Suspect Mix and Mega Suspect #17: Afraid (Gengar)

[zastra]

​

SUSPECT REASONING

Gengar has been restricted from Mix and Mega since SS. However, the metagame has changed significantly since then. Following extensive support in the most recent tiering survey, the council has voted to retest Gengar and determine whether it's still too much for the current metagame.

At the time of its restriction, Gengar was considered one of the tier's most threatening special attackers. Its combination of excellent Special Attack, powerful Ghost and Poison STAB moves, and a typing resistant to Pixilate Extreme Speed made it extremely difficult to handle offensively. It could overwhelm defensive cores with its coverage while threatening to snowball games through Nasty Plot, making it a difficult Pokemon to answer consistently.

However, today's metagame is very different. The rise of specially defensive staples, particularly Regenerator ones, such as Dragalgite Magearna and Ting-Lu has given teams far sturdier answers to Gengar than were available previously. Other defensive Pokemon like Clodsire, specially defensive Corviknight, Blissey, and Ho-Oh also match up well against it, leaving Gengar with no shortage of defensive answers.

At the same time, Gengar's own shortcomings have become much more apparent. Its poor bulk means, theoretically, it rarely gets free opportunities to switch in and set up with Nasty Plot. Its Speed tier isn't particularly impressive either, with Lucarionite barely crossing the 130 mark and Zygardite falling short of even that. Faster offensive threats such as Zamazenta, Urshifu-R, Barraskewda, Deoxys-Speed, Archaludon in Rain, Dragapult, Hisuian Electrode, Greninja, etc. all force it out or revenge kill it with ease, while slower Pokemon like Entei, Raging Bolt, and Hisuian Samurott can still pick it off through priority such as Dragonize Extreme Speed, Thunderclap, and Sucker Punch. Diancite can hypothetically mitigate the Speed issues, but the resulting loss in power makes Gengar a far less threatening breaker.

With these developments in mind, we believe the current metagame provides enough natural counterplay to justify giving Gengar a shot. Whether those changes are enough for it to remain balanced is now up to the playerbase to decide.

SUSPECT REQUIREMENTS

The instructions to participate in this retest are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in SV Mix and Mega before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W-L does not count for this—the account you use must never have played Mix and Mega before the test, period)
  • You can use /rank to check if your alt is allowed to get requirements. Whenever in doubt, type /rank and it will tell confirm if you are eligible or not
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact dhelmise, Giagantic, or any other OM Staff member
• If you have any questions about the process or suspect element, feel free to PM me or QT

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2850 (with a B value of 5). The deadline for getting requirements will be <t:1785729600:f>

Voting:
Once the suspect period is over, everyone who has obtained reqs will be tagged. The post will contain the link for blind voting. For now, follow the above "Suspect Requirements" subheading to ensure that you have achieved requirements and linked your account.

A simple-majority of 50%+1 unrestrict votes is required to unrestrict Gengar in Mix and Mega!

TL;DR:
- Gengar is permitted on the suspect Ladder
- The COIL value is 2850
- You must ladder on a newly-created alt of any name
- You must link your suspect alt with your smogon account using /linksmogon
- The suspect test will conclude at <t:1785729600:f>

 

[Time2Bonk]

Sloppy reqs run from me but honestly I'll take it since I've already laddered far too much on here, used a couple different teams throughout that I will not share cause I'm too lazy to build enough teams & I'm still in seasonal

As for Gengar I managed to encounter it an entire one match (Which I lost cause I misplayed vs Sub Delphoxite and let it set up freely), and as such a lot of what I'll be saying is pure speculation. Looking at Gengar in comparison to the other offensive ghosts in the tier (Spectrier, Pult, Ghostceus, Lunala) it has a weaker speed tier (Lunala & Ghostceus are technically slower since they're stoneless but have the bulk/agility to offset that), but in tradeoff it gets access to both good coverage options, Nasty Plot, and a typing that is innately resistant to Pixispeed.

