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Ladder Mix and Mega
- Thread starter Imperator Romanum
- Start date
Js, Heliolisk should not get banned at all, as it isn't broken. It is easy to revenge kill via faster mons or Espeed, its setup bait for mons that boost speed with Agility or Rock Polish (such as Klinklang and Cleaner Primal Groudon) and it's pretty frail as well. It's really not that hard to play around, and I've never even thought about it while teambuilding and I still have at least 3 mons that can beat it.
Heliolisk isn't even uncompetitive, I know people like to throw around that phrase to things they don't like but it's not like it adds a large amount of chance to games or completely invalidates certain playstyles. Without a boost it's not very strong and setup bait for a few things, espeed is everywhere, other priority common too, stall will just phase it, it's still outsped by stuff, it's not like it can stomach any hits... like I'm surprised this is even a discussion really.
Let's compare Heliolisk to the previous mons/things that got banned.
Cresselia, bulky, easily abusable, uncompetitive. Dragonite, unpredictable, bulky and frankly ate-speed in general is uncompetitive, but the ones available rn are manageable. Lucario, same as dragonite except with speed and coverage over bulk, especially with its Aerilate set. Baton Pass and Shadow Tag, Shadow Tag is without question uncompetitive on any of its holders. Baton Pass, yes this follows Ubers banlist but with all the magic bounce users running around as well as Shell Armor with Slowbronite, I'd hardly say it's unworthy of a ban.
Now, Heliolisk? As long as you don't boost its SpA and keep playing around to its own advantage, it can't do shit, and can be easily revenged. The thing about Helio is that it's quite predictable and hits way less than some of these pokemon, considering the mega boosts increase offensive as well as defensive power. And as for it being unexpected, well it's out in the open now and people won't be unprepared for it - but they honestly don't need to if they're smart enough.
Cresselia, bulky, easily abusable, uncompetitive. Dragonite, unpredictable, bulky and frankly ate-speed in general is uncompetitive, but the ones available rn are manageable. Lucario, same as dragonite except with speed and coverage over bulk, especially with its Aerilate set. Baton Pass and Shadow Tag, Shadow Tag is without question uncompetitive on any of its holders. Baton Pass, yes this follows Ubers banlist but with all the magic bounce users running around as well as Shell Armor with Slowbronite, I'd hardly say it's unworthy of a ban.
Now, Heliolisk? As long as you don't boost its SpA and keep playing around to its own advantage, it can't do shit, and can be easily revenged. The thing about Helio is that it's quite predictable and hits way less than some of these pokemon, considering the mega boosts increase offensive as well as defensive power. And as for it being unexpected, well it's out in the open now and people won't be unprepared for it - but they honestly don't need to if they're smart enough.
Unless you're a HO team, the enemy getting hazards up off your own effort isn't some kind of crisis, generally speaking. If you are HO, every mistake has the potential to be disastrous. I don't really see how Magic Bounce is unusually bad, especially since Sablenite is generally found only on stallmons and Diancite is very sensitive to offensive pressure -it's popular to put it on slower Pokémon so they can actually outspeed things, but in the turn they Mega Evolve they'll get the worst of both worlds and potentially be KOed before they even move. Absolite is the only reasonably broadly useful, essentially "free" Magic Bounce Mega Stone.
Mold Breaker is an option if you find Magic Bounce that frustrating, it's not something you have to run just because Magic Bounce exists. There's a difference.
Sablenite Blissey can just use Shadow Ball to take out Gengar.
The comparison to OU runs into the problem that this is an Ubers-based meta and even the OU-and-below Pokémon have access to better stats and the potential to customize Ability and typing. Saying "Darkrai was banned from OU so Gengar and Mew shouldn't be able to abuse No Guard Sleep in MnM" is missing that this isn't OU.
You make it sound as if it's hard to OHKO Gengar. It isn't.
Sleep is not a "hax" condition. You're asleep, you can't do anything barring Sleep Talk and Snore. You don't hit someone with Sleep and they immediately wake up and attack anyway. You don't hit someone with Sleep and they attack three times in a row before falling asleep. You hit someone with Sleep and they're out of the match for a minimum of one turn and as many as five. The duration is random, but Sleep itself is not RNG-focused like Paralysis is.
