones

Pidgeotite: where the fck is pidgeotite? it's not even in restricted stones, it's just nowhere.

Cameruptite: C -> B/A
Sheer Force is such an awesome ability for some Pokémon and it's clearly better than Slowbronite or Absolite.

Ampharosite B <-> Gyaradosite C
ampharosite goes to C and gyaradosite goes to B for dummies
Dark is a better defensive typing than Dragon, especially when considering the possible weakness/resistance synergy with some types (think Poison/Dark). Gyaradosite gives more bulk too and doesn't cost speed (well, the speed is pretty useless but still) and special attack (same when considering ampharosite/gyaradosite users are defensive pokémons).
 

Chazm

yeet
is a Pre-Contributor
Cameruptite: C -> B/A
Sheer Force is such an awesome ability for some Pokémon and it's clearly better than Slowbronite or Absolite.

Ampharosite B <-> Gyaradosite C
ampharosite goes to C and gyaradosite goes to B for dummies
Dark is a better defensive typing than Dragon, especially when considering the possible weakness/resistance synergy with some types (think Poison/Dark). Gyaradosite gives more bulk too and doesn't cost speed (well, the speed is pretty useless but still) and special attack (same when considering ampharosite/gyaradosite users are defensive pokémons).
Regardling the stones - my problem for deleting it, like I deleted Yveltal. Yveltal should be B rank

Magearna: A+ -> S
just read my post on Magearna

Toxapex: A- -> A
his Gyaradosite set is all you wish for a balanced team. He pairs really well with top tiers mons such as Lucarionite Zygarde or Lucarionite Terrakion with its ability to keep its normal form if desired to more reliably check Entei or Magearna courtesy of Regenerator and Water-type and ability to set up TSpikes through Magic Bouncers after mega-evolving and the added Dark-type instead of Water-type letting him counter Lunala, Mew and Blissey, annoying mons when playing balance, is really appreciated and it deserves more usage and higher rank in my opinion, tho the
4th moveslot syndrom is a little bit problematic with him and hampers him (Tspikes/Recover/Payback/[Toxic/Haze])
(he also counters every form of defensive arceus except groundceus)
Before we go anywhere with this, I agree with both nominations, maybe if only slightly towards Toxapex due to its lack of defensive utility (most of the defensive utility comes from TSpikes), but there are a few things you missed out in both posts, as you just stated what they did, nor what their metagame presence is like.

First off: Magearna. Magearna is a particularly keen candidate for S simply because it can pick and choose its sets of checks and counters extremely well just through stone choice alone. Cameruptite is already incredibly hard to deal with for any offensive team and can often times just set up on the various checks that it has. Usually, if an offensive team lets it in once it will claim a mon quite happily, and there are bunch of teams which will allow Magearna free switches, even from some previously top tier Pokemon like Kartana and Altarianite Zygarde, which will usually dent it when boosted but need to get to +4 and +2 respectively to actually be able to muscle through. Outright checks to Magearna run very thin with just one set, making it outright beastly if played properly, and particularly if well supported by Stealth Rock, as can be done so by Groudon-Primal, Ho-oh ends up becoming neutered as an answer, effectively making Magearna counterless even with one set.

Not only this, but a significant rise in Groudon-Primal usage has not only been from the realization that I'm going to type out below in the analysis of this nomination, but from the rise of the miscellaneous Fleurbolt CM sets that have been popping up that are able to reliably cut out Ho-oh from the checks list. Particularly, max defense Venusaurite is a murderer if the opponents team does not have a Groudon-Primal in any way, and this can be supported from the likes of Toxic Spikes. It's an outright monster if you can't get the set prediction correct, and trying to handle all sets at once is a complete nightmare for anything that isn't all out offensive, being able to afford a ground that can just pivot into it. If Venusaurite Magearna isn't needed, then it can outright eat a hit from Groudon-Primal and lower the power of Eruption, forcing a 50/50 on some hyper offensive teams. It is one of the most defining Pokemon in the metagame, and I feel as if its impact on teambuilding nears that of Groudon-Primal and may exceed it in some cases, due to the sheer lack of defensive checks it has.

Toxapex, I feel, is pretty nice in the metagame due to the lack of Poison-types outright in the metagame - the only relevant one is Toxapex itself, which makes TSpikes incredibly effective in the current metagame, especially with a lack of proper removers. The specific trends Toxapex happens to like is the increase in usage of Lunala, which is otherwise fairly difficult to answer, especially with a Toxapex on its own side. It is a double-edged sword to a bunch of setup and that's why I feel like it teeters over the line. OMPL should give us time to decide, imo - I expect Toxapex to get some much deserved love this round.

Primal-Groudon: S -> A+
I mean, if anybody that is not named QT knows why he's in S rank, please explain to me.
With the popularity of Lucarionite Zygarde and Salamence, without counting all its checks and counters such as Venusaurite Gliscor/Mandibuzz/Hippowdon, Sablenite Mew, Lucarionite Terrakion, Arceus-Ground, Blue Orb Golisopod, Ho-Oh...
Its inability to run defensive SR sets because of Blissey and the fact that any entry hazard remover can counter it, and its inability to run SR + SD sets because of 4th moveslot syndrom, its only niche is a solid mixed wallbreaker with Overheat/Precipice Blades/Smack Down/SD which is difficult to wall but he really don't deserve S rank.
Here's the big bad of the nominations. You're totally incorrect here - Groudon-Primal has a huge set compendium, and trying to cover all of them is as hard as trying to cover all the Magearna sets, because one will most likely be able to break your team. First off, if you discount the fact that Blissey isn't in a good spot in the metagame at the moment, you should notice that Groudon-Primal can run its defensive set much more efficiently (Overheat / Toxic / Precipice / SR). Under common circumstances as the only Stealth Rock setter in the game, there are a bunch of mons that can bounce back hazards and outright counter it, however, it is very easy to Toxic the setters that do not, and therefore very few defoggers end up being able to beat defensive Primal Groudon. This is part of a reasoning why Ho-oh has seen a rise in usage, particularly for its Defog set, which is able to take on a bunch of relevant SR users and take offensive Magearna on in the process.

However, I still agree that defensive is not its primary set. Swords Dance + SR is actually very difficult to find a strong defogger for, although I will admit, running Smack Down on such a set is not only suboptimal but removes a good bit of why it's difficult to remove hazards from that set without something like an Arceus-Ground. In which case, due to the increase of SD sets, Arceus-Ground has been seeing increased usage, albeit not for its support sets but for Calm Mind. The main problem with this is that SD SR gets SR up, however, you have SD rest covered quite well. And this, imo, is what makes Groudon-Primal so successful - the fact that it can successfully set SR on most of its checks and counters without extreme amounts of preparation that would usually make your team weak to a common partner, i.e Lunala, for example, really appreciates the SR support that SD SR can give. It's this sort of offensive support that sets provide that are akin to how Magearna is so effective in the current metagame - where it can just pick and choose its counters, and let the rest of the team deal with the rest.

Groudon-Primal can be particularly problematic for offensive teams as the 50/50 between if something is SD and Overheat is something that needs to be watched out for. Under these circumstances, this is particularly why mixed Swords Dance is such a hard set to deal with, particularly under Webs, where very few Pokemon can ever hope to outspeed it. Unfortunately, it also has problems finding the Rock move it wants to use, and therefore is, yet again, screwed by the 50/50 since it otherwise is quite easily checked by Landorus-Therian, a common lead on Hyper Offense. When you have all of this combined, however, you realize a lot of time, playing against Groudon-Primal is a 50/50 madness vs good players.

Here are some nominations of my own.
Arceus-Ground: B -> B+

Arceus-Ground recently dropped two subranks, and I gotta say - this was because I completely overlooked how good CM Arc-Ground was in the current metagame. It has very few common answers on teams, particularly in relation to its high bulk making certain Flying-types unable to 2HKO right off the bat. It is also able to check important threats like Zygarde and Magearna quite well, however both have sets (Altarianite, (Pinsirite, Cam w/ Ice Beam) that can bust through. It particularly wanes as a Magearna check when Toxic Spikes are put into play, as it will start to enter a 2HKO range from Fleur -> Fleur (or Flash -> Flash if Cameruptite). Thunder is also a very good option for luring the likes of Steel/Flying types, and more importantly, Ho-oh as a strong check to the Ice Beam set. It is also brilliant for luring Golisopod, Arc-Ground's otherwise best check.
Alomomola (Manectite, Sablenite): UR -> C
 
B428AD40-AAB1-4529-BEC5-92EA8023FB2F.gif
UR -> B-
Mega Kangaskhan has stayed under the radar for a long time now, but with recent meta changes, it has become a lot stronger.

Toxapex @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Haze / Payback

Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 180 HP / 96 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Crunch
- Fake Out
- Wish


what this core does is enable mkang to 2hko nearly every pokemon in the tier after they are poisoned bar Blissey(which is pp stalled out of heal bells easily and can’t ko Kanga without Toxic) Arceus-Flying (which is forced to recover constantly so if it’s toxiced it can’t refresh and dies) and Arceus-Ghost (which is a free switchin for Toxapex). Toxic Spikes allows Kangaskhan to become one of the best balance breakers in the tier.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-757124169 this against chazm replay highlights kangaskhans ability to break even high HP mons after a layer of tspikes is up

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-757115663 while stresh uses a somewhat unorthodox offense in this battle kangaskhan still is able to pressure even offensive mons
 
View attachment 119890UR -> B-
Mega Kangaskhan has stayed under the radar for a long time now, but with recent meta changes, it has become a lot stronger.

Toxapex @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Haze / Payback

Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 180 HP / 96 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Crunch
- Fake Out
- Wish


what this core does is enable mkang to 2hko nearly every pokemon in the tier after they are poisoned bar Blissey(which is pp stalled out of heal bells easily and can’t ko Kanga without Toxic) Arceus-Flying (which is forced to recover constantly so if it’s toxiced it can’t refresh and dies) and Arceus-Ghost (which is a free switchin for Toxapex). Toxic Spikes allows Kangaskhan to become one of the best balance breakers in the tier.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-757124169 this against chazm replay highlights kangaskhans ability to break even high HP mons after a layer of tspikes is up

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-757115663 while stresh uses a somewhat unorthodox offense in this battle kangaskhan still is able to pressure even offensive mons
yea ma boi kangaskhan

Totally agree with that, it reminds me my old balance mkang team that worked really well. He can destroy balance cores effectively with some entry hazards
 

Chazm

yeet
is a Pre-Contributor
More nominations to make pre-OMPL. Going to start with a controversial one:

Zygarde: S -> A+

When it comes to looking at Zygarde over the past few years, it has certainly been strong, but is definitely at its worst point yet. New counters such as the likes of Ice Beam Manectite Mew and Aggronite Buzzwole make Zygarde a lot less threatening simply because one of them outright dodges Toxic Spikes and the other makes Dragon Tail progressively weaker, eventually leading Zygarde into a situation where another mon may beat it. The biggest problem with Lucarionite Zygarde right now is its tendency to force -atespeed to come in after phazing one of its many checks, which is a huge problem for it, as it will end up being picked off regardless of how many boosts it has under its belt. Even versus offense, this is a very difficult job to do, as checks such as Landorus-Therian, Calm Mind Arceus-Ground / Arceus-Fairy, Lunala, Altarianite Zygarde itself... heck, even Altarianite, the most different variant, has Kartana to use it as setup fodder, Magearna as a good revenge killer (which can also force out once), Ho-oh deals significant damage with Brave Bird,

You see the point. Checks are abundant to almost every variant and there are some universal counters, like the ones seen above. Toxic Spikes particularly might support Zygarde well in taking out other checks but it will barely ever pass by Buzzwole unless it's caught non-mega, can be traded via Synchronize on Mew, all of these little things that make Zygarde less effective in practice. If they have another Toxic Spikes absorber, often times Zygarde won't ever be able to abuse Toxic Spikes without having that dealt with itself, and therefore, the likes of Ice Beam Arceus can answer very well. It is quite difficult for it to nab a KO as it can't warp its matchups very well and therefore struggles heavily with its counters, unlike PDon and Magearna, which are incredible at doing these roles.

