M&M Mix and Mega

hayedenn

forgotten me already?
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
hi im back

:dragonite: :gholdengo: :grimmsnarl: :chi-yu: :great tusk: :espathra:
Dragonite @ Altarianite
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Roost

Gholdengo @ Diancite
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Make It Rain
- Substitute

Grimmsnarl @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Parting Shot

Chi-Yu @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Inferno
- Substitute

Great Tusk @ Pinsirite
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Body Slam
- Bulk Up

Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Def / 144 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Substitute

i originally wanted to build a team around cyclizar + screens but i found out that shed tail was banned...apparently even when i was on council...lol...so i just stuck with building around screens with tera espathra (silly mon) + dnite + gholdengo, all of which are very silly. chi-yu was added because inferno spam lets you spread burn to set up easier with the other pokemon and then great tusk is there for hazard removal. overall im not sure how optimal this comp is, im going to try playing with it more to just get a feel for it. in general though this is pretty effective. espathra is pretty easy to get in, the speed is to outspeed non-mega'd dragapult at +1 so you can avoid getting bopped by infiltrator shadow ball. you can change the tera on espathra if you want to like fairy maybe? but i think steel is best to neutralize flying and fairy ate-speed. cheers, and hope to see more people play with HO ^-^

edit: ive tried shell smash pidge cloyster > chi-yu some and it's also pretty good. special with blizz/hydro pump and filler in the last slot is v good under screens
 
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The State of Post-Home MnM
A not so comprehensive, but informative guide on post-home MnM!​
:sv/arceus: :sv/arceus-ground: :sv/arceus-fairy: :sv/arceus-water: :sv/arceus-dark: :sv/arceus-poison: :sv/arceus-steel: :sv/arceus-rock:

BEHOLD THE ARCEUS up top are the best arc forms not in any particular order

Not having one on your team is a HUGE opportunity lost. It provides so many roles and role-compression capabilities and can fit the need of your team because of its ability to be any type. Do yourself a favor and grab and Arceus on your MnM teams once home compatibility arrives.

:sv/zacian-crowned:

I don’t think the butter dog will actually be banned because it kinda hits like a wet sock without +1 attack now. With the Intrepid Sword nerf and Zacian’s attack nerf, it might not get booted. Its got a pretty unmatched speed stat making it definitely more than viable, but it just could be banned. Don’t bank on it.

:sv/zamazenta-crowned:

Its just worse than before. Kinda garbage ngl.

:sv/eternatus: :sv/calyrex-shadow:

Ban ban ban ban ban ban ban

moving on…

:sv/calyrex-ice:

Maybe you could build Trick Room or something with this guy, but it is kinda iffy in general. Pokemon in MnM are used to breaking these kinds of defenses so it isn’t really that good.

:sv/glastrier: :sv/spectrier:

These are just kinda garbage without their signature abilities. They don’t match the standards of other strong pokemon without a stone, which hinders their abilities.

:sv/dialga: :sv/dialga-origin:

I think Dialga-Origin is strictly better than Dialga due to the bulk. Even still, it fails to serve a purpose that other pokemom just do better. With a middling speed tier and bulk that is breakable by MnM standards, they both aren’t going to be too good.

:sv/palkia: :sv/palkia-origin:

Palkia falls under pretty much the same stuff as the Dialgas. Palkia-Origin, however, is a different story. It sits with the standards set by other strong pokemon in MnM with a good stat spread including 120 Spe, and an amazing typing. Palkia-Origin is definitely worthy to look at and will be quite strong I think.

:sv/giratina: :sv/giratina-origin:

I don’t think the Giratinas are going to be too good as well. Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin might be able to work, but it seems like it’ll just suck.

:sv/hoopa: :sv/hoopa-unbound:

I don’t know how to feel about these guys honestly. Hoopa is quite interesting. Its got a bad speed stat, but makes up for
its offenses, sort of. Maybe you could run Pidgeotite as a strong special attacker or Lucarionite as a mixed wallbreaker. Hoopa-Unbound could probably also be a mixed wallbreaker or just fully physical/special. Magician is kinda useless because we are dealing with Mega Stones. Maybe they could work, but they have underwhelming speed and defense stats.

:sv/mewtwo:

Bad.

moving on…

:sv/rayquaza:

NOOOOOO V-Create. DON’T LEAVE ME.
Unless transfer moves stay, V-Create is gone. Huge nerf.
Other than that nothing much changed, I think it got some stuff like U-Turn and Stealth Rock but it isn’t gonna run them anyway. It also stops weather which is quite useful if your team suffers against it. I think you could build around it, but it is quite mehh.

:sv/groudon:

Sheeshing as always, here is our sun setter Groudon. 90 speed doesn’t matter when you can tank shots. It even hits Miraidon for super-effective and stuff now. Popping off for 3 generations straight, it doesn’t fail to please.

:sv/kyogre:

Big blue whale is our beautiful rain setter now. Hopefully it doesn’t get banned with Miraidon keeping it check. It is like RPS where Groudon hits Miraidon, Miraidon hits Kyogre, and Kyogre hits Groudon. Hopefully this circle will let all of them to not be booted. I’m excited for both Kyogre and Groudon.

:sv/heatran:

Pretty solid as always, usually running Ampharosite or Charizardite Y. I don’t think much changes this gen as well. Definitely more than usable.

:sv/landorus: :sv/landorus-therian:

Pidgeotite Landorus anyone? uhh. Sandsear Storm is a funny move.
We have a new Salamencite Landorus-Therian in town and its name is Pinsirite Great Tusk. Pinsirite Great tusk does everything that Salamencite Landorus-Therian did, but better. Landot will definitely fall off.

:sv/thundurus: :sv/thundurus-therian:

Pidgeotite Thundurus/Thundurus-Therian is the best I can come up with. Wildbolt Storm is a funny move. They don’t serve much use than that tbh.

:sv/tornadus: :sv/tornadus-therian:

Outclassed by Thundurus variants tbh. Maybe Pidgeotite Tornadus-Therian? Bleakwind Storm is a funny move.

:sv/enamorus: :sv/enamorus-therian:

Enamorus gets Contrary Superpower. Why would you want to waste that? Enamorus Pidgeotite anyone? Springtide Storm is a funny move. Maybe you could run a more defensive stone like Manectite to pair with Springtide Storm for Enamorus-Therian.

:sv/diancie:

Kinda mid ngl. Maybe Diancite or Sablenite. It just has such a weird stat spread, I don’t have much to say.

:sv/meloetta:

This pokemon has some very interesting mechanics with Relic Song. It could run a variety of stones like Altarianite, Lopunnite, and Lucarionite. Pretty cool mon ngl.

:sv/mew:

It’s Mew. Nothing much to say. It ran like a ton of stones and a ton of sets last gen and will probably do this gen as well.

:sv/volcanion:

idk man. It’s got a really weird stat spread. It doesn’t really give much and it is just outclassed.

:sv/zarude:

The monke god could maybe, maybe, maybe be viable. It is also just outclassed though.

:sv/regieleki:

The GOAT. It was really good last gen and will continue to be with Extreme Speed and stones such as Altarianite or Glalitie.