Mewtonite Y was not described by anyone as a good option for taking on Mew or Gengar. The point is that it is an option, and your response suggests to me you haven't actually tried it to then say "no seriously, it doesn't work" from a position of experience.
Not any good against the Steel typed setup sweepers, turns you into a mono-attacker where both of your possible STABs have things immune to them, etc.
Swagplay is bad because there is almost nothing an enemy can do. It's not even about prediction-based 50/50s. You hit them with Swagger and then they hope they don't hit themselves. That's about the extent of their input. If they switch, you just hit them with Swagger again, and they again have to hope the RNG lets them make a choice. Sceptilite Heliolisk can be handled by almost literally any team with prediction, and has severe, exploitable flaws that the majority of teams are in a position to exploit anyway.
Mind, I'm not a fan of it myself. It is obnoxious. But it's not overtly broken, and I don't think it fits any definition of uncompetitive.
Actually, Electrify+Lightning Rod would block an attempt at phasing, unless everything I'm reading about how Electrify works in the games is wrong.
You're right, I just tested it and it does get absorbed. With that, stall is the only playstyle that could really struggle with Helio but the best ones tend to run mold breaker hazards anyway, which tends to come with some status too, so I'm still unconvinced.
What happens when you do it in game? Like in a Doubles Battle (if no one has a hacked Lightning Rod Pokemon with Electrify). I'm curious with like Whirlwind and Taunt in particular what would happen. This seems like such a niche response to a gimmick strategy that I didn't think people would have actually tried it well.
Either way, Mold Breaker seems to work fine. They still will be doing electric typed damage and thus not very effective against Heliolisk, but it's still fine.
Either way, Mold Breaker seems to work fine. They still will be doing electric typed damage and thus not very effective against Heliolisk, but it's still fine.
people have experimented with it, and the extent of which it works is really..bizzare...trust me, if TRANSFORM of all things activates it, i highly doubt taunt/whirlwind won't either.
Oh my, I don't think Game Freak thought this through way too much.
As a diversion from the Heliolisk talk, I'll post some sets I've been using to good success. Or at least, good relative to my skill level in M&M, having played it for 2 days.
Jirachi @ Audinite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Doom Desire
- Calm Mind
- Wish
- Protect
Yeah, yeah, the ability sucks, but this thing is an incredible tank and win condition. Even in M&M, 100/140/140 defenses with Steel/Fairy typing are no joke, and Doom Desire is a spectacularly powerful move to mono-attack with. This thing can take on Pidgeotite Tornadus-T, pretty much every Weavile on the market (after Mevo obv) and a host of other stuff.
Garchomp @ Banettite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar
- Dragon Tail
I'm sure the EV spread could be improved, but one look makes it obvious what this is supposed to do. Prankster Restalk phazing is really quite good in conjunction with hazards and Garchomp's natural bulk, and even uninvested its Dragon Tail takes chunks out of the opponent thanks to the boost from Bannetite. I run it with Latiasite Heatran (standard set) for rocks and Blue Orb Ferrothorn for Spikes.
Jirachi @ Audinite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Doom Desire
- Calm Mind
- Wish
- Protect
Yeah, yeah, the ability sucks, but this thing is an incredible tank and win condition. Even in M&M, 100/140/140 defenses with Steel/Fairy typing are no joke, and Doom Desire is a spectacularly powerful move to mono-attack with. This thing can take on Pidgeotite Tornadus-T, pretty much every Weavile on the market (after Mevo obv) and a host of other stuff.
Garchomp @ Banettite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar
- Dragon Tail
I'm sure the EV spread could be improved, but one look makes it obvious what this is supposed to do. Prankster Restalk phazing is really quite good in conjunction with hazards and Garchomp's natural bulk, and even uninvested its Dragon Tail takes chunks out of the opponent thanks to the boost from Bannetite. I run it with Latiasite Heatran (standard set) for rocks and Blue Orb Ferrothorn for Spikes.
