ZeroPlasmaFist
Banned deucer.
ye fine(but why would alt zygarde run only 4 hp?)
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You're correct that Alt Zygarde usually doesn't run only 4 hp. The only instances I could see it forgoing hp would be max speed jolly on webs, any situation where you want to outspeed Diancite Lele after a DD or laziness. The sad things is, Mega Rayquaza's surprisingly strong bulk can come into play if Alt Zygarde is jolly nature as extreme speed doesn't even guaranteed KO at full!
(252 Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 330-390 (94 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO)
In the unlikely but horrible situation that Mega Ray is at +2 at full with a lum berry and you're relying on Alt Zygarde to take it down and it gets the low roll, you instantly lose your zygarde and likely the game. Because even without a life orb, Mega Rayquaza doesn't need to rely on a roll at +2 to take down a no-bulk Alt Zygarde.
(+2 252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 372-438 (103.9 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO *180 attack privilege amirite?)
The most common hp spread I see Alt Zygarde running would be 40 hp to have a very good chance to tank a Fairyceus judgement without rocks up while still maintaining the benchmark speed to outspeed adamant base 90 speed mons like P-don.
Regardless, the calcs don't change in a noticeable way with 40 vs 4 hp.
(+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 484-569 (131.8 - 155%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
(+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 214-253 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
While I am likely leaving out bulkier spreads Alt Zygarde could run, that definitely doesn't change the fact that Mega Rayquaza is completely busted in this meta and will mercifully stay on the banlist for the foreseeable future.
ZeroPlasmaFist
Banned deucer.
it's usually 48 hp and 252+ attack and 216 speed, so zygarde can ohko.
also, i'd already admitted that i was wrong so u don't need to rub it in any more
There isn't room for 48 hp with max attack adamant and 216 speed. It only has room for 40 hp and then like you said, 252+ attack and 216 speed. I'm not trying to rub anything in, i'm just clarifying that Multi's calcs don't really change if Zygarde's hp is 4 or 40, and trying to further the case for how Mega-Ray would be overwhelming, that's all.
When Zeraora gets released will it be fully available to use stones right away or will there be a waiting period/ insta ban?
Probably same as Stakataka/Blacephalon/Nagadadel where it is released immediately with full stone access, especially considering Zeraora is nowhere as good as the others and probably won't have a powerful place in the meta.
In that case, I made a bunch of sets for it. Most are physical sweepers with plasma fists as a staple move.
Zeraora @ Lopunnite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Plasma Fists
- Fake Out
Zeraora @ Blue Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 164 Atk / 92 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Thunder
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power [Water]
Zeraora @ Pinsirite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- Close Combat
- Plasma Fists
Zeraora @ Charizardite X
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Close Combat
- Fake Out
- Plasma Fists
Zeraora @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Throat Chop
- Thunder Wave
- Plasma Fists
Zeraora @ Banettite
Ability: Volt Absorb
- Substitute
- Plasma Fists
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
Any thoughts on these are greatly appreciated.
Zeraora @ Lopunnite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Plasma Fists
- Fake Out
Zeraora @ Blue Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 164 Atk / 92 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Thunder
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power [Water]
Zeraora @ Pinsirite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- Close Combat
- Plasma Fists
Zeraora @ Charizardite X
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Close Combat
- Fake Out
- Plasma Fists
Zeraora @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Throat Chop
- Thunder Wave
- Plasma Fists
Zeraora @ Banettite
Ability: Volt Absorb
- Substitute
- Plasma Fists
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
Any thoughts on these are greatly appreciated.
The Lopunnite Zeraora set should probably look like this
Zeraora @ Lopunnite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
-Plasma Fists
-Close Combat
-Drain Punch/Throat Chop
-Bulk Up
Fake Out is too weak to be used if you aren't running -ate. Knock Off is just shit in MnM. If this thing had Ice Punch I would use it, but it doesn't, and HP Ice is too weak from an unboosted and uninvested 102 base special attack. Electric/Fighting with Scrappy is great coverage on its own, so you could just run STABs, but Throat Chop has niche applications against some Psychics. Bulk Up is your best boosting move and can potentially allow you to take Aerilate Extreme Speeds and cheese past Groudon. I wouldn't run any other stone other than Lopunnite and Pinsirite, the others make Zeraora too slow/or too weak.
