Ladder Mix and Mega

[QT]

You know Akuzuki right? The guy who has constantly been reaching first on the M&M ladder, and is surpassing you(#2) at the moment by 60 points. If you search his username in the replays, and you watch his 3 most recent battles, you'll find out that he replaced his Entei for an Arcanine. I don't know much about how they compare to each other, but that alone makes me believe that Arcanine is not painfully outclassed by Entei. And based on that, I also believe that bulky atespeeder is a role that the metagame needs.

Please don't bring the people who post it into the argument- that's just asking for trouble. Additionally, if you are going to refute someone, please at least give a reason.

Arcanine's big advantage is Close Combat, which lets it beat a few Pokemon Entei can't, most notably Blue Orb Steel types. The ability to heal itself is worth commentary, too, though it's somewhat flawed as Blue Orb is still going to be a common switch-in to it -Blue Orb Scizor can tank anything it does, for instance- and therefore Morning Sun is particularly unreliable as healing goes, but Close Combat is the main thing. The main question is how popular things Arcanine's Close Combat can knock down actually are -Blue Orb Ferrothorn is something it murders that Entei hates, for instance, but if Blue Orb Ferrothorn isn't that popular it's not that big of a deal.

Regardless, Arcanine isn't "Bad Entei".

I'm going to go try to figure out just how they stack up, but its hard to battle the same team twice on ladder. If anyone is willing to challenge me for testing, it would be appreciated.

Absolite Manaphy can break Skarmbliss, too, thanks to Scald's Burn chance letting it grab the 2HKO on Blissey even though it can't get it on raw damage, unless we're positing some bizarre Red Orb Skarmory build. It's not as reliable as Keldeo, but it also breaks Red Orb Hippowdon paired with Blissey, which Keldeo does not, among other examples of powerful defensive cores that Keldeo can't actually break and Manaphy can. Hole-punching isn't very useful if a team can have a 100% reliable switch-in that will always wall you, seeing as how you don't actually get to hole-punch at that point. That strikes me as "Keldeo hole-punches badly designed teams and certain specific defensive cores that aren't necessarily the most common or best defensive cores". That's useful, but it doesn't strike me as A-rank useful.

Most of the Pokemon in S through A- resist one or more -atespeeds (Specifically Fairy or Flying) without being weak to any of them/only weak to Refrigerate Extreme Speed. The exceptions usually either directly overcome that flaw (Glalitite Weavile revenges into -atespeed and Fake Outs) or aren't anything that's going to go face-to-face with -atespeed anyway -or are able to use a Mega Stone to patch up that flaw, and do so as a legitimately viable build. (eg Pinsirite Terrakion removes the Fairy weakness in favor of an Ice weakness) Tornadus, Keldeo, Latios, and Noivern are the only Pokemon currently in the A- and up range that flat-out hate -atespeed and I'd argue that Pidgeotite Tornadus is largely shunted aside by Pidgeotite Gengar, Noivern is much less powerful than it was first thought to be (I honestly think it belongs somewhere in B, maybe even C, as offensive teams and defensive teams alike aren't scared of it), I'm currently arguing that Keldeo isn't that amazing... which leaves Latios, which I'll admit to not being very clear on what people use it for and why, so I have no idea whether it belongs in A or not. (I will comment I almost never see Latios nowadays, which seems odd for a supposedly A-rank Pokemon)

So that's one flaw I don't think is "common on many top-tier 'mons".

I could go on, but I don't want this to turn into a thing so I'll leave it at that until at least the next post.

Keldeo, for me, doesn't so much punch holes in cores as punch holes in teams in general. Unless you have one of its counters, you are pretty much going to lose a mon. To make matters worse, those hard counters aren't particularly good. Additionally, It can be used along manaphy for a sort of Waterspam, in which they break each other's counters.
Latios is a defogger and attacker that can switch in on and ko PDon, Ampharosite mew, Excadrill, Hippowdon, ...
basically all the rock setters except Metagross and Heatran. Its not incredibly amazing, but it still fulfill its Ubers niche and greatly benefits from the lack of Xerneas.

 

[FOZ369]

Please don't bring the people who post it into the argument- that's just asking for trouble. Additionally, if you are going to refute someone, please at least give a reason.

As far as I'm aware, Akuzuki hasnt posted in this forum. I just brought that up because I thought it was funny that AllJokesAside simply stated that Arcanine is bad and that nobody should use it over Entei.