Support options are also fairly limited, with few mons luring in switchins for Zygarde. Very few mons are safe setup fodder for it - the likes of Gliscor and Toxapex are the relevant few which I could see being problematic, and both have ways of working around it, as Gliscor can nab momentum and Toxapex can just set Toxic Spikes / toxic Zygarde, which makes it much harder for it to setup. This usually means it comes in dented for the roles it needs to compress - making it ineffective vs the majority of checks. As a result, it just isn't strong enough to be S, imo.

Magearna: A+ -> S, +Venusaurite
Utmost the most defining balance threat of all; just hanging on Cameruptite. Cameruptite is already a huge pain for teams to deal with, as the likes of Groudon-Primal, a generally safe check otherwise, is outright 2HKO'd by OTR + CM, and 3HKO'd by CM Split, some of the most annoying sets to deal with. It particularly works well by outright abusing the free switches it gets from the likes of Kartana and Tapu Lele, usually great offensive cleaners, so well that their usage dwindles simply because offensive teams can't afford the momentum sap that Cameruptite checks force onto a team, making it already one of the best wallbreakers in the metagame due to the difficulty of checking the two sets.

New sets such as the likes of Max Def Venusaurite CM Split have pushed the matchups of Magearna to such measures that Groudon-Primal is near enough mandatory to deal with all of these variants. Finding another ground that can reliably KO it is a nightmare as it uses almost all of its traditional checks as setup fodder and can abuse hazards like Toxic Spikes to a better level than Zygarde, as there are no Pokemon that beat it that can defog or absorb Toxic Spikes that are particularly common. More niche options such as Amoonguss are emerging to beat the likes of Terrakion and these variants of Magearna, particularly OTR + CM, as it can potentially sleep a wincon through this method.

This brings me onto my next point - that being that all switchins, bar Groudon-Primal and possibly Ho-oh, are used as setup fodder by a bunch of pairings. Magearna can bring in Fires for the likes of CM Groundceus, Sableplot Mew, etc. and then in turn, those Pokemon bring in setup fodder for Magearna, such as Flying-type attackers. Under SR, every single one of these is defeated by Cameruptite Thunderbolt - as a result, Magearna shows itself as one of the best Flying resists of the metagame and a superb partner for anything Flying weak.

It is also very difficult to predict Magearna, as sets like Pinsirite are suitable role compressors and offensive wincons to use the likes of certain Grounds as setup fodder and are pretty deadly once they have reached +1. After Stealth Rock, all of the Fires that could usually check Magearna, bar Fire move variants of PDon are OHKO'd, not to mention that SubSplit can also stall out Overheats or let poison from the likes of Toxic Spikes wear down a PDon.

And to top it all off... Magearna's effect at warping the metagame is considerably greater than even the likes of Groudon-Primal. Pokemon such as -ate Zygarde are forced to run Thousand Arrows for it, Darkrai is harmed considerably just by it existing, Hoopa-U has much less viability, and the presence of Darks is near enough removed entirely, the only few that hold on are the likes of Heat Wave Yveltal, because practically every other one is setup fodder. Not to mention that even with Heat Wave, Yveltal is setup fodder for the likes of Venusaurite. Its impact on the metagame is greater than every mon before it, and for all of these reasons combined, I nominate it to take Zygarde's S spot.

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: A- -> B+

NDM has some huge problems in the current metagame. For example, it is hardwalled by similar threats noted in the Zygarde nomination, and is plagued by the huge presence of fires. It often can't get up both RP and SD vs the likes of Hyper Offense due to a bunch of checks like Landorus-Therian and Kartana, and as an SR user it is plagued by the likes of Skarmory, which can just outright nullify its work. With the likes of Arceus-Ground rising, it has even fewer teams that it can do more than trade against, and the trend of 252 Spe and Defensive PDon work heavily against it. The worst thing about it, IMO, is the competition it has with Magearna, when Magearna does just about everything apart from SR setting much better than it does.

Zygarde-Complete: B -> B+

Zygarde-Complete has been having a lot of fun in the recent metagame. For example, it is the only Zygarde forme that can hope to beat Buzzwole with SubCoil, making it effectively great at counterteaming the likes of standard Zygarde's checks. Its amazing bulk in tandem with Power Construct, Leftovers and Dragon Tail also make it better at abusing the likes of Toxic Spikes, as it is able to effectively create 8 or so Substitutes before going down, making a Fairy one of the only ways of beating it. Another thing that makes Zyg-C better in the current meta is the shift of common -atespeed users to Entei, which is easier to exploit for Coil variants as it isn't even able to 2HKO Max Defense neutrally.

Weavile: B -> B-/C
Weavile, however, suffers heavily from the huge rises of Magearna and Entei, as almost every team now has something that can use it as setup fodder. It fails as speed control, as the relevant fast mons that it needs to kill are able to resist Fake Out + Feint, and it can't Pursuit the likes of these either. It has to make constant 50/50s on these faster mons - it simply just can't outright trap things, and as such its niche is very quickly diminishing to the point where I wouldn't use it on a serious team.

Golisopod: A- -> B+
Golisopod has recently been suffering from the heavy influx of Dragons in the new metagame. Counters from the likes of Mega Salamence, Arceus-Dragon, and even more importantly, hard checks like Mew make Golisopod quite hard to justify in the current metagame. It is also extremely prone to letting in high power Red Orb users if Aqua Jet is required to kill something. As speed control, whilst better than Weavile it is quite weak, and quite honestly doesn't make the cut vs the likes of Kartana.

Darkrai: B- -> B+
Despite what I mentioned in the Magearna nomination, Darkrai has been experiencing great joy in any sort of matchup without a Magearna, as it is able to outright 2HKO most of the metagame unboosted. Blastoisinite happens to be a very strong wallbreaker, even slicing through the likes of Ho-oh as a good check. On the other hand, Diancite is a fairly strong revenge killer, which couples a bunch of attributes of Blastoisinite in its own ways, with it also being one of the better answers to Psywave Blissey in the current metagame. It outright breaks better than most of what is in B, due to its singular matchup problem, compared to the multiple that both have.

Xerneas: B+ -> B
Xerneas suffers from the huge influx of Fires and Steels, as usual. What impacts it more, imo, is the greater usage of Entei, capable of defeating most variants well, particularly with Return, as it i even capable of 3HKOing Z-Geo Xern. Scarf is, yet again, Magearna fodder. Xern also suffers from the huge boom of Toxapex usage; which can switch in and Haze its boosts. As a result, it is largely ineffective in the current metagame, and deserves a drop to B for being quite matchup specific.

Keldeo: B+ -> B
Keldeo also suffers from similar problems - vs any form of HO, it barely gets a switchin chance, and vs the likes of Balance and Stall; most have a hard check or counter in the likes of Altarianite Zygarde or Giratina. Even those who don't, still have an easy chance to pivot into the likes of a red orb user or their -atespeed user, resulting in an overall loss of momentum for the user. Toxapex usage curses it yet again, as it must 50/50 between Taunt and an attack, and then 50/50 between an attack or Calm Mind. It makes it rather disappointing to use, especially when Manaphy is much better in these matchups that Keldeo cannot bust through. It is sad to say this, but Pidgeotite gave everything Keldeo wanted, and most of it has been taken away.
Yveltal: UR -> B
Sorry - accidentally deleted this from the VR again. Will be added next update.
 
Not going to comment on other noms, I either agree with them or don't have enough experience with them in the current metagame in order to make a proper argument against their movement. I just want to focus on one nomination specifically.

More nominations to make pre-OMPL. Going to start with a controversial one:

Zygarde: S -> A+

When it comes to looking at Zygarde over the past few years, it has certainly been strong, but is definitely at its worst point yet. New counters such as the likes of Ice Beam Manectite Mew and Aggronite Buzzwole make Zygarde a lot less threatening simply because one of them outright dodges Toxic Spikes and the other makes Dragon Tail progressively weaker, eventually leading Zygarde into a situation where another mon may beat it. The biggest problem with Lucarionite Zygarde right now is its tendency to force -atespeed to come in after phazing one of its many checks, which is a huge problem for it, as it will end up being picked off regardless of how many boosts it has under its belt. Even versus offense, this is a very difficult job to do, as checks such as Landorus-Therian, Calm Mind Arceus-Ground / Arceus-Fairy, Lunala, Altarianite Zygarde itself... heck, even Altarianite, the most different variant, has Kartana to use it as setup fodder, Magearna as a good revenge killer (which can also force out once), Ho-oh deals significant damage with Brave Bird,

You see the point. Checks are abundant to almost every variant and there are some universal counters, like the ones seen above. Toxic Spikes particularly might support Zygarde well in taking out other checks but it will barely ever pass by Buzzwole unless it's caught non-mega, can be traded via Synchronize on Mew, all of these little things that make Zygarde less effective in practice. If they have another Toxic Spikes absorber, often times Zygarde won't ever be able to abuse Toxic Spikes without having that dealt with itself, and therefore, the likes of Ice Beam Arceus can answer very well. It is quite difficult for it to nab a KO as it can't warp its matchups very well and therefore struggles heavily with its counters, unlike PDon and Magearna, which are incredible at doing these roles.

Support options are also fairly limited, with few mons luring in switchins for Zygarde. Very few mons are safe setup fodder for it - the likes of Gliscor and Toxapex are the relevant few which I could see being problematic, and both have ways of working around it, as Gliscor can nab momentum and Toxapex can just set Toxic Spikes / toxic Zygarde, which makes it much harder for it to setup. This usually means it comes in dented for the roles it needs to compress - making it ineffective vs the majority of checks. As a result, it just isn't strong enough to be S, imo.
[/hide]
I do not agree with this nomination.