:sv/zapdos: :sv/zapdos-galar: :sv/moltres-galar:

Zapdos could be really good with Pidgeotite, kinda like how Kilowattrel was. Zapdos-Galar was also good last gen with Tough Claws stones.
I just put Moltres-Galar here because I’m lazy. Yveltal got the boot this gen so this is our closest match.

:sv/urshifu: :sv/urshifu-rapid-strike:

They are going to be restricted, and then be bad. LOL

:sv/typhlosion-hisui: :sv/decidueye-hisui: :sv/samurott-hisui:

I put these together because their signature moves might hard carry them. Infernal Parade, Triple Arrows, and Ceaseless edge are very busted.

:sv/goodra-hisui:

I think this is very solid defensively and can run defensive stones. It has a great defensive typing to go with it. Maybe even Latiasite to remove the Ground weakness.

:sv/sneasler:

Dire Claw SHEEEEEEESH. Busted move. Give it Aerodactylite and you are set forever.

:sv/slowking-galar:

I think this had a niche in gen 8. It has a decent defensive typing and stat spread.

Rapid fire round

:articuno: :articuno-galar: :moltres: :regidrago: :mesprit: :uxie: :azelf: :arcanine-hisui: :delphox: :typhlosion: :chesnaught: :decidueye: :greninja: :inteleon: :rillaboom: :samurott: :wyrdeer: :avalugg-hisui: :braviary-hisui: :overqwil: :carbink: :kleavor: :muk-alola: :electrode-hisui: :slowbro-galar: :tauros: :raichu-alola: :lilligant-hisui:

Low BST, outclassed, bad in previous gens, or im just lazy. These mons are just kinda bad.


Alright, I hope you enjoyed this little adventure through Post-Home MnM! Let me know if there are any incorrect things or statements you disagree with.

this took 2 hours god help me
 
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Hello! Thank you to everyone who's been patient with us so far this generation. But now, (some of) your waits are at an end.

First off, astralydia and iapt have decided to step down from being council members. Since this brings us down to two members, please welcome Clastia to council. beauts will also be making a return, and Redflix will be joining me as co leader.

Also at this time, we finally have resources. You may have seen Redflix post our new sample teams in the second post, but they are now joined by viability rankings, which can be found here. We will also have a Speed tiers up shortly.

Finally, for policy reasons Zap Cannon has been unbanned. With two viable users, one of whom cannot run it with their best set, it does not rise to the level of a move ban like Shed Tail; if either Magnezone or Sandy Shocks prove broken with it, we will ban them instead; naturally, council will be keeping a close eye on both and are prepared to take swift action if it proves needed. Should home or DLC bring out a swath of new Pokemon broken by Zap Cannon, it's possible this will be reversed, but until then tiering action will take other forms.
 
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Redflix

Forgiven and Hanged
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
SV MnM Threat Discussion 2.0

Sandy Shocks:-

:Sandy shocks:
Sandy Shocks @ Manectite
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon

Sandy Shocks @ Glalitite
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt / Stealth Rock

Sandy Shocks @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Zap Cannon
- Earth Power
Something that went under the radar initially and then was basically overshadowed by the brief screens HO rennaissance , Sandy Shocks imo has established itself as a very annoying presence in MnM. Buffed by the recent unbanning, i think now is the perfect opportunity to bring this mon into the limelight and question its healthiness. Sandy Shocks is blessed by one of the better offensive typings in Electric / Ground which allows it to be near-impossible to block pivot. MnM already suffers from lack of solid spd walls and this mon takes it further by taking advantage of the two most common one's used atm ( Corviknight and Clodsire).
Manectite is its fastest varient which is important for it and also allows it to function as emergency switch-in to a lot of slower offensive mons. Pidgeotite should see usage once zap cannon unban is live on PS and while slower , it compensates for it by paralyzing every other switch in. I think this is especially important for mons like Roaring Moon which otherwise couldve been considered a decent wall. While i initially thought Sandy Shocks would suffer from its inability to do much damage to bulky ground types , esp pins tusk which walls both of its STABs , ive been proven wrong many times in my tests against osake and beauts while being on both sides - as the user of sandy shocks and against it. While a bit old ,i think this is a great example of sandy shocks putting in work against natural defensive cores u'll see alongside great tusk. ( Replays - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com) )
However , Manectite and Pidgeotite arent the only sets one should be vary against as glalitite can completely decimate builds relying on ground / dragon types to wall sandy shocks and can also punish scouts. Overall ,i think sandy shocks forces a similar interaction as eleki in gen8 however this time we are devoid of sponges like ho-oh in the tier.
While i've talked about its merits , Sandy shocks has its own set of problems - its speed tier with pidgeotite and glalitite is still relatively slow , leaving it susceptible to revenge killing. It also often requires u to weaken certain mons before being comfortable enough for a 1v1 against them.

Another point i'd like to touch on is Sandy shocks influence in the builder in the existing metagame. Atm , a lot of builds already need to cater against garganacl which shocks take good advantage of Clodsire / Skeledirge / Toxapex / lopunnite great tusk (all mons which would be good against garg fear sandy shocks). I think both these mons individually are borderline unhealthy but both existing at the same time heavily influence the builder in a negative way.

Palafin:-

:Palafin-Hero:
Palafin @ Choice Band
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flip Turn
- Wave Crash
- Zen Headbutt / Close Combat
- Jet Punch

Palafin @ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water / Steel
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Jet Punch
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Wave Crash
Palafin has gained tremendous usage recently and its not hard to see why. Tera CB wave crash is impossible to switch in to even for resists (Alt dnite gets 2hkoed), U've got flip turn to pivot off and good priority in Jet Punch. I personally hate the Bulk up sets as i think flip turn is extremely important for palafin to function viably but they've seen good usage in teams and are not complete garbage. The CB set particularly enjoys the strength of water stab as many metagame staples are even ohko'd by tera water jet punch. Palafin is also an extremely powerful tool to have against Screens HO thus boosting its viability even more in the current meta.
However, Palafin has a huge downside, it is p much forced to run the 3 water STABs (flip / wave crash / jet punch) and more often than not u need to run ZHB as ur last to threaten pre-mega clodsire. This leaves it completely walled by slowbro , a staple defensive choice in most teams. Other than that , i think defensive Dragonite and Pex are two another good answers to Palafin. It is also extremely slow for MnM standards and since its choice locked , it can sometimes be easy to take advantage of. Lastly, Barraskewda and Iron Bundle compete with Palafin for the offensive water spot and while not strictly better (Bundle is debatable), they can cover certain areas better than Palafin.
Overall , Palafin while being a powerful mon, does not need any tiering action taken against it.

I think other than these two , there arent any new notable threats in the meta unless gren becomes one. Overall, personally i'd like to see atleast one of garganacl or sandy shocks suspect tested (my personal choice would go to shocks cuz of its momentum inducing nature which is more terrifying against certain structures). I'd suggest players to test either of the mons to get a good opinion on them and would appreciate if others would post their thoughts either here or on discord.
 

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
greetings citizens. i am starting up a political movement. :koraidon::miraidon: please join me and #GetTeraOut

on a more serious note i want to talk about the cover legendary bans for a moment in hopes that we can be proactive about a very real issue mix & mega already has that will very quickly become more apparent when home is out - it seems to be going under the radar.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Electric Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 294-346 (45 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
this is specs miraidon, demonstrating why it is banned from generation 9 mix & mega.