And also, I support AllJokesAside's proposition to raise Skarmory to A+.

 

[sin(pi)]

Misc thoughts on VR with little to back them up:

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I've been somewhat unimpressed with Hoopa-U and Ekiller Arc. Neither are quite strong enough to pick up the KOs they want to in my experience (using Lopunnite Hoopa). Of course you could use a different stone, but then you're either even slower (camel) or still weaker (most of the other stones).
I also think Cobalion should rise to at least A+, its Pinsirite set is ridiculous - if you give it a single turn of setup it can clean teams once Skarm and electric types are removed/weakened.
Not sure why Genesect is so high, iirc it's C- or D rank in Ubers and this meta doesn't do it a huge number of favours.
I'm pretty sure Kyub is straight up inferior to Kyu-W or regular Kyurem.
Unrank Deo-N, it's 400% outclassed by Deo-A or -S and we don't have to rank every single Uber.

Is BP Clause in effect, by the way? IIRC Ubers doesn't have it, but given that this metagame is using OU ban philosophy, I want to clarify.

Also, does anyone have a decent specially bulky mon for offence (not blissey)? I've been using Kyurem as a Manaphy check but most games it's just fodder (the ladder seems to be geared towards offense and it's too slow).
...which reminds me that (scarf) Zekrom probably has a niche as a Manaphy check that can OHKO both common sets (absolite, sceptilite) with Bolt Strike (uninvested lol) and Draco (48 SpA EVs guarantee it). Worth a higher rank? Maybe not, but could be worth a look into.

 

[Jerry311]

lol imagine a diancite rampardos or darmanitan. dies to any priority but nukes everything. darmanitan has base 15 defences but 200 atk and 155 speed rampardos has 118 speed and a whopping 225 atk with a good 125 spa too. I could see running head smash maybe EQ and special moves.i just had a thought, what about mega zen mode darmanitan? lets look into some posiblities... maybe cameruptite? 135 defences with 180 spa and sheer force seems good but base 15 speed is really really slow

 

[OM]

lol imagine a diancite rampardos or darmanitan. dies to any priority but nukes everything. darmanitan has base 15 defences but 200 atk and 155 speed rampardos has 118 speed and a whopping 225 atk with a good 125 spa too. I could see running head smash maybe EQ and special moves.i just had a thought, what about mega zen mode darmanitan? lets look into some posiblities... maybe cameruptite? 135 defences with 180 spa and sheer force seems good but base 15 speed is really really slow

A friend of mine used both, and honestly you'll get one kill at the most. Zen mode means you have to lose 50% of your HP so uhhh... Nice wall.

 

[colourcodedchaos]

Would Metagrossite Rampardos be at all viable? I mean, your man Rampardos's big problem is a lack of bulk, which is boosted a bit, and a low Speed, which is boosted a lot more. Throw Tough Claws in the mix and I think you could have a pretty nasty physical attacker, though how good it is remains to be seen.

Another interesting thought experiment is Altarianite Noivern. Pixilate Boomburst is always nice, especially off a base 137 Special Attack with Altarianite. Draco Meteor, U-Turn, and Taunt rounds out the set I have in my head, but I fully expect to be torn to shreds on this.

Actually? I expect to be torn to shreds on both of them. Tear away! I love to learn. =]

 

[QT]

Would Metagrossite Rampardos be at all viable? I mean, your man Rampardos's big problem is a lack of bulk, which is boosted a bit, and a low Speed, which is boosted a lot more. Throw Tough Claws in the mix and I think you could have a pretty nasty physical attacker, though how good it is remains to be seen.

Another interesting thought experiment is Altarianite Noivern. Pixilate Boomburst is always nice, especially off a base 137 Special Attack with Altarianite. Draco Meteor, U-Turn, and Taunt rounds out the set I have in my head, but I fully expect to be torn to shreds on this.

Actually? I expect to be torn to shreds on both of them. Tear away! I love to learn. =]

Well Metagrossite Rampardos might be decent, but the problem is that it still only has 98 speed- slower than most things pre mega. I would instead suggest Aerodactylite Archeops- 32 more speed, 5 more defense, 15 more special defense, 47 more spa, and a nice flying typing. The cost? 5 atk and 22 hp.
Alarianite Noivern is good and on the vr- however, you don't want Draco Meteor. It loses that typing- give it hurricane instead. Offstab Draco is somewhat sad and doesn't beat steel types. Flamethrower might also be a good option over taunt because of all the magic bounce, but that is just preference.