Gut feeling honestly says that it were to be unbanned not much would change, it'd play kind of similarly to how Iron Moth plays right now as a snowbally Special Breaker that doesn't get forced out by Pixispeed. I'm not a huge believer in Lucarionite being problematic as 399 is quite an unfortunate speed tier that loses out to Urshifu, I think Eelektrossite or Delphoxite will be the main sets to look out for instead as they're also able to potentially use stuff like Ting-Lu as setup fodder. The only concern I really have is it getting access to Encore, as that move is hella nasty on anything fast with lots of immunities/resistances, but that also gives it pretty huge 4MSS. Overall though I'm leaning unban because I don't think it'll outshine any of the other Ghost-types or Iron Moth atm, but if I get to actually see it in the hands of good players or hear good arguments I'm down to change my mind.

 

[zastra]

Alright got reqs. What I said in the OP still stands, but to add to those points, I think Gengar is a very mediocre pokemon. First of all, picking a stone for this mon is incredibly awkward because it's not particularly good at anything it does. Secondly it faces heavy competition from offensive Pecharunt (who's a very nice pick on offense because of its defensive profile and moveset) and other, typically faster, special demons--Deoxys, Dragapult, Moth, etc. On a good day maybe you'll be able to click NP and kill a thing or 2 or maybe trade with DBond but it's really nothing special. Very slow and frail, not broken by any stretch of the imagination. I'll be voting unrestrict.

That said, I'd still encourage people to use Gengar. Maybe you'll find a tech that people have been missing so far. I'll post a few teams below for you to try cuz the ladder's not using the mon enough


(same team but with moon over zama and a slightly diff gar set)

 

[sleepyfwog]

I got reqs, got a horrible record cause zastra was packing me up. Gengar not is broken, as it's got immense frailty and a decent speed stat but one that still lets many pokemon outspeed it.
Eelektrossite seems cool (and admittedly gives nice offensive bonuses), but that physical frailty means that ground resistance is seldom able to finesse more setup opportunities as it often dies to neutral physical hits and 140 base speed is quite reasonable for teams to outspeed. Not only that, Eel sets struggle with a lack of power compared to Luc/Zyg sets (who are even slower and Zygardite is so frail it dies to resisted espeed). Dbond cuts into Gengar's moveslots and leaves it restrained to just Stabs, which can leave it unable to muscle through walls alone.

Another thing I find quite interesting is how the stones that give it the speed to harder to revenge kill also give it no defense, leaving it with pitiful 60/60 physical bulk.

252+ Atk Altarianite Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Audinite Spectrier: 214-253 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Altarianite Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eelektrossite Gengar: 161-190 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This makes Gengar just as resistant to pixispeed as naturally bulky sweepers are, while also flat out dying to feral/pins espeed and being more vulnerable to attacks from defensive pokes and faster mons.

The only time I feared Gengar was when the power boost from Zygardite made it quite threatening, but that was easily revenged with a mediocre speed tier and horrible 60/30/65 bulk.
Definitely an unrestrict.

 

[wegmen77]

Got reqs trying to use gengar as much as possible. All I gotta say is... thank arceus that's over. This guy is not just underwhelming, he's kinda fraudulent. Probably a B-tier mon at best, but there's a bit more to the story than that.

Gengar is a casualty of the metagame. Zygardite's presence in the meta necessitates either a strong special wall capable of taking hits from pult/deo or a strong priority user on every single team. What does gengar hate? Both of those. Dragalgite was the nail in the coffin for gengar, as now every special wall can pivot in and out with impunity.

Gengar also suffers from 4MSS. Encore is its most potent tool, and probably the key to any future viability, but to use encore it has to drop 1.the ability to boost past walls, 2.the ability to hit ho-oh, or 3.the ability to hit garg/ting-lu. All of these are non-starters for a breaker imo. Plus I detest relying on focus blast. Ask my 9 losses lol.