Have seen a video that had an idea similar to this but in standard. It was an NU tier match, one of the sides had an Eviolite Pignite with Rest, Sleep Talk, Low Sweep, and Roar. So that Pignite got neutral priority phazing. This is even better in basically every way, heh. Positive priority phazing, whoa.
Actually, dragonair runs it in NU too w/ dragon dance, since marvel scale raises defense while sleeping. Yeah, I discovered this set essentially, using zygarde w/ coil, then I really regretted posting it when I faced it on the ladder. It's not even particularly good, it's just the epitome of uncompetitive. I don't know how to do it, but somehow it needs to be banned.
Honestly, it's not suspect worthy. It hits semi-hard, and it's fast, but it's frail and just, kinda, meh. I mean, it's defenitely good, but not ban-worthy at all. There are so many things that are way closer to approaching brokenness, while generally considered relatively balanced, that it really fails to truly shine.
This is off topic from the current discussion (and a bit less serious), but just for the hell of it I thought I'd bring this up.
Beedrill has a BST of 395, hence why Beedrillite is balanced on it and basically nothing else. The only way Game Freak could make it viable was to min-max it's stats to make up for it's shitty base form -- if it had 50-100 more points somewhere to begin with, it would end up broken as a Mega. But what if we opened it up to similarly bad Pokemon?
I rounded up a list of all fully evolved Pokemon with a BST below 400 and here are the results with added Beedrillite stats:
Not only are most of these not very threatening by Ubers standards, but they'd be mediocre in OU too. Even ignoring the stats, Adaptability won't even be much help here, with lots of "meh" typings. Beedrill is still probably the most viable user under 400 BST. So why even both opening it up to below 400 BST Pokemon? Three reasons:
1) It better expands on the OM premise to open up Mega Stones to everyone.
2) It potentially opens to the door to viable NFE Pokemon (I haven't checked but I doubt any of them would be broken either)
3) It's fun! Even if they aren't viable, wouldn't it be cool to screw around with a 167 Speed Luvdisc or a vaguely viable Ariados?
Unless anyone can come with a reason why this would be problematic, I think it would be a neat addition to the OM. I'm not even stretching for reasoning on the cutoff here -- 400 is a clean threshold that Beedrill barely fails to pass, being at the top of the list for the Under 400s. I think it's a logical restriction.
I guess this also leads into the discussion of opening up Mawilite to the same bracket of Pokemon, given that Mawile also has lower than 400 BST. I think that could potentially be more scary, but given that the highest base Attack stat of this group isn't much higher than Mawile's, I could see it working out. Thoughts?
EDIT: Also unrelated, but why is Primal Kyogre not ranked on the viability section? In Ubers, it has completely supplanted the regular form due to the popularity of Primal Groudon blocking its STAB. Given the prevalence of Red Orb users, wouldn't the same be true here? Even you argue the base form should stay decently ranked, the Primal form should be on there somewhere.
Beedrill has a BST of 395, hence why Beedrillite is balanced on it and basically nothing else. The only way Game Freak could make it viable was to min-max it's stats to make up for it's shitty base form -- if it had 50-100 more points somewhere to begin with, it would end up broken as a Mega. But what if we opened it up to similarly bad Pokemon?
I rounded up a list of all fully evolved Pokemon with a BST below 400 and here are the results with added Beedrillite stats:
Beautifly
60/130/50/70/50/135
Butterfree
60/105/50/60/80/140
Ariados
70/150/70/30/60/110
Ledian
55/95/50/25/110/155
Dustox
60/110/70/20/90/135
Kricketune
77/145/51/25/51/135
Mawile
50/145/85/25/55/120
Sableye
50/135/75/35/65/50
Delcatty
70/125/65/25/55/140
Corsola
55/115/85/35/85/105
Spinda
60/120/60/30/60/130
Farfetch'd
52/125/55/28/62/130
Unown
48/132/48/42/48/118
Luvdisc
43/90/55/10/65/167
Delibird
45/115/45/35/45/145
Ditto
48/108/48/18/48/118
Smeargle
Impossible, Special Attack is -10
Shedinja
Impossible, Special Attack is 0
60/130/50/70/50/135
Butterfree
60/105/50/60/80/140
Ariados
70/150/70/30/60/110
Ledian
55/95/50/25/110/155
Dustox
60/110/70/20/90/135
Kricketune
77/145/51/25/51/135
Mawile
50/145/85/25/55/120
Sableye
50/135/75/35/65/50
Delcatty
70/125/65/25/55/140
Corsola
55/115/85/35/85/105
Spinda
60/120/60/30/60/130
Farfetch'd
52/125/55/28/62/130
Unown
48/132/48/42/48/118
Luvdisc
43/90/55/10/65/167
Delibird
45/115/45/35/45/145
Ditto
48/108/48/18/48/118
Smeargle
Impossible, Special Attack is -10
Shedinja
Impossible, Special Attack is 0
1) It better expands on the OM premise to open up Mega Stones to everyone.