 

[Sugarbear]

Honestly you'd be better off using the Pinsirite or Salamencite on Archeops as that also gives it a great Flying STAB in Return. Flying Return with EdgeQuake has perfect neutral coverage on anything you'd ever be likely to see. Pinsirite gives I think the same boosts as Aerodactylite, but a much more useful ability for Archeops. Salamencite gives more physical bulk at the expense of power.

 

[QT]

Honestly you'd be better off using the Pinsirite or Salamencite on Archeops as that also gives it a great Flying STAB in Return. Flying Return with EdgeQuake has perfect neutral coverage on anything you'd ever be likely to see. Pinsirite gives I think the same boosts as Aerodactylite, but a much more useful ability for Archeops. Salamencite gives more physical bulk at the expense of power.

Yes, this is true. I assumed, However, that he simply wanted the raw power of head smash, which pinsirite lacks.

 

[FlameUser64]

Zen mode means you have to lose 50% of your HP so uhhh... Nice wall.

Well, you could lose 50% HP to activate Zen Mode, then Mega Evolve and Rest. If things are working as intended, Darm should remain permanently locked in Zen Mode Forme. Obviously it's not optimal but it could work.

 

[thdhted]

Well, you could lose 50% HP to activate Zen Mode, then Mega Evolve and Rest. If things are working as intended, Darm should remain permanently locked in Zen Mode Forme. Obviously it's not optimal but it could work.

Not to mention Darm's got a pathetic special movepool. So it's even less optimal.

Random thought:
Y'know what I'm sick of people using? Mewtwonite Lando-T. It's extremely -ate weak, slowish, and bad. REAL men use Pinsirite Lando-T.
And use Explosion immediately afterwards

Less random thought:

More people need to use Red Orb Raikou. Some people may argue that Zapdos is the better user, but I'm of the opinion that Raikou has a few traits that set it apart from Zapdos.
Firstly, a better speed to start with. Raikou is fast enough that even with the forced Rash Nature, it still has enough speed to outrun and subsequently bring down Manaphy on the turn it Mega Evolves.
Secondly, it has access to Weather Ball, while this may not be as interesting to some, the ability to simply click the Weather Ball button one the predicted Blue Orb switchin and watch it die.
I'm gonna edit this later with more arguments.

 

[colourcodedchaos]

Well Metagrossite Rampardos might be decent, but the problem is that it still only has 98 speed- slower than most things pre mega. I would instead suggest Aerodactylite Archeops- 32 more speed, 5 more defense, 15 more special defense, 47 more spa, and a nice flying typing. The cost? 5 atk and 22 hp.
Alarianite Noivern is good and on the vr- however, you don't want Draco Meteor. It loses that typing- give it hurricane instead. Offstab Draco is somewhat sad and doesn't beat steel types. Flamethrower might also be a good option over taunt because of all the magic bounce, but that is just preference.

... Er, does it lose Dragon-type? Smogon seems to think it's Dragon/Flying rather than the reverse.

 

[Lucalu2015]

Not to mention Darm's got a pathetic special movepool. So it's even less optimal.

Random thought:
Y'know what I'm sick of people using? Mewtwonite Lando-T. It's extremely -ate weak, slowish, and bad. REAL men use Pinsirite Lando-T.
And use Explosion immediately afterwards

Less random thought:

More people need to use Red Orb Raikou. Some people may argue that Zapdos is the better user, but I'm of the opinion that Raikou has a few traits that set it apart from Zapdos.
Firstly, a better speed to start with. Raikou is fast enough that even with the forced Rash Nature, it still has enough speed to outrun and subsequently bring down Manaphy on the turn it Mega Evolves.
Secondly, it has access to Weather Ball, while this may not be as interesting to some, the ability to simply click the Weather Ball button one the predicted Blue Orb switchin and watch it die.
I'm gonna edit this later with more arguments.

Tbh Red Orb Raikou destroys anything that doesnt resist or doesnt have decent special defense and hp ( blissey -.- ) , 2hkos entei after rocks( idk zygarde and groundon ) ,works very well with mons walled by skarm and most physical walls great mon in general :]] definitively a force to recognized

 

[FlameUser64]

... Er, does it lose Dragon-type? Smogon seems to think it's Dragon/Flying rather than the reverse.

Noivern is, quite uniquely, Flying/Dragon rather than Dragon/Flying.

