Ladder Mix and Mega

When people see:

Blazikenite (RESTRICTED):
Atk +40, Def +10, Sp Atk +20, Sp. Def +10, Speed +20, gain Speed Boost

They assume it can't be used on anything. Also the restrictions are very unclear, do they mean it can only be used with mons with the same ability? Are they disallowed?
 
The only physical speed boost mons are ninjask (who is fast enough already), sharpedo (where it's own stone might be better to boost crunch), and Scolipede. Only scolipede might want to run this, but I guess not.
 
Ghoul King said:
So meatspace shenanigans happened. Please life, stop taking my "just-in-case" statements as "please-do-this" statements.

Electrify is banned.

Tagging Snaquaza.

---

I've wondered: did anybody run Blazikenite on anything? I never ran it or saw it, which always surprised me a little.
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I'm guessing its because of -atespeed, considering all of them are weak to some form of it (and some even multiples of them). Plus, they're not that great. The best Blazikenite user is, imho, Blaziken.
 
BibarelThump said:
When people see:

Blazikenite (RESTRICTED):
Atk +40, Def +10, Sp Atk +20, Sp. Def +10, Speed +20, gain Speed Boost

They assume it can't be used on anything. Also the restrictions are very unclear, do they mean it can only be used with mons with the same ability? Are they disallowed?
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Adjusted text to be more explicit, thanks.
 
A 1.5x boost to all moves is nice, but ate + return is stronger than, for example, icicle crash, so weavile always prefers glalite. In addition, it only gives +30 atk and +10 speed, so it leaves you vulnerable to faster mons and it isn't that much stronger than, say, lucarionite, which gives +22 speed, a 1.33x boost, and +35 atk.
 
sin(pi) said:
My biggest concern would be its interactions with Super Fang, Seismic Toss and Night Shade - would it quarter HP/take off 200?
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Super Fang takes out 75% of HP, Seismic Toss and Night Shade take out 200 hp. Also, unlike Adaptability, it boosts the power of coverage moves AND acts as a pseudo Serene Grace, a pseudo Skill Link(breaks subs) and a pseudo Super Luck.
 
1nvalid said:
But now it says Gengarite is both Restricted to native shadow taggers, and also banned. Which one is it?
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Both!

/not actually a joke

Talpr0ne said:
Super Fang takes out 75% of HP, Seismic Toss and Night Shade take out 200 hp. Also, unlike Adaptability, it boosts the power of coverage moves AND acts as a pseudo Serene Grace, a pseudo Skill Link(breaks subs) and a pseudo Super Luck.
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This+how busy we've been with suspecting/banning stuff has been the main reason I've never gotten around to suspecting Kangaskhanite. I'm particularly concerned by Mew, which has a good statline, other good builds to boot, and simultaneous access to Super Fang and Seismic Toss (And Night Shade!) allowing it to murder virtually anything slower than it that's not a Ghost type... and then it has access to stuff like Shadow Ball, and has recovery to keep tanking hits in between murder. Or Taunt, to screw with walls like Aggronite Gourgeist.
 
Ghoul King said:
Both!

/not actually a joke



This+how busy we've been with suspecting/banning stuff has been the main reason I've never gotten around to suspecting Kangaskhanite. I'm particularly concerned by Mew, which has a good statline, other good builds to boot, and simultaneous access to Super Fang and Seismic Toss (And Night Shade!) allowing it to murder virtually anything slower than it that's not a Ghost type... and then it has access to stuff like Shadow Ball, and has recovery to keep tanking hits in between murder. Or Taunt, to screw with walls like Aggronite Gourgeist.
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Shadow Ball? Screw it, run Scald and get a 60% chance of burn.
 
It's actually more like a 51% chance, but that's a decent point anyway. Hits almost as hard, after Filter, and the Burn is a lot more likely to help than Shadow Ball's lower chance of lowering Special Defense. Plus it hits all kinds of other things hard.

Even so.
 
Just like how super fang and s-toss were banned in Linked, it can easily be banned here. Otherwise I don't see what makes it so much better than lucarionite. Less speed is pretty bad in a meta where everything revolves around the faster ate abuser.
 
The difference is that Seismic Toss is inherently broken in Linked, but it isn't in Mix and Mega. Even if you do a complex ban, you still have mons like Parental Bond Entei, or literally anything with Power-up Punch or Charge Beam running around.
 
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I'm curious about this, on one hand the boost isn't all that great. You can get better than 30 attack and 20 attack from elsewhere, however, the special side is the one that sort of gets me.