As for the best set, it's probably something like eelek with encore+np+2 attacks. It does have a genuine niche here over competitors like iron moth with the ability to boost and encore. Zygardite is funny, since you exactly hit the 255 bst cap, but being maybe the 7th best Zygardite user just ain't it. You could use one of the fairy stones and larp as spectrier, but like... just use spectrier.

Ultimately, the meta has evolved in ways that are very hostile to gengar. It falls in line with many other frail breakers, but it fails to find a super viable niche for itself. That said, there probably is a team that makes it succeed. I certainly couldn't build one though :/

 

[QT]

Some of you might say, "wow QT, that's a terrible run," but to you I say - unlike everyone else here, I was actually using Gengar in every one of those games.

And the takeaway is... he's fine. Zygardite is by far the best set, but Diancite (especially with dbond) and Delphoxite aren't useless. He can go on some balance teams and psurge HO as a niche pick, and he functions. I've definitely run worse pokemon, and he actually does things, at least when I don't miss focus blast into getting crit by magma storm. But he's not at all broken, especially without pidge as an option. I think Zygardite is a B to B- rank set, every other set belongs somewhere in C tier, combine them all together and he's still B to B-. Easy free vote.

 

[Kapwing]

Got the necessary reqs with this team:
ZamaPult BO - [ / ] (I had originally had Ho-Oh in the zamapult BO team but replaced it with milotic)
I was the guy who originally made the post regarding why gengar should be suspect tested, admittedly not too well, so this post will show my better knowledge regarding why gengar should be suspect tested

Offensively

1. He's replaceable offensively, out of all of these pokemon, majority if not all of them are more than capable of slotting in teams where gengar would be on
Dragapult @ Zygardite - Faster, Better Coveragea, and is stronger
Lunala - Stronger Stab Option (any non-Lucarionite / Glimmoranite set), Bulkier, and can be used more than just offensively
Deoxys-Speed @ Zygardite - Faster, and Better coverage
Iron-Moth @ Chimechite / Lucarionite / Eelektrossite / Whatever else - More Set Diversity, Better Stab in Fiery Dance (which threatens mag along with boosts spa), and stronger
Pecharunt - Specifically with Diancite, depending on the Gengar set, Pecharunt can be a bulkier, faster version of Gengar with a better Poison STAB in Malignant Chain, recovery, and pivoting with Parting Shot. And even without Diancite, it's still the physical wall of the metagame.
Ghostceus - Bulkier, Judgement being stronger than Shadow ball, and provides the team with a consistent hit taker that can also wisp targets
Spectrier @ Lucarionite / Meganiumite / Audinite - Faster and Stronger, With Meganiumite / Audinite it also has a secondary typing and with Audinite it can be used as a decent hit taker while also being a set up sweeper with draining kiss as "recovery"

Mega Stone issues

None of the mega stones he uses fully covers him
Eelektrossite - Potential man personified, it can snowball out of control but trying to do it is the issue itself
Delphoxite - Levitate, Not terrible seemingly but it's the fact that it's the pokemon's fault and not the item itself
Lucarionite - Second strongest Mega stone gengar can run but its power doesn't translate to its coverage while zygardite does, however has far better bulk compared to it but it's still gengar
Zygardite - Strongest mega stone gengar can run but has the drawback of low speed for an offensive pokemon along with a lessened but still significant problem with your Altarianitespeed resistance not mattering

Damage Calculations

252+ Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 238-281 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 233-274 (89.2 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 261-307 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 201-237 (77 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 238-281 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Diancite - the Fastest mega stone you can run but your Altarianitespeed resistance no longer matters

Damage Calculations

252+ Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 328-387 (125.6 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 273-322 (104.5 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 293-345 (112.2 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 253-298 (96.9 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 273-322 (104.5 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4MSS

I've personally seen a bunch of moves used on gengar, now whether or not all of them are entirely viable on one set or even just gengar in general is besides the point but alot of the time they generally end up lacking a move necessary to beat a part of the metagame or providing utility to its team