I feel like this nomination is underselling Zygarde's performance and overestimating the effectiveness of the supposed checks listed. While yes all of these mons have seen some use in recent times, all of them have seen some use because Zygarde is that potent and is needed to be prepped for that well or else you will lose to it. Even then I want argue against the effectiveness in practice for a good chunk of these mons vs Zygarde variants along with as a whole in this current meta. To start out I want to say that Aggronite Buzzwole is the best mon in my eyes to use if you want an answer to the vast majority of Zygarde variants. It deals with all stones fairly handily although if enough pressure is applied Lucarionite can be problematic but most of the time Buzzwole will win out. That's perfectly fine, if there wasn't a mon out there that won versus Zygarde or any threat out there then said threat might be worthy of a ban from the metagame. Buzzwole is also a decent physical check in general against other mons such as Kartana, Terrakion or Pinsirite Magearna if the Buzzwole is running drain punch. (Yes drain Punch is a viable option over earthquake on Buzzwole if the rest of your team is properly equipped to deal with fires that might switch in.) Along with that Buzzwole can act as a late game Bulk Up wincon that takes advantage of defensive walls such as Blissey. Buzzwole has a good, solid niche outside of checking Zygarde, what seperates it from the rest in my eyes is how well it deals with all, or at least both Lucarionite and Altairianite Zygarde along with holding its own weight outside of checking Zygarde.

Ice beam Manectite Mew may be able to deal with Lucarionite handily but it struggles against bulky Altairianite variants (A bulky spread has proven the most fruitful in practice for me while using Altairianite Zygarde due to being able to live 4 seismic tosses with 401 hp and other hits in general.)

Mew switches in on Alt Zygarde, who dragon danced that turn on a forced switch. The next turn Zygarde is able to ddance again because Ice Beam has an extremely minimal chance of 2hkoing Zygarde.

0 SpA Mew Ice Beam vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 170-202 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Zygarde can then proceed to 2hko Mew and possibly sweep backed by +1 attack and +2 speed.

+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 220-259 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sure there may be other offensive answers to Zygarde on that team, but the point here is that Manectite Mew can only handily stop 1 of the 2 main Zygarde stone variants. Outside of that all mew has to offer is being a defogger that loses momentum for the user, possibly allowing another mon to set up or maybe even tspikes going up since even if Mew runs earth power it does not do enough to Gyaradosite Toxapex to dissuade it. In my eyes your defogger should be able to come in on the mon that it is supposed to stop and either force it out or KO it. If it cant do either then it's merely defog fodder, which just seems really poor in my eyes.

Against atespeed Lucarionite Zygarde may not be in that great shape, but Altairianite Zygarde has a fighting chance since Zyg can't stop itself once boosted, meaning that Entei is really the only atespeed mon standing in +1 Alt Zyg's way. Even then Entei isn't a 100% answer.

252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 290-344 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Frustration vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 372-438 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Because of this Entei has to either get a 56.3% frustration roll, or get a good tarrow roll, then hit and burn with a Sacred Fire otherwise it will lose to a combination of thousand arrows into espeed.

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Entei: 328-386 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Entei: 131-154 (30.6 - 36%) -- 49.1% chance to 3HKO

Basically the phazing into atespeed along with atespeed bit in general doesn't apply anywhere close as much to Altairianite Zygarde as it does to Lucarionite. This focused specifically on opposing Zygarde and Entei since you yourself argued for a Weavile drop and other ate mons such as Metagross and Landorus-t don't have priority that can stop a boosted Zygarde properly.

Landorus-t has to either be Altairianite, or explode in order to stop a Zygarde that is at +1.

252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamencite Landorus-Therian: 172-204 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamencite Landorus-Therian: 160-190 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Aerilate Salamencite Landorus-Therian Frustration vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsirite Landorus-Therian: 211-250 (66.1 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsirite Landorus-Therian: 198-234 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Landorus-Therian Frustration vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Calm mind Groundceus isn't too great either at stopping a +1 Zygarde.

+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Ground: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Ground: 241-285 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Lucarionite Zygarde: 316-376 (78.2 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Altairianite Zygarde: 158-188 (39.4 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Judgment and Ice beam do the same damage to Alt Zyg.

Fairyceus has a better damage output against both Zygarde variants but it still falls short.

0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 318-374 (78.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 241-285 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lunala has to either be modest specs and get a roll or burn its Z move to stop both vairants of +1 Zygarde. Choice scarf can dispactch Lucarionite but it cannot beat +1 Altairianite.

+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 191-225 (46 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 382-450 (92 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 150-177 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 301-355 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 177-209 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 354-418 (85.3 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Lunala 200 BP Moongeist Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 355-418 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Lunala 200 BP Moongeist Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 390-459 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Lunala Ice Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Lucarionite Zygarde: 428-504 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Lunala Moonblast vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Altairianite Zygarde: 226-266 (56.3 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lunala Moonblast vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 372-438 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Lucarionite Zygarde has a more difficult time when facing more offensively oriented teams but what it lacks there it makes up in requiring different defensive answers compared to Altairainite Zygarde and being more capable of breaking through certain checks with its greater offensive might. Along with that Lucarionite Zygarde is the only Zygarde that can rely purely on thousand arrows as its attacking move with dragon dance, substitute and pain split being the other moves, a nightmare for stall and more passive builds to face. Deciding on which Zygarde stone and variant to use will bring different checks and counters for each stone and variant, this can be dealt with by the rest of the team as the build needs it.

Continuing on with listed checks from Chazm's post, Thousand arrows is a roll to 2hko Kartana meanwhile unboosted smart strike doesn't OHKO.
Edit: Kart outspeeds LUL, you still have to run smart strike kart and give up return utility

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagrossite Kartana: 119-141 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucarionite Kartana: 121-143 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Kartana Smart Strike vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 296-350 (73.8 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Kartana Smart Strike vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 340-400 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Kartana Return vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 144-170 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Are you sure you want your Magearna eating a big hit from +1 tarrows? I mean sure you might've stopped the Altairianite Zygarde but now mag is hurt. P.S. Pins mag isn't a good Zyg answer.

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sablenite Magearna: 220-260 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Manectite Magearna: 176-208 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Pinsirite Magearna: 132-156 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Smacked Down Pinsirite Magearna: 264-312 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaurite Magearna: 180-214 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Fleur Cannon OHKOs every time.
+1 252+ Atk Magearna Iron Head vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 312-368 (77.8 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ho-oh has to hit and burn because brave bird doesn't OHKO even if banded or z brave bird. If Ho-oh is bulky it gets more chances to do so but still has to rely on burning.

252+ Atk Ho-Oh 190 BP Brave Bird vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 253-298 (63 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 240-283 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 132-156 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grounded Ho-Oh: 264-312 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Notice how all 3 of those mons have a more difficult matchup vs a +1 Lucarionite Zygarde.

If a check means that a mon can dent but not stop a +1 Zygarde then yeah they are common, but if we go by stopping the Zygarde at +1 then there aren't that many solid answers out there without losing 1 mon and having another get chunked just to get rid of it. Sure hazards hinder Zygarde's potential but they also can allow for something that would normally hinder zyg to be crippled. Hazards are a two way street which means that they could be up and weakening a supposed zyg check, along with that they aren't guaranteed to always be up either. Even then something like toxic isn't the end of the world for Zygarde, all it might need is to get to +1 without dying or without being reduced to a certain amount of HP just so it can live 1 hit and it might just win the game. (Also who in their right mind stays in with Toxapex vs a Zygarde to tspike or toxic are you insane?) That's why Zygarde is so threatening. It doesn't need to lure in its checks to be effective, albeit those lures do exist in the mono tarrows luc zyg set I mentioned earlier, Facade on certain builds to muscle through walls that rely on status, HP fire to take advantage of mega evolved Aggronite Buzzwole and Lucarionite draco meteor to dent pre mega Buzzwole on the initial switchin. Zygarde does have some lure sets, but usually it doesn't need or want them.

To summarize. Zygarde has very few true checks and counters. Buzzwole is the best answer to the two most common Zygarde stones but some variants can deal with Buzzwole better than others so its not a 100% guaranteed stop but it's as close as you can get. Relying on a check that only chips and doesn't actually kill Zygarde isn't smart because you won't always get the damage off you need for supposed check to kill, hazards are almost never guaranteed. Along with that a check for one stone/variant of Zygarde doesn't always check the other stone/variant of Zygarde. Altairianite and Lucarionite each have their own checks and can do different things, Altairianite deals with more offensive teams better meanwhile Lucarionite deals with breaking through the bulk better. You can try to guess and play according to said guesses, but you can't instantly know what Zygarde variant you will need to deal with from team preview. All of these reasons combined with the proven performance of both Lucarionite and Altairianite Zygarde I believe are sufficient reasons to keep Zygarde in S rank.
 
Last edited:

Mageic Master

Banned deucer.
Not going to comment on other noms, I either agree with them or don't have enough experience with them in the current metagame in order to make a proper argument against their movement. I just want to focus on one nomination specifically.



I do not agree with this nomination.

I feel like this nomination is underselling Zygarde's performance and the effectiveness of the supposed checks listed. While yes all of these mons have seen some use in recent times, all of them have seen some use because Zygarde is that potent and is needed to be prepped for that well or else you will lose to it. Even then I want argue against the effectiveness in practice for a good chunk of these mons vs Zygarde variants along with as a whole in this current meta. To start out I want to say that Aggronite Buzzwole is the best mon in my eyes to use if you want an answer to the vast majority of Zygarde variants. It deals with all stones fairly handily although if enough pressure is applied Lucarionite can be problematic but most of the time Buzzwole will win out. That's perfectly fine, if there wasn't a mon out there that won versus Zygarde or any threat out there then said threat might be worthy of a ban from the metagame. Buzzwole is also a decent physical check in general against other mons such as Kartana, Terrakion or Pinsirite Magearna if the Buzzwole is running drain punch. (Yes drain Punch is a viable option over earthquake on Buzzwole if the rest of your team is properly equipped to deal with fires that might switch in.) Along with that Buzzwole can act as a late game Bulk Up wincon that takes advantage of defensive walls such as Blissey. Buzzwole has a good, solid niche outside of checking Zygarde, what seperates it from the rest in my eyes is how well it deals with all, or at least both Lucarionite and Altairianite Zygarde along with holding its own weight outside of checking Zygarde.

Ice beam Manectite Mew may be able to deal with Lucarionite handily but it struggles against bulky Altairianite variants (A bulky spread has proven the most fruitful in practice for me while using Altairianite Zygarde due to being able to live 4 seismic tosses with 401 hp and other hits in general.)

Mew switches in on Alt Zygarde, who dragon danced that turn on a forced switch. The next turn Zygarde is able to ddance again because Ice Beam has an extremely minimal chance of 2hkoing Zygarde.

0 SpA Mew Ice Beam vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 170-202 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Zygarde can then proceed to 2hko Mew and possibly sweep backed by +1 attack and +2 speed.