+2 252 SpA Parental Bond Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 465-547 (124.6 - 146.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Parental Bond Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 390-462 (59.9 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Parental Bond Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Slowking: 297-349 (75.3 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And power-up-punch gives pokemon new ways to boost as well,

252 Atk Parental Bond Weavile Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 34-42 (10.1 - 12.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

+1 252 Atk Parental Bond Weavile Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 51-61 (15.2 - 18.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 217-258 (64.9 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's a roll where you can possibly knock out 180 defence Skarmory, It also knocks out Primal Groudon on the switch.

But you know me, saving the best for last

Hoopa-Unbound @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Magician
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Power-Up Punch
- Drain Punch
- Hyperspace Fury

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Hoopa Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 406-481 (121.5 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Hoopa Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Groudon: 369-436 (91.3 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (Knocked out after PuP damage)

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Hoopa Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 411-486 (97.8 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Hoopa Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 360-424 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

So yeah. I think we should leave Kangaskhanite alone, nice and restricted
 
There is a very good reason most OMs haven't touched Parental Bond since it was banned almost universally at the very beginning of XY. Mix-and-Mega has enough powerful threats as is, but adding parental bond once again increases the pressure to run -atespeeders and creates tons of centralization issues the banning of electrify tried to fix.
 
I'm going to go into some specifics about the damage output of Kangaskhanite compared to Lucarionite.

Physical
For Terrakion, Base 129, STAB moves become ~9.8% more powerful.
For Archeops, Base 140, STAB moves become ~9.8% more powerful.
For Shuckle, Base 10, STAB moves become ~6.5% more powerful.
For Rampardos, Base 165, STAB moves become ~10.2% more powerful.
This means, if you would actually bother to use this stone, you should expect around a 9.8% boost over Lucarionite, for physical attackers STAB moves.

Special
For Keldeo, Base 129, STAB moves become ~9.7% more powerful.
For Latios, Base 130, STAB moves become ~9.7% more powerful.
For Shaymin, Base 10, STAB moves become ~5.8% more powerful.
For Hoopa-U, Base 170, STAB moves become ~10.3% more powerful.
This means, if you would actually bother to use this stone, you should expect around a 9.7% boost over Lucarionite, for special attackers STAB moves.

Those boosts over Lucarionite do exist, and are a good reason to use the stone, but Lucarionite does give you 12 Speed more than Kangaskhanite, which sucks. But, Adaptability only affects STAB moves, and Parental Bond affects all damaging moves. So lets see the discrepancy between Lucarionite and Kangaskhan for non-STAB moves.

Physical
For Terrakion, Base 129, non-STAB moves become ~46.5% more powerful.
For Archeops, Base 140, non-STAB moves become ~46.5% more powerful.
For Shuckle, Base 10, non-STAB moves become ~42.0% more powerful.
For Rampardos, Base 165, non-STAB moves become ~47.0% more powerful.


Special
For Keldeo, Base 129, non-STAB moves become ~46.3% more powerful.
For Latios, Base 130, non-STAB moves become ~46.3% more powerful.
For Shaymin, Base 10, non-STAB moves become ~41.2% more powerful.
For Hoopa-U, Base 170, non-STAB moves become ~47.0% more powerful.

So the thing to consider for this is: where Lucarionite gives you good power in stab moves and better speed, Kangaskhanite gives you even more powerful STAB moves, and also gives you much stronger non-STAB moves. Another thing to consider are the extra strategies/benefits that are granted by parental bond, such as 200 damage seismic toss, hitting past substitute, killing Pokemon with Sturdy or Focus sash in 1 turn, getting 2 chances at every secondary effect, getting +2 attack from power-up punch.

Chances of secondary effects when using Parental Bond:
Iron Head, 2 30% chances = 49% chance to flinch.
Zen Headbutt 90% accuracy + 2 20% chances = 32.4% chance to flinch.
Air Slash 95% accuracy + 2 30% chances = 46.55% chance to flinch.
Scald 2 30% chances = 49% chance to burn.
Ice Beam 2 10% chances = 19% chance to freeze.
Relic Song 2 30% chances = 49% chance to sleep. Relic song is 10%, see above for odds.
Sacred Fire 95% accuracy + 2 50% chances = 71.25% chance to burn.

Effects you can get twice:
Charge Beam 90% acc + 2 70% chances = 44.1% chance to give + 2 SpA, 37.8% chance to give only +1 SpA. 8.1% chance to hit and give no boost, 10% chance to miss.
Fiery Dance 2 50% chances = 25% chance to give + 2 SpA, 50% chance to give +1 SpA, 25% chance to give no boost.
Ancient Power (and variants) 2 10% chances = 1% chance to give +2 to every stat, 18% chance to give +1 to every stat, 81% chance to give no boost.

