M&M Mix and Mega

[Scarf]

I've said this a few times on PS as a joke but I suppose I might as well bring it up here. I've never really understood why certain Ubers are allowed to hold stones by default as opposed to not being able to. Naganadel is I believe the 5th? Ubers mon being considered for a suspect after Pheromosa, Skymin, Marshadow & Deo-S and the 2nd newly released Uber alongside Marshadow. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to be banned automatically and then revisited at a later date should they turn out to not be OP? This may be easy to say in hindsight but this policy would have led to blatantly OP Pokemon being weeded out much quicker, which would avoid situations such as what occured in the MnM Open and just generally reaching a healthier state quicker.

 

[Lcass4919]

I've said this a few times on PS as a joke but I suppose I might as well bring it up here. I've never really understood why certain Ubers are allowed to hold stones by default as opposed to not being able to. Naganadel is I believe the 5th? Ubers mon being considered for a suspect after Pheromosa, Skymin, Marshadow & Deo-S and the 2nd newly released Uber alongside Marshadow. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to be banned automatically and then revisited at a later date should they turn out to not be OP? This may be easy to say in hindsight but this policy would have led to blatantly OP Pokemon being weeded out much quicker, which would avoid situations such as what occured in the MnM Open and just generally reaching a healthier state quicker.

the simple answer is that when the meta was made they weren't "ubers". all tiers use OU's initial banlist as a template, and weed out the "problems" the tier gives itself, rather then following OU. this allows the meta's to be able to "grow" in their own way and would prevent bizzare stuff like Landorus being banned dispite not being an issue in mnm whatsoever.or having two bans in a row before a meta can really stabilize. its not a matter of "why certain ubers are allowed to hold stones by default" but rather they are previous OU mons that were not deemed banworthy in mnm.

source: i was in the conversation for how the tiers would be run, and personally asked for this in Almost Any Ability and TI said he preferred all OM's in the discussion to do this.

also letting a nasty plotter like darkrai back in, when agreeing to remove nagandel for a similar reason is just bizzare. darkrais problem has nothing to do with pidgeottite...its that its stupid powerful, stupid fast, has perfect coverage that compliment its stab, and has nasty plot.

 

[astralydia]

[

Blissey - Get this thing out of here. All of the Pokemon Chazm listed have separate checks that should always be paired with Blissey (I mean what kind of Blissey is going to even try to wall a Terrakion, Keldeo or a Victini? The mons you listed are yeah things that break it, but that's only 3 Pokemon that lure it still. That's an incredibly small number for a Pokemon that walls over three quarters of the shit on VR. In addition to that, Manaphy has been seeing less and less usage and it's not that hard to see why considering how many mons there are that it can't set up on for fear of being beat. The only Magearna that beats Blissey is CM Split Cameruptite and that's like one of four stones it uses. Mew is uncommon and honestly I'm unsure if it wins. I guess you could? But like, it's still ridiculously broken for what it does and 6-8 Pokemon beating it doesn't make it healthy imo. Also, Primal Groudon beats most of what you listed and it's not a bad idea to put it on the same team as Bliss.

Just gonna point out that you are wrong on many fronts. Manaphy can happily pressure Blissey and muscle its way through, despite +6 Surf barely doing half damage. This isn't even looking at how much the Cameruptite variant would do, either, which absolutely annihilates most stalls.

Second off, that's one of seven stones Magearna can viably hold, and it's the best one Magearna can use. It's not going to change much by using its diversity against it.

There are also a bunch of setup users that I haven't bothered to mention that also beat Blissey quite comfortably, but it's because Blissey isn't really staying in to tank them. The three I noted above are generally good for punching bulkier teams - even those with Groudon-Primal are heavily pressured, and most Groudon-Primal are not EVd to take on OTR + CM Magearna either - if I'm honest, Victini's a better partner just because of how much stronger it is as a breaker, and its rare roles in being able to check Xerneas and Keldeo help its case considerably more.

 

[Ren]

[


Just gonna point out that you are wrong on many fronts. Manaphy can happily pressure Blissey and muscle its way through, despite +6 Surf barely doing half damage. This isn't even looking at how much the Cameruptite variant would do, either, which absolutely annihilates most stalls.

Second off, that's one of seven stones Magearna can viably hold, and it's the best one Magearna can use. It's not going to change much by using its diversity against it.

There are also a bunch of setup users that I haven't bothered to mention that also beat Blissey quite comfortably, but it's because Blissey isn't really staying in to tank them. The three I noted above are generally good for punching bulkier teams - even those with Groudon-Primal are heavily pressured, and most Groudon-Primal are not EVd to take on OTR + CM Magearna either - if I'm honest, Victini's a better partner just because of how much stronger it is as a breaker, and its rare roles in being able to check Xerneas and Keldeo help its case considerably more.

A) I never said Manaphy couldn't pressure Blissey, just that it's been increasingly seeing less usage and that most of the meta and possible Blissey partners can easily pressure it.
B) What about stones like Sablenite and Venusaurite which are all common and good? It's forced to run Cameruptite to beat Blissey, those other stones don't have a chance lol. Or you could run that CM Split set on them if you really want ig, but why would you? Also what the fuck 7 stones LOL
C) Blissey isn't staying in to tank Terrakion Keldeo or CM Split Mag either, yet you mentioned those fsr?
D) it's a fucking Pdon vs a Magearna dude why do you need to ev it

 

[Mark K]

A) I never said Manaphy couldn't pressure Blissey, just that it's been increasingly seeing less usage and that most of the meta and possible Blissey partners can easily pressure it.
B) What about stones like Sablenite and Venusaurite which are all common and good? It's forced to run Cameruptite to beat Blissey, those other stones don't have a chance lol. Or you could run that CM Split set on them if you really want ig, but why would you? Also what the fuck 7 stones LOL
C) Blissey isn't staying in to tank Terrakion Keldeo or CM Split Mag either, yet you mentioned those fsr?
D) it's a fucking Pdon vs a Magearna dude why do you need to ev it

I'll just drop this on
252+ SpA Sheer Force Magearna Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 176-208 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO

But yeah be ready for chazm's reply, it might shatter your perception, Magearna is a lot stronger and more versatile than you think

 

[astralydia]

A) I never said Manaphy couldn't pressure Blissey, just that it's been increasingly seeing less usage and that most of the meta and possible Blissey partners can easily pressure it.
B) What about stones like Sablenite and Venusaurite which are all common and good? It's forced to run Cameruptite to beat Blissey, those other stones don't have a chance lol. Or you could run that CM Split set on them if you really want ig, but why would you? Also what the fuck 7 stones LOL
C) Blissey isn't staying in to tank Terrakion Keldeo or CM Split Mag either, yet you mentioned those fsr?
D) it's a fucking Pdon vs a Magearna dude why do you need to ev it

A) Fair point. I'll dismiss.
B) CM Split is worth for this role - it actually compresses tons of what Magearna does into an offensive package. More optimal than you think, but the other sets are irrelevant here.
C) All three of these have lacking answers already. This is the main reasoning why I mentioned them in the first place.
D)252+ SpA Sheer Force Magearna Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 249-294 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Sheer Force Magearna Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 374-440 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You were saying...? C:

Now I'd prefer to not derail this talk any further. I'd rather get back to the general topic instead of arguing over Blissey rn

 

[Scarf]

the simple answer is that when the meta was made they weren't "ubers". all tiers use OU's initial banlist as a template, and weed out the "problems" the tier gives itself, rather then following OU. this allows the meta's to be able to "grow" in their own way and would prevent bizzare stuff like Landorus being banned dispite not being an issue in mnm whatsoever.or having two bans in a row before a meta can really stabilize. its not a matter of "why certain ubers are allowed to hold stones by default" but rather they are previous OU mons that were not deemed banworthy in mnm.

source: i was in the conversation for how the tiers would be run, and personally asked for this in Almost Any Ability and TI said he preferred all OM's in the discussion to do this.