Zeraora @ Lopunnite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
-Plasma Fists
-Close Combat
-Drain Punch/Throat Chop
-Bulk Up
Fake Out is too weak to be used if you aren't running -ate. Knock Off is just shit in MnM. If this thing had Ice Punch I would use it, but it doesn't, and HP Ice is too weak from an unboosted and uninvested 102 base special attack. Electric/Fighting with Scrappy is great coverage on its own, so you could just run STABs, but Throat Chop has niche applications against some Psychics. Bulk Up is your best boosting move and can potentially allow you to take Aerilate Extreme Speeds and cheese past Groudon. I wouldn't run any other stone other than Lopunnite and Pinsirite, the others make Zeraora too slow/or too weak.
IMO, Zeraora wants Toxic over Bulk Up - it at least makes it deal damage to the many pivots that can easily switch in on it, like Zygarde and Landorus-Therian. HP Ice sounds fun for sniping these - maybe Glalitite might become one of its sets through those means, but IMO such a set is under heavy competition by Tapu Koko. Speaking of which, I don't think Zera will probably be worth more than B- - despite its Lopunnite set being surprisingly fast, it doesn't seem worth it compared to the other speed control options I could run - Naga, Skymin, Darkrai, heck, even Lucario I think is better speed control
Naganadel is being suspect tested (finally): https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3632455/
I have a simple question for everyone.
Why Deoxys-S still ban after the pidgeotite ban ?
Why Deoxys-S still ban after the pidgeotite ban ?
ZeroPlasmaFist
Banned deucer.
gyaradosite deo-s is easily the best suicide setup lead, and can easily set up rocks, spikes, even a toxic on annoying mons. it would become amazingly popular and annoying, for teams that rely on sticky web so can't run defog. it would also open up another moveslot for mons like primal groudon, who usually run stealth rocks, probably swords dance, rock polish or if you're running very bulky groudon: rest. The same goes for skarmory, landorus-t etc
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No. It reverts to normal Greninja, then Mega Evolves.
That's terrible but so well balanced.
Similarly if Meloetta megas it changes back to its default form, and if it transforms after it megas, it keeps the new ability, but loses the mega stone's stat boosts.
don't mind me just dumping a team
Jirachi-Mega (Magearna) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Soul-Heart
Happiness: 0
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pain Split
- Iron Head
- Frustration
- Shift Gear
Volcarona-Water (Golisopod) @ Blue Orb
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance
- Liquidation
- Drill Run
>precipice blades (Azelf) @ Red Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot
- Dazzling Gleam
No U (Lycanroc) @ Diancite
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 40 HP / 216 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Substitute
- Endeavor
Super Ekans (Zygarde) @ Altarianite
Ability: Aura Break
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Hidden Power [Fire]
#1 Wincon (Xerneas) @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 148 HP / 252 SpA / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt
Ability: Soul-Heart
Happiness: 0
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pain Split
- Iron Head
- Frustration
- Shift Gear
Volcarona-Water (Golisopod) @ Blue Orb
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance
- Liquidation
- Drill Run
>precipice blades (Azelf) @ Red Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot
- Dazzling Gleam
No U (Lycanroc) @ Diancite
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 40 HP / 216 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Substitute
- Endeavor
Super Ekans (Zygarde) @ Altarianite
Ability: Aura Break
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Hidden Power [Fire]
#1 Wincon (Xerneas) @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 148 HP / 252 SpA / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt
Magearna in MnM
wow 2mcuh text 4 meHuge thanks to Chazm for the immense help he gave me to make this, you're cool bro, and xavgb 'cause he loves Magearna
In a tier where Groudon-Primal and Zygarde reign supreme, one may wonder why Magearna happens to be so powerful in the same metagame.
The idea lies in it's extraordinary diversity, and its incredible splashability. With the right stone, and the right team, Magearna can defeat anything in this metagame.