Moves

Shadow Ball, Sludge Wave, Encore, Nasty Plot, Dazzling Gleam, Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Destiny Bond

"Moves"

Curse, Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, Toxic, Thunder Wave, Toxic Spikes, Energy Ball

However, the issue with all of those moves is that gengar needs most of them to some extent, some more, some less, however, largely the damage moves (plus nasty plot)

Focus Blast

Hits Several chimechite/rusted sword users along with some of the mons who also share a fairy weakness (probably expendable to not beat but some teams need it)
@Chimechite

Dazzling Gleam

Hits most of the fairy weak pokemon that all have a chance of either setting up on you or killing you outright
@ Feraligite @Barbaracite

Nasty Plot

You can work without nasty plot although not being able to 2 shot even the 3 most common special walls in the metagame
@
Dragalgite

DragMag Calcs

+2 252 SpA Zygardite Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD : 256-303 (70.5 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Lucarionite Adaptability Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD : 230-272 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Eelektrossite: Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD : 177-208 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Diancite Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD : 202-238 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO+2 252 SpA Delphoxite Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD : 189-223 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ho-Oh Calcs

+2 252 SpA Delphoxite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 260-306 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Diancite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD 278-328 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Lucarionite Adaptability Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 250-296 (60 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Zygardite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 350-414 (84.1 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Eelektrossite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 242-286 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

@ :Dragalgite

Drag-Lu calcs

+2 252 SpA Lucarionite Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 378-446 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Delphoxite Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 416-490 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Diancite Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 442-522 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Zygardite Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 564-664 (109.7 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Eelektrossite Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 388-458 (75.4 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Shadow Ball

without Shadow ball you lack the super effective damage to not only hit ghost-weak mons

along with just simply being able to hit ghost-neutral mons with your primary stab

Sludge Wave

Without Sludge Wave, you don't hit the poison weaks
////@Altarianite @Meganiumite
and of course, just like shadow ball you don't hit your poison-neutrals with your stab

Other Moves

Depending on what you run on gengar, you're either lacking the utility in stuff like encore or destiny bond or lacking the surprise factor in something like curse or Will-o-Wisp

Basically gengar aint allat, Unrestrict​

 

[damflame 3]

Gengar is fine, nothing broken

 

[Ducky]

finally got reqs, used gar a bit and played against it a bit. seems fine, gonna vote to unrestrict

 

[Pomellow]

got reqs even though i’m washed as hell !!!! ngl the first 10ish matches were me just getting bodied by everyone as i was trying to put together a team that didn’t fold to every new threat. ----- (it’s pretty weird but like whatever). uhhh about gengar? they seem mid.

 

[Kirby Ronin]

I finally finished the Gengar suspect test requirements, and I have quite mixed feelings about the Pokémon and its performance in the tier; 80% of my games were played with teams from this thread—modified to my liking—and, well, Gengar certainly gives people plenty to talk about.

Gengar's Theorem

Gengar Zygardite

The Mega with the highest raw damage output (reaching over 1200 Special Attack with just a single Nasty Plot boost) is an incredible wallbreaker capable of demolishing almost any Pokémon in the tier. However, it is held back by paper-thin defenses, limited coverage options that lead to "four-move slot syndrome", and the fact that if it fails to secure a KO for any reason, it will likely go down regardless of what hits it; 90% of the time it will fall in battle, and often it gets taken out before it can even do anything useful.

Gengar Eelektrossite

Personally, this is the Mega Evolution I most like for Gengar, yet it still has significant shortcomings; with 60 HP and 60 Defense, it is vulnerable to priority moves. Even when using it with screens (based on a team by Zastra mentioned above in this thread), the issue remains that it loses if it cannot set up sufficiently. If you opt for a Eeleevate speed-oriented build, you deal very little damage without the Nasty Plot boost; if you choose a Eeleevate Special Attack-focused one, it ends up being too slow, despite having a decent base Speed. Its role ultimately becomes that of a late-game cleaner: sweeping the opponent only after the rest of the team has worn down their defensive answers and chipped away at their health (or with the help of entry hazards like Spikes or Stealth Rock).
However, if the job is done, almost any other pokémon could finish it, think of Raging Bolt, Entei, Dragonite, Great Tusk or Deoxys-S. These attackers offer far more versatility without relying on a snowball effect or a prior Setup phase to be truly effective