252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 191-226 (29.2 - 34.6%)
this is life orb miraidon. it has not terastallised yet.

252 SpA Adaptability Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 168-198 (25.7 - 30.3%)
this is miraidon with lucarionite, one of the best offensive stones in the tier. i am being generous and suggesting that eterrain is still up.
the same calcs can be provided for koraidon.

what im getting at here is that a lump stat increase is not all that useful to pokemon that have what i call "uber bst". terastallisation is a crazy strong modifier and it is NO surprise that both legendaries got fully banned when they were still able to use a mechanic that made them far more powerful wallbreakers than literally the mechanic they're restricted from using.
yes, this is only on one offensive typing, but tera is also far more nuanced than "i hit button i see big number brain go hoo haa"; you get a free item slot. you dramatically shift offensive counterplay. both of these are huge. i truly cannot be bothered to get into these discussions again because lets be honest everyone has already made up their mind on whether or not this mechanic is balanced but i digress. the point is tera is largely on par with mega evolving when you have naturally high base stats.

"ok but miraidon has hadron engine and that's why it's better to use tera. this is no different to chien-pao, which also opts for tera". no. untrue. please allow me to theorymon for a moment with dialga, a pokemon that famously has an awful ability:

252+ SpA Pidgeotite Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sablenite Hippowdon: 289-342 (68.8 - 81.4%)
252+ SpA Tera Dragon Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sablenite Hippowdon: 292-344 (69.5 - 81.9%)
dialga does not need to use the item slot and it is already stronger than pidgeotite. players may be tempted to use lucarionite for a stronger damage output on draco meteor:

252+ SpA Adaptability Lucarionite Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sablenite Hippowdon: 328-388 (78 - 92.3%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Dragon Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 380-447 (90.4 - 106.4%)
a simple addition of a life orb shows that it is a far more effective wallbreaker just with tera.

obviously, terastallisation is not objectively better. i am not trying to argue this. koraidon would love to have a speed increase on SD sets and there is no doubt metagrossite (and manectite) speed would be hugely impactful on certain other cover legendaries we're confirmed to receive in the home update. but as far as raw damage goes? on breakers? it's at least on par if not outright better.

mix & mega has traditionally been an ubers-based metagame, but this cannot possibly be maintained if we keep terastallisation legal. koraidon and miraidon have already proven this. any uber that is too strong for mega evolution is going to be too strong for terastallisation also.

does this matter right now? can't we just wait until home? yeah actually it kinda does, and no i don't think we should. i know im in the minority of people who thinks both iron bundle and palafin are broken but i also want to use koraidon and miraidon and i feel they were both unfairly banned when restricting them from mega evolving would have been enough to keep them balanced in a no-tera paradise. this is going to have to be dealt with eventually anyway so can we please do it now? again, it's fundamentally weird to keep it legal on pokemon that are "too good" for mega evolution. please right this wrong and #GetTeraOut
 
Mix and Mega is suspecting Sandy Shocks!

QTRedflixBeautsClastia
GarganaclYesAbstainYesYes
Iron BundleNoNoAbstainYes
PalafinNoNoAbstainAbstain
Sandy ShocksNoYesYesYes
TerastalizationNoNoNoNo

Thought there have been some calls to ban terastalization, in practice this has not really shook out to some particular user being broken in practice. Of the Pokemon banned so far that made use of it, Miraidon was obviously banworthy with or without it, and while Koraidon's case is somewhat more ambigous, it is still extremely powerful without tera and it takes more than one broken user to ban a mechanic. As such, alongside this council also examined two of the best terastalization users, Iron Bundle and Palafin, but determined that both had sufficient flaws in practice and theory to not reach that level of brokeness to warrant a suspect test at this time.

Garganacl and Sandy Shocks, on the other hand, both received significantly more support. Garganacl is an incredibly flexible and potent defensive pokemon, able to viably run different stones like Aggronite, Tyranitarite, and Sablenite to great effect. Unusually for a defensive pokemon, it also managed to parley this into a solid offensive presence, between the incredibly difficult to answer Salt Cure and Iron Defense + Body Press it is the opposite of passive. Sandy Shocks, meanwhile, is a somewhat more traditionally overpowering pokemon, with solid offensive presence and typing that allow it to put pressure while pivoting. For more information, see the suspect thread here. Between the two, we ultimately decided to deal with Sandy Shocks first due to it being newly able to use zap cannon, but Garganacl coming up for vote again in the near future is likely unless things change.
 
Hello again folks, it's time for another stupidly long post by yours truly where I talk about anything and everything.

On the topic of the current suspect, I'm of little opinion. Sandy Shocks before Zap Cannon was already a very strong Pokemon with its Manectite and Glalite sets being of note. Glalite Shocks in particular specializes in breaking down common fat cores that rely heavily on pivots like Corviknight/Slowtwins and need Arcanine for speed control. Shocks by itself has an excellent, hard-to-resist set of STABs that coincidentally can only be walled out by typings that give a weakness to ice, and thus glalite offers perfect synergy for Sandy Shocks' limited offensive movepool, allowing it to easily break fat grounds like Tusk with ease, especially if they attempt to go for Pinsirite to dodge Earth Power. While its relatively unimpressive base 121 speed isn't super fast by the standards of MnM, it's just enough to outpace most everything it wants to beat up and its decent 85/97/85 bulk lets it take a few hits when it needs to. Shock's main downside is of course that same "it'll do" speed tier, leaving it somewhat prone to getting outsped and out-offensed by faster threats, which is where Zap Cannon comes in. Zap Cannon is the main thing that pushes Shocks towards the edge of broken, as reliable, unbouncable, and surprisingly damaging Paralysis is a very very strong thing indeed in this meta. As I've mentioned previously, the halved speed and 25% chance of doing nothing are stupidly powerful in a meta where everything is kicking around similar speed tiers and reduced recovery PP means being able to not have to recover as often is still important in bulky matchups, and when Sandy Shocks can basically spam a move with 100% chance of inflicting the status(even Twave got nerfed to 90% accuracy for a reason, and trying to fish for it via Discharge is relatively unreliable on a 'mon with no recovery), it gets bad. Ground types are immune to the move of course, but that's where the unfortunate 50/50 of Glalite comes in and justifies a suspect. Overall a very powerful breaker, but I'm not going to call ban or no ban yet.

Now onto happier topics, I've got a few 'mons to talk about. As before, some of them are things that've been talked about before and others are things I'm trying to spread awareness about. Also gonna talk about some.... alternative hazard removers, as our pool of viable ones really does feel limited.

The Meta Stuff:

Dragapult continues to be a massive threat to many teams and it genuinely surprises me how often I don't see it. Pidgeotite remains a massive blessing that gives Pult literally everything it wanted and it rarely doesn't leave an impression on the teams it faces. Being blazingly fast and having good coverage has never been better. It's mostly held back by its unfortunate weakness to Arcanine and Shadow Ball is a good STAB, but still rarely gives the warm and fuzzies when it's your only good neutral option to hit something with. Draco Meteor is a great nuke button, but you lose out on your coverage as a result. Wisp+Hex Pult I feel also deserves a mention, as it's nasty to switch into for many things that're expecting to eat coverage and works well for Pult's relatively okay bulk and excellent speed. Physical sets remain as gimmicky as ever, as while Dragon Darts is a great STAB, it really has to fish for another typing or use the unreliable Phantom Force as an alternative.