2) It potentially opens to the door to viable NFE Pokemon (I haven't checked but I doubt any of them would be broken either)
3) It's fun! Even if they aren't viable, wouldn't it be cool to screw around with a 167 Speed Luvdisc or a vaguely viable Ariados?
Unless anyone can come with a reason why this would be problematic, I think it would be a neat addition to the OM. I'm not even stretching for reasoning on the cutoff here -- 400 is a clean threshold that Beedrill barely fails to pass, being at the top of the list for the Under 400s. I think it's a logical restriction.
I guess this also leads into the discussion of opening up Mawilite to the same bracket of Pokemon, given that Mawile also has lower than 400 BST. I think that could potentially be more scary, but given that the highest base Attack stat of this group isn't much higher than Mawile's, I could see it working out. Thoughts?
EDIT: Also unrelated, but why is Primal Kyogre not ranked on the viability section? In Ubers, it has completely supplanted the regular form due to the popularity of Primal Groudon blocking its STAB. Given the prevalence of Red Orb users, wouldn't the same be true here? Even you argue the base form should stay decently ranked, the Primal form should be on there somewhere.
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I don't know if you read carefully, but a 140/120 attack and speed stat respectively on adaptability Mawile would be very strong. I'm not against limiting beedrillite to beedrill, it's fine as it is.
So, you want to deal with Crawdaunt with 180 Atk and 125 Speed backed up by Adaptability?
The meta is already crazy diverse, honestly, more diversity kinda the last thing it really needs. It's kinda like unbanning mediocre ubers; it sounds cool, and at first you think, that'd be sweet, but then you realize that it doesn't really add anything.
I was going to include this as an edit, but it ended up being very long. Here's what would get Beedrillite access and my two cents on their effects on the game.
Affected Pokemon
Basculin Adaptability, Water - HP 70, Atk 152, Def 65, SpA 50, SpD 55, Spe 168
Crawdaunt Adaptability, Water/Dark - HP 63, Atk 180, Def 85, SpA 60, SpD 55, Spe 125
Dragalgae Adaptability, Poison/Dragon - HP 65, Atk 135, Def 90, SpA 67, SpD 123, Spe 114
Porygon-Z Adaptability, Normal - HP 85, Atk 150, Def 70, SpA 105, SpD 75, Spe 160
My expectations for their effectiveness against the meta:
Basculin: Would be a huge threat with powerful water moves. Counters would include Primal Groudon and a plethora of other red orb users (Togekiss, Heatran, Hippowdon, Volcarona, Roserade etc. Anything that isn't weak to Fighting Dark or Zen Headbutt is pretty much guaranteed to counter). Some Bulky Grass types will counter, some will check. Aerialate/Pixilate users will be very strong and common checks.
Crawdaunt: Would be an incredible Wall breaker. Counters include Red Orb Togekiss, Slowbronite Virizion, Red Orb Conkeldurr. Checks include Aerialate/Pixilate users, anything above 125 speed can pretty much kill it, Every Conkeldurr, Every Breloom, Primal Groudon. Crawdaunt is strong, but is it stronger than the rest of the meta or scarier than the rest of the meta? Compare it to Lucarionite Terrakion: Adaptability, Fighting/Rock HP 91, Atk 154, Def 108, SpA 97, SpD 90, Spe 130. Seems comparable to me, if not a weaker option, considering Terrakion has Close Combat and Stone Edge.