It doesn't come as a surprise that common situations in a battle that Magearna vs Magearna comes into play, and surprisingly, Magearna happens to be the best check to other variants there is.
Whether it be Cameruptite thunderbolting Pinsirite, or Sablenite swapping Cameruptite's boosts, you may never know what the opponent will do with a Magearna on their side.
Cameruptite (Magearna) @ Cameruptite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split
Magearna’s bread and butter. One of the best checks to a plethora of anti-offense Pokemon, like Arceus-Ghost / Flying, and the most brutal forme to deal with, having a grand total of two effective counters (Ho-oh and Confide Blissey).
In the state of the current metagame, Cameruptite Magearna is near-essential for Bulky Offense, as it cannot afford to lose to common supportive Pokemon - particularly Arceus-Ghost, which is able to tear through teams without a good Ghost resist. Arceus-Ghost also happens to have particularly good usage as an Arceus forme, which makes Magearna’s niche even more viable in this case, where it is the only variant that can actually handle Arceus-Ghost, as other variants just get chipped or burned. It also acts as an offensive check to Lunala - you have to burn Z move, but after that is gone, Lunala has no way to defeat Cameruptite Magearna if it has Shadow Ball and Shadow Shield is eliminated. For something that antagonizes offensive teams so much without a momentum-losing Dark type, Magearna shows itself to be above the rest.
Cameruptite OO (Magearna) @ Cameruptite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Trick Room
Eternal Phantom (Magearna) @ Cameruptite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Calm Mind
- Trick Room
OTR + CM is a solid sweeper if you’re willing to cope with that chance that you could miss Focus Blast. Wish support is really loved here - it helps Magearna check things as if it were a Split variant, and gives it a few more chances at sweeping. This is also the only specially attacking variant that can actually blow through a Blissey with the correct speed IVs - it is recommended that you try to outspeed Bliss outside TR instead of in TR for this reason. You do, however, need to have some rather good luck, especially with hitting Blasts.
+3 252+ SpA Sheer Force Magearna Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 574-676 (88.1 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+3 252+ SpA Sheer Force Magearna Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 662-780 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
This variant also has its own unique utility over Split variants - the ability to use Darkrai as setup bait is greatly appreciated from any team, especially looking at how good it is of a check via typing.
Pivot (Magearna) @ Sablenite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Heart Swap
- Pain Split
Sablenite is the pivot’s bread and butter. Whilst it faces some challenges with who wants what stone, Sablenite happens to be the perfect variant for doing Magearna things. It also happens to check most variants of Magearna very well.
Pivot OO (Magearna) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Soul-Heart
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Flash Cannon
For other options for the pivot set, a mono-attacking set is viable. Specifically with Venusaurite, it helps with the offense matchup vs Ho-oh and Entei, whilst providing a stallbreaker as well as an offensive wincon, invalidating practically all standard checks bar Groudon-Primal and strong Ground types. Sablenite is also usable with such a set - it helps a LOT more with defensive matchups, particularly doing good at invalidating certain checks like Blissey, but it does have a worse matchup vs Entei and Ho-oh, and is easily forced out by Victini.
OO 2 (Magearna) @ Latiasite
Ability: Soul-Heart
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
Latiasite is able to exploit the many Ground-types in the metagame with its own CM set, however, such a set is heavily challenged by Pinsirite Magearna for its role compression. This generally makes Latiasite undesirable unless you really need the Dark-type check
OO 3 (Magearna) @ Manectite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
Manectite is a rather niche stone for Magearna, however, it does have a few qualities that make it very viable as a mixed pivot. For example, it handles -atespeed Zygarde, Pinsirite Magearna, and Kartana better than any other variant, and is the only variant that is also able to offensively check Terrakion. Its niche on teams mainly resides as a Xerneas check combined with an -ate Zygarde check, which is heavily rivalled by Aggronite Mew, with the exception that Magearna is also able to handle Darks and Ghosts much better than Aggronite Mew, which is used as setup bait vs Arceus-Flying, etc.