Arcanine remains an S-Rank threat as always. Pixilate Espeed just hurts everything and Fire/Fairy is as always an excellent STAB combo, with Morning Sun being solid recovery. Arcanine's last moveslot is where it gets to really scare something. Howl's single stage attack boost isn't much, but still allows for it to go for sweeps or break past something it couldn't previously. Roar and Wisp are also great flex options that allow Arcanine to punish switches and generate advantage for your team even if it can't break something right off the bat.

Slowking is a favorite of mine in the current meta. While Slowbro does offer superior physical bulk in a meta where some of the best attackers are physical, I feel that many players forget how important having good special bulk is on top of a reliable pivoting move in Chilly Reception. Thunder Wave is an always good support option to emergency answer threats to the team, and Future Sight is an often slept on choice to for putting heavy pressure on teams. Chilling Water was initially a move I disliked for being Scald-lite, but I've seen it do a good bit of work now, and I can say it's occasionally worth slotting in over a more damaging option when you're dealing with bulkier teams. As something of a side note, Audinite is an excellent alternative to the more standard Sablenite, thanks to removing the rather crippling Dark/Ghost weaknesses.

Dragonite is another S-Rank threat for the same reason it always has, being a bulky monster that is basically guaranteed to get its one turn of setup or what-have-you, and it is as always, difficult to answer without relying on pixie-speed due to solid coverage options and reliable recovery. However, I have found the secret tech that nobody wants you to know about that truly unlocks Dragonite's potential(joke)

Dragonite @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- Thunder/Hydro Pump/Blizzard/Draco Meteor
- Roost
"Wait wait wait, I thought you said tech, not fat Dragapult?" Is the question I'm sure you're asking right now. And no, this isn't QUITE a joke (though still funny when it works out). While at the first glance, this does in fact appear to be a slower, fatter version of the already good Dragapult, it does have a couple of things that Dragapult does not have. The first being a super spammable Flying STAB with an unfortunate confusion chance, but the other is the real kicker and what makes this set work as the Lure it is, which is a common, extremely threatening main set that generally demands an immediate response from your opponent to not get run over. Extremespeed's existence on Dragonite nearly forces your opponent to react to it as soon as it hits the field, and that's what this set takes advantage of. Best used as part of -Ate spam cores featuring Arcanine, the set's goal is to remove checks to your standard Arcanine/-Ate abuser when your opponent makes a calculated switch into their best physical wall, only to get absolutely obliterated by a Modest STAB or coverage move coming off 165 base special attack. Hurricane remains remarkably spammable, and coverage choices are up to the player's discretion, and while it requires good prediction, the fact that Dragonite by itself is so threatening means it often succeeds at luring in things like Hippo, Slowbro, and even the odd Gholdengo expecting a more standard set. Roost promotes good longevity, as its base bulk remains fairly good even in MnM and lets it stick around. Obviously this comes at the massive opportunity cost of not having -Atespeed, but can still prove its value due to the strength of its coverage and ability to remove common answers to the standard set and opening massive holes in teams that your other 'mons can exploit heavily.

Smaller Stuff:

As many have discovered, Scream Tail is basically early gen 8 Clefable, utilizing Ampharosite to set reliable rocks and having a great defensive typing to keep setting those rocks, alongside Wish and Thunder Wave as solid support choices. See, it doesn't just scream at maximum volume! A set using Audinite(removing that unfortunate psychic typing) with Calm Mind and Wish is also something many have overlooked as an evil wincon. While rather passive, a scream tail running this set is extremely hard to put down without resorting to status and Wish retains its 16 PP unlike other recovery options, so it can continue to try throughout the game, or just simply contribute to the team's recovery. Once setup, it doesn't hit quite as hard as you'd like, but is still fully capable of running through a weakened team or one lacking bulky enough resists.

Iron Hands is a weird one in this meta. It's absurdly bulky and it can quickly get out of hand(haha, joke) with Swords Dance, but it does have rather atrocious speed and unreliable recovery in Drain Punch. Still, when supported right, Hands can easily break holes in a team and it has all the coverage it really wants.


Hazard Removal?

Yep, I'm gonna talk about some of our lesser used removers now. Unfortunately we've essentially only got 4 removers(Tusk, Treads, Corv, and Noivern) who do the job well enough and all of 'em tend to be exploitable in one way or another, so I decided to comb through our options to see what's available and what ACTUALLY works. Only things with genuine niches or possible viability are getting mentions here.

Spinners:
First off is Quaquaval, a somewhat genuinely slept on choice here. Quaq's got a somewhat unfortunate secondary typing in Fighting (thankfully easily rectified for this meta) and isn't particularly fast or bulky, but all of those are relatively easy to correct. This dancing duck does get Rapid Spin, as well as Roost, U-Turn, Taunt, and even Swords Dance if you're feeling particularly ambitious. Quaqauval makes for a surprisingly solid remover due to its at minimum pre-mega rocks resistance and excellent STAB choices in either Aqua Step or Wave Crash and can opt for bulky or fast sets, though from what I've been seeing, bulky seems to be the better choice for it. Close Combat and Brave Bird make for excellent coverage choices, though for -Ate sets it really only has the unreliable Mega Kick for STAB(absolute nuke when it hits though), or the relatively meh Facade. Still a really neat option, as the meta tends to lack for good offensive water types, and Quaq is unique in that it's a spinner that can actively threaten the common Grounds that set or remove rocks and isn't afraid of Corv either.

Tsareena gets a mention despite being a grass type for its relatively decent bulk and solid movepool with Synthesis as recovery, and U-Turn to pivot. Similarly to Quaquaval, it threatens common Ground types as well as the Slowtwins. Suffers from a similar issue to Quaq as well in that it only really has Facade for STAB if you're going for an -ate spin, and remains fairly slow even with a good speed-boosting stone. Venusaurite and Lopunnite seem to be its best options for bulk and a good Fighting STAB respectively, though Aggronite remains an option as well. Brambleghast was a consideration due to Strength Sap, but suffers from the awful No-Movepool problem many Ghosts have.

Avalugg barely deserves a mention as a spinner, but makes it onto the list for an entirely different reason. While it does get hazard removal, it's fairly terrible at it due to terrible speed, typing, and no special bulk whatsoever. The real reason it's here is that it's entirely unique in that it can reliably set Aurora Veil for the team thanks to the not absurdly awful Abomasite and its defense boosting Snow, as well as spin if that's what your team needs. Avalugg's phenomenal physical bulk in Snow allows it to take some of the strongest physical attacks offered to it and simply shrug it off so it can buff up the defenses of other allies with a Veil and then do it again, eating stuff like
252+ Atk Altarianite Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg in Snow: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO and then on the next turn
252+ Atk Altarianite Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 66-78 (16.7 - 19.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO and easily recovering off the damage. Very strong potential support 'mon, mediocre spinner, but still an option. 157 base attack isn't terrible either, though 66 Sp. Def isn't worth too much.