Gengar Delphoxite

I’m not entirely sold on this Mega Evolution (which could be considered an improved version of the Eelektrossite). Among the Mega Evolutions mentioned so far, it boasts the second-highest Special Attack (175 base) and the best Speed seen to date (140 base), making it a superior Mega that doesn't rely entirely on a Nasty Plot setup. While Levitate—even as an inferior version of "Eeleevate"—remains a solid Ability for Gengar, it is practically useless here (a point I’ll address later in the counters section). So, if it has everything going for it and resolves the Speed and Special damage issues found in the other two Mega Evolutions, what’s the catch? Fragility. Plus, unlike with the Eelektrossite, you can't simply boost stats via Snowball; you have to setup manually, with no way to outpace the format's fastest, most dangerous Pokémon. All in all, it occupies a rather odd niche.

Gengar Lucarionite

I’ve never actually used this Mega Evolution myself, though I’ve faced it a few times in mirror matches, and I’m genuinely a bit disappointed. Not only does it lose the 1v1 against other Gengars (assuming they aren't holding Zygardite) —and while Adaptability makes its STAB moves hit incredibly hard, it deals very little damage without setup if it isn't using STAB—but it also has the lowest Special Attack of the aforementioned Megas. Its Speed is merely average; and although it compensates with better defenses and incredibly powerful STAB moves, it ultimately falls short of being a standout Mega. It feels like a Mega that tries to do too much in theory but doesn't quite deliver as much as it should in practice.

While there are other Mega Stones that could be equipped, I feel these are the only ones worth using. I once tried Hawluchanite to get 100% accuracy on Focus Blast, but the base 130 Sp. Atk and base 110 Speed make it completely unviable. I also tested Diancite —with its base 190 Sp. Atk and base 170 Speed—which is incredible until you look at the base 60 HP, 20 Def, and 35 Sp. Def; it’s impossible to tank any priority moves, which are abundant in this tier. So, to sum up the "Gengar Theorem": if I want raw damage without much setup, I run Zygardite but sacrifice speed; if I want speed, I can run Eleektrosite or Delphoxite, but I lack effective damage output and the ability to snowball; and if I use Lucarionite, I end up not excelling in any area—and well, that’s a problem that’s almost impossible to fix.

Gengar competition

I'm doing this section because while playing Suspect, talking with friends, they pointed out several mons that were much more consistent than Gengar. When I was testing them, the difference was huge.

Dragapult

Dragapult not only surpasses Gengar in stats—a major advantage in itself—but it also executes Gengar's typical sets far more effectively without needing setup; indeed, a Zygardite Dragapult functions as a superior Mega compared to any of the previously mentioned Gengar sets. It also has better coverage (Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, and U-Turn for pivoting) and greater versatility, allowing for physical attacker sets with Altarianite (the Dragon/Fairy typing is OP), Dual Screen support with Light Clay, or team utility via Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave. It performs Gengar's role better while offering a surprise factor: if it turns out to be a physical attacker and you’ve left your special tank out to face it, well, that was that tank's last turn.

Lunala

Personally, I really like Lunala; it might sound strange to say it can do a better job than Gengar, but here are the facts: having Shadow Shield as an ability is incredible because it lets you survive a hit from almost anything (unboosted) and then secure a KO. It might not have the highest base Speed, but given its bulk, that isn't strictly necessary—and if speed is needed, you have access to Agility or Trick Room to suit any playstyle. Power Herb + Meteor Beam sets deal massive damage to every Pokémon in the tier, and thanks to its natural bulk and Shadow Shield, it can stay in the game for several turns; you can even use Moonlight to recover HP and reactivate Shadow Shield if needed. Access to moves like Calm Mind, Moongeist Beam (which is a thousand times better than Shadow Ball), Psyshock (great for hitting special walls that aren't Dark-types), Moonblast, and Focus Blast—along with other coverage and support options—gives Lunala solid consistency without needing a Mega Stone. Even though I personally haven't used it much, if at all, it is a very interesting Pokémon.