Sure, copying OU's initial banlist would make sense for an OU-based meta like AAA, but this is Mix and Mega, a whole different ball game. Clearly this approach is not working well as we're a year and a bit into Gen 7 and there are still a fair number of issues. This current system has proven to be inconsistent, arbitrary and the root cause of a couple of issues that has plagued this tier for a while now and as far as I'm concerned there's really no sensible argument for it. Sure, you may get things like auto-banning something that turns out to not be OP (not Landorus as you mentioned though, obviously, as there's no need to ban things we already know are not OP.. Think something like Volcanion in ORAS) but that's almost a non-issue considering a short while later the community will realise this and it'll be freed. This is much more manageable and consistent.

 

[Lcass4919]

Sure, copying OU's initial banlist would make sense for an OU-based meta like AAA, but this is Mix and Mega, a whole different ball game. Clearly this approach is not working well as we're a year and a bit into Gen 7 and there are still a fair number of issues. This current system has proven to be inconsistent, arbitrary and the root cause of a couple of issues that has plagued this tier for a while now and as far as I'm concerned there's really no sensible argument for it. Sure, you may get things like auto-banning something that turns out to not be OP (not Landorus as you mentioned though, obviously, as there's no need to ban things we already know are not OP.. Think something like Volcanion in ORAS) but that's almost a non-issue considering a short while later the community will realise this and it'll be freed. This is much more manageable and consistent.

this meta might have ubers in it, but its not a ubers meta, if that makes sense. if it was, then nothing would be banned because ubers doesnt ban things. MNM's concept mostly revolves around the OU tier, and saying its a ubers meta would just confuse people more.

basically what makes more sense:
MnM is a OU based meta where pokemon in OU are allowed to run various mega stones and inherit their effects. Ubers are allowed in the tier due to the power creep this meta inherits.

or...

MnM is a Ubers based meta where pokemon in OU are allowed to run various mega stones and inherit their effects, however bans follow the OU tier's guidelines for what to ban rather then Ubers, since Ubers doesnt ban things enless they are otherworldly OP (eg, OHKO, mega ray, etc)

correct me if im wrong, but the first one is way less confusing. i dont have to explain how MnM's bans work if i just state its a OU based meta that has ubers in it. where if we say its an ubers based meta we have to explain that only OU mons gain the boosts, and it mostly follows OU's ban logic...basically making it a OU meta.

also i think your underestimating the issues a tier has if it has to constantly ban and unban things that arent relivant to the tier, and by doing this, you actually will have less time to take into accounts actual issues since you have to devote time to actually considering if something is worth bringing back. the community isnt always agreeing with a lot of things ya know. not to mention coders will become agitated having to ban shit just to unban it 3 days later.

so tldr: doing it your way annoys coders, confuses beginners, and clutters the thread with constant "??? is banned! ??? is unbanned! ??? is being suspected!" every three days. and even LESS manageable for chloe, beginners, Leaders AND coders

edit: also all tiers are still suspecting things. its not MnM's tiering logic thats flawed, its that its impossible to fully balance a meta perfectly. even if we do it your suggested way, there will still be the same amount of problems arising, if not more. OU still has ongoing bans, NU still has ongoing bans, its not a foreign thing to metas.

 

[The Consort]

Disclaimer: Feel free to skip reading this. It seems longer than it is, and I'm not exactly adding much to the conversation as most things have been said, but these are still my opinions.

I want to quickban Pidgeotite.
Pidgeotite has proven time and time again to be a problematic Mega Stone. Each time we are faced with the dilemma of one or two problematic users of the stone, and once they are banned, another few rise up and take their place. When Darkrai and Shaymin-Sky were permitted, Xurkitree was honestly considered subpar and not very viable. Nowadays people are crying out for a Xurkitree Suspect Test, when following a ban of that, Genesect and/or Gengar would potentially take their place. Pidgeotite's ability of giving No Guard to any Pokémon allows a myriad of Pokémon to abuse powerful low-accuracy moves. This in conjunction with the added Special Attack boost of 65 just overwhelm a lot of possibly good Pokémon. Removing Pidgeotite would initially impair a lot of Special Attackers; however, they'd just move to Diancite, Lucarionite and Absolite and many of the less broken ones would still be as effective. I was initially hesitant on looking into this stone as banning a stone is much more detrimental than banning a few Pokémon; however, the amount of Pokémon that this Mega Stone can push to the limit is unjustifiable. Pidgeotite is unhealthy for the metagame. A suspect test is unreliable, takes too long and the natural bias would lean towards the stone remaining.

I absolutely agree with this. The call to suspect Xurkitree is the proof I need for this claim. HOWEVER, the only problem I have with this is that I am unsure if it is the time for quickbanning anymore. That seems like something that happens shortly after a generation drops or a new pokemon is released (like Marshadow in pre USUM). That is just a technical thing though that may want to be addressed for some players of the metagame that will be upset by the ban. Its just an issue I can foresee coming up, not that I myself mind the quickban.

I want to unban Shaymin-Sky.
I want to solely unban Shaymin-Sky following the Pidgeotite quickban. Shaymin-Sky relied solely on Pidgeotite to be classified broken and was average beforehand. Shaymin-Sky can run niche Diancite or Red Orb sets without being overwhelming. Take this in contrast to the other three Pokémon that were banned with a Pidgeotite set post-release. Deoxys-Speed's Gyaradosite set sets hazards every time unless it comes into contact with First Impression Golisopod (lol), which is unmatched by any other Pokémon. It's overcentralising when it comes to suicide leads, its speed tier is unmatched, and additionally there may be another rising offensive set. Darkrai ensures that it relies on a 60/40 before becoming a potent offensive force with Diancite or Absolite. While there is an argument that it isn't strong enough to justify remaining banned, my simple counter-argument is that there's no reason to unban it really. Lastly, Pheromosa, which wasn't banned for its Pidgeotite set but that did help push it over the edge. Its offensive sets were too difficult to manage and again there's no reason to unban it.

I would want to give everything banned by (or primarily by) Pidgeotite a second chance, including Skymin. I personally enjoyed Pidg-Skymin even though it was broken. Just personal taste though.