+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 220-259 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sure there may be other offensive answers to Zygarde on that team, but the point here is that Manectite Mew can only handily stop 1 of the 2 main Zygarde stone variants. Outside of that all mew has to offer is being a defogger that loses momentum for the user, possibly allowing another mon to set up or maybe even tspikes going up since even if Mew runs earth power it does not do enough to Gyaradosite Toxapex to dissuade it. In my eyes your defogger should be able to come in on the mon that it is supposed to stop and either force it out or KO it. If it cant do either then it's merely defog fodder, which just seems really poor in my eyes.

Against atespeed Lucarionite Zygarde may not be in that great shape, but Altairianite Zygarde has a fighting chance since Zyg can't stop itself once boosted, meaning that Entei is really the only atespeed mon standing in +1 Alt Zyg's way. Even then Entei isn't a 100% answer.

252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 290-344 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Frustration vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 372-438 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Because of this Entei has to either get a 56.3% frustration roll, or get a good tarrow roll, then hit and burn with a Sacred Fire otherwise it will lose to a combination of thousand arrows into espeed.

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Entei: 328-386 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Entei: 131-154 (30.6 - 36%) -- 49.1% chance to 3HKO

Basically the phazing into atespeed along with atespeed bit in general doesn't apply anywhere close as much to Altairianite Zygarde as it does to Lucarionite. This focused specifically on opposing Zygarde and Entei since you yourself argued for a Weavile drop and other ate mons such as Metagross and Landorus-t don't have priority that can stop a boosted Zygarde properly.

Landorus-t has to either be Altairianite, or explode in order to stop a Zygarde that is at +1.

252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamencite Landorus-Therian: 172-204 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamencite Landorus-Therian: 160-190 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Aerilate Salamencite Landorus-Therian Frustration vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsirite Landorus-Therian: 211-250 (66.1 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsirite Landorus-Therian: 198-234 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Landorus-Therian Frustration vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Calm mind Groundceus isn't too great either at stopping a +1 Zygarde.

+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Ground: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Ground: 241-285 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Lucarionite Zygarde: 316-376 (78.2 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Altairianite Zygarde: 158-188 (39.4 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Judgment and Ice beam do the same damage to Alt Zyg.

Fairyceus has a better damage output against both Zygarde variants but it still falls short.

0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 318-374 (78.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 241-285 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lunala has to either be modest specs and get a roll or burn its Z move to stop both vairants of +1 Zygarde. Choice scarf can dispactch Lucarionite but it cannot beat +1 Altairianite.

+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 191-225 (46 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 382-450 (92 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 150-177 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 301-355 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 177-209 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 354-418 (85.3 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Lunala 200 BP Moongeist Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 355-418 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Lunala 200 BP Moongeist Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 390-459 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Lunala Ice Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Lucarionite Zygarde: 428-504 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Lunala Moonblast vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Altairianite Zygarde: 226-266 (56.3 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lunala Moonblast vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 372-438 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Lucarionite Zygarde has a more difficult time when facing more offensively oriented teams but what it lacks there it makes up in requiring different defensive answers compared to Altairainite Zygarde and being more capable of breaking through certain checks with its greater offensive might. Along with that Lucarionite Zygarde is the only Zygarde that can run purely on thousand arrows as its attacking move with dragon dance, substitute and pain split being the other moves, a nightmare for stall and more passive builds to face. Deciding on which Zygarde stone and variant to use will bring different checks and counters for each stone and variant, this can be dealt with by the rest of the team as the build needs it.

Continuing on with listed checks from Chazm's post, Thousand arrows is a roll to 2hko Kartana meanwhile unboosted smart strike doesn't OHKO.
Edit: Kart outspeeds LUL, you still have to run smart strike kart and give up return utility

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagrossite Kartana: 119-141 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucarionite Kartana: 121-143 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Kartana Smart Strike vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 296-350 (73.8 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Kartana Smart Strike vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 340-400 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Kartana Return vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 144-170 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Are you sure you want your Magearna eating a big hit from +1 tarrows? I mean sure you might've stopped the Altairianite Zygarde but now mag is hurt. P.S. Pins mag isn't a good Zyg answer.

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sablenite Magearna: 220-260 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Manectite Magearna: 176-208 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Pinsirite Magearna: 132-156 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Smacked Down Pinsirite Magearna: 264-312 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaurite Magearna: 180-214 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Fleur Cannon OHKOs every time.
+1 252+ Atk Magearna Iron Head vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 312-368 (77.8 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ho-oh has to hit and burn because brave bird doesn't OHKO even if banded or z brave bird. If Ho-oh is bulky it gets more chances to do so but still has to rely on burning.

252+ Atk Ho-Oh 190 BP Brave Bird vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 253-298 (63 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 240-283 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 132-156 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grounded Ho-Oh: 264-312 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Notice how all 3 of those mons have a more difficult matchup vs a +1 Lucarionite Zygarde.

If a check means that a mon can dent but not stop a +1 Zygarde then yeah they are common, but if we go by stopping the Zygarde at +1 then there aren't that many solid answers out there without losing 1 mon and having another get chunked just to get rid of it. Sure hazards hinder Zygarde's potential but they also can allow for something that would normally hinder zyg to be crippled. Hazards are a two way street which means that they could be up and weakening a supposed zyg check, along with that they aren't guaranteed to always be up either. Even then something like toxic isn't the end of the world for Zygarde, all it might need is to get to +1 without dying or without being reduced to a certain amount of HP just so it can live 1 hit and it might just win the game. (Also who in their right mind stays in with Toxapex vs a Zygarde to tspike or toxic are you insane?) That's why Zygarde is so threatening. It doesn't need to lure in its checks to be effective, albeit those lures do exist in the mono tarrows luc zyg set I mentioned earlier, Facade on certain builds to muscle through walls that rely on status, HP fire to take advantage of mega evolved Aggronite Buzzwole and Lucarionite draco meteor to dent pre mega Buzzwole on the initial switchin. Zygarde does have some lure sets, but usually it doesn't need or want them.

To summarize. Zygarde has very few true checks and counters. Buzzwole is the best answer to the two most common Zygarde stones but some variants can deal with Buzzwole better than others so its not a 100% guaranteed stop but it's as close as you can get. Relying on a check that only chips and doesn't actually kill Zygarde isn't smart because you won't always get the damage off you need for supposed check to kill, hazards are almost never guaranteed. Along with that a check for one stone/variant of Zygarde doesn't always check the other stone/variant of Zygarde. Altairianite and Lucarionite each have their own checks and can do different things, Altairianite deals with more offensive teams better meanwhile Lucarionite deals with breaking through the bulk better. You can try to guess and play according to said guesses, but you can't instantly know what Zygarde variant you will need to deal with from team preview. All of these reasons combined with the proven performance of both Lucarionite and Altairianite Zygarde I believe are sufficient reasons to keep Zygarde in S rank.
Basically all of these calcs are assuming at zygarde had setup, and not the attacking mons. EG fairyceus. Fairyceus also runs lots of physical defense so can tank anything below +3 that zygarde throws at it. All buzzwole variants just stops zygarde in its tracks, entei can espeed it and ohko the generic altarianite variants. With the rise of manectites in MnM recently, intimidate can take down zygarde's +1 set ups. I don't see what the point was of you including the magearna calcs, because you just proved it to win. I think what Chazm meant by CM pokemon, was that they would usually have +1 by the time zygarde came in. Thank you Chazm and Stresh for pointing out what a bad poster I am, but I hope this is an improvement.
 
Basically all of these calcs are assuming at zygarde had setup, and not the attacking mons. EG fairyceus. Fairyceus also runs lots of physical defense so can tank anything below +3 that zygarde throws at it. All buzzwole variants just stops zygarde in its tracks, entei can espeed it and ohko the generic altarianite variants. With the rise of manectites in MnM recently, intimidate can take down zygarde's +1 set ups. I don't see what the point was of you including the magearna calcs, because you just proved it to win. I think what Chazm meant by CM pokemon, was that they would usually have +1 by the time zygarde came in. Thank you Chazm and Stresh for pointing out what a bad poster I am, but I hope this is an improvement.
Chazm posted mons that he thought were solid answers to Zygarde, meaning that they could switch in and stop a boosted zyg. I made my post to show that a good chunk of the mons that he listed don't work nearly as well as zyg checks in practice. Fairyceus is still 2hkod by +1 Altairianite Zygarde and has a decent chance to be 2hkod by Lucarionite.

+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 220-259 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 204-242 (45.9 - 54.5%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO

Once again, Judgment doesn't OHKO in return meaning that Zygarde can still bust through. If you instead run wisp Fairyceus, you neuter most Zygarde variants but you have to watch out for Facade. Iron defense is also an option that deals with Zygarde better but by running Iron defense or Will o Wisp you give up the utility of a CM variant, earth power coverage, or even just toxic.

Concerning Buzzwole, I did mention it as the best Zygarde answer in the metagame, thank you for agreeing with my statements. Once again, there isn't anything wrong with a certain threat having answers. It's once the answers become more numerous, effective and viable to the point where said threat cannot possibly be viable or nearly as effective that it drops in viability. Zygarde doesn't have nearly enough concrete answers for both of its common stone variants and is not hindered enough by the answers that are there to drop from S rank in my eyes.

I literally posted calcs of how much Entei does to Zygarde and even if the zyg is a max speed max attack jolly variant espeed from Entei still doesnt OHKO.

252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 290-344 (81.2 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Manectite has really only been seen on Mew and Alomomola as of late. The former cannot stop a +1 Altairianite Zygarde even with intimidate dropping the attack to neutral as I showed in my original post. The latter does do a good job of handling both Zygarde variants with intimidate paired with play nice, but this becomes bait and fodder for Primal Groudon, which can be especially disastrous against setup variants. Manectite has also been run on Magearna but that's a different situation entirely.

I included the Magearna calcs because Chazm brought it up as one of the checks to Altairianite Zygarde. Yes, most of them can live and deal with alt zyg, but in the process they take a big hit and are greatly limited in their effectiveness versus other threats that they need their health to deal with such as Lunala, Darkrai, Tapu Lele, or even Blissey. Magearna can role compress and act as a Zygarde answer in a pinch, but it can't do it continually and is limited in its effectiveness elsewhere due to it.

Chazm mentioned CM mons because that's their most common set currently, not because said sets are most effective at dealing with Zygarde. It doesn't make sense to argue for a situation where said setup mon already has boosts and is attempting to deal with Zygarde because that is not the point of zyg. Zygarde is not meant to be a defensive answer that can set up and beat those mons, all of those mons and situations were brought up to argue about a reverse situation, one where Zygarde is the boosted mon and the others are trying to stop it. That is the whole point of a check, Zygarde is not the mon that is checking another, it is trying to beat the suggested checks.