OO 4 (Magearna) @ Blue Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 SpD
Bold Nature
Ability: Soul-Heart
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Heart Swap
- Pain Split
Blue Orb is one of the most frustrating Magearna sets… ever. It is able to check near enough 70% of the metagame, and of course, Ground-types are the best way to deal with such an efficient role compressor. But with those gone, Magearna just freely gets a pivot on anything and allows for the next recipient to revenge kill or bait its opponent. The role compression Magearna provides by checking prominent offensive threats like Entei and Ho-oh make it a ridiculously good idea for a teamslot, specifically on a Buzzwole + Blissey core, as very few mons are capable of breaking such a core.
Shift Gear (Magearna) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Shift Gear
- Substitute / Heal Bell
- Pain Split
Pinsirite is a purely innovative set that takes most of Magearna’s counters and puts them in the trash. It happens to be a brilliant Ground check as well as one of the best role compressors in Mix and Mega, being a cleric and a sweeper in one. It also happens to be a decent stallbreaker, although it is recommended that you pair it with something like mixed SD Groudon-Primal to support its breaking capabilities by using its checks as fodder.
CM Split OO (Magearna) @ Houndoominite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 60 HP / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split
Houndoominite Magearna is a rather odd Pokemon. It abuses the ubitiquity of Red Orbs that are used to check it and fires back with Solar Power boosted Shadow Balls able to 2HKO every relevant target, bar most variants of PDon, which force it out only once.
CM Split OO 2 (Magearna) @ Manectite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fleur Cannon
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split
Offensive CM Split Magearna is also another option - Manectite is able to act as an offensive check to -atespeed Zygarde, and also does a similar role to what Houndoominite does. It also happens to be able to nuke most Grounds with Fleur Cannon and win against them 1v1:
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. +1 36 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 168-198 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pain Split: 293 HP min, 278 HP max
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 349-412 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (349, 354, 358, 363, 366, 370, 375, 379, 382, 387, 391, 396, 399, 403, 408, 412)
(do note that if Magearna is faster, the chance is reduced to 87.5% if no hazards are up)
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Gliscor: 345-406 (97.4 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Hippowdon: 408-481 (97.1 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Word of warning: SpD PDon is able to switch in twice, so a momentum gainer like Defog Salamence-Mega is a good partner for this set.
You may have not been able to see it, but Magearna warps the entire MnM metagame around it and is responsible for numerous shifts in the tier. Magearna was one of the only counters to Naganadel, with Blue Orb Ferrothorn and Ho-Oh. The recent surge in usage of Buzzwole and Ho-Oh comes from the ubiquity of Magearna, and BlissBuzz cores are popular atm notably because it’s a core that can counter Magearna (and this if Magearna isn’t running one of the many sets that can withstand to this core). The only good reasoning why Primal-Groudon is S rank is that he’s good against BlissBuzz + Blue Orb Magearna and can counter defensive sets of, as you may expect, Magearna.
Magearna is able to bust through its counters depending on which set it’s running, letting him choose its rare counters and let their team eliminate them. It puts an amazing pressure in teambuilding, forcing you to run at least 2 or 3 solid checks (not counters, just checks. nothing can truly counter Magearna.) to Magearna if you want to counter the most part of its sets - and sometimes this isn’t even enough. Primal-Groudon is a solid counter to defensive sets and a good volt-blocker but is dented hard by Cameruptite sets, as well as by Pinsirite variants (especially if it isn’t carrying a Fire move!), Zygarde can be a solid check but can’t come in against Magearna fearing Fleur Cannon and Ice Beam and can lose to Manectite or Trick Room variants. Magearna also happens to be a solid check to -ate for this reason. Buzzwole is a solid check to most of Magearna’s sets but it gets hit hard by Cameruptite’s Focus Blast and is unable to reliably stand against Sub+Pain Split Pinsirite sets. These sets can counter precise checks, and despite that, they are still totally viable in all situations and they aren’t completely niche sets.
Every set of Magearna can counter a sizable part of the metagame and you never know what set of Magearna is against you when you see it at teampreview, meaning that if you mispredict the set of Magearna, you can lose one of your supposed counters which works against another set. And with so many viable sets, it happens with consistency, especially if a team is unknown to the player.