 

[Talpr0ne]

... Er, does it lose Dragon-type? Smogon seems to think it's Dragon/Flying rather than the reverse.

The Smogon Dex is unreliable on this as it sets the types on alphabetical order instead of the actual order in the game. The Showdown teambuilder has them correct though.

 

[Sugarbear]

Not to mention Darm's got a pathetic special movepool. So it's even less optimal.

Random thought:
Y'know what I'm sick of people using? Mewtwonite Lando-T. It's extremely -ate weak, slowish, and bad. REAL men use Pinsirite Lando-T.

Thank you, I have no idea why people run this thing. Pinsirite and Altarianite are both such better items. Ground/Flying and Ground/Fairy have way better neutral coverage than Ground/Fighting (and the only Fighting move it gets is Superpower).

Also, why the fuck are people using Diancite Terrakion? Yeah great idea dumbasses, completly ruin Terrakion decent bulk so it has no switch in opportunities at all. Give it the Lucarionite or Loppunnite - you honestly don't need 168 Speed, the Lucarionite and Lopunnite give you much more useful abilities and DON'T DESTROY YOUR DEFENCES. If Terrakion's moving too slow, just run Rock Polish - it easily has space.

 

[canno]

I'm still boggled as to why people run Mewtwonite at all when Lopunnite is almost always better - at the very least its always better on something like Lando-T who already has monsterous attack and not so great speed. Sure, Lopunnite gives less attack but it's still a huge attack increase, and you also get a +30 Speed and, most importantly, an ability that's actually useful.

 

[FlameUser64]

I'm still boggled as to why people run Mewtwonite at all when Lopunnite is almost always better - at the very least its always better on something like Lando-T who already has monsterous attack and not so great speed. Sure, Lopunnite gives less attack but it's still a huge attack increase, and you also get a +30 Speed and, most importantly, an ability that's actually useful.

I think it's one of the concepts listed in the OP, precisely because of that massive amount of Attack. And because it has a useful pre-Mega ability to make up for its non-useful ability after Mega Evolving. It is kinda one of those conceptually pretty cool but actually inefficient things, though. Other stuff wallbreaks harder.

Edit: And since it's in the OP, that would make it my fault that people are using it.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Hey ya'll so we're going to be having a short and concentrated debate now, for maybe a day. Manaphy is going to be looked at and most likely in 24-ish hours, depending on how you guys react we're going to ban Manaphy for five days to take a look at how the Metagame will be! And if it's better or worse, discuss!

 

[Ghoul King]

For reference, it's primarily the combination of Manaphy's Absolite and Sceptilite sets that is prompting this Suspect. (Note that it does have other viable Mega Stones, such as Blue Orb) Discussion should keep this point in mind -a number of Pokemon builds that check or counter Absolite Manaphy lose to Sceptilite Manaphy, such as Red Orb Raikou, and so few things function as adequate checks, let alone counters, to Manaphy that a single error can cost Manaphy's opponent the entire match, as teams often don't have more than one or two good checks to Manaphy.

Quick summary:

@ Absolite
100/120/100/140/100/140

Magic Bounce

@ Sceptilite
100/125/110/140/100/125

/

Lightning Rod

Sceptilite Manaphy is slower, making it more generally vulnerable to Speed-based checks, and its vulnerability to Pixispeed/neutrality to Fridgespeed hurts it against offense, but Water/Dragon is an excellent typing and Lightning Rod can catch off guard popular Electric checks. (People rarely look to Grass to counter Manaphy) Becoming neutral to both Electric (Mold Breaker) and Grass also means it can often take on Pokemon that expect to handily KO it before it can get going.

Discuss.

 

[xJownage]

Hey ya'll so we're going to be having a short and concentrated debate now, for maybe a day. Manaphy is going to be looked at and most likely in 24-ish hours, depending on how you guys react we're going to ban Manaphy for five days to take a look at how the Metagame will be! And if it's better or worse, discuss!

Basically, if we approve, we get a suspect test. Nice. Different direction then banning and then hoping the metagame improves.

Personally, I don't see manaphy as a metagame warping threat. Manaphy is VERY threatening, but it doesn't strike me as unhealthy simply because its not that hard to prepare for. While many of us will feel differently, I don't think banning Manaphy accounts very important aspects of basic metagame philosophy, and banning a mon that doesn't heavily restrict teambuilding or make battles more matchup based probably would set a lousy precedent for the future of the metagame.