I see that you are trying to be a better poster, and you had the right idea of coming here to talk about and interact with others over the viability rankings, which is a good start on the road to becoming a better poster and contributor. But in this situation your arguments weren't solid or were just flatly wrong in some areas. Don't let this discourage you, learn from it, become better experienced in the subject matter and come back at the next opportunity better prepared for more discussion.
 
newly updated speed tiers here
602 / Lucarionite Zygarde / 117 / Neutral / 124 / +2
585 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 0 / +3
558 / Altarianite Zygarde / 95 / Neutral / 212 / +2
558 / Cameruptite Volcarona / 80 / +Spe / 232 / +2
528 / Zygarde-C / 85 / Neutral / 232 / +2
526 / Diancite Tapu Koko / 190 / +Spe / 252 / 0
520 / Diancite Shaymin-S / 187 / +Spe / 252 / 0
518 / Altarianite Genesect / 99 / +Spe / 8 / +2
515 / Diancite Darkrai / 185 / +Spe / 252 / 0
512 / Pinsirite Magearna / 85 / Neutral/ 200 / +2
506 / Necrozma-Dusk-Mane / 77 / Neutral / 252 / +2
489 / Yveltal or Xerneas / 99 / +Spe / 252 / +1
486 / Altarianite Zygarde / 95 / Neutral/ 68 / +2
482 / Diancite Archeops / 170 / +Spe / 252 / 0
480 / Diancite Kartana / 169 / +Spe / 252 / 0
478 / Diancite Terrakion/Keldeo / 168 / +Spe / 252 / 0
468 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 0 / +2
456 / Groudon-Primal / 90 / Neutral / 48 / +2
451 / Lucarionite Zygarde / 117 / Neutral / 124 / +1
449 / Diancite Tapu Lele / 155 / +Spe / 252 / 0
448 / Red Orb Volcarona / 100 / Neutral / 252 / 0
443 / Lucarionite Tapu Koko / 152 / +Spe / 252 / 0
436 / Metagrossite Kartana / 149 / +Spe / 252 / 0
427 / Glalitite Weavile / 145 / +Spe / 252 / 0
418 / Altarianite Zygarde / 95 / Neutral / 212/ +1
418 / Cameruptite Volcarona / 80 / +Spe / 232 / +1
416 / Absolite Manaphy / 140 / +Spe / 252 / 0
396 / Zygarde-C / 85 / Neutral / 232 / +1
394 / Lucarionite Terrakion/Keldeo / 130 / +Spe / 252 / 0
392 / Necrozma-Ultra / 129 / +Spe / 252 / 0
390 / Pinsirite Cobalion / 128 / +Spe / 252 / 0
388 / Red Orb Shaymin-S / 127 / +Spe / 252 / 0
383 / Blastoisinite Darkrai / 125 / +Spe / 252 / 0
370 / Pinsirite Genesect / 119 / +Spe / 252 / 0
366 / Lucarionite Tapu Lele / 117 / +Spe / 252 / 0
364 / Altarianite Zygarde / 95 / Neutral / 68 / +1
361 / Red Orb Azelf / 115 / +Spe / 252 / 0
353 / Pinsirite/Salamencite Landorus / 111 / +Spe / 252 / 0
333 / Lucarionite Mamoswine / 102 / +Spe / 252 / 0
329 / Red Orb Raikou / 115 / Neutral / 252 / 0
326 / Yveltal or Xerneas / 99 / +Spe / 252 / 0
323 / Arceus / 120 / Neutral / 188 / 0
322 / Lunala / 97 / +Spe / 252 / 0
317 / Rayquaza / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 0
309 / Altarianite Landorus-T / 91 / +Spe / 252 / 0
307 / Manectite Mew/Zapdos / 130 / Neutral / 44 / 0
307 / Arceus or Salamence-Mega / 120 / Neutral / 124 / 0
306 / Pinsirite Metagross / 90 / +Spe / 252+ / 0
302 / Groudon-Primal / 90 / +Spe / 236 / 0
301 / Lucarionite Zygarde / 117 / Neutral / 124 / 0
299 / Altarianite Entei Red Orb Volcarona or Red Orb Victini / 100 / Neutral / 252 / 0
281 / Manectite Magearna / 95 / Neutral/ 220 / 0
280 / Arceus / 120 / Neutral / 16 / 0
279 / Altarianite Zygarde / 95 / Neutral / 212 / 0
279 / Groudon-Primal, Ho-Oh or Kyogre-Primal / 90 / Neutral / 252 / 0
279 / Cameruptite Volcarona / 80 / +Spe / 232 / 0
264 / Zygarde-C / 85 / Neutral / 232 / 0
259 / Altarianite Genesect / 99 / +Spe / 8 / 0
258 / Altarianite Entei / 100 / Neutral / 88 / 0
256 / Pinsirite Magearna / 85 / Neutral/ 200 / 0
253 / Necrozma-Dusk-Mane / 77 / Neutral / 252 / 0
243 / Altarianite Zygarde / 95 / Neutral / 68 / 0
236 / Aggronite Mew, Blue Orb Celebi or Venusaurite Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / 0 / 0
234 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 0 / 0
228 / Groudon-Primal / 90 / Neutral / 48 / 0
226 / Venusaurite Gliscor / 95 / Neutral / 0 / 0
216 / Ho-Oh, Groudon-Primal, Kyogre-Primal, Giratina, Giratina-O or Ampharosite Jirachi / 90 / Neutral / 0 / 0
206 / Zygarde-C / 85 / Neutral / 0 / 0
197 / Cameruptite Manaphy / 80 / Neutral / 4 / 0
196 / Groudon-Primal / 90 / -Spe / 4 / 0
194 / Blue Orb/Aggronite Buzzwole / 79 / Neutral / 0 / 0
176 / Sablenite Mew, Sablenite Zapdos or Blue Orb/Venusaurite Skarmory / 70 / Neutral / 0 / 0
166 / Venusaurite/Latiasite/Blue Orb Magearna / 65 / Neutral / 0 / 0
144 / Ho-Oh / 90 / Neutral / 0 / -1
130 / Venusaurite Hippowdon / 47 / Neutral / 0 / 0
126 / Cameruptite Magearna / 45 / Neutral / 0 / 0
116 / Blue Orb Golisopod / 40 / Neutral / 0 / 0
106 / Sablenite Magearna or Gyaradosite/Latiasite Toxapex / 35 / Neutral / 0 / 0
86 / Sablenite Blissey / 25 / Neutral / 0 / 0
85 / Cameruptite Magearna / 45 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0IVs
70 / Sablenite Hippowdon / 17 / Neutral / 0 / 0
54 / Sablenite Gastrodon / 9 / Neutral / 0 / 0
46 / Gyaradosite Shuckle / 5 / Neutral / 0 / 0
38 / Ampharosite Shuckle / 1 / Neutral / 0 / 0
9 / Heracronite Stakataka 3 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0IVs
 
Last edited:

Chazm

yeet
is a Pre-Contributor
Can I ask why Gourgeist isn't ranked?
Gourgeist is mainly unranked because the roles it can offer are usually done better by other Pokemon. For example, Mew and Buzzwole are better Aggronite users because of the former's greater supportive movepool and the latter's huge physical bulk, where as Gourgeist can provide neither of those roles. It also suffers immense competition from Dhelmise, as that gets Rapid Spin, something which is great for counterleading mons like Shuckle.
 
Zeraora (Pinsirite, Lopunnite): UR -> C

Zeraora is an interesting Pokemon in Mix and Mega. It has great Speed, decent attacking stats, and a somewhat impressive movepool. These two attributes work well together with Pinsirite and Lopunnite. While there are some other niche stones that have some success on it, like Aggronite and Charizardite X, they prove to be quite inconsistent and can cost the game with one wrong move.

With Pinsirite, Zeraora obtains good role compression as a breaker and as a form of speed control, being able to 3HKO Cameruptite Magearna if it's played correctly. This is only a niche option though, as Magearna can easily break through Mega-Evolved Zeraora with Thunderbolt or Ice Beam. However, Pinsirite Zeroara is still able to 3HKO Primal Groudon and 2HKO most other Ground-types. Not much else to say.

Lopunnite Zeraora is nice, as it's able to revenge kill fast foes like Terrakion, Lucarionite Zygarde, and Kartana easily, and in the case of Terrakion and Kartana, it can revenge kill them from full health. With STAB Close Combat, Zeraora can revenge kill other foes like Lucarionite Zygarde and Magearna if they're weakened already as well, and with its nice movepool, Zeraora can use Volt Switch to perform as a fast pivot, Fire Punch to take care of Aggronite Buzzwole more easily, Taunt to cripple various passive Pokemon, Fake Out to apply some chip damage to foes before pivoting out with Volt Switch, and even very niche options like Iron Tail to hit Altarianite Zygarde on the switch.

Zeraora's downfall comes from the fact that basically any role it can perform is done better by other Pokemon, such as Magearna, Tapu Koko, and Terrakion; however, Zeraora's huge Speed and ability to apply decent role compression to any team its on gives it a niche to be used over them.
 

Mageic Master

Banned deucer.
I would like to suggest mewtwo for B or B- rank. It can pretty easily 6-0 some teams as shown with Quantum Tesseract facing Chazm here https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-771041529. Protect and substitute with leftovers is really irritating to deal with especially with toxic spikes support as well as having calm mind to keep the substitute against special attackers. It breaks blissed with psystrike and sub, magearna the same way as well as... dhelmise I guess and many other things which I can’t be bothered to name. As you all know, I suck at nominations so don’t judge. Quantum Tesseract also has a few other replays with vintwo being crazy annoying and I hope Chazm will forgive me for sharing that replay.