Cryogonal also barely makes it onto the list, as it has awful physical bulk and a nearly nonexistent movepool, alongside its Ice typing. However, it does distinguish itself in that it has a solid base 105 speed, Haze, and a reliable STAB in Ice Beam/Freeze Dry alongside Recover. Really just not a great choice in most cases, but Manectite Cryo has at least passable bulk and speed, and can reliably bust stat boosts alongside threatening many common team choices that set rocks or spin them away and has a definite niche on teams that can support it well or give it some Snow.

Defoggers:
We basically have none that are viable at all beyond Corviknight/Noivern, but I did my best here.

Talonflame is.... not terrible? It does actively threaten Gholdengo and is really fast, but doesn't standout in any good way otherwise. It has mediocre bulk and meh attacking stats, but does offer support in Wisp and Tailwind, and Fire/Flying is surprisingly decent defensively beyond the quad rocks weakness. Super niche, but an okay support choice if you need a fast Fire Type that can remove hazards.

Driftblim was something of a surprise to me, but it does actually put in the work. Strength Sap is a solid recovery option(hahaha 16 PP goes brrrr), and it has gobs of solid support tools like Wisp, Dbond, Memento, Twave, Tailwind, Trick Room, Clear Smog, and Haze, and it has a passable base 90 Sp. Atk stat to work with offensively. The main thing that holds Blimpy back is its horrendous defenses, which demand a more defensively oriented stone. Its base 80 speed isn't great, but not terrible either, so it can viably run a variety of stones if you're willing to compromise on bulk, and Salamencite is very notable for giving it a good STAB in Terra Blast and patching up its awful defense to a good degree, though it remains somewhat weak. Realistically its best choices remain Sablenite or Audinite, as both offer the highest bulk increase. Manectite would be good but directly hurts its own form of recovery, so mileage may vary on that one.

Braviary also gets a Barely Mention category from me. Good Flying/Fighting coverage with not awful bulk or speed, and basically does nothing special, but doesn't do anything terrible either.
 
ive been hibernating in the peace and stability of Gen7 land but the new releases got me testin again, here are a few fun ideas for the 3 new mons

Spicycune (Walking Wake) @ Choice Specs/Choice Scarf/Zardy/Lucarionite/Diancite
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (to boost speed not spa EVs: 12 Def / 244 SpA / 252 Spe )
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Steam (boosted to 120 bp in sun)
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
substitute and agility might be options, sadly no spa boosting moves

with specs in sun it has 679 spa, by dropping its spa evs by 8 its speed will be the highest stat and would get the proto boost. it can basically run specs and scarf on the same set and terra lets it remove its espeed weakness to make it harder to revenge kill. when the forbidden lizards are unchained once more Spicycune gunna be jacked

and now for the dissapointments (aka meme team mvps)

Rudolf (Iron Leaves) @ Lucarionite/Lopunite/Metagrossite
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Psyblade (120 bp in eterrain)
- Close Combat/Wild Charge

amazing stats and great bulk for an offensive mon with a horrible stab typing and low bp stab at that. its one hope of a saving grace being the upcoming lizardgeddon, it benefits from both electric terrain and sun and could be a good wallbreaker with adaptability/tough claws solar blade and psyblade

Zork (Zoroark-Hisui) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Hyper Voice
- Shadow Ball/Bitter Malice
- U-turn

extremely frail with good spa and nuetral coverage, cant punish switching unless a nasty plot is successfully cheesed. because of its ghost immunity itd have a fun time mimicking the other ghosts of the tier to bait ghost moves and attempt nasty plot cheese. cameruptite would be fun on trick room. swords dance sets might be fun
 

hayedenn

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hi friends im here to share a funny stall team that ive been working on. it's a WIP but ive toasted enough good players with it to where i think it is worth posting

:avalugg: :blissey: :toxapex: :ditto: :volcarona: :corviknight:click on sprites for paste

The team is structured around Altarianite Avalugg, which was an idea I originally got from watching Pigeons use it in SS. Avalugg is neat in this meta as a pretty good Great Tusk counter, which is a mon we're seeing on a very high percentage of teams. Alt Spin also means that it gets unblockable hazard removal which is great w/ Volcarona. Volcarona, I should mention, is here to be a Sandy Shocks counter. The team doesn't have a Ground-type which is a bit problematic but I feel like stall has to cut a fair amount of corners at the moment and you just have to kinda pick and choose which matchups you want to get ratioed by. That's why I have Gyara Toxapex here over something that would be safer like Banettite, because I (as a player) prefer being able to play aggressively with Toxic Spikes in order to win games, but you could totally go w/ Banettite Haze here if you choose. That would make Ditto more optional since you'd be checking sweepers w/ Pex > Ditto. CM Bronite Bliss is just another solid wincon for the team, you can change the moves to your own liking. BU Corviknight is here as another stopgap to physical sweepers like Dragonite.

Trappers like Magnezone/Dugtrio are interesting options on stall that I didn't fit here. Corviknight is one of the more annoying Pokemon for stall to deal with due to it not being a removal option that is affected by Toxic Spikes (like Tusk is), which is where Magnezone would be really nice as a way to get rid of it. Dugtrio is something I've tried a little bit but kinda have just decided that the prevalence of Latiasite kinda just makes it mid...sad!

Again, team is rough around the edges but I've been enjoying toying around with stall. I'm sure someone can find something that's more consistent but I'm of the opinion that stall is just gonna be imperfect until we get more toys to play with (Home), or until a few more mons are banned. Cheers
 
Announcement!

As a result of suspect voting, Sandy Shocks has been restricted from holding mega stones! Thank you to everyone who laddered in the suspect and voted.

Furthermore, Mix and Mega plans to alter its concept! The details may be found here. but the gist is that we will be freeing other form change items for use by non restricted pokemon, including Rusted Shield, Rusted Sword, the Primal Orbs, and the creation trio items.
 
hi those changes went live early about 4h30 ago, but basically red orb is amazing defensively with mons like hippowdon and epower ispinner treads while offensive sets are largely untested, blue orb is completely dominated by quaquavel and its literal 4 switchins including multiscale dnite, rusted shield is crazy on cm/qd mons, and literally every fast ate-weak mon with good atk is now a hidden murder weapon thanks to sword. ENJOY.
Volcarona @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Water / Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Tera Blast / Will-O-Wisp
- Quiver Dance
- Morning Sun

Baxcalibur @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Glaive Rush
- Iron Head
- Earthquake

Iron Treads @ Red Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 HP / 136 SpD / 12 SpA / 108 Spe
Lax / Bold Nature
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch
- Ice Spinner
- Stealth Rock / Rapid Spin

Quaquavel @ Blue Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Close Combat
- Aqua Jet
- U-turn
 
Roaring Moon has been restricted from holding stones!
1678407403834.png

With Rusted Sword, Roaring Moon has very quickly proven itself to be an extremely powerful offensive threat. The combined factors of +30 Attack, +10 Speed, Intrepid Sword, and a secondary steel typing - not to mention upgrading Iron Head into Behemoth Blade - are simply too much. Defensively, there's not much that answers it, and even Pixispeed fails to revenge kill a healthy Roaring Moon, to say nothing of the issues experienced by Palafin and Aerilate Extreme Speed users. As such, Mix and Mega council has elected to quickban it and thereby restrict it from holding stones. Tagging Kris for implementation.