This leads in to my next point, I want to be more proactive with Uber Pokémon bans.
Upon Marshadow's release there was hesitation among the council. A few members believed that it wasn't potent enough to justify a quickban (this was a mistake but that's besides the point). When a new Pokémon drops and is Ubers, and makes the metagame overcentralising, can we please be more proactive and quickban that Pokémon. I understand the intent of trying to keep as many Pokémon as possible but in the case of Marshadow or a more recent example Naganadel, there's no real reason to leave them in the metagame.

Hesitation isn't necessarily a bad thing. The meta can adjust, but if the council is divided, then it can be left to a suspect test. I can't really talk for the council or critique it like you can, but that is another option -- be more active with suspects for things like Naga and Marshadow.

I want to quickban Naganadel.
This was briefly covered in my last point, but I want to reiterate that there's no real reason to leave this in the metagame. This in addition with the potency of Naganadel and its inability to be reliably checked by any Pokémon defensively makes you question why it remains in the metagame. People are genuinely running Blue Orb Magearna on defensive archetypes, a horrible set, in order to disallow NP/AOA Pidgeotite breaking past, NP Diancite being too overwhelming and Red Orb just using its massively powered STAB. There's no reliable answer to this Pokémon and it shouldn't really see usage. There's one arguably good check and even that gets overwhelmed by many Nasty Plot sets.

Once again, I agree. But I'm a broken record at this point.

I want to suspect test Blissey, if metagame trends follow as expected.
Following the above actions, the next course of action would be to ensure the Stall archetype doesn't really overwhelm the metagame. One of the only real arguments keeping this from being too potent in the current metagame are the common set-up sweepers that can keep it at bay. Once Pidgeotite Xurkitree and Pidgeotite Naganadel are removed, Blissey has a much easier time defending against specially offensive Pokémon. Its defensive capabilities are unmatched by anything and there's even a very limited amount of physical attackers that can surpass it. The only few that really come to mind are Terrakion, SD Kartana, SD Golisopod, Explosion Genesect and a select other really niche ones. These don't even succeed 100% of the time in achieving that feat. I'm arguing that it's the premier specially defensive wall, not that it walls all physical attackers; however, it should be quite simple to see why this Pokémon is problematic.

ABSOLUTELY. Please. Please. Please. Please.

 

[Scarf]

this meta might have ubers in it, but its not a ubers meta, if that makes sense. if it was, then nothing would be banned because ubers doesnt ban things. MNM's concept mostly revolves around the OU tier, and saying its a ubers meta would just confuse people more.

basically what makes more sense:
MnM is a OU based meta where pokemon in OU are allowed to run various mega stones and inherit their effects. Ubers are allowed in the tier due to the power creep this meta inherits.

or...

MnM is a Ubers based meta where pokemon in OU are allowed to run various mega stones and inherit their effects, however bans follow the OU tier's guidelines for what to ban rather then Ubers, since Ubers doesnt ban things enless they are otherworldly OP (eg, OHKO, mega ray, etc)

correct me if im wrong, but the first one is way less confusing. i dont have to explain how MnM's bans work if i just state its a OU based meta. where if we say its an ubers based meta we have to explain that only OU mons gain the boosts, and it mostly follows OU's ban logic...basically making it a OU meta.

also i think your underestimating the issues a tier has if it has to constantly ban and unban things that arent relivant to the tier, and by doing this, you actually will have less time to take into accounts actual issues since you have to devote time to actually considering if something is worth bringing back. the community isnt always agreeing with a lot of things ya know. not to mention coders will become agitated having to ban shit just to unban it 3 days later.

so tldr: doing it your way annoys coders, confuses beginners, and clutters the thread with constant "??? is banned! ??? is unbanned! ??? is being suspected!" every three days. and even LESS manageable for chloe, beginners, Leaders AND coders

"this meta might have ubers in it, but its not a ubers meta, if that makes sense."

"Mix and Mega is an Ubers-based metagame that allows you to use any Mega Stone (or Orb) on any fully-evolved Pokémon"

No, it doesn't make sense. Your points are that it'd be a bit confusing and it'd annoy coders? Do you really think such insignificant factors should be the reason why this tier can't better itself with a more up-to-date policy? The OP already does a good job of explaining this meta's concept. I think at this point you're simply fabricating flimsy excuses. As for your one not-so-illegitimate point, being the cluttered thread one, even that one is nonsense. The meta leader is herself a forum mod capable of maintaining the thread well on her own. You're also very heavily exaggerating the number of successive bans and unbans this system would cause. When you say the tier would have bans and unbans every three days, I can't help but take that as a joke. These are such non-issues and should absolutely not take precedent over actual healthy meta developement.

 

[Lcass4919]

"this meta might have ubers in it, but its not a ubers meta, if that makes sense."

"Mix and Mega is an Ubers-based metagame that allows you to use any Mega Stone (or Orb) on any fully-evolved Pokémon"

No, it doesn't make sense. Your points are that it'd be a bit confusing and it'd annoy coders? Do you really think such insignificant factors should be the reason why this tier can't better itself with a more up-to-date policy? The OP already does a good job of explaining this meta's concept. I think at this point you're simply fabricating flimsy excuses. As for your one not-so-illegitimate point, being the cluttered thread one, even that one is nonsense. The meta leader is herself a forum mod capable of maintaining the thread well on her own. You're also very heavily exaggerating the number of successive bans and unbans this system would cause. When you say the tier would have bans and unbans every three days, I can't help but take that as a joke. These are such non-issues and should absolutely not take precedent over actual healthy meta developement.

im an idiot. prob should've looked at the OP before saying that. w.e. it barely changes anything so meh.

edit: i dont even care anymore. feel free to read this if you want for more insight to my opinion, but i wont respond. or argue against anything. im known for saying incorrect facts since i seem to have short term memory loss or something, so w.e.

Hide

okay, let me word it another way that i guess i didn't mention it properly: we can ban everything from OU right away, but that means everything will have to be tested to see if it would be worth bringing back, because this tier follows its OWN banlist as opposed to strictly ubers/OU, meaning chloe would have to deal with almost EVERY SINGLE BAN except the "obvious ones" that RARELY HAPPEN and see which would be potential to drop down. meaning it would literally change nothing but make fair bans take slightly shorter at the cost of making unfair bans demanding pseudo-suspect tests devoted to them because this meta follows its own banlist. not only this, but the community will have to debate weather its worth bringing it back or not, meaning regardless the fair bans will end up needing to be unbanned too, LITERALLY MAKING THIS DEVELOPMENT POINTLESS.i mean, if we immidiately banned naga when OU did, we wouldn't be positive if it was banworthy here (i dont think there was any debate about naga until it was banned), it would be debated, then unbanned and then badda boom were back to square one.

and before you say anything, this is what i mean, we would have to have:
MnM's banlist ( pokemon like regigigas)
OU's banlist: self explanitory
MnM's Unbanlist from OU (mons like Landorus)

and removing the unban list simply to follow this new policy would be an even BIGGER issue. so dont even mention doing that.

pardon my aggression, i probably should've elaborated that point a bit stronger in the first place(yes i did mention it, fourth line, first sentence). but i dont like the way you worded your post. its almost like you actually JUST read the tldr part, rather then the entire post, where there WAS a hint to my above point in there.

like, i actually had to consider these things when we first started SM you know. i ran SM AAA at the start of the metagame. and im not just saying that to boost my ego. i actually had to think about these things. and although i might be rusty, id appriciate it if you didn't act like i didn't know what i was talking about, and literally nitpick the "extra detail" i threw on at the end and acting like that was my only point.