Dragalgae: Wouldn't even be all that great, 114 Speed is pretty bad for a sweeper in mix&mega. Outrage and Dragon Tail are its only physical Dragon options, Gunk Shot is a good Poison option. Hitting hard would be good if it wasn't hard walled by every steel and steel/fairy. a short list of counters include Klefki, Altarianite Cobalion, Skarmory, Aggronite Vaporeon. A rank or higher checks include Terrakion Heatran, Bannetite Arcanine, Aggronite Gyarados, Archeops, Pidgeotite Victini, Pidgeotite Gengar, Absolite Manaphy.
Porygon-Z: Might be less of a threat than Dragalgae. The High speed and access to Return/Double Edge are the best reasons to run it, and it gives Porygon-Z the option to bait things like Blissey and take them out early. There's a huge list of counters, pretty much every Ghost, uncommon as they might be, and every steel type, common as they might be.
Affected Pokemon
Basculin Adaptability, Water - HP 70, Atk 152, Def 65, SpA 50, SpD 55, Spe 168
Crawdaunt Adaptability, Water/Dark - HP 63, Atk 180, Def 85, SpA 60, SpD 55, Spe 125
Dragalgae Adaptability, Poison/Dragon - HP 65, Atk 135, Def 90, SpA 67, SpD 123, Spe 114
Porygon-Z Adaptability, Normal - HP 85, Atk 150, Def 70, SpA 105, SpD 75, Spe 160
My expectations for their effectiveness against the meta:
Basculin: Would be a huge threat with powerful water moves. Counters would include Primal Groudon and a plethora of other red orb users (Togekiss, Heatran, Hippowdon, Volcarona, Roserade etc. Anything that isn't weak to Fighting Dark or Zen Headbutt is pretty much guaranteed to counter). Some Bulky Grass types will counter, some will check. Aerialate/Pixilate users will be very strong and common checks.
Crawdaunt: Would be an incredible Wall breaker. Counters include Red Orb Togekiss, Slowbronite Virizion, Red Orb Conkeldurr. Checks include Aerialate/Pixilate users, anything above 125 speed can pretty much kill it, Every Conkeldurr, Every Breloom, Primal Groudon. Crawdaunt is strong, but is it stronger than the rest of the meta or scarier than the rest of the meta? Compare it to Lucarionite Terrakion: Adaptability, Fighting/Rock HP 91, Atk 154, Def 108, SpA 97, SpD 90, Spe 130. Seems comparable to me, if not a weaker option, considering Terrakion has Close Combat and Stone Edge.
Dragalgae: Wouldn't even be all that great, 114 Speed is pretty bad for a sweeper in mix&mega. Outrage and Dragon Tail are its only physical Dragon options, Gunk Shot is a good Poison option. Hitting hard would be good if it wasn't hard walled by every steel and steel/fairy. a short list of counters include Klefki, Altarianite Cobalion, Skarmory, Aggronite Vaporeon. A rank or higher checks include Terrakion Heatran, Bannetite Arcanine, Aggronite Gyarados, Archeops, Pidgeotite Victini, Pidgeotite Gengar, Absolite Manaphy.
Porygon-Z: Might be less of a threat than Dragalgae. The High speed and access to Return/Double Edge are the best reasons to run it, and it gives Porygon-Z the option to bait things like Blissey and take them out early. There's a huge list of counters, pretty much every Ghost, uncommon as they might be, and every steel type, common as they might be.
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252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Mawile (Beedrillite) Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 170-202 (42 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that's a STAB attack with the Adaptability boost -- if you use Sucker Punch or anything else, it's SIGNIFICANTLY weaker
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 272-320 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Mawile (Beedrillite) Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 170-202 (42 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I mean, it's faster, but also less bulky. 120 is actually pretty lackluster for an offensive threat in this metagame, anyway. Usable, but not great.
I don't understand this statement. How is diversity ever a bad thing? And...unbanning Ubers? Isn't this an Ubers OM...?
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Diversity is never a bad thing. What MaestroDeSWAG was saying is that increasing diversity when it adds nothing else to the metagame does nothing but waste the council's time. The unbanning ubers was an example from different metas that like to do that. Another example is how irl less qualified minorities often get chosen over more qualified non-minorities for legal reasons. It looks good on paper but isn't a good thing.