No Pokémon can truly counter Magearna with this plethora of sets at its disposal. We have to opt for Buzzwole+Blissey cores that is one of the only ways to counter all sets of Magearna. Ho-oh + Buzzwole is another core that can handle Magearna, but they are both vulnerable to pivot because of loss of momentum. And that’s when the best thing in Pokémon comes along: you have a team of other Pokemon to support Magearna that can take on all of the minor problems Magearna has over its overwhelming reward. BlissBuzz cores are easily pressured by common and solid Pokémon in MnM in the like of Primal-Groudon for example. Mixed sets with Swords Dance force out Buzzwole and Blissey, as well as its common partner, Blue Orb Magearna. However, this does not mean game over vs Groudon-Primal - a Dragon is usually a strong counter to it, and because of that fourth defensive Pokemon, it is completely unable to break the core at all. (prominent examples include MegaMence, Arceus-Dragon and Zygarde-Complete) This doesn't even note down the many variations of Magearna that can be used alongside these sorts of defensive cores. Pinsirite Magearna + Wish Blissey is an extremely potent supportive core because of its ability to split Blissey's roles, allowing it to utilize the ability to wishpass. This also makes it a very solid foundation for balance, especially when paired with strong Entei counterplay (i.e Groudon-Primal).
What makes it even worse for prediction, is that even if you know Magearna’s stone it is not always noticeable what set it could be running. Sablenite Magearna can run CM > Heart Swap rather viably because of its ridiculous SpD - this allows it to become a solid wincon vs stall teams alike, because even if it cannot boost up without being forced out, it can abuse that opportunity with Volt Switch. Venu / Blue Orb can do a similar job and end up using Ho-oh and Entei as setup bait, which can be fatal to some teams hoping to use it as their strongest Magearna check. Of course, one might consider the low usage of these sets and wonder ‘Is it ever worth prepping for it this much when nobody uses it?’ The same reasoning has been used against Magearna - niche sets supposedly ‘counter’ it and yet nobody uses such a thing. To prep for all Magearna sets is a near impossible feat - you are bound to lose to one variant, one way or another.
Teammates:
Magearna has exquisite synergy with most of the metagame, being able to use these threats against a team to cover a wide range of the metagame in two Pokemon.
BuzzBliss + Blue Orb Magearna:
This recently emerging core has been noted down a few times, and it’s already been shown to be nearly unbreakable. This core is only threatened by a few adept Fire-attackers - Mixed SD Groudon-Primal, CB Ho-oh, Blue Orb Golisopod (can eventually muscle through Buzzwole, but it’s difficult), PerishTrap Arceus-Ground, . The initial problem with BuzzBliss is fixed by adding a pivot to the mix, being able to check the Fire-types that the core already struggles with, as well as dealing with Xerneas more consistently, and providing more insurance against Magearna cores (i.e Cam Mage + Flyceus). Adding a Dragon such as Salamence-Mega (another core on this list) makes the defensive core near unbreakable by effectively spreading a Groudon-Primal counter across three Pokemon, as well as strengthening the MU v Ho-oh and Golisopod.
CM Split Magearna + Salamence-Mega:
Salamence-Mega helps against the momentum loss that Magearna provides by giving a strong switchin to Groudon-Primal and Ho-oh, and also provides Defog support, compressing a fair bit for a team. The decline of Arceus-Ground’s usage makes this core less likely to be threatened by the average team, and the weakness to such is also easily fixed by another special tank, preferrably Ho-oh, to deal with HP Ice Groudon-Primal and Magearna.
Cameruptite Magearna + Red Orb Victini + Blue Orb Golisopod:
A surprisingly potent TR core that uses Cameruptite Magearna’s passive matchups against their targets. Blue Orb Golisopod checks Groudon-Primal for the other two, whilst Cameruptite Magearna walls and nukes the Dragons that counter both. It also helps that this core is pseudo-FWG. This has a lot of defensive utility as well - Magearna checks both Ghostceus and Flyceus, two mons that beat the others, Golisopod beats the Grounds that ruin both, and Victini beats the steels that can wall both.