 

[Funbot28]

Guess it's my turn:

Always thought that Pidg had to go but was scared to share my opinion as I thought I was the only one who would want to suggest a ban on it. The negative influence this stone has on the meta is pretty evident imo considering how dumb certain abusers such as Xurkitree, Genesect, Mew, and Gengar become thanks to the accuracy buff it gives to their moves. This wouldn't be as big of an issue if it wasn't for the added fact that it provides a massive Special Atk. boost on top of some extra Speed to turn specific aforementioned abusers such as Genesect and Crobat into absolute terrors for more offensive playstyles. While the stone may not be the best in terms of offensive stats it provides compared to other stones like Diancite and Lucarionite, No Guard is just too dumb of an ability on a variety of mons (especially after the GSC move tutors) to make this stone anything else but unhealthy atm, it should go.

Realistically can see both of these mons come back in lieu of a Pidg ban since the stone was what really pushed both of these mons over the edge imo. Shaymin-S becomes a speedy attacker with Diancite or Lucarionite that can be annoying still with Seed Flare stat drops and Air Slash flinching, but I see it being no worse then stuff like Tapu Lele and Genesect which we already have to deal with. While the Gyaradosite set was annoying, it was really the offensive Pidg set that made Deo-S anything close to broken imo since I feel the metagame still has ways to maneuver around its hazard layering capabilities thanks to its weakness to -ate and its general lack of power which can leave it quite passive at times.

Ye this mon is probably still gonna be broken even with Pidg gone. Both Diancite and Lucarinite sets are still too potent and lack proper defensive counterplay to realistically consider this mon healthy. Perfect coverage + unmatched Speed and spammable STABS just constricts teambuilding too much considering the only real way to check it properly is through priority. Wouldn't oppose a quickban (also Red Orb is sick too try that out before it goes).

Actually surprised to see this brought up but is definitely a topic of contention considering Blissey's history in the metagame. Usually when I build an MnM team, the first thing that comes to my mind is "how does my team actually break through Blissey?" and usually this can only be answered through the same pool of mons (ie: Kartana, Terrakion, Keldeo, SD Necrozma, Red Orb Victini) which really stagnates teambuilding imo. Hazard setting has become so hard and this is mainly thanks to Blissey's presence in a match due to it being so fat and never dying. It contributes to lazy teambuilding since most balance teams would almost never not want to run it due to how well it can perform its role as a general sponge to practically every offensive threat in the metagame bar the mons I mentioned previously. Calm Mind sets are also very annoying to deal with as well and has lead me to countless wins without proper counterplay due to how good of a wincon it is. While sets like CM + Painsplit Magearna and SD Necrozma-DM do help deal with it, the ban of Shadow Tag had made Blissey to overbearing of a presence in the meta, which is why a suspect after a Pidg ban can be plausible. Im just worried about the state of the meta without it's presence though since I feel it kinda holds the meta together atm.

 

[Laxpras]

We're thinking way too hard about this. There's no reason to argue if this is an "Ubers metagame" or the chronological requirements for quickbanning. Who cares. This is a wasteful conversation that distracts from legitimate points.

Pidgeotite is horrible for the meta. I said it last gen, I've been saying it since it was released this gen. There are way too many broken things with it. Sleep moves, Zap Cannon, Dynamic Punch, Keldeo, etc. This isn't even accounting for the +70SpA boost. I would personally be in favor of banning sleep moves/Zap Cannon/DeoS... but I doubt that's how MnM wants to do it. Thus Pidg should go.

DeoS is broken with mold breaker too. Why are we so fervently trying to randomly allow this Uber to be able to use stones? There is no legitimate justification for it that I've seen. This is likely just being brought up just due to recency/exposure bias of it being used before. Idrc about unbanning Shaymin-S if Pidg goes but sure whatever no one will use it

Naga: See above. Stop allowing random ass Ubers to hold stones without justifying it. It makes no sense.

Blissey is broken. That's another thing I've been saying all of this gen. How hard it is to kill it is absolutely ridiculous.

We don't need to think too hard about this stuff....

 

[Eddiegames]

Admitedtedly I don't really like Magearna that much either, probably even more then Naganadel, just because the amount of things that can contest with it feels so niche, that if I'm not able to cover that, on top of KOing the switch-ins, it can just go wild. It feels like the only things that can beat it are Fire/Ground Types that go for all attack, and sometimes still can't OHKO a defensive set, or something really Bulky with super effective moves, (Primal-G), and sometimes still like above:

D)252+ SpA Sheer Force Magearna Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 249-294 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Sheer Force Magearna Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 374-440 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's just, I feel that it hits way to hard for something, that'sso capable defensively, and if you don't have it's weaknesses covered, oh boy, you just lost half your team.

On a more positive note after experimenting with various stupid teams, I made one mon that might actually be almost viable, (maybe, possibly) that's Latiasite Nihilgo, with base 157 SpD, 103 Spe, and 157 SpA, it's able to wall out most special attackers, outspeed a decent chunk, and hit reasonably hard back. Can carry either Tox Spikes, or Rocks up to you, also can carry Clear Smog if you need to shut down setup mons, lastly if it carries Grass Knot, it is capable of beating Primal Kyogre if it isn't full SpA invested Origin Pulse.

On the note of banned mega stones, I think it might be worth considering unbanning the Huge/Pure Power Megas, but only for specific pokemon that wouldn't completely dominate the metagame, since I think the idea of using one of them and having a potentially mixed/physical Alakazam and the like would be really interesting.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

I'd like to clarify my point from earlier. If we're going to ban Pidgeotite because Zap Cannon is too powerful, then it makes far more sense to simply ban Zap Cannon, as it is the primary source of the problem (and is bad without No Guard, anyways). I am well aware that this was discussed earlier in the thread, but circumstances have changed. It's time for us to choose, and this choice will change the course that Mix and Mega takes.

If Pidgeotite as a stone is broken, then it has to be with the sleep moves. With a choice of all sleep moves or Pidgeotite, I would ban the stone. However, we've had very viable counterplay for a long while, and it isn't exactly narrow, either. We have a total of three stones with Magic Bounce: Absolite, Sablenite, and Diancite. While the latter of these stones is heavily prediction-based, the other two can be used in a great variety of roles. In particular, there is rarely a balance team without a Sablenite user (This is also one of the big reasons why the having two of the same stone is a bad idea). If one or more are already Mega Evolved, then it's actually a liability to simply throw out a Hypnosis. At best, your opponent gets momentum. At worst, a wrong prediction can single-handedly throw the game for the Pidgeotite user. And that's not mentioning that Pidgeotite doesn't grant so much speed in comparison to other stones.