Jajoken, along with what Throbulator36 was saying, increasing diversity does encourage creativity, but along with that, it makes matchup an even bigger issue. There are already so many top-tier threats to prepare for, it makes it difficult to play full offense, perhaps even more than full stall (quick aside, I actually think stall is better in this meta, overall, as offense struggles to fully prepare for other offensive teams, but that is unrelated and totally debatable). The biggest reason that it is such an issue for offense is the initial turn in which turn order is determined by your base speed.
This makes it so that, say youre running thundy to check manaphy, and it has not had a chance to safely come out yet, if the opponent sends out manaphy, you basically auto-lose. Offense is required to risk losing its checks to other offensive pokes, just so it can even have a chance to beat whatever it's supposed to check.
All that seems unrelated, but it's really not, so just hear me out. With matchup already an issue, compounded with the above, we don't need to make the meta even more matchup reliant. That's all that unbanning some ubers and giving more access to beedrillite would do. It would give you more opstions, but the reward isn't really worth the consequence, imo.
This makes it so that, say youre running thundy to check manaphy, and it has not had a chance to safely come out yet, if the opponent sends out manaphy, you basically auto-lose. Offense is required to risk losing its checks to other offensive pokes, just so it can even have a chance to beat whatever it's supposed to check.
All that seems unrelated, but it's really not, so just hear me out. With matchup already an issue, compounded with the above, we don't need to make the meta even more matchup reliant. That's all that unbanning some ubers and giving more access to beedrillite would do. It would give you more opstions, but the reward isn't really worth the consequence, imo.
Realising now that Heloisk gains a boost form Whirlwind and Status. Which means I'm now fine with quick banning this thing
xJownage
How are you luring Primal don? I wouldn't say giving Primal Groudon a free switch in is something any A+ Rank mon should. And Hippowdown completely counters it with Whirlwind, Toxic and Recovery. Running ice beam makes you fodder for an entirely different list of pokemon.
I agree, it wouldn't be fair of me to judge Kyogre without using it beforehand, so I went ahead and added it to my team and ladder up to the high ladder. And I have to say I disagree with anything outside of D rank. If we could get the fact that we're both capable battlers and both our teams were atleast decent out of the way I'll continue. I played 15 battles with Kyogre, where I replaced Manaphy with Kyogre since they're both special waters.
First of all, this thing gets zero switch ins. Because of Water spouts mechanics and Kygores niche is basically water spout, being a very fast and strong move. But this set really does face competition from Pidgeotite Keldeo. Pidgeotite Keldeo isn't completely destroyed by Primal Groudon, nor is it beaten by the likes of Ferrothorn or Blissey. And it can also switch up moves making Keldeo stronger and demanding less support, it's also an offensive check to Weavile, which outspeeds Modest Kyogre.
Why would I use Kyogre over Keldeo/Manaphy/Suicune when all of these pokemon offer team support, require close to none and is far less predictable.
Kyogre is precitable and outclassed. Kyogre has one set that is not 100% outclassed, and that is Choice scarf Water spout. The unfortunante truth about this is that it means that you're honesly walled to death by Ferrthorn, Blissey and Primal Groudon. This is of course just the biggest counters, you also have Sceptilite Milotic, Sceptilite Suicune, Sablenite Suicune, Red orb Roserade, Red orb Raikou and Red orb Hippowdown. And that's just the counters, never mind the thousands of checks.
Easily exploitable. Kyogres lack of coverage renders it useless against common red orb users. Which means you can't even 2HKO Primal Groudon. So even if you revenge kill something like Gengar, which is why you classified is at A. But that also means Primal Groudon, probably the single best pokemon in the tier at the moment, can set up a swords dance/rock polish which RUINS offensive teams. Literally the only playstyle that justifies Kyogre. How is that something that's A rank? Yeah, I kill Gengar but now I'm forced out by Primal Groudon or I give Ferrothorn a free layer of spikes/stealth rock. When instead I could use Keldeo, which forces somebody to attack you because it's far less exploitable.