We're aware that a change this big to the metagame means this is far from the only broken pokemon running around, but most are not as immediately obvious just a handful of hours into testing. Also on our list are Rusted Sword itself, should targetting other Dragon Dance abusers or Chien Pao not prove sufficient in a few bans, Volcarona, Dragapult, and Terastalization. If you have strong opinions on the matters in question, please feel free to say as much, in thread or on discord. Updating resources for this sea change will also take a bit but we expect significantly less time than creating them in the first place.
 

Redflix

Forgiven and Hanged
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Early thoughts on the meta:-

Red Orb: for some reason red orb is extremely polarizing to me since i look at our spd walls and it seems broken but i cant for the life of myself find good offensive users for it esp cuz of its no speed boosting nature. PSA : red orb iron moth is fake dont use it, It needs that speed boosting stone. Defensively i think hippo and salamence might just be the best users of it.

Blue Orb: Have mostly been disappointed from it. Idt Offensive blue orb users atm are that hot. Ik a lot of people theorymonned skewda and Quaquavel but i think skewda still would rather run lopunnite and i think quaquavel is pretty underwhelming. I think defensive mons might have more potential altho i myself have yet to find one.

Regarding Tera vs Rusted Sword and Shield:-
Without a doubt the biggest change in the meta is caused by rusted sword and shield mons being allowed to tera and idt anyone disagrees that Intrepid Sword + ability to tera is dumb and there are plenty of abusers (baxcalibur, chien pao , even iron valiant and cinderace could work). However i also think that Tera makes even rusted shield users problematic and a pain in the builder. Volcarona and slowbro both are dangerous and i wouldnt be surprised that someone makes even dondozo work. This is why im more in the camp of giving preference to action on tera rather than Rusted Shield. Either way ,i think our next action should be one of the two.

Other thoughts:-
I think somehow these changes have made pult even more of a threat than it was in the previous meta and we might have to look at it after we sort out the above problem (if we have time that is).
Palafin for now should see a large dip in usage. I think bundle on the hand, still has a good niche esp with its LO set.
Think dnite atm is looking like the best altarianite user as i think this meta appreciates dragon/fairy more.
Garganacl and Great Tusk p much should retain their top ranking mons status while i think gholdengo might see a dip in popularity.
 

in the hills

spreading confusion
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A question regarding new items, shouldn't Arceus plates/Silvally memories change form too? Or are they excluded because they are tied to an ability?
They are tied to the Multitype/RKS System abilities yep, all Plates and Memories do for Pokemon without the corresponding ability is effect the typing of Judgment/Mutli-Attack
(also technically speaking Z-Moves change Multitype Arceus's type as well so luckily they aren't included as well)
 
:rabsca: Primal Rabsca
Type:

Stats: 75 80 105 165 100 45
Code:
Rabsca @ Red Orb
Ability: Synchronize 
Tera Type: Bug 
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA 
Bold Nature 
IVs: 0 Atk 
- Revival Blessing 
- Earth Power / Psychic
- Weather Ball 
- Recover
Rabsca @ Red Orb
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Weather Ball
- Recover

Rabsca may sound like an unusual choice, but I think it can still work with Red Orb. It has access to Revival Blessing, giving it a niche in the meta with the newly introduced Rusted Shield and Sword items, it can revive those fallen holders to come back in giving them another +1. It has STAB Weather Ball which can hit really hard off of its high special attack and boost from sun. Earth Power and Psychic are good coverage options for Fire type pokemon and poison type pokemon like Toxapex or Iron Moth. And having natural recovery is always nice.
 

Redflix

Forgiven and Hanged
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
:rusted sword: Rusted Sword is Now Banned from Mix And Mega :rusted sword:
1678671076457.png


After its introduction, Rusted Sword quickly became a powerful offensive tool especially in the hands of Dragon Dance users, allowing them to take further advantage of the Steel typing + Intrepid Sword boost. Aside from the previously banned Roaring Moon, Baxcalibur and Salamence also showed tendencies to be far more powerful than the current meta can handle all the while being bulky enough to be not revenged by -ate speed. Additionally, Sword Dance users like Chien Pao and Cinderace with Tera type Steel, Fire or even Ghost were equally potent sweepers thanks to the defensive counterplay being extremely scarce, with only Venusaurite Hippowdon being able to reliably check all variants. While the Council did toy around with the idea of banning some abusers first and then going through the suspect route, majority of us ultimately found the combination of IS + Tera to be inherently broken and thus decided to ban it.

Tagging Kris to implement as well as unrestrict Roaring Moon from holding stones / items.
 
Some general meta thoughts/predictions

the rusted items are both insanely powerful, terra/2.25 omni-stab+stat buff is insanely busted and a huge buff for offense in general and the role of dedicated terra users. terra blast's omnistab capability makes nearly any mon with a boosting move and decent stats a viable sweeper or roleplayer. needless to say i dont think the banning of rusted sword will infringe much upon the success of its relative.

with the orbs come the presence of their standard associated types and their standard type matchups. in general water/flying types, drag/flying types and certain levitate users have good matchups vs most of the known orb users like gdon/hippo, skymin, volcarona, and golisopod. with the return of the orbs it might be worth retrying mons like mence, pins/blorb gyaradose, noivern and the like. levitate waters and dragons also tend to matchup well vs orb users. with the orbs immunity upon switch mechanics both water and fire types will be significantly effected, their capacity as sweepers will diminish (except gyaradose) however their raw power and ability to create safe switches goes up greatly

here are some fun sets to use in the new hectic meta

Emo Skarmory (Corviknight) @ Blue Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Hurricane (Best way to pressure the espeeders and donphan forms within a single slot)
- Defog
- U-turn (Loves Ditto as a partner)
- Roost
ive been waiting over 7 years to use Uturn blorb Skarmory. this set is inspired by blorb Skar in gen 7, top players have consistently said Skar would be usable on nearly every teamstyle if it had more special bulk and uturn. offensive fire types are gunna have a lot harder time breaking thru teams singlehandedly

Haxorus/Insert SD User Here @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance/Swords Dance
- Iron Head->Behemof Bash
-coverage
terra was already usable prior to the rusted items, stat boost+omnitype is clearly broken. one sd gives Behemof Bash a 46% chance to 2hko max def blorb corv, after 2 sds it guarantees 2hkos max def sablenite corv

Gloria (Hippowdon) (M) @ Red Orb
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang/Stone Edge
- Slack Off
heres a set both i and Aggrometaile have had fun experimenting with in gen 7 and im glad to see get carried over into this gen. in the absence of groudon it was agreed hippowdon would be one of the best remaining orb users. after a curse it can even sit on max atk lopunite tusk 252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs +1 252 HP / 4+ Def Hippowdon: 120-142 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO. hippo's other fav moves include trocks, whirlwhind, body press, and ice fang


Chien-Pao Chicken (Chien-Pao) @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Poison/literally anything oh lawd name your type man everyones mf arceus now i guess
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Tera Blast
- Icicle Crash
- Throat Chop
it really needed a lil more defense to make terra work and now rusted shield will instantly give chien more staying power and a more valid role in the meta. terra also patches up its poor type coverage and lets it punish what were previosly counters/checks like the espeeders, corv, certain stall teams w garganac or audinite skeledirge, etc. Aggrometaile for calling it out day 1 of the change