And with this, I must also ask: is this stone's upside so high that it inherently causes the metagame to warp around it in an unhealthy matter? Or is Magic Bounce simply a powerful tool used by the vast majority of teams, anyways? I'd like you all to think about this long and hard, because the answer is going to influence Mix and Mega on a whole. We're at a turning point that we're questioning prior states of normality, so every answer is that much more important...

 

[OM]

I totally called pidgeotite qb in discord earlier go me

Anyways, onto the issues at hand:

Pidgeotite is something I feel is absolutely broken. An additional 65 special attack, 20 speed, No Guard, and spammable high BP special moves like Zap cannon, Blizzard or Inferno make it a very powerful force to be reckoned with. Zephyr has brought up the choice of banning zap cannon, sleep or pidgeotite, and personally I choose pidgeotite. Zap cannon is a very annoying move that can paralyze you after smashing you with a 120 bp move, and will hinder that pokemon to the state of uselessness on offense. The issue though is that you just replace Zap cannon with Thunder and you're good to go. Sure you may be giving up 10 bp and 70% chance to paralyze, but 30% is as high as scald and everyone hates scald.

Sleep can be inherently blocked due to sleep clause / magic bounce making it less useful, but still potent, because lol sleep.

It's just that the tools this stone gives you is extremely oppressive to offense, and at points can't even be priority'd away.

Naganadel can go to ubers where it belongs, idrc for it myself.

Skymin and darkrai can come back into the fold if pidgeotite is gone, they just don't have the power anymore without it.

Uh, I'm good for a bliss suspect test, just to get a feel of the metagame without it. I'm not sure if it's broken or not though.

Yeah, that's my opinion. Have a good day!

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

This does not reflect the views of the council, but is solely my view on how to improve this metagame (Although now you have the viewpoints of all council members so you can probably piece it together).

On Quickbanning Pidgeotite
Against this. Even leaving aside the time factor, banning stones on a quickban is to me even more of an issue than quickbanning Pokemon, by a large factor. It can be necessary, and just looking at our banlist I think it's pretty clear that it was several times, but I don't think Pidgeotite warrants it. At the moment, the only thing I think can be considered remotely broken with Pidgeotite is Xurkitree (Even anti naganadel people should see that Naganadel's power isn't derived from Pidgeotite), and I'd much prefer to suspect that. My preferred course of affairs would be:
1. Suspect Xurk + 0Tol* Pidgeotite
2. If issues continue (such as via Xurkitree staying unbanned or something like mew becoming broken) suspect Sleep
3. If issues continue (such as via Xurkitree or sleep staying legal or zap cannon also proving too much) suspect Pidgeotite
but I would be readily amenable to swapping 2 and 3.

*In which 0tol means that it stays, but if it comes up again between whether to suspect Pokemon or Stone we go stone

On unbanning Shaymin-Sky, Deoxys-Speed, Darkrai, and Pheromosa
I would support a Shaymin-Sky unban after a ban of either sleep or Pidgeotite; the same goes for Darkrai, as while they are potent special attackers they are very much manageable without that additional threat, and would be nice additions to the fast special attacker pool rather than simply relying on Naganadel or Tapu Lele for pretty much everything.
I wouldn't support a Deoxys-S unban post Pidgeotite ban or Zap Cannon ban, but I would support it being suspected back in. Given that it was not banned solely on the effects of Pidgeotite, I don't agree with unilaterally returning it, but do believe it has the possibility of being healthy.
I 100% would not support the return of Pheromosa, via suspect or otherwise. In all honesty, Pidgeotite was essentially irrelevant to its ban, and the metagame hasn't changed to the point that it would be a good introduction to the tier.

On more proactive Quickbans
No issue in theory, but while I'm split on whether it was right or not to quickban Marshadow I'm against that being applied to Naganadel as well. Regardless of it staying or going, I think both the thought process and results were, if not optimal, at least pretty good. In all honesty, I could very well see more Ubers being entirely healthy upon an unban, although for obvious reasons we would need to be very careful. One potential better way to handle these newly released uber-ish Pokemon, however, might be to create a suspect immediately upon their release, after which they may be allowed in by majority vote rather than having to be suspected out.

On Quickbanning Naganadel
Re: Saving time while we have other suspects: If it is to save time re: Pidgeotite, my preferred solution would be to quickban it, get whatever solution to Pidgeotite is optimal (Banning mons, banning sleep, banning zap cannon, banning the stone) out of the way, and then have a scheduled, additional suspect test similar to those outlines in the previous paragraph to potentially bring it back in.

Re: Quickbanning merely to remove it: I'm not a fan. Its handleable both defensively (Magearna, Aggronites such as mew, Ditto stall teams, Blue Orb Steels, Specially Defensive Ho-Oh, Necrozma Dusk Mane) and offensively (Espeeders, Weavile, Ditto again, Offensive tanks such as Primal Groudon, Scarfers), both by extremely solid answers and ones that are already in common usage. It may be considered broken, although I do disagree, but not to the point that on its own merits it should bypass the suspect test.

On Suspect Testing Blissey
Not unless major metagame changes come into play in addition to the ones above. Its handleable, both by special attackers such as Keldeo, tapu Lele, Magearna, Volcarona, Xerneas, and Lunala, and by plenty of physical Pokemon. It doesn't really block rocks, although it does make them harder to set, and is incredibly passive. It's never been anything near our previous bans in effectiveness or splashability, nor does it have other characteristics that would propel it to ban regardless.


Tl;DR
Complex Pidgeotite solution
- If banned, release Skymin and drai, suspect Deo-S
Different solution to quickbans
Do Not suspect test Blissey

 

[The Consort]

I'd like to clarify my point from earlier. If we're going to ban Pidgeotite because Zap Cannon is too powerful, then it makes far more sense to simply ban Zap Cannon, as it is the primary source of the problem (and is bad without No Guard, anyways). I am well aware that this was discussed earlier in the thread, but circumstances have changed. It's time for us to choose, and this choice will change the course that Mix and Mega takes.

If Pidgeotite as a stone is broken, then it has to be with the sleep moves. With a choice of all sleep moves or Pidgeotite, I would ban the stone. However, we've had very viable counterplay for a long while, and it isn't exactly narrow, either. We have a total of three stones with Magic Bounce: Absolite, Sablenite, and Diancite. While the latter of these stones is heavily prediction-based, the other two can be used in a great variety of roles. In particular, there is rarely a balance team without a Sablenite user (This is also one of the big reasons why the having two of the same stone is a bad idea). If one or more are already Mega Evolved, then it's actually a liability to simply throw out a Hypnosis. At best, your opponent gets momentum. At worst, a wrong prediction can single-handedly throw the game for the Pidgeotite user. And that's not mentioning that Pidgeotite doesn't grant so much speed in comparison to other stones.

And with this, I must also ask: is this stone's upside so high that it inherently causes the metagame to warp around it in an unhealthy matter? Or is Magic Bounce simply a powerful tool used by the vast majority of teams, anyways? I'd like you all to think about this long and hard, because the answer is going to influence Mix and Mega on a whole. We're at a turning point that we're questioning prior states of normality, so every answer is that much more important...