Spectrier

I had reservations about including this Pokémon, but in the early matches of my second run to meet the requirements, it was the one that secured victories against the tier's less experienced opponents. While I could discuss sets involving Zygardite, Glimmoranite, etc., I’ll focus on the Manectite set (special thanks to Blue Ronin; even though she is no longer around, their teams still offer elements I really enjoy experimenting with). Intimidate ensures you can tank an Extreme Speed hit from almost any user even at +1—since Mega Evolving neutralizes the attack boost. You also start with solid base bulk and speed. It shares the same coverage issues as Gengar, but it boasts many support tools like Nasty Plot, Will-O-Wisp, Substitute, or even less common moves like Taunt to counter Recover/stall—along with Shadow Ball and Draining Kiss for coverage. The ability to delay Mega Evolving to first capitalize on a Special Attack boost from its Grim Neigh ability makes it quite interesting; combined with good bulk—and the option to run "meme" sets featuring WoW, Calm Mind, Pain Split, and Shadow Ball/Draining Kiss—it’s a versatile niche Pokémon.

Iron Moth

It is a vastly superior user of the Eelektrossite compared to Gengar; not only does it utilize Eeleevate much better by negating its 4x weakness to Ground-type moves, but the Fiery Dance + Eeleevate combo also offers a 50% chance to boost Special Attack by +2 upon securing a KO. This creates an insane snowball effect, given the lack of significant Fire-type resistances outside of specific Pokémon, such as Dragon types (which Iron Moth can hit with Dazzling Gleam) or Primarina (vulnerable to Sludge Wave). Even a Milotic holding Chimechite (despite its massive Special Defense) doesn't want to tank a STAB Fiery Dance, especially once the snowball effect has gained momentum. The power gap between Gengar and Iron Moth goes beyond mere coverage; Iron Moth doesn't need to waste a moveslot and a turn setting up with Nasty Plot to deal massive, escalating damage—it effectively combines the damage output of Eelektrossite Gengar with the base Special Attack stat of Delphoxite Gengar.

Flutter Mane

Here is another Pokémon I hesitated to include, but I genuinely feel it earns its spot. Like Lunala, it cannot hold a Mega Stone, but access to Booster Energy opens up a multitude of set possibilities for Flutter Mane. Although it is just as frail as Mega Gengar, the Booster ensures you always outspeed the opponent; thanks to its incredible Special Defense (despite its low HP), it can tank a special hit. Furthermore, the wide range of coverage moves available—such as Shadow Ball, Moonblast, Thunderbolt, Power Gem, and Psyshock—makes it worth a try. Just as there are Rain-themed teams featuring Politoed and Swampert, Flutter Mane can be paired with a Charizard holding Charizardite Y to activate the sun, freeing up its item slot for something other than Booster Energy; it is certainly an interesting Pokémon to try out.

The list could go on and on—and that’s just considering Pokémon that share types with Gengar (with Arceus-Ghost and Pecharunt being the most notable examples). But even if we expand the scope to include Pokémon that don't share the same typing, the difference is massive. We have access to Deoxys-S running Psycho Boost and Superpower; Raging Bolt, which deals devastating damage with Thunderclap; and the ability to equip a myriad of Mega Stones—such as Raichunite X to use alongside Rising Voltage. There are also offensive Magearna sets featuring Shift Gear for speed boosts and virtually any damage-enhancing Mega Stone, taking advantage of its access to BoltBeam, recovery via Draining Kiss, Calm Mind, and other tools. I might be overlooking another key Pokémon, but the bottom line is that many others can perform the job better, with greater consistency and versatility.