In practise this thing is even worse. I used this a lot, and it was honestly just a liability. Even though it got a kill every now and then it doesn't justifie anything, I can use any pokemon with the support of five others and it can be effective. Donphan is blacklisted in OU yet Pokeaim used it in his in video.
That's basically the jist of it, I though you just fucked up the sprite when it was in A rank. This thing really shouldn't be ranked higher than D. Tell me what it gains.
Zygarde should be S rank, the reason Lucario wasn't S in the beginning was because of it facing competition from Dnite, and also being fodder for it.
The council aren't really thinking of re-evaluating Beedrilite. We're currently discussing Manaphy. All the mons who can use Beedrilite become broken anyways, so why would we go out of our way to add more wallbreakers?
xJownage
How are you luring Primal don? I wouldn't say giving Primal Groudon a free switch in is something any A+ Rank mon should. And Hippowdown completely counters it with Whirlwind, Toxic and Recovery. Running ice beam makes you fodder for an entirely different list of pokemon.
I agree, it wouldn't be fair of me to judge Kyogre without using it beforehand, so I went ahead and added it to my team and ladder up to the high ladder. And I have to say I disagree with anything outside of D rank. If we could get the fact that we're both capable battlers and both our teams were atleast decent out of the way I'll continue. I played 15 battles with Kyogre, where I replaced Manaphy with Kyogre since they're both special waters.
First of all, this thing gets zero switch ins. Because of Water spouts mechanics and Kygores niche is basically water spout, being a very fast and strong move. But this set really does face competition from Pidgeotite Keldeo. Pidgeotite Keldeo isn't completely destroyed by Primal Groudon, nor is it beaten by the likes of Ferrothorn or Blissey. And it can also switch up moves making Keldeo stronger and demanding less support, it's also an offensive check to Weavile, which outspeeds Modest Kyogre.
Why would I use Kyogre over Keldeo/Manaphy/Suicune when all of these pokemon offer team support, require close to none and is far less predictable.
Kyogre is precitable and outclassed. Kyogre has one set that is not 100% outclassed, and that is Choice scarf Water spout. The unfortunante truth about this is that it means that you're honesly walled to death by Ferrthorn, Blissey and Primal Groudon. This is of course just the biggest counters, you also have Sceptilite Milotic, Sceptilite Suicune, Sablenite Suicune, Red orb Roserade, Red orb Raikou and Red orb Hippowdown. And that's just the counters, never mind the thousands of checks.
Easily exploitable. Kyogres lack of coverage renders it useless against common red orb users. Which means you can't even 2HKO Primal Groudon. So even if you revenge kill something like Gengar, which is why you classified is at A. But that also means Primal Groudon, probably the single best pokemon in the tier at the moment, can set up a swords dance/rock polish which RUINS offensive teams. Literally the only playstyle that justifies Kyogre. How is that something that's A rank? Yeah, I kill Gengar but now I'm forced out by Primal Groudon or I give Ferrothorn a free layer of spikes/stealth rock. When instead I could use Keldeo, which forces somebody to attack you because it's far less exploitable.
In practise this thing is even worse. I used this a lot, and it was honestly just a liability. Even though it got a kill every now and then it doesn't justifie anything, I can use any pokemon with the support of five others and it can be effective. Donphan is blacklisted in OU yet Pokeaim used it in his in video.
That's basically the jist of it, I though you just fucked up the sprite when it was in A rank. This thing really shouldn't be ranked higher than D. Tell me what it gains.
Zygarde should be S rank, the reason Lucario wasn't S in the beginning was because of it facing competition from Dnite, and also being fodder for it.
The council aren't really thinking of re-evaluating Beedrilite. We're currently discussing Manaphy. All the mons who can use Beedrilite become broken anyways, so why would we go out of our way to add more wallbreakers?
I really would propose a simple ban of Electrify tbh, it's a rather useless move otherwise, prevents complex ban, and still gives people access to Heliolisk as well as Sceptilite.
And I was of the opinion that Heliolisk was easy to handle too before I tested with AJA and found that it affects everything. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, Gamefreak didn't really think this through.
And I was of the opinion that Heliolisk was easy to handle too before I tested with AJA and found that it affects everything. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, Gamefreak didn't really think this through.