I agree with you that if Zap Cannon was the sole problem, then yes, we should ban that. However, sleep-inducing moves are causing problems as well. Oftentimes what happens with Pidgeotite users, like Xurkitree and Gengar (two of the most common ones now), is that they can run BOTH Zap Cannon and a sleep inducing move (Hypnosis in this case). One can inflict Paralysis and the other can induce Sleep. While Magic Bounce can get around Hypnosis, it can't inherently avoid the Paralysis from Zap Cannon alone, but rather Magic Bounce would need an Electric/Ground type, like Sablenite Zapdos.

As for some other points of your argument, Absolite and Diancite pokemon are not always the best answer to Pidgeotite pokemon due to Zap Cannon. Rather than putting them to sleep, the Pidgeotite user can cripple them, then finish them off with one of its coverage moves. Sure, Absolite/Diancite can pose an obstacle for Pidgeotite users, but neither stone exactly walls Pidgeotite unless on an Electric or Ground Pokemon, and even then "wall" only refers to Sleep and Paralysis. I don't find the "viable counterplay" to be as diverse as you imply.

Now the speed is a relevant point. Yes, in comparison to many other stones, Pidgeotite does not give much speed; however, webs can patch this up. And considering how Webs setters often run Mold Breaker via Amparosite/Gyaradosite, they can reliably set them up. Then the Pidgeotite user can come in and start doing its usual business, speed far less of an issue.

Something else to consider is that Pidgeotite grants the highest SpA boost of all of the megastones at +65. Now yes, Diancite does grant +60, but No Guard further increases the damage output of Pidgeotite users as most of the time BP of moves can go up with new moves that won't miss with things such as Thunderbolt vs Zap Cannon, Focus Blast vs Aura Sphere, Hydro Pump vs Scald/Surf, or Ice Beam vs Blizzard.

In the end, I still think that we should at least suspect Pidgeotite, if not just outright quickban it.

 

[Fardin]

putting ur checks into sleep and even stoping uturns with hypno is what makes pidg mons broken. deos was a special case due to its amazing speed and broken lead set. sure, zap is annoying but its not broken without a sleep moves or set up move like NP or tail glow.
also ban blissey and naga. pidg should be a suspect, not a qb. its too big of a decision for the council to make, imo let the community decide

 

[Haaku.]

hi mnm people, im here to give my own two cents on what's being discussed rn:

I want to quickban Pidgeotite.

Despite not being an avid Mix & Mega player, I really can't see why anyone can disagree with this. If you're leading an OM and multiple things get banned because of one single thing, by the 2nd or 3rd ban you should probably get the message that this "thing" is what's broken and not what's been banned. It's honestly bizarre to me how some people actually disagree with a Pidgeotite ban. Objectively speaking, +65 SpA and +20 Spe on top of making moves like Hypnosis, Zap Cannon, etc completely spammable isn't something we want in this metagame. Banning Pidgeotite would reintroduce otherwise healthy Pokemon like Shaymin-Sky and potentially Darkrai. An argument could even be made about Deoxys-Speed or even Naganadel's effect on the metagame without this stone present being reasonably balanced, so this should really say enough. As things stand, Pidgeotite is a broken stone. I'm sure this is universally agreed upon, but I guess some people have a different approach to "nerfing" Pidgeotite.

On Quickbanning Pidgeotite
Against this. Even leaving aside the time factor, banning stones on a quickban is to me even more of an issue than quickbanning Pokemon, by a large factor. It can be necessary, and just looking at our banlist I think it's pretty clear that it was several times, but I don't think Pidgeotite warrants it.

I really have to disagree with this. A quickban is a time-saver; it is used when it is clear that the majority of the community has decided whether they believe something is or isn't broken. The vast majority of the OM community has voiced their opinion on a Pidgeotite ban at this point so there's no reason to waste time on a suspect test that we all know the result to lol. You acknowledge the banlist and just how much Pidgeotite influences it, but yet it still "doesn't warrant it." I'm not sure how many more bans we need to warrant a Pidgeotite ban.

At the moment, the only thing I think can be considered remotely broken with Pidgeotite is Xurkitree

What about the Pokemon that have been banned purely because of Pidgeotite? They're not broken because they can't hold any other Mega Stones. By keeping Pidgeotite in the metagame, you're limiting the amount of viable options the metagame gets while simultaneously enabliing an incredibly centralizing stone that just about any special attacker can take advantage of.

tl;dr QUICKBAN PIDGEOTITE

 

[thepoolnerd]

I'm kind of sad to see that I put up a team & then immediately after 2 of the big things holding it up seemed to be put into question. That being said, I think it's pretty reasonable to question the overcentralization caused by pidgeotite, as well as the brokenness of Naganadel. Like mentioned in a bunch of previous posts, pidgrotite just makes extremely powerful moves all too spammable. As for Naganadel, even without pidgeotite, it's an extremely potent special sweeper, with access to stones like alakazite, diancite, or lucarionite.

TLDR: Pidgeotite is an easy quickban target, & Naganadel should at the very least have a close watch over it

 

[insaneguy1083]

A few hours ago I made a post on this thread expressing my opinions on Chloe's thoughts in a very simple way saying that I was gonna give further elaboration later, but 1. I was too lazy to actually do that and 2. Chloe later removed my post (I could see why since it really wasn't adding much to the conversation). I am here and now I have time to sit down and write a serious post on this matter, so here are my detailed thoughts.

I want to quickban Pidgeotite.

I wholeheartedly agree with this decision. All of the time, broken stuff is fun to use on your side, while your opponent has to suffer, and vice versa. Likewise, I had a lot of fun using Pidgeotite Deoxys-Speed and Gengar (as well as Xurkitree a few times), but in Round 1 of Mix and Mega Open, I lost to a person using a Webs Xurkitree team for two of the three games. (Not sure if it actually had webs) I was trying to run stall of one of them, the other was nothing special with no Diancite Naganadel or strong -atespeed. My third game I used a Diancite Naganadel and that was literally the only method I could circumvent being put to sleep and 6-0ed by Xurkitree. The only two ways to beat Pidgeotite users are either strong priority (where Aerilate is resisted by Xurkitree and Pixilate is resisted by Gengar), or things that outspeed them which, while there is a handful (like Metagrossite Kartana, Diancite Naganadel/Tapu Lele and previously Pidgeotite Deoxys-Speed, but beating broken with broken doesn't seem to be too good of an option), it can sweep a lot more slower mons (like Groudon-Primal) or status most of them using either Hypnosis or Zap Cannon. The only real method to not get statused by these two Pidgeotite users is to run a Magic Bounce stone + immunity to paralysis like using Sablenite Zapdos or Sablenite Hippowdon which are subpar compared to their actual sets. This may sound like a joke, but Mix and Mega is a skill-based metagame; most Pokemon like Sablenite Magearna or Venusaurite Hippowdon require skill to use in pivoting and predicting switches, etc. However Pidgeotite Xurkitree is a mon that requires little skill to use, like you can just Tail Glow, Hypnosis when the situation calls for it, add that to a 100% accuracy strong STAB and Grass Knot for coverage against things like Hippowdon and Groudon-Primal, and you've got a Pokemon that can easily 6-0 without needing to give regards to checks, counters and what not. And teams that basically lack -atespeed and/or extremely fast revenge sweepers can and will be swept by it. Stall teams basically mandate the use of Ditto; As such, we can classify Xurkitree, and Pidgeotite in general as overcentralizing. I personally hate it, and I'm sure the majority of the skilled Mix and Mega players will agree with this decision as well.