Some of these things are very scary indeed. I included all the things in the first list to show the difference between parental bond and Serene Grace and how it plays out.
 
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1nvalid said:
I'm going to go into some specifics about the damage output of Kangaskhanite compared to Lucarionite.

Physical
For Terrakion, Base 129, STAB moves become ~9.8% more powerful.
For Archeops, Base 140, STAB moves become ~9.8% more powerful.
For Shuckle, Base 10, STAB moves become ~6.5% more powerful.
For Rampardos, Base 165, STAB moves become ~10.2% more powerful.
This means, if you would actually bother to use this stone, you should expect around a 9.8% boost over Lucarionite, for physical attackers STAB moves.

Special
For Keldeo, Base 129, STAB moves become ~9.7% more powerful.
For Latios, Base 130, STAB moves become ~9.7% more powerful.
For Shaymin, Base 10, STAB moves become ~5.8% more powerful.
For Hoopa-U, Base 170, STAB moves become ~10.3% more powerful.
This means, if you would actually bother to use this stone, you should expect around a 9.7% boost over Lucarionite, for special attackers STAB moves.

Those boosts over Lucarionite do exist, and are a good reason to use the stone, but Lucarionite does give you 12 Speed more than Kangaskhanite, which sucks. But, Adaptability only affects STAB moves, and Parental Bond affects all damaging moves. So lets see the discrepancy between Lucarionite and Kangaskhan for non-STAB moves.

Physical
For Terrakion, Base 129, non-STAB moves become ~46.5% more powerful.
For Archeops, Base 140, non-STAB moves become ~46.5% more powerful.
For Shuckle, Base 10, non-STAB moves become ~42.0% more powerful.
For Rampardos, Base 165, non-STAB moves become ~47.0% more powerful.


Special
For Keldeo, Base 129, non-STAB moves become ~46.3% more powerful.
For Latios, Base 130, non-STAB moves become ~46.3% more powerful.
For Shaymin, Base 10, non-STAB moves become ~41.2% more powerful.
For Hoopa-U, Base 170, non-STAB moves become ~47.0% more powerful.

So the thing to consider for this is: where Lucarionite gives you good power in stab moves and better speed, Kangaskhanite gives you even more powerful STAB moves, and also gives you much stronger non-STAB moves. Another thing to consider are the extra strategies/benefits that are granted by parental bond, such as 200 damage seismic toss, hitting past substitute, killing Pokemon with Sturdy or Focus sash in 1 turn, getting 2 chances at every secondary effect, getting +2 attack from power-up punch.

Chances of secondary effects when using Parental Bond:
Iron Head, 2 30% chances = 49% chance to flinch.
Zen Headbutt 90% accuracy + 2 20% chances = 32.4% chance to flinch.
Air Slash 95% accuracy + 2 30% chances = 46.55% chance to flinch.
Scald 2 30% chances = 49% chance to burn.
Ice Beam 2 10% chances = 19% chance to freeze.
Relic Song 2 30% chances = 49% chance to sleep.
Sacred Fire 95% accuracy + 2 50% chances = 71.25% chance to burn.

Effects you can get twice:
Charge Beam 90% acc + 2 70% chances = 44.1% chance to give + 2 SpA, 37.8% chance to give only +1 SpA. 8.1% chance to hit and give no boost, 10% chance to miss.
Fiery Dance 2 50% chances = 25% chance to give + 2 SpA, 50% chance to give +1 SpA, 25% chance to give no boost.
Ancient Power (and variants) 2 10% chances = 1% chance to give +2 to every stat, 18% chance to give +1 to every stat, 81% chance to give no boost.

Some of these things are very scary indeed. I included all the things in the first list to show the difference between parental bond and Serene Grace and how it plays out.
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small nitpick, but relic song is a 10% chance to sleep...which with serene grace is only 20...i dont see any logical way you could've gotten 30%, as that would make meloetta OU worthy to have a 60% stab sleep move with serene lol.
 
Since we are talking about Kangaskhanite, it causes the pokemon to gain 20 kg opon Mega Evolution, so you should put that in the op
 
Keeping that post in mind, maybe the real culprit is a move like power up punch. A 10% boosts is negligible, especially when compared to the higher speed that lucarionite gives, but it's probably the extra secondary chance (and like I mentioned above, moves like super fang and seismic toss) are probably the things that push it over the top.
 
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