Counters & Checks

Ting-Lu

252+ SpA Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD : 310-366 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 20 Def : 302-356 (115.7 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As the damage calculations above show, Gengar fares terribly against Ting-Lu; not only does the strongest Gengar variant (Modest + Zygardite) fail to secure a KO with Focus Blast, but even the bulkiest Gengar build (Lucarionite with 20 Defense EVs—the spread used for "Eeleevate Speed" Gengar) can survive a Payback from a 0 Attack Ting-Lu. You not only need to be at +2 from Nasty Plot, but you also need the luck to land that Focus Blast, avoiding a miss right when you need the hit the most.

Magearna

+2 252+ SpA Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD : 256-303 (70.5 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 99-117 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I consider this case to be significantly more serious: not only does a +2 Modest Gengar Zygardite fail to OHKO Magearna with Shadow Ball, but on Magearna's turn, it can either paralyze you with Thunder Wave, a major issue for Gengar, as I’ve discussed at this post or use Volt Switch. Even against the bulkiest Gengar variant (running Lucarionite), a minimum-roll Volt Switch deals enough damage that any Pokémon switching in properly (or simply outspeeding you) can effortlessly secure the KO.

Extreme Speed / priority users

In this section, I’ll list all priority moves along with the Pokémon that use them; while I prioritize Extreme Speed, there are many dangerous priority moves for Gengar to contend with, such as Thunderclap, Sucker Punch, and (very occasionally) Quick Attack.

Extreme Speed Users

252+ Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 20 Def : 117-138 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Pixilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 238-281 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I consider Entei to be the best user of Altarianite, and the numbers speak for themselves: it almost always deals 50% damage to even the bulkiest Gengar, and, provided there is at least a little chip damage it scores a KO against Zygarde in nearly 100% of situations. It is a strange irony: a Mega Evolution whose theoretical advantage lies in tanking Pixilate Extreme Speed actually struggles immensely against Pixilate Extreme Speed. Also, I should note that my damage calculations are based on an Adamant nature, as I find it to be an incredible nature for Entei.

252 Atk Aerilate Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 20 Def : 223-264 (85.4 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale : 263-309 (81.4 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dragonite is a headache; not only can an Aerilate Extreme Speed OHKO even the bulkiest Gengar (given Spikes, Stealth Rock, or just about any chip damage) but even the hardest-hitting Gengar set fails to take Dragonite down before it Mega Evolves and loses Multiscale. This grants Dragonite a free turn to set up with Dragon Dance and OHKO any Gengar with Extreme Speed, or use Earthquake (if it doesn't want to boost or isn't running Dragon Dance) among other options.

252 Atk Supercell Slam vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 420-495 (160.9 - 189.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Supercell Slam vs. 0 HP / 20 Def : 207-244 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Regieleki is an incredible Pokémon; with the Altarianite, it boasts such high damage and speed that it doesn't even need Extreme Speed to take out Gengar (though it does fit into this category for matchups involving Eeleevate Speed, Sticky Webs, and the like). With Supercell Slam, you'll almost always secure the KO; Extreme Speed usually chips away 70–80% of Gengar's HP; and in desperate situations, Explosion always kills Gengar regardless of the Mega Stone it's holding (unless it's something like Manectite with massive investment in Defense, but that would just be a meme).

Thunderclap

252+ SpA Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 153-180 (58.6 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD :214-253 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 328-386 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Raging Bolt is a very consistent Pokémon within the tier and, as I mentioned earlier, has a wide variety of Mega Stones at its disposal. Even when using one of its less favorable Mega Stones—instead of Delphoxite, which offers higher raw damage and better Special Defense—it still wins the 1v1 against Gengar, even if Gengar is running Dazzling Gleam. Furthermore, if Raging Bolt has set up with Calm Mind, activated Eeleevate (boosting Sp. Atk by +1 after a KO), is holding Delphoxite (for superior special stats) or Raichunite X (to set Electric Terrain), it can make Gengar's life miserable; Gengar is forced to attack to secure the kill, and a single misprediction against Thunderclap could see it defeated before it even gets a chance to act.