Primal MF Groudon (Great Tusk) @ Red Orb
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: idk
Jolly/Impish Nature
-idk
too many ev/move combos to consider. slow? fast? bulk up? sweeper or support? itll be fun to see how it and the hippo battle it out for orb supremacy. redorb hippo is a proven known, i cant predict how tusk will differentiate itself but i hope itll have its own unique use cases

JigglySCREAM (Scream Tail) @ Red Orb
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Fire Blast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Wish/Boomburst
fire/fairy is an amazing offensive and defensive type in mnm with a good matchup vs the espeeders and has great special attacking coverage with just its stab moves. the pink punk puff has great balanced stats w dorb of 371 hp, 275 def, 329 spa, 266 spdef and 353 speed\

Iron Moth @ Red Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance/Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Morning Sun
coverage varies

Iron Valiant @ Red Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Fire Punch
- Spirit Break
- Zen Headbutt
admittedly set is mostly for fun

Kyogrre (Toxapex) @ Blue Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Poison Jab
- Toxic
- Recover
might be good but could just as easily be a meme

Pizza Head (Dragapult) @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe (outspeeds red orb iron moth but evs are provisional)
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Tera Blast
- Dragon Darts
- Sucker Punch
 
Last edited:

ponchlake

cult of personality cult leader
is a Pre-Contributor
unrestrict Roaring Moon
The specially defensive Venusaurite Roaring Moon dream lives on Clastia
Could someone please rate my Mix and Mega team? I just got started in this metagame, and was hoping for tips.

https://pokepast.es/921c7ef34db8b753
Also, the OM RMT channel in the Smogon discord is likely a better place to get feedback on teams than here. The OM room on PS also another good option, but your best bet for team help in the future would be asking in the RMT channel in the server.
 
hi nerds, wanted to have a discussion on stuff. let's start w a couple of sets I've been enjoying

:sv/hippowdon:
Hippowdon @ Altarianite
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
- Body Slam
I heard people were looking for defensive Dragapult answers, well, here you go! Altarianite Hippowdon is immune to Thunder and Draco Meteor, resists U-turn, and is bulky enough to tank Shadow Balls. It's also good into our espeeders, and once you get rid of lati pexes, you can put up decent work. Latiasite Gholdengos are a problem, and so are Corviknights, but you can just parafish with body slam, or in the latter's case, just spam curses. red orb hippos suck imho. you are much better off using sab/venu, or this set i guess. if u don't wanna burn the alt slot, ig u can also use Audinite.

:sv/iron_hands:
Iron Hands @ Latiosite
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Swords Dance
lati hands is amazing lol. you catch tusks, hippos, etc off-guard. once u get SDs up, u can even end up sweeping lol. it's especially good into corv+pex+ground type stuff people are spamming rn.

now onto some serious issues:
:sv/dragapult:
people are complaining about pult being too overwhelming rn, and it's not hard to see why. and i agree, pult needs to go asap imo. it's the best user of pidgeotite rn, and has access to all sorts of good moves including shadow ball (ghost is a great offensive typing), draco meteor (nuke), thunder (...), and u-turn. "good" defensive answers to this mon are almost non-existent, because our special walls are limited to corviknight, blissey, toxapex, sablenite iron moth, and garganacl, alongside a few niche ones. most of them have issues dealing with pult effectively, corv dies to thunder, blissey may get owned by luc ddarts (also amph being a dragon type makes things worse), pex dies to thunder, moth dies to it w some chip (mostly rocks), not to mention they can just get u-turned on. garg is an effective answer, but non-tyranitarite (or rusted shield ig), again, may have issues dealing with it long-term. about dudunsparce, well, it can do this 4 Atk Lucarionite Adaptability Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cameruptite Dudunsparce: 196-232 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. I do realise not using pidgeotite has its own issues like not being able to effectively deal with mons like corviknight, but 1. lucarionite is not a bad set considering it's also slightly faster+more power stabs 2. there's also the fact that it can deal with what is supposed to be its "solution" 3. it can always use partners like magnezone. offensive answers too are extremely limited, basically just our espeeders and stuff like dia valiant because it outspeeds most of the metagame, and also resists forms of priority like Palafin jet punch.
basically, it's an unhealthy mon with extremely limited defensive answers and not enough offensive counterplay, has a pivoting move, and needs to go (especially now that its most effective counterplay: garg too, needs to go, which I'll be getting to shortly).

:sv/garganacl:
ive been campaigning for its ban for ages now lmao... and now it's even better (or worse, perhaps) than before, thanks to rusted shield (and rusted sword gone).
Garganacl @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Poison / Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Salt Cure
- Recover
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
aggronite was already a pain to deal with, and now rusted shield sets are starting to gain popularity. salt cure makes long-term counterplay incredibly difficult due to being unblockable (u don't rlly want to use covert cloak as an item in mnm), and it can just iron defense... to win. shield really pushes it over the edge, as it can also totally invalidate answers like toxic clodsire and iron valiant (with tera poison), tusk (with tera flying, Id tera [insert tera type here] also heavily pressures it), etc. not much else to say here, ban.

other notes:
:red_orb::blue_orb:
extremely disappointed with our orb users, i know people are running stuff like red orb iron moth, red orb Hippowdon, etc... but honestly, red orb iron moth sucks and DO NOT use it (u lose speed and poison typing for no reason at all), and red orb grounds are all kinda mid, although they do have some very interesting tools... blue orb users are almost non-existent, there's stuff like quaquavel ig... but, why not just use skewda? ok u get the extra wave crash power, but u r too slow to put in work.

:rusted_shield:
i know people are theorizing offensive rusted shield users (which ran rusted sword formerly), but none of them are, sadly, that effective rn. you are much better off using bulky setup mons with rusted shield: garg, florges, and volcarona.

:toxapex:
our best phazer atm, pex is a v nice defensive pick. very good into our espeeders too, especially with latiasite, and mons like valiant, skewda, quaqa, etc.

also posting a fun team I've been enjoying lately
:Hippowdon::slowbro::great_tusk::iron_moth::iron hands::dragapult:
(click on the sprites for paste)
a team centered around the 2 sets i posted above. hippo, slowbro, and sab iron moth form the defensive backbone of the team, and red orb tusk acts as the hazard control mon while also effectively dealing with mons like rotom-wash, skewda (in case slowbro is low on hp), etc. pult+hands is a nice offensive core and does the wallbreaking job.

well that's basically it, if u see any mistakes, do not correct me :toast:
 
:Annihilape:
Annihilape @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Vital Spirit
Tera Type: Water/Fairy/Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 204 SpD / 52 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Rage Fist
- Taunt / Rest
- Drain Punch / Sleep Talk

this seems like by far the biggest benefactor from the introduction of rusted shield from what little i've played. i've found annihilape to have lacked something throughout this gen that i feel this set patches up. This turns corviknight into set up fodder, enables you to set up on unboosted gholdengo and grants a crucial immunity to moldy toxic that its other sets have lacked. This set is also less susceptible to being revenge killed than other annihilape sets since it can both change its defensive typing to water/fairy and starts initially with a much better typing than fighting/ghost (not being weak to fairy in particular is super nice) speed evs on this one allow you to speed creep 8 speed altarianite arcanine but you can run more or less as you see fit
 
Well, now that the meta's had some time to stew, I'll add my two cents to the mix.