Also, manectite to B rank because of its easy ability to be used on most bulky Pokémon or special attackers to shut them down pretty quickly. Zygarde, Zeraora, other Pokemon beginning with ‘z’ and terrakion all lose to most manectite Pokemon.
 
check compendium
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 144 HP / 44 Atk / 164 SpD / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Smack Down
- Fire Punch/Rest/Rock Polish
129132
129136
129142
129143
129149
129150
129151
129154
129155
129161
129165
129178
129159
129192


Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 8 HP / 16 Def / 244 SpA / 80 SpD / 156 Spe
Mild Nature
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Overheat/Fire Blast/Eruption
- Stone Edge/Smack Down/HP Ice
129132
129136
129142
129143
129150
129151
129154
129155
129159
129161
129165
129178
129181
129192


Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 196 SpD / 4 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Overheat
- Precipice Blades
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
129136
129142
129132
129146
129147
129148
129149
129150
129151
129154
129156
129155
129159
129161
129165
129178
129187
129192
129240


Magearna @ Cameruptite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature / Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk OR 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Flash Cannon / Shadow Ball / Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Focus Blast
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split / Trick Room
129130
129134
129137
129139
129143
129147
129154
129159
129160
129172


Magearna @ Manectite / Alakazite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split
129130
129137
129139
129143
129144
129147
129154
129160
129172


Magearna @ Pinsirite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Shift Gear
- Pain Split
- Heal Bell / Substitute / Iron Defense / Light Screen
129136
129148
129157
129162
129169
129172
129192


Zygarde @ Lucarionite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 200 Atk / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute / Pain Split / Glare
- Dragon Tail
- Dragon Dance / Coil
129131
129142
129152
129154
129159
129164
129163
129192


Zygarde @ Altarianite / Pinsirite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Dance / Coil
- Frustration / Facade / Pain Split
129131
129136
129147
129148
129152
129153
129154
129160
129134
129169
129162
129184
129192
129185
129138


Terrakion @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Taunt / Substitute
129131
129150
129152
129153
129159
129160
129161
129164
129192


Entei @ Altarianite / Pinsirite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge / Stomping Tantrum
- Frustration / Howl
129130
129131
129132
129136
129144
129146
129154
129156
129157
129169


Mew @ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock / Psychic / Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot / Calm Mind
- Roost
129134
129146
129151
129163
129162
129175
129169
129187
129192
129195


Darkrai @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb
- Taunt / Substitute / Thunder / Ice Beam
129146
129152
129159
129160
129169
129187
129192
129195
129164
129177
129183


Kartana @ Metagrossite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Frustration / Smart Strike
129136
129138
129147
129148
129149
129150
129151
129160
129182
129192
129195


Blissey @ Sablenite
Ability: Natural Cure / Healer
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD OR 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss / Psywave
- Softboiled / Wish
- Heal Bell / Toxic
- Protect / Heal Bell / Toxic / Stealth Rock / Confide / Charm
129130
129131
129134
129137
129138
129146
129147
129154
129159
129160
129161
129162
129165
129169
129171
129175
129177
129178
129179
129180
129181
129182
129183
129184
129186
129192


Victini @ Red Orb
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- V-Create
- Bolt Strike
- Glaciate / Blue Flare / U-Turn
- Taunt / U- Turn / Blue Flare
129130
129132
129144
129148
129150
129151
129155
129158
129159
129169
129178
129192


Lunala @ Lunalium Z
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Substitute / Roost
129146
129163
129187
129195
129237
129240


Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Solganium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Autotomize
129136
129146
129147
129148
129161
129162
129195
129192
129187
129156
129154
129153


Golisopod @ Blue Orb
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Leech Life / Pain Split / Spikes
- Swords Dance / Toxic / Spikes
129130
129137
129146
129149
129150
129151
129155
129156
129165
129172
129182
129195
129192
129187


Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Recover
129136
129140
129138
129146
129147
129148
129161
129162
129169
129171
129184
129185
129240


Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs 248 HP / 208 Atk / 52 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
129136
129148
129146
129148
129150
129156
129157
129169
129183
129178
129181


Ho-Oh @ Choice Band
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Earthquake
- Toxic
129136
129148
129150
129149
129156
129157
129169
129178


Tapu Lele @ Diancite
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind / Psyshock
- Focus Blast / Shadow Ball / HP Fire / Taunt
129131
129134
129140
129146
129162
129171
129169
129185
129237


Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Geomancy
- Thunder / Ingrain
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ground / Rest
129130
129131
129134
129140
129146
129147
129159
129169
129240


Manaphy @ Absolite
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Ice Beam / Grass Knot
- Shadow Ball / Ice Beam
129130
129137
129144
129146
129161
129171
129172
129184
129237


Azelf @ Red Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic / Taunt / Stealth Rock
129142
129144
129147
129150
129151
129154
129157
129155
129161
129169
129163
129171
129183
129195
129237
129132


Raikou @ Red Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Weather Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind / Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice / Volt Switch / Toxic / Magnet Rise
129130
129132
129142
129144
129150
129151
129155
129157
129159
129158
129171
129178
129183
129240
129237


Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe OR 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 Spe
Impish / Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Coil / Dragon Dance
- Substitute / Rest
- Dragon Tail / Protect
129131
129143
129152
129154
129155
129156
129159
129163
129164
129181
129186
129192
129195


Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 88 Def / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
129130
129137
129142
129150
129151
129155
129156
129158
129165
129171
129172
129184
129183


Kyogre @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
129130
129142
129150
129155
129156
129158
129165
129137
129172
129184


Genesect @ Altarianite
Ability: Download
EVs 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shift Gear
- Blaze Kick
- Extreme Speed
- Return / Explosion
129130
129172
129146
129136
129134
129131
129157
129160
129169


Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Ascent
- V-Create
- Extreme Speed
129131
129148
129149
129152
129154
129155
129156
129157
129163
129159
129160
129164
129180
129183
129172
129195
129237
 
Last edited:
I would like to suggest klingklang for C+ or B- rank. When it switches in on something like Tapu Lele, it gets a free shift gear set up and can potentially beat 2 or 3 mons with its Pinsirite set. It can break Blissey easily, with its immunity to toxic, and after one shift gear, can kill fast offensive Pokemon like Terrakion and Zeraora. It can wall altarianite zygarde (although people have told me it’s not that good anymore. I can’t see why not.) and with +2 or +3 attack, potentially lucarionite zygarde as well. This is my 3rd post or so, so don’t judge me.
Also, thank you In The Hills, Chazm and Stresh for helping me to get into MnM.
 

Chazm

yeet
is a Pre-Contributor
I would like to suggest klingklang for C+ or B- rank. When it switches in on something like Tapu Lele, it gets a free shift gear set up and can potentially beat 2 or 3 mons with its Pinsirite set. It can break Blissey easily, with its immunity to toxic, and after one shift gear, can kill fast offensive Pokemon like Terrakion and Zeraora. It can wall altarianite zygarde (although people have told me it’s not that good anymore. I can’t see why not.) and with +2 or +3 attack, potentially lucarionite zygarde as well. This is my 3rd post or so, so don’t judge me.
Also, thank you In The Hills, Chazm and Stresh for helping me to get into MnM.
Slight problem... Magearna pulls it off far better than Klinklang could hope to do. The only notable niche is Gear Grind to hit Rock-types, but even then it can barely do anything when met with a proper Flying-resist like Zapdos, which Cobalion can hurt with Stone Edge, and Magearna can click Heal Bell on the switch, making it a massive annoyance long-term. There are posts about it on the main thread afaik, just look there and you may see messages about it.
 

Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ok so bee meaning to post some thoughts on the VR as its been quite a while that it hasn't been updated and there are some changes I would like sen to be made especially with OMPL currently going on:

Rises:

A+ -> S
Magearna should sincerely be considered for a rise to the coveted S-Rank at this point as both the potency of all its current viable sets (ie: all the Camel variants, Manectite pivot, defensive Sab or Venu pivot, Shift Gear Pinsirite, even Shift Gear + Calm Mind DD variants) and its overall impact on teambuilding makes it fit alongside the other current S-rank mons in Zyg and Pdon imo. Mag's splashability really cannot be stressed enough given how many roles it can perform while also being able to compress such given roles at the same time. Need a setup sweeper that can break through both stall and offense? Trick Room + Calm Mind Camel Mag is there. Need a defensive pivot that can switch into the most threatening Special attackers in the metagame such as Darkrai, Tapu Lele, and Lunala? Sablenite Magearna is there. Want an offensive pivot that can both switch into threats while forcing opposing threats out at the same time? Manectite Magearna has got your back. My point is, even if Magearna cannot obviously run all these sets at once, the fact that that most of them can be placed on the plethora of teams and consistently perform their respective roles (which is often more then one) attests to how much of an effect Mag has on the current metagame imo.

Here is a brief discussion that I had with a current council member Chazm on the matter:
https://pastebin.com/ijBQVQCh

Also some replays from OMPL demonstrating high quality play of Mag putting in a tone of work:


A- -> A+
Landorus-T has really shown itself to be quite the capable threat right now with its bulky Swords Dance + Stealth Rock Salamencite sets which can usually get up SR against most forms of entry hazard removal especially with the decline in usage of Zapdos. Its good bulk in tandem with its formidable power even when unboosted allows it to tear through most balance teams especially considering how remarkable its STAB coverage is. Coupled with the fact that it can run other useful options such as U-Turn and even a double Dance setup set which can break through offense enables Landorus-T to truly shine in the given metagame. Competition as an offensive Ground-type with Zygarde and Pdon isnt even that apparent considering how well it pairs with the aforementioned threats, forming devastating cores when paired with a Magearna of course.


A- -> A
Both Latiasite and Gyaradosite sets are really good at the given moment, acting as a great defensive pivot for balance teams that can check a slew of attackers such as most Primal Groudon, Buzzwole, certain Kartana sets with a Latiasite and Lunala, Tapu Lele, Ultra Necrozma, NP Mew with a Gyaradosite. Toxic Spikes are also pretty valuable in the current metgame when paired with big threats like Sub Coil Zygarde, Protect DD Zyg-C, and even other tech options such as Sub Terrak and Lunala, where Toxapex is pretty much the only viable user of the move (yes there is Greninja but that really team specific). The mindgames Toxapex can force as well when deciding when it chooses to mega evolve thanks to it also having access to Regen pre-mega also further makes it difficult to properly account for given how its mega stone options either give an immunity to one of its weaknesses or changes its typing entirely, altering what is actually able to break through it. Zygarde still puts a huge strain on it and prevents it from rising any further, but I feel it can fit comfortably alongside the other A-rank threats right now.

B -> B+
Red Orb NP Azelf is a terrific wallbreaker thanks to its great power and Speed in conjunction with how potent its STAB coverage alongside coverage options such as Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, and Shadow Ball makes it extremely hard to properly counter. It can usually force out many common defensive threats such as Magearna, non Gyaradosite-Toxapex, Arceus-Fairy, and Mew and proceed to use them as setup fodder, usually sweeping teams that do not have a means of offensively checking it which can be difficult given its great Speed tier. It does use up the teams Red Orb slot meaning it cant be paired with other wallbreakers such as Victini or Primal Groudon which is unfortunate, but I still feel Azelf fits itself on a number of teams to be worth considering a raise.


B- -> B / B+
I feel Darkrai has proven itself to be quite a capable sweeper in the given metagame with either its Blastoisnite and Diancite sets where the former lets it break through pretty much everything at +2 with Dark Pulse while the ladder enables it to check offense rather well due to its incredible Speed. The decline of Altarianite / Pinsirite Zyg usage in favor of Lucarionite also further helps Dakrai sweep many more games due to it not facing the main form to offensively check it. Coverage in Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb and Thunder also enables it to break through checks such as Magearna, Blissey, Arceus Fairy and Ho-Oh, while other utility options like Taunt and Substitute enables it to wallbreak certain walls even further. The presence of Magearna severly hinders it, but I still feel B- does not accurately represent Darkrai's given position especially considering how well its been performing in OMPL.

C -> B-
Lucarionite Mamoswine is quite the decent wallbreaker thanks to a great unresisted STAB combo that only gets stopped by Golissopod and Latiasite Toxapex. The ability to set up Stealth Rocks sort of reliably versus most Sablenite users means it can fit well on certain bulky offensive teans that need a means of breaking through common balance cores such as Bliss + Mag and Zap + Skarm + Bliss. Its below average Speed in tandem with a poor defensive typing + stats really limits it, but besides that I feel a small rise for Mamo is warranted at the current moment.