Sucker Punch

252 Atk Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 192 Def : 264-312 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Kingambit with Absolite Z is an incredible Pokémon for taking out any other Ghost-type in the meta; its base typing combined with its Mega form creates a 50/50 scenario regarding whether the opponent fires off Focus Blast or Shadow Ball. If it doesn't Mega Evolve, you might trigger Defiant and well you've lost; or, if it does Mega Evolve, that missed Focus Blast no longer matters because it is now immune to the move. Beyond hitting the Speed benchmark to outpace Timid Zygardite Gengar, its STAB Sucker Punch ensures that (regardless of the specific Gengar variant or its bulk investment) you always secure the KO with a single hit; and if you're at +2 from Swords Dance, the result is even more devastating. As if that weren't enough, not only is it faster than Zygardite Gengar, but it can also survive a hit from a Modest Shadow Ball—an incredible feat that makes it genuinely frustrating to face.

Deoxys Speed

Honestly, I’m not even going to show damage calcs here because it would be just ridicule, not only is it a direct competitor to Gengar regarding its best sets, but (regardless of the set it runs) also checks Gengar very consistently. If it’s Staraptite, a Psycho Boost destroys it; Zygardite? Psycho Boost; Cameruptite? A boosted Psychic. The ability to win speed ties against almost any Pokémon, deal great damage with any Mega, and utilize an incredible movepool (whether as a special or mixed attacker) not only makes it a direct rival to Gengar but also allows it to check Gengar in a devastating way.

Well, the list of counters and checks could go on and on, but the point is clear: it has many shortcomings. No matter which set you run, there will always be something missing that Gengar can't handle—and it doesn't help that many of the Pokémon mentioned above (and others I didn't list) are top picks in M&M due to their consistency.

Those are the main issues I see with Gengar; I could discuss the "four-move slot syndrome", but Kapwing’s post covers that topic very well and in great detail. Even if you were to find a Mega Stone that fixed all of Gengar's flaws, it is almost certain that the same Mega Stone would perform better on any of its competitors—simply because they offer superior coverage and versatility. For all these reasons, I believe Gengar should be Unrestricted.

P.D: Gracias AfuroVictini por el QC

 

[consu]

Got reqs for my first time ever with Hyper Beam !

The team: - - - - -

On my first alt I tried laddering with , but it felt surprisingly weak. I swapped out Eelektrossite for Zygardite only to find that really struggles to do much of anything useful in a meta where Dragalgite is everywhere, let alone when it's on walls like and . If that wasn't enough, it gets completely folded by -ate Extreme Speeds, even resisted ones from at that. It is far from useless, being able to ohko and outspeed a lot of offensive threats, but is nowhere near potent enough to be busted. It faces too much competition for its preferred mega stones from mons like , , etc.

The above team which I finally achieved reqs with utilised the combination of and to shut down and OHKO opposing (among other threats). Also, sort of a side note, but is pretty underexplored in my opinion; it can leverage download to give itself +1 SpAtk and then pick up a few kills per game (it is unfortunately an espeed victim though). Pretty much all of my wins were thanks to or (ID CM Stored Power can just win if they don't have a dark type).

Anyway, all of this is to say: is mid

 

[dhelmise]

tags

Demon Queen
consu
Pomellow
Kirby Ronin
XYStarshine
Ducky
damflame 3
QT
Kapwing
Solosis
pyu
Lightniong
TrainerGoldAlt
wegmen77
Betticus IV
Felilou
Nakoruru_XD
zastra
sleepyfwog
ItsChew.
Time2Bonk

https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/231

Deadline: <t:1786075140:R>

60% of the votes (13 votes) will need to be Unrestrict votes to unrestrict Gengar in SV Mix and Mega.

 

[dhelmise]

Gengar is unrestricted!