In the past, when we've banned mons, we have always banned them because they are excessively restrictive and are difficult to prepare for. Manaphy is neither of those things. It's not making life harder for teambuilders, and doesn't create problems in most situations. It merely is a great sweeper and hole puncher - its easy enough to stop without preparing for it that I don't see the reason to ban it, and fear for the future.

Many have called for a Manaphy suspect, but it seems awfully odd to attempt to ban something that is so easily played around for most teams.

I don't have the desire to go too in-depth right now, so I'm just giving my surface 2 cents without really thinking about it. The viability rankings will be updated shortly.

 

[FlameUser64]

I have no idea why this keeps putting in work:

Doom! (Jirachi) @ Ampharosite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Draco Meteor
- Doom Desire
- U-turn

I use it as a lead when I expect Sablenite leads. Stealth Rock, Doom Desire, U-turn out. I keep hoping for the opportunity to Doom Desire, Stealth Rock, and then Draco Meteor for the one-turn 2HKO, but it hasn't happened yet and probably isn't going to. Somehow, even coming in later, only to Doom Desire and U-turn, has been effective as well. Red Orb Raikou is something I often find myself U-turning to. This likely has a lot to do with the fact that Red Orb activates instantly on switch-in. One potential problem is that by using Jirachi as a lead I lose the opportunity to send in other, harder-to-activate Megas such as Glalitite Weavile, particularly when Jirachi is faced with slower tanks than itself. I keep wondering if I should replace Draco Meteor with Wish, but I'm reluctant to do so as I'd lose my immediate nuking ability. Not that there's anything that doesn't either resist or have immunity to Draco, what with all the Steel- and Fairy-types running around. I think Draco Meteor has proved useful exactly once.

Rest of the team is:
Raikou @ Red Orb
Weavile @ Glalitite
Entei @ Altarianite
Blissey @ Sablenite
Meloetta @ Cameruptite

I basically just threw this team together using some mons I knew were good plus Jirachi and Meloetta.

 

[FOZ369]

My first attempt at this sort of thing.
I'd say it's better that Manaphy goes. There are almost no reliable checks to it. If Manaphy is running HP ground then Red Orb Raikou and Togekiss aren't safe. The best check to it is Blissey, but the only things it can do against an Absolite Manaphy is seismic toss or hyper voice it. And if the Manaphy stays in and gets to +6, it pressures the Blissey to keep on recovering with surf or scald. So when the Blissey takes out the Manaphy, it will be at low enough hp to be considered death fodder.

I don't run a Blissey on my team, so every time a Manaphy comes in, this is what I usually happens with me:
1. I switch to my Groudon on a tail glow
2. It takes a +3 grass knot/energy ball/ ice beam
3. Groudon thunderbolts it back
4. Groudon dies to another attack
5. I bring in my Ditto (I don't have any espeeders)
6. Make the Ditto attack
Its crucial that I bring Groudon in first, because I need to weaken the Manaphy to make sure that I can rk it with Ditto. If the Manaphy runs grass knot or hp ground I can't ko it from full hp.

I think Manaphy should be banned from holding stones because when taking into account the coverage it has, the only reliable checks to it are Blissey and some Pokes like Aggronite Kyurem and Salamence. There are quite a bit of reliable checks for all of the other top threats in M&M but not for Manaphy.

For a very powerful and fast Poke, it has very good bulk. There are handful of similar Pokes that could take Manaphy's role of being a fast and powerful special attacker though, like Keldeo and Starmie. They are manageable. In my opinion, Manaphy is unhealthy for M&M.

 

[bp scrub]

Not to mention Darm's got a pathetic special movepool. So it's even less optimal.

Zen Mode Darm probably isnt too viable, but fire blast, psychic, focus blast, grass knot would probably be usable if you could mega evolve it

 

[Lemon Ginger]

whelp...here's the issue with Manaphy. The Sceptilite set means that throwing out the electric or grass attack that should OHKO just results in you losing. I have found ONE pokemon that can switch in on a tail glow, tank any of scald, e-ball, ice beam or hp ground, and OHKO either variant back. That pokemon is freakin cameruptite freeze-dry articuno. wow such a viable check. Cameruptite Hoopa-U comes close, with a 31% to OHKO with psychic, though in this case, you're better of setting TR.

Basically, the options for dealing with this thing are chance giving the sceptilite set a boost, or sac something and revenge with priority. Manaphy's bulk (even uninvested) makes it very difficult to outright KO.