Cameruptite Magearna + Arceus-Flying:
This is a good core that can pressure everything out of Blissey. If Magearna happens to be OTR + CM, it can also bust through Blissey, making the MU for Flyceus so much better, especially if it was their only Flyceus check. OTR + CM also uses Blue Orb Magearna as bait alongside it, allowing for the two to inevitably demolish defensive counterplay and let one of the two win. Again, Wish support is brilliant for this core
Pivot Magearna + Lucarionite Zygarde:
Here’s another example of a generic ‘PDon check + pivot’ core. Not only is Lucarionite Zygarde more offensive than MMence, but it is not immediate bait for Arceus-Ground either, and is able to bait all passive matchups bar the aforementioned Pokemon. Magearna cannot be voltblocked, unless the opponent wishes to give Lucarionite Zygarde a free switch, and especially when paired with Toxic Spikes, this core finds it increasingly easy to break necks. Gyaradosite Toxapex is a fairly good core partner, considering it can set TSpikes on Magic Bounce and counter Lunala, which is another problematic Pokemon for this core to deal with.
Pinsirite Magearna + Zygarde-Complete:
In the same way that MMence + Cam Mage works, this is another core that abuses Magearna’s healing abilities combined with Rest to check a huge majority of the metagame in just two Pokemon. If you can fit it on Zygarde, Coil really helps vs some of the Steels that Magearna just struggles to beat, and all of the other Pokemon that Zygarde struggles to beat, Magearna can usually handle, bar Buzzwole. The fact that Zygarde just brings in so many other Pokemon that Magearna can handle makes the core less of a loss of momentum as well, only really being punished by pixilate Espeeders with SE Steel coverage, which can be fixed with something like your own Buzzwole, which is also assisted by the cleric role. Brilliant balance core, like the ones shown above.
OTR + CM replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-738151341 Replay 1 - Magearna catches an Azelf off guard by clicking Trick Room, and claims two mons, whilst fending off Pinsirite Magearna
OO 4 (Blue Orb Pivot)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-738587438 Replay 2 - Magearna totally blocks an Entei, pivots into Zygarde letting him RK, and then blocks Genesect who cannot Blaze Kick/Flamethrower
Overall, it cannot be denied - Magearna is an absolute monster in the metagame, taking from all of the Pokemon that can support it and placing it into one very splashable package.
Chazm's opinion: It is an extremely diverse Pokemon which is something that can be put on any team to deal with the strengthening of offensive threats like Lunala and Ghostceus that have no resistances on offense, because of the heavily Fairy based metagame that Magearna also places pressure on. Its extraordinary role compression from absolutely every set just makes it so much more worth it than even difficult to take on wallbreakers like Groudon-Primal and Lucarionite Zygarde.
Vhayle's opinion: Its name is versatiliy. Magearna has no safe counterplays, and its unpredictability coming from the diversity of its stones and sets is Magearna's major strengh. Being able to perform both defensive and offensive extremely well only ads to its power and he will always find a place in any Mix&Mega team.
If you read this entirely, thanks, because it was very long, and feel free to send your opinion about this ;
First of all, thank you for your analysis on Magearna ( Maybe he misses some replays to show the strength of the surprise with this pokémon? )
I agree with you on almost all your comment. When you said that P-Groudon was played to counter BuzzBliss, I don't think it's true. I believe that P-Groudon is the KING of this metagame, with or without Magearna.
When I read yours arguments on the power of Magearna in MnM, I've seen that every argument could be apply for P-Groudon. (everyone considering him during the teambuilding and uses 2/3 checks. I said checks because a true counter doesn't exist (Blue Orb Skarmory is coming, play Thunder). P-Groudon has exquisite synergy with most of the metagame, being able to use these threats against a team to cover a wide range of the metagame in two Pokemon. (Golisopod/P-Groudon , Tapu Lele/ P-Groudon , etc )
Being able to perform both defensive and offensive extremely well only ads to its power and he will always find a place in any Mix&Mega team.