I want to unban Shaymin-Sky.

I fully agree with this thought. Shaymin-Sky was never too broken without Pidgeotite; same goes for Darkrai. When Pidgeotite gets banned, both could be viably reintroduced into the tier with their sets being mainly Absolite or Diancite or maybe even some niche Lucarionite set. Deoxys-Speed is another thing though. Gyaradosite allows it to become a very good hazard setter, but I find that much less detrimental to the tier than a strong and fast Special Attacker with viable boosting options, due to hazards being able to be removed by Defog/Rapid Spin. I personally don't find it too troubling, and as such I find it absolutely fine to reintroduce Shaymin-Sky, Darkrai and Deoxys-Speed into the tier once Pidgeotite has been banned.

I want to be more proactive with Uber Pokémon bans.

That is absolutely necessary. Again and again has Pokemon banned from OU proven to be too much for the tier, like with the case of Pheromosa and Marshadow. Another prime example is with my following response to the next point, being Naganadel.

I want to quickban Naganadel.

Naganadel has absolutely no reason to stay in the tier, other than being a Pokemon being able to revenge kill Pidgeotite Xurkitree, even with -1 Speed coming from Webs. Once Pidgeotite goes I really don't see any need in any fast revenge killers with over 170 base Speed due to Webs Xurkitree no longer being a thing. Other than being a fast Revenge Killer, it can also hit hard on just about anything with its few sets, including but not limited to: Zygarde, Magearna, Groudon-Primal, etc. It also gets a viable boosting option in Nasty Plot, which means that it can set up on stuff that it does not OHKO, like Blissey. It was fun to use for a while, but now it's just becoming stale, and like with the Pidgeotite users, it can only be viably defeated by priority or faster revenge killers, which since the removal of Deoxys-Speed no longer exists. So in short just remove Naganadel, please. It can literally kill anything and everything, and really, it restricts teambuilding choices greatly to disallow for some versatile teams.

I want to suspect test Blissey, if metagame trends follow as expected.

I have absolutely no problem with that. Blissey is really tanky and even when there are some Special attackers and most Physical attackers that can beat it, it still poses a problem against most teams, especially with few being able to status it. Its passivity is made up for in Seismic Toss, which deals great damage to things with low HP like Toxapex.

tl;dr qb pidge, free skymin + darkrai + deos, ban everything that gets banned from ou, qb naga, suspect bliss

 

[gmfc]

Normally, I don't participate in these kinds of threads, simply because I actively avoid smogon, however the main topic is something I've been pretty adamant about for awhile.

Pidgeotite: I'd prefer a poll on whether to sus test or quick ban, or at the very least a council vote, if there wasn't one already. It's just nice to see something being done about the stone rather than its abusers

Shaymin: At face value it shouldn't be broken, so I'm fine with an unban

Pheromosa: She was banned before Diancite was released and was a top tier sweeper even before pidg was released, so admittedly I'm a bit wary. Allowing one of the fastest mons in the meta essentially free afterburners could spell trouble.

Darkrai: Sames as with Skymin, shouldn't be too much of a problem for the meta to adjust to.

Deoxys-Speed: Keep it banned, it'd just be a really annoying setter/suicide lead anyways, something it does decently well on its own

Uber-Proactive: I trust the the council's judgement when it comes to allowing ubers, so I have no issues if they tighten their grip a little.

Naganadel: If council becomes more proactive or if pidgeotite is banned, then this should be the first mon tested, considering a pidg ban would knock Xurkitree off his perch. However, this calls into question how broken darkrai/skymin could truly be, which would just result in them potentially being banned again...

Blissey: One of the few mons that everyone has a check for, I can't see it being that much more of an issue if pidg does actually get banned.

 

[Vhayle]

About the Pidgeotite Suspect/Quickban, I think that Zap Cannon is the main problem of the stone: Genesect, Xurkitree and Gengar (and by an extend Zapdos and Starmie) benefits from the stone by Zap Cannon. As Chazm said, 100% Hypnosis isn't that much of a problem with the Sablenite/Diancite usages... again except for Xurkitree, which puts way too much pressure in teambuilding.

A Zap Cannon suspect/quickban seems way better than banning a stone solely for a move that is the center of the problem. (because it's certainly not Dynamic Punch, Blizzard or Hypnosis, and Lucarionite gives virtually more SpA courtesy of Adaptability)


If Pidgeotite is banned, Shaymin-Sky and Darkrai are obviously not broken anymore. I think that (almost) everyone will agree.
Deoxys-Speed is sure the best suicide lead of the game with Gyaradosite, but I think that a Suicide Lead can't be broken in its whole, at least in MnM (sure, DeoS is broken in PU). Sure, he will get Rocks up and maybe a layer of Spikes, but... i mean, it is what he's supposed to do. Do we ban an offensive mon because he "hits hard"? A good player will stop DeoS before he can set up a layer of spikes, and if the opponent switches out to bring out DeoS later, you have time to Spin/Defog and he will have to set up rocks again.

If only Zap Cannon is banned, i don't know if DeoS will still be broken. He looses one of its main weapon, but he still gets an excellent speed tier and unmatched revenge killing skills with NP+FB/Psycho Boost/Ice Beam. So... maybe


About Naganadel, I'm totally alright to quickban it. Everything has already been said, so i'll make it fast



About a Blissey suspect... i'll have a lot of things to say about it (i think), let's see

Today, Blissey isn't broken. he's very passive and has to inflict damages with Seismic Toss and Toxic, leaving him harmless against most of the Aggronite and Sablenite users + the 404HP Sub offensive mons like Zygarde. He's a setup fodder for every physically offensive mons with setup moves, and even some special attackers can go through De Blob with Nasty Plot, Substitute/Calm Mind or Pain Split/everything Magearna sets. He can be knocked out by putting a lot of offensive pressure in general, and even more if rocks are up.
Chloe, i think you're overrating Stall. It's really hard to play stall, because it's heavily matchup dependant these times. If you see a Manaphy, you have 50% chance to autolose depending on the set. Blissey Offenses really are a pain to Stall archetypes because most of the time, Blissey will Wish pass to the wallbreakers before that the Stall team could knock them out because of its passive nature. There's always big problems to Stall teams because of sets like Red Orb Togekiss/Naganadel/Raikou, Diancite Naganadel, Perish Song Arceus, Pidgeotite Xurkitree, that are non-issues for Stall teams most of the time, except if you play like a God with Ditto. Or if you win all the 50/50s. I've seen 1 stall team in the whole month personnally, and a well-builded team will have the tools to deal with stall at anytime. As a (past) stall player in MnM, Stall isn't viable anymore in Mix&Mega, or at least gl on matchups.
If we ban Naganadel and Pidgeotite, it will be a breath for stall teams, but does stall will become unbeatable? I don't think so, but we will see. I think that literally destroying a playstyle isn't that much of a good idea, even more when the only other viable Clerics in the metagame are Clefable and Lickilicky, which are bad mons in general. But if stall becomes unbeatable, i'll be alright with a Blissey suspect.