UR -> B-
I initially thought Zeraora would have been better but alas our little Electric friend hasn't really been performing as well as I thought it would. Even though it has a great speed tier which lets it offensively check even the fastest of threats such as Diancite Tapu Lele and Metagrossite Kartana, it still fails to properly break through most walls in the current metagame such as defensive Primal Groudon, Sablenite Magearna, and Gliscor, as they all require a significant amount of chip to be beaten by Zera. Sets such as Pinsirite and Glalitite perform well given their great STAB combo, while sets such as Lopunnite enable it get a better offensive typing and gives it a better STAB move to spam, however all of the aforementioned sets struggle to deal consistent damage given how bulky certain defensive threats can be, while Zeraoara's meager defenses means it can be checked by most priority users as well. I still need to test setup boosting sets with Bulk Up and see how that performs versus defensive teams but as for now I feel B- is a good place to start, although I can see a potential rise in the future.

UR -> C (Altarianite, Salamencite)
Surprised not to see this ranked yet, Noivern is a pretty simple threat that just spams -Ate Boomburst and break down most teams that dont have a Blissey or Magearna on them (hence why its being nommed low). Its good coverage lets it still break through certain walls and it can also be annoying with Taunt and U-Turn, but yeh its a pretty cool wallbreaker which is especially good thanks to its already good Speed tier pre-mega evolving.

UR -> C (Lopunnite)
Dugtrio has recently been popping up thanks to its ability to trap key threats such as Blissey, Magearna, non-Latiasite Toxapex, and Primal Groudon before it Mega Evolves and proceed to usually break through the aforementioned threats through the combination of Screech + Substitute + STAB Reversal upon mega evolution. Dugtrio is usually able to perform this role despite its paper thin defenses and low Attack due to its great Speed and good STAB coverage. When paired with threats such as OTR Magearna and CM Raikou, Dugtrio can provide the support that no other mon can by getting rid of the checks of its partners.

Drops:

A -> A-
Victini has always struggled to permit itself as a threat due to it usually taking up the teams Red Orb slot, meaning more consistent threats such as Primal Groudon are unable to be run. This wasn't that big of an issue a couple of months ago when mons such as Toxapex and Venusaurite Gliscor were less prevalent, but in todays metagame I find it just a bit more hard to justify using Victini in a teamslot since it can have trouble either wallbreaking without a boost or it being revenge killed by most offensive threats due to its low Speed and abundance of weaknesses.

A- -> B+ / B
Offensive Swords Dance sets struggle to threaten out offensive teams without a Rock Polish boost and defensive sets kinda get outclassed by bth Aggronite Mew or Sablenite Magearna depending on the pupose of Necro-DM for its team. It also struggles with a bit of competition with other Steel-type wallbreakers such as Cobalion and Metagross which can threaten out offense more immediately without needing to rely on a Z-Move to break through certain targets. It also struggles to setup SR vs most bouncers without an SD boost which further limits defensive sets compared to other setters such as Primal Groudon and even Terrakion.

B+ -> B
Zapdos is kind of a relic of the old metagame back when threats such as Pinsirite Magearna and Zygarde were running rampant. Nowadays, it struggles to check the majority of threats such as Lucarionite Zygarde, Terrakion, most offensive Magearna sets, and even stuff like Landorus-T if it is unable to fit HP Ice in its moveslot. It still acts as a good defensive pivot for certain teams and can provide annoyance to opposing walls via the combination of Toxic + its pivoting, but most of the time Zapdos struggles to truly perform its role especially considering its SR weakness coupled with its tendency of being worn down if it is not running a Sablenite via status.

B- -> C
Don't see much purpose of running RockCeus as a support Arceus forme due to it losing to most of the metas most common threats such as Zygarde, Magearna, Kartana, and Landorus-T just to name a few. It also faces heavy competition with other SupportCeus formes like Arceus Fairy and Arceus Ground, leaving little incentive to run it besides checking fringe threats such as Ho-Oh and Pinsirite Entei.

Ok I think I am done for now
 

Chazm

yeet
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok so bee meaning to post some thoughts on the VR as its been quite a while that it hasn't been updated and there are some changes I would like sen to be made especially with OMPL currently going on:

Rises:

A+ -> S
Magearna should sincerely be considered for a rise to the coveted S-Rank at this point as both the potency of all its current viable sets (ie: all the Camel variants, Manectite pivot, defensive Sab or Venu pivot, Shift Gear Pinsirite, even Shift Gear + Calm Mind DD variants) and its overall impact on teambuilding makes it fit alongside the other current S-rank mons in Zyg and Pdon imo. Mag's splashability really cannot be stressed enough given how many roles it can perform while also being able to compress such given roles at the same time. Need a setup sweeper that can break through both stall and offense? Trick Room + Calm Mind Camel Mag is there. Need a defensive pivot that can switch into the most threatening Special attackers in the metagame such as Darkrai, Tapu Lele, and Lunala? Sablenite Magearna is there. Want an offensive pivot that can both switch into threats while forcing opposing threats out at the same time? Manectite Magearna has got your back. My point is, even if Magearna cannot obviously run all these sets at once, the fact that that most of them can be placed on the plethora of teams and consistently perform their respective roles (which is often more then one) attests to how much of an effect Mag has on the current metagame imo.

Here is a brief discussion that I had with a current council member Chazm on the matter:
https://pastebin.com/ijBQVQCh

Also some replays from OMPL demonstrating high quality play of Mag putting in a tone of work:


A- -> A+
Landorus-T has really shown itself to be quite the capable threat right now with its bulky Swords Dance + Stealth Rock Salamencite sets which can usually get up SR against most forms of entry hazard removal especially with the decline in usage of Zapdos. Its good bulk in tandem with its formidable power even when unboosted allows it to tear through most balance teams especially considering how remarkable its STAB coverage is. Coupled with the fact that it can run other useful options such as U-Turn and even a double Dance setup set which can break through offense enables Landorus-T to truly shine in the given metagame. Competition as an offensive Ground-type with Zygarde and Pdon isnt even that apparent considering how well it pairs with the aforementioned threats, forming devastating cores when paired with a Magearna of course.


A- -> A
Both Latiasite and Gyaradosite sets are really good at the given moment, acting as a great defensive pivot for balance teams that can check a slew of attackers such as most Primal Groudon, Buzzwole, certain Kartana sets with a Latiasite and Lunala, Tapu Lele, Ultra Necrozma, NP Mew with a Gyaradosite. Toxic Spikes are also pretty valuable in the current metgame when paired with big threats like Sub Coil Zygarde, Protect DD Zyg-C, and even other tech options such as Sub Terrak and Lunala, where Toxapex is pretty much the only viable user of the move (yes there is Greninja but that really team specific). The mindgames Toxapex can force as well when deciding when it chooses to mega evolve thanks to it also having access to Regen pre-mega also further makes it difficult to properly account for given how its mega stone options either give an immunity to one of its weaknesses or changes its typing entirely, altering what is actually able to break through it. Zygarde still puts a huge strain on it and prevents it from rising any further, but I feel it can fit comfortably alongside the other A-rank threats right now.

B -> B+
Red Orb NP Azelf is a terrific wallbreaker thanks to its great power and Speed in conjunction with how potent its STAB coverage alongside coverage options such as Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, and Shadow Ball makes it extremely hard to properly counter. It can usually force out many common defensive threats such as Magearna, non Gyaradosite-Toxapex, Arceus-Fairy, and Mew and proceed to use them as setup fodder, usually sweeping teams that do not have a means of offensively checking it which can be difficult given its great Speed tier. It does use up the teams Red Orb slot meaning it cant be paired with other wallbreakers such as Victini or Primal Groudon which is unfortunate, but I still feel Azelf fits itself on a number of teams to be worth considering a raise.


B- -> B / B+
I feel Darkrai has proven itself to be quite a capable sweeper in the given metagame with either its Blastoisnite and Diancite sets where the former lets it break through pretty much everything at +2 with Dark Pulse while the ladder enables it to check offense rather well due to its incredible Speed. The decline of Altarianite / Pinsirite Zyg usage in favor of Lucarionite also further helps Dakrai sweep many more games due to it not facing the main form to offensively check it. Coverage in Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb and Thunder also enables it to break through checks such as Magearna, Blissey, Arceus Fairy and Ho-Oh, while other utility options like Taunt and Substitute enables it to wallbreak certain walls even further. The presence of Magearna severly hinders it, but I still feel B- does not accurately represent Darkrai's given position especially considering how well its been performing in OMPL.

C -> B-
Lucarionite Mamoswine is quite the decent wallbreaker thanks to a great unresisted STAB combo that only gets stopped by Golissopod and Latiasite Toxapex. The ability to set up Stealth Rocks sort of reliably versus most Sablenite users means it can fit well on certain bulky offensive teans that need a means of breaking through common balance cores such as Bliss + Mag and Zap + Skarm + Bliss. Its below average Speed in tandem with a poor defensive typing + stats really limits it, but besides that I feel a small rise for Mamo is warranted at the current moment.

UR -> B-
I initially thought Zeraora would have been better but alas our little Electric friend hasn't really been performing as well as I thought it would. Even though it has a great speed tier which lets it offensively check even the fastest of threats such as Diancite Tapu Lele and Metagrossite Kartana, it still fails to properly break through most walls in the current metagame such as defensive Primal Groudon, Sablenite Magearna, and Gliscor, as they all require a significant amount of chip to be beaten by Zera. Sets such as Pinsirite and Glalitite perform well given their great STAB combo, while sets such as Lopunnite enable it get a better offensive typing and gives it a better STAB move to spam, however all of the aforementioned sets struggle to deal consistent damage given how bulky certain defensive threats can be, while Zeraoara's meager defenses means it can be checked by most priority users as well. I still need to test setup boosting sets with Bulk Up and see how that performs versus defensive teams but as for now I feel B- is a good place to start, although I can see a potential rise in the future.

UR -> C (Altarianite, Salamencite)
Surprised not to see this ranked yet, Noivern is a pretty simple threat that just spams -Ate Boomburst and break down most teams that dont have a Blissey or Magearna on them (hence why its being nommed low). Its good coverage lets it still break through certain walls and it can also be annoying with Taunt and U-Turn, but yeh its a pretty cool wallbreaker which is especially good thanks to its already good Speed tier pre-mega evolving.

UR -> C (Lopunnite)
Dugtrio has recently been popping up thanks to its ability to trap key threats such as Blissey, Magearna, non-Latiasite Toxapex, and Primal Groudon before it Mega Evolves and proceed to usually break through the aforementioned threats through the combination of Screech + Substitute + STAB Reversal upon mega evolution. Dugtrio is usually able to perform this role despite its paper thin defenses and low Attack due to its great Speed and good STAB coverage. When paired with threats such as OTR Magearna and CM Raikou, Dugtrio can provide the support that no other mon can by getting rid of the checks of its partners.