I don't say that P-Groudon needs to be ban. It's just that his presence is a beneficiary for the tier. As Magearna I think. Because Magearna can check a lot of dangerous threat in this meta and without him, I believe the tier will be worse.
Finally, I want to say that OU has the exact same problem, which means a lot of players believes that Magearna is too polyvalent and broken for the tier. And as in MnM, the KING of OU destroy him like the KING of MnM destroy him.
It's quite ironic no ?
As much as what you say is true, I'm not convinced that Groudon-Primal is the king of the metagame. It's clearly not getting banned - that's evident in the fact that it has common checks with great utility that can be stringed together to form a counter, not just the fact that one mon can potentially invalidate it. Cores are easy to splash on, and as I have said, common variants such as SD + Stealth Rock are simply not good enough in this metagame to carry on breaking. Groudon-Primal is extremely constrained for moveslots and for spreads - it simply cannot run Stealth Rock viably anymore, due to the strong prevalence of Blissey +flying Defoggers, such as Gliscor and Salamence-Mega. Near true counters like Mence and Dragonceus do exist, as well as Iron Defense Arceus-Water and Blue Orb Celebi / Buzzwole, true counters to the core. Whilst some of these are admittedly rather niche, Pokemon with this sort of role compression that can reliably answer Magearna / Zygarde simply do not exist, and are limited to a few niche checks. Every mon has their checks and counters... but as we have said, Magearna is the only one to properly lack a true counter (able to switch in after Stealth Rock)
You do say that Groudon-Primal is particularly strong defensively, but I am adamant to disagree. Groudon-Primal requires some sort of Wish support or cleric support + Rest to actually have a chance of switching into what it checks multiple times, and its exploitable moveslot syndrome from this makes it bait for the likes of Sablenite Blissey, which can just use it to wishpass if it desires to do so. Whilst it's one of the few answers to Entei, both variants are capable of pressuring it, and as such, due to this nature of pressuring checks, and the fact that it has so many mons that can just overload its limited HP makes it so that PDon is only really comparable to both using its mixed SD set - as I said, even this isn't counterless. Zygarde and Magearna come closest to being counterless, and their defensive capabilities are also better. For example, Lucarionite Zygarde is one of the best offensive Groudon-Primal checks due to being a self-sustaining sweeper with Substitute + Pain Split, allowing it to check th majority of things that PDon can do, with a few exceptions either side. It's good, but better Pokemon exist, and this is what we're trying to bring across - its lack of recovery is really what stops it, to be honest. If it did get, say, Shore Up, I'd be convinced, but it's honestly quite easy to offensively check and counter now, and obviously because of the direct abundance of them, most players are choosing to go with the first path. That still doesn't change how little Groudon-Primal can do to a solid defensive core.
(Just so you know - Thunder is an unset but Smack Down is not, and that's the most constraining thing about PDon rn. The problen with this is that it makes a few checks much stronger (see: Golisopod, which takes 31 from Smack Down))
Sample Teams have now been updated for the post Naganadel metagame.SAMPLE TEAMS
Rules for Posting:
Format for posting:
- Be sure to test the team you post in tournaments and on the ladder. This isn't an absolute rule, but teams should have reached at least top 20 in the ladder, and a GXE of 70+ shouldn't be too much to ask for.
- Be sure this team is easy to pick up on and newer players can still use it and learn. Your team could be amazing, the best ever, but if it's too hard to play with unless you're experienced, it's not going to be allowed.
- Posting replays also will help people see how to play with your team (not required, but is recommended.)
- Follow the proper format when posting. I'll fix minor errors, but don't make me completely rewrite it.
Playstyle (offense, stall, etc)
Team export (in hide tags)
Short description on how the team works.
Sample Teams:
-Quantum Tesseract's Pink and Purple (Ditto Stall)
-M'joe'ra's Radiant Reversion (Arceus Dragon Balance)
-Quantum Tesseract's Azelf Offense
-Chazm's Dual Intimidate Balance
-Quantum Tesseract's Webs HO
-In The Hills' Arceus-Flying + Terrakion balance
-Quantum Tesseract's Amoonguss + Fairyceus Balance