tl;dr By banning Zap Cannon, we nerf Pidgeotite and let Stall be a playable playstyle: not unbeatable, not unviable.
If Pidgeotite's banned: Unban Darkrai, Deoxys-Speed and Shaymin-Sky
If Zap Cannon's banned: Don't ban/unban anything else
If Pidgeotite AND Zap Cannon aren't banned, Ban Xurkitree
Quickban Naganadel
Blissey isn't broken before and after a Zap Cannon Ban. After a Pidgeotite ban, we will see (but I think it will never be banned)

 

[Chloe]

I appreciate all the responses to my initial post, and I'm glad to see a lot of you have strong opinions on what should occur within the metagame. I am quite content with many of the suggestions; however, a few posts stand out as subpar solutions. May I also add that many people misunderstood the point I was making about Blissey, ignoring the attached conditional. The amount of posts that didn't pay attention to what was said and started to mention that we should "see what happens rather than what was proposed" in accordance to Blissey was quite irritating. We share the same opinion! Don't attack me over my mention of a potential Blissey suspect test!

I want to cover my view on some of the suggested solutions to the current issue within the metagame without banning Pidgeotite. I agree with some more than others but overall disagree that any of the proposed solutions are better than outright banning the mega stone itself.

• Zap Cannon - this is one of the more silly solutions that has been suggested. Xurkitree's wallbreaking abilities do not rely on paralysis, nor do they necessarily always prefer to have an opponent paralysed. Without Zap Cannon, Xurkitree still has access to Thunder, Tail Glow and Hypnosis which is all it needs to bust past defensive walls like Blissey without much difficulty. The ability to wall Xurkitree still remains an issue, nor do any of the other prevalent Zap Cannon abusers really suffer. Gengar often prefers to sleep its opponents, and Genesect and Mew both have enough special coverage to survive as obnoxiously powerful metagame threats. Additionally, the argument that Hypnosis is nullified by Magic Bounce is uncanny; Xurkitree still overpowers most Sablenite walls with the use of Tail Glow and its high powered STAB. Zap Cannon makes these aforementioned threats a tiny bit better; however, its not the only reason for their potency.
• Xurkitree, Sleep or Xurkitree, Hypnosis - this is my favourite alternate solution to outright banning Pidgeotite as it does eliminate a lot of the current issues within the metagame. There are still many issues with it however. Firstly, it still allows Pokémon like Pidgeotite Mew and Genesect and to a much lesser extent Keldeo and Tapu Koko to wreak havoc onto the meta, which are somewhat unjustifiable to keep around. Secondly, Xurkitree isn't even the sole overpowered abuser which has been established, but many of the remaining threats don't even rely on sleep. If we did choose to follow this trail however there would still be some issues with it. Banning sleep outright seems quite obscure considering it's limiting the game to four status ailments and taking away a massive concept within the game. Banning Hypnosis seems a lot more feasible as it's only one move and the majority of broken sleep abusers use it as their inducer. The issue would later arise of something as silly as Grass Whistle Whimsicott or Sing Jolteon screwing over the meta and that's not really something I want to deal with. The upsides of banning Pidgeotite severely outweigh the downsides, there's no need for multiple bans such as this, or this with the addition of Zap Cannon.
• Xurkitree - for a few blatant reasons this isn't an appropriate solution. Xurkitree encompasses all that is wrong with Pidgeotite; however, isn't the sole abuser nor much more broken than the other abusers. Pokémon such as Pidgeotite Gengar, Mew and Genesect are by definition uncompetitive, and Pokémon that abuse their access to low accuracy moves with high power like Keldeo to easily avoid the facade of only 65 Special Attack being added are also quite questionable for us to retain within the metagame. People will make the argument that Pidgeotite is only a slight boost in power over Diancite without considering the added power that No Guard adds as an ability. You can now afford to run Focus Blast and Hydro Pump as your main STAB attacks without worrying about your imminent demise. While I've strayed from the point a little, I want to stress that the overpowered nature of Pidgeotite is not exclusive to one or two common Pokémon but has the ability to make hundreds of Pokémon an issue. This constant cycle of us saying a Pokémon is the last broken abuser of Pidgeotite, then following with the introduction of another "broken" threat is tiring and unnecessary. It happens everytime. Prior to the Deoxys-Speed suspect many were of the belief that Xurkitree was hot garbage, look at the overall consensus now. Banning Xurkitree will not solve the issue this metagame has with Pidgeotite.
• Sleep - this is somewhat acceptable as a quick side thought; however, fixes none of the aforementioned issues bar Gengar, which isn't one of the more broken abusers of the stone. Xurkitree doesn't require anything bar its access to Tail Glow, a high powered STAB attack and some sort of speed control if it's against an offensive or balanced archetype.
• Tail Glow - I admire your courage but no. Fortunately this was only suggested in the OM room a few times and not on this thread.

Then there's the added concern of a quickban versus a suspect test. I will be the first to admit that I am somewhat biased towards wanting to quickban anything that isn't extremely questionable, and in this case it might not be the right place to implement a quickban; however, I do feel as if we've spammed way too many suspects and bans for this mega stone already. All three (four if you count Pheromosa but you shouldn't) have conveyed the consensus that Pidgeotite creates a broken Pokémon. When the only other issues that have really arisen since Pidgeotite's release are Naganadel and Marshadow, Pokémon that didn't even exist until months after, you kind of wonder if it has an overcentralising or negative impact on the metagame. I think we can all agree that it hasn't aided it more than it has hurt it. The abusers limit this metagame and prevent it from being the balanced wholesome metagame it deserves to be. A metagame where people aren't forced to run Sablenite Blissey and monstrosities like Sceptilite Jirachi to wall common metagame threats. Don't you miss the time when our biggest offensive worries were Absolite Manaphy and Metagrossite Mimikyu? The power creep, while impossible to limit has created a power vacuum where Pidgeotite overwhelms any other possible mega stone you could use. As I've stated time and time again throughout this post, Pidgeotite is unhealthy.

So that this whole post isn't me complaining about Pidgeotite, may I state that if Pidgeotite goes I'm fine with letting Darkrai return on the condition that we can quickban if it somehow continues to present issues (I doubt it will but it's still a valid criticism). I'm also adamant that Naganadel should go and it seems as if most agree with that sentiment so considering how the discussion following this goes with the council and with the general community a consensus will be reached. As mentioned earlier, I appreciate the discussion and suggestions. Please keep it up and feel free to refute anything I said here if you disagree. Thanks for your continued support!