Drops:

A -> A-
Victini has always struggled to permit itself as a threat due to it usually taking up the teams Red Orb slot, meaning more consistent threats such as Primal Groudon are unable to be run. This wasn't that big of an issue a couple of months ago when mons such as Toxapex and Venusaurite Gliscor were less prevalent, but in todays metagame I find it just a bit more hard to justify using Victini in a teamslot since it can have trouble either wallbreaking without a boost or it being revenge killed by most offensive threats due to its low Speed and abundance of weaknesses.

A- -> B+ / B
Offensive Swords Dance sets struggle to threaten out offensive teams without a Rock Polish boost and defensive sets kinda get outclassed by bth Aggronite Mew or Sablenite Magearna depending on the pupose of Necro-DM for its team. It also struggles with a bit of competition with other Steel-type wallbreakers such as Cobalion and Metagross which can threaten out offense more immediately without needing to rely on a Z-Move to break through certain targets. It also struggles to setup SR vs most bouncers without an SD boost which further limits defensive sets compared to other setters such as Primal Groudon and even Terrakion.

B+ -> B
Zapdos is kind of a relic of the old metagame back when threats such as Pinsirite Magearna and Zygarde were running rampant. Nowadays, it struggles to check the majority of threats such as Lucarionite Zygarde, Terrakion, most offensive Magearna sets, and even stuff like Landorus-T if it is unable to fit HP Ice in its moveslot. It still acts as a good defensive pivot for certain teams and can provide annoyance to opposing walls via the combination of Toxic + its pivoting, but most of the time Zapdos struggles to truly perform its role especially considering its SR weakness coupled with its tendency of being worn down if it is not running a Sablenite via status.

B- -> C
Don't see much purpose of running RockCeus as a support Arceus forme due to it losing to most of the metas most common threats such as Zygarde, Magearna, Kartana, and Landorus-T just to name a few. It also faces heavy competition with other SupportCeus formes like Arceus Fairy and Arceus Ground, leaving little incentive to run it besides checking fringe threats such as Ho-Oh and Pinsirite Entei.

Ok I think I am done for now
Alright, I want to make a few replies to this:

Darkrai: B+ is imo, a joke. This mon is an A rank threat.

Darkrai, whilst being walled by the likes of Magearna, is no joke versus any other sort of team. Blastoisinite is a ridiculously powerful wallbreaker, 2HKOing every 252 HP / 0 SpD neutral Arceus with its main stab unboosted. That level of power is on par with the likes of Terrakion! And whilst you may be questioning why I would be rating it so high over Terrakion, the main benefit of running Blastoisinite Darkrai is the amount of Ghosts that you can abuse. The problem with Terrakion at the moment is that it finds it difficult to come in without dedicated VoltTurn support, where as Darkrai does not need its bulk to try and muscle through some of its checks - the only ones relevant that require that are Ho-oh, which is taken out by Diancite Thunder.

One of the main reasons I think Darkrai is so good (and by consequence, the following Pokemon) is because of Tapu Lele's ability to pressure Magearna and carve a path for Darkrai to blaze through. Nature's Madness is fairly crippling for a mon with no reliable recovery, and with the Psychic Terrain support that remains, Darkrai can go guns blazing without having to worry about -atespeed even touching it. However, certain new checks such as Altarianite Landorus-Therian and Sablenite Buzzwole have started popping up, and faster mons can also cause issues, such as Terrakion. Through this reasoning, I think Darkrai's ability to pressure common balances heavily lands it an A rank, whilst Tapu Lele's newfound role and ability to carve a hole in the opposing team give it the rank of B+ at least, imo.

NDM I can see dropping to B+, but with the new era of Manectite Mew balances, DM has less of a problem trying to muscle through current teams as its checks are not dedicated toward it. However, I do find that it is a situational mon at best when compared to the likes of Magearna.

Zapdos has certainly improved over the last months, imo. Sablenite consistently walls the two most common Stealth Rock leads on offense - Landorus-Therian and Metagross, whilst its solid coverage makes it particularly hard to deal with the following blow, without potentially chipping mons like Primal Groudon, opening a path for the opposing Magearna or Entei to clean. It's certainly not the pivot it used to be, but definitely a mon to watch out for in the current metagame. Keep B+.

I feel as if you might be misunderstanding Arceus-Rock's goal. Sure, it might be the worst case of Cameruptite Magearna bait in a long while, but the pure compression it provides with the likes of a good Flying-resist and Fire-resist is greatly appreciated on teams that are weak to threats like Raikou and Victini. Infact it can even run Grass Knot for its common Ground switchins, and most of them are crippled by Will-o-wisp. Unlike some Arceus formes, this one actually has a good, defined niche and should keep its B- rank.

Will post my own advise on VR later, bop
 
I certainly do hope that we can get the VR updated soon, but for now, I’ll like to go over some noms that Funbot made that I happen to disagree with.

While I do not disagree with Darkrai rising, I do disagree with how little it’s being raised. I’m sure people using Darkrai have noticed, but Darkrai is hard to check defensively. The most reliable defensive check I can think of is Sablenite Buzzwole, but the problem is, Sablenite Buzzwole, while good, isn’t enough to just stop Darkrai from clicking Dark Pulse or coverage move and murdering what’s in front of it. It’s much easier to offensively check it, by Altarianite -atespeed, and similar strategies. While yes, the -ate stones have declined in usage, I’ll still argue that every good team must be able to account for those -ate user, and an -ate speeder is still very desirable in this current meta. I say Darkrai deserves A- at the very least, taking in account how easy it is to offensively check compared to defensively checking it.
Arceus-Rock is a neat Flying resist that also has the niche of being capable of handling Entei, which is much harder than it seems. Afaik, the only way for Entei to beat Arceus-Rock is to run Stomping Tantrum, and ew, Stomping Tantrum. There’s also the fact that while Arceus-Rock does indeed compete for the role of supportceus, Arceus-Ground hasn’t really been a supportceus in recent times, and Arceus-Rock checks different threats than Arceus-Fairy, which means it’s not completely outclassed as a supportceus option. While it does suffer from current metagame trends, it also has enough niches in this current meta that I firmly disagree with a drop for Arceus-Rock
Other noms that I disagree with, but don’t really have a lot to say for it:
Zapdos to B: no, i think it should stay, since it has seen considerable good OMPL success, and it has also seen a resurgence in recent times. It might be a relic of the past, but it’s a damn good one right now.
Necrozma-DM to B+: no, I think it should stay, since as mentioned above, specific checks to Dusk Mane are currently nonexistant, and Dusk Mane finds it easier to muscle through teams than it did in the past. While it’s true that its defensive set is outclassed no matter how you view it, I feel like that was a natural result of the meta. Dusk Mane’s still a good cleaner in this current meta.
 
check compendium






Magearna @ Cameruptite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature / Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk OR 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Flash Cannon / Shadow Ball / Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Focus Blast
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split / Trick Room
View attachment 129130View attachment 129133View attachment 129134View attachment 129137View attachment 129139View attachment 129143View attachment 129147View attachment 129154View attachment 129159View attachment 129160View attachment 129172


Magearna @ Manectite / Alakazite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split
View attachment 129130View attachment 129133View attachment 129137View attachment 129139View attachment 129143View attachment 129144View attachment 129147View attachment 129154View attachment 129160View attachment 129172


Magearna @ Pinsirite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Shift Gear
- Pain Split
- Heal Bell / Substitute / Iron Defense / Light Screen
View attachment 129136View attachment 129148View attachment 129157View attachment 129162View attachment 129169View attachment 129172View attachment 129192


Zygarde @ Lucarionite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 200 Atk / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute / Pain Split / Glare
- Dragon Tail
- Dragon Dance / Coil
View attachment 129131View attachment 129142View attachment 129152View attachment 129154View attachment 129159View attachment 129164View attachment 129163View attachment 129192




Terrakion @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Taunt / Substitute
View attachment 129131View attachment 129133View attachment 129150View attachment 129152View attachment 129153View attachment 129159View attachment 129160View attachment 129161View attachment 129164View attachment 129192


Entei @ Altarianite / Pinsirite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge / Stomping Tantrum
- Frustration / Howl
View attachment 129130View attachment 129131View attachment 129132View attachment 129136View attachment 129144View attachment 129146View attachment 129154View attachment 129156View attachment 129157View attachment 129169


Mew @ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock / Psychic / Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot / Calm Mind
- Roost
View attachment 129134View attachment 129146View attachment 129151View attachment 129163View attachment 129162View attachment 129175View attachment 129169View attachment 129187View attachment 129192View attachment 129195


Darkrai @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb
- Taunt / Substitute / Thunder / Ice Beam
View attachment 129146View attachment 129152View attachment 129159View attachment 129160View attachment 129169View attachment 129187View attachment 129192View attachment 129195View attachment 129164View attachment 129177View attachment 129183








Landorus-Therian @ Salamencite / Altarianite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs 88 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe OR 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Frustration
- Swords Dance
- Smack Down / Rock Polish / Explosion
View attachment 129136View attachment 129140View attachment 129146View attachment 129147View attachment 129148View attachment 129161View attachment 129162View attachment 129163View attachment 129169View attachment 129185


Lunala @ Lunalium Z
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Substitute / Roost
View attachment 129146View attachment 129163View attachment 129187View attachment 129195View attachment 129237View attachment 129240










Ho-Oh @ Choice Band
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Earthquake
- Toxic
View attachment 129136View attachment 129148View attachment 129150View attachment 129149View attachment 129156View attachment 129157View attachment 129169View attachment 129178


Tapu Lele @ Diancite
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind / Psyshock
- Focus Blast / Shadow Ball / HP Fire / Taunt
View attachment 129131View attachment 129134View attachment 129140View attachment 129146View attachment 129162View attachment 129171View attachment 129169View attachment 129185View attachment 129237


Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Geomancy
- Thunder / Ingrain
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ground / Rest
View attachment 129130View attachment 129131View attachment 129134View attachment 129140View attachment 129146View attachment 129147View attachment 129159View attachment 129169View attachment 129240


Manaphy @ Absolite
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Ice Beam / Grass Knot
- Shadow Ball / Ice Beam
View attachment 129130View attachment 129137View attachment 129144View attachment 129146View attachment 129161View attachment 129171View attachment 129172View attachment 129184View attachment 129237






Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe OR 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 Spe
Impish / Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Coil / Dragon Dance
- Substitute / Rest
- Dragon Tail / Protect
View attachment 129131View attachment 129143View attachment 129152View attachment 129154View attachment 129155View attachment 129156View attachment 129159View attachment 129163View attachment 129164View attachment 129181View attachment 129186View attachment 129192View attachment 129195






Genesect @ Altarianite
Ability: Download
EVs 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shift Gear
- Blaze Kick
- Extreme Speed
- Return / Explosion
View attachment 129130View attachment 129172View attachment 129146View attachment 129136View attachment 129134View attachment 129131View attachment 129157View attachment 129160View attachment 129169


I'd be happy to see explanations for what each EV spread does, unless they are all taken from the usage stats.
By the way, you might want to edit your Darkrai's set because it has a Jolly nature.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top