While I'm not going to go and point out some immediate threat that completely breaks down the meta because at the time, there isn't one that quite breaks the meta, I will say that the current pressure on teambuilding is absurd and at least one thing probably needs to go because there's so many threats in the builder that putting a team together that doesn't get run over by SOMETHING at this point is a feat in of itself without resorting to Ditto or as many "walls these things but also sits there and does nothing else" choices as you can fit in a team.
I'd also just like to agree that while Rusted Shield by itself isn't busted, the ability to terra while using it, is. STAB Behemoth Bash+Free Defense Boost+Terra into whatever you want equals a really polarizing item that becomes super swingy and at times very unfun to play around, especially when the Terra "slot" is often free of any competition. This translates into some very awkward 50/50s that don't have the same trade-offs that running a "normal" terra has where you're giving up extra bulk/power in exchange for the type change/item slot.

Anyways, let's look at our current additons to the meta item-wise and I'll do a bit of analysis that hasn't been done yet.

:rusted_shield:
I'm of the opinion that this isn't the generally defensive monster-enabler people think it is. A once-per-battle defense boost is super powerful in the right hands, but barring terra shenanigans, Steel typing does offer some downsides in a meta where several of the best attackers and walls are ground types or carry coverage for Steels. What this does allow for, is bulky sweepers to be able to get off that first boost, and then soak any revenge killing attemtps, with terra just absolutely screwing up switchins or answers. A lot of people seem to think garg is a really good user of this and I really strongly disagree. Garg already needs multiple Idefs to actually threaten anything with its Bpress set and it basically has to terra on something super passive, as Rock/Steel is a famously awful typing and it doesn't have a free pre-mega status immunity/shadow ball resistance to enable switchins, and even afterwards, if it gets forced out for any reason, the Terra is basically all its got. While still an option, I think Garg has more optimal choices at the end of the day. As a side-note, I have had some success running Iron Hands/Roaring Moon with the Shield respectively, with Roaring Moon enjoying the extra bulk and removal of its quad fairy weakness and Iron Hands just enjoying the ability to terra and Swords Dance on stuff.



Orb Ponderers of the Red and Blue Variety

As I'm sure several people have found out, the Orbs are.... not amazing offensive tools. While they can perform in that role, they're best suited for mixed defensive/offensive roles thanks to the pure type immunity that can only be bypassed by the other weather type or Cloud Nine. While the additional typing/Sun boost of Red Orb and the Water boost of Blue seem immediately appealing, the draw of actually abusing the weather you're setting is something of a trap and should almost always be a secondary concern to what you're trying to do. +30/50 offenses are nice, but the big thing is that the Orbs do not boost speed or offer a large amount of extra bulk (+20 to either defense or special defense is nice if you're already investing, but is otherwise not a whole lot) and thus most users require team support to act as offensive threats.

Blue Orb:
There's not a whole lot to say for this one that hasn't already been said. It's basically a gift just for Corviknight, and allows it to completely stuff Arcanine and Moth in every way that's important and now effectively pivot off of dnite that originally carried Fire Punch for it as well. Most of the Blue Orb's utility in general is that it doesn't actively work against the user's typing and provides a near unbeatable Fire immunity. While good in previous gens, it finds itself somewhat limited in viability due to dex limitations, as the only actively good pokemon that benefits from the Blue Orb's specific set of benefits is Corviknight. Barraskewda can put in work as a fast breaker, but requires slow pivot support and is fairly one dimensional. Once DLC arrives I think we'll see a bit more of it, but only time will tell.

Red Orb:
The real meat of the additions here, Red Orb is probably MOST famous in past gens for Pdon and Victini respectively, Pdon for its amazing versatility and powerful defensive utility, and Victini for its ability to click Fire moves and make something blow up. Desolate Land is an excellent ability and the additional Fire typing provided by the Orb itself grants a surprisingly good defensive typing in Fire, thanks to its always useful Fairy resistance and full immunity to water. Again, thanks to dex limitations, we also have a limited number of really good Red Orb users, though I've given a bunch of tries to see what works. As others have said, Iron Moth is a very poor choice of Orb user, as it really likes having a good speed tier and really would just rather let Volcarona do the Orb pondering, as it doesn't lose anything by it, and usually relies on boosting its speed anyways, though Orb Volcarona isn't all that amazing either.
Red Orb Hippowdon is another fairly solid winner here. Some have said it's inferior to normal hippo sets, but I think it's worth using in some cases. The added ground/rock weakness is an obvious downside for any Red Orb user, but hippo does gain a valuable fairy and steel resistance as well as a water immunity to compliment its ground typing, making it very good at stuffing bulky waters and I'd say it's more of a complimentary choice for teams that want a solid answer to arcanine and water types in one slot, as Hippo offers a good amount of role compression.
Skeledirge also makes Red Orb work fairly well. While it turns into a pure Fire type, it does lose its nasty dark/ghost weaknesses and generally just becomes better defensively while still having a nasty bite via sun-boosted STABs
Fuck it We (Weather) Ball
There's two specific users I want to talk about here: Arboliva and Bellibolt, both are actually quite good and viable in their own ways, though for different reasons.
Bellibolt was one I initially was going to make a brief mention of before the release of Orbs due to its relatively decent bulk and rather unique gimmick of being able to Soak any switchin while using Ampharosite or alternatively running Latiasite for Ground immunity, but then Orbs dropped and so did a new potential set. Fire/Electric in spite of its rather obvious weaknesses to Ground/Rock is a genuinely solid defensive typing that resists all forms of -Ate, as well as Electric, Fire, Steel, Grass, and Bug; while also being fairly strong offensively. Even resists do not particularly enjoy switching into a STAB weather ball, and Discharge allows it to freely fish for paralysis. Slack off provides reliable recovery, and Volt Switch allows it to pivot. Bellibolt's main drawback is its very exploitable Ground weakness and it generally wants hazard removal support, as while it does pull off a good defensive set, it tends to get worn down by repeated rocks switchins. Very good partner for Corv, as both make excellent slow pivots and belli can eat all the electric moves corv doesn't want to take, while corv can freely switch in on most grounds.
Arboliva is something I always wanted to give a shot prior to Orbs, but never got around to due to its meh Normal Typing dragging potential sets down(being a magnet for fighting coverage while also being weak to Flying/Ice is less than stellar). Red Orb Arboliva fills the role of what's essentially a nuke button. Very few things want to switch into a STAB sun-boosted Weather Ball off base 175 Modest Sp. Atk and those that do, generally get blown up by your choice of Leaf Storm/Solar Beam, Dazzling Gleam, or Earth Power, or even a Rain Boosted Weather Ball in Corviknight's case. Arboliva is something that needs help getting in, but when it gets to hit the field, your opponent pretty much has to offer something to it to die. Strength Sap or Synthesis are excellent recovery choices and mostly come down to what you want out of it. Strength Sap is great at denying slower sweepers and offers more PP for longer games, as well as potentially allowing it to survive extra hits, but is somewhat exploitable and can be Bounced. Synthesis gets a near permanent sun boost, but lacks the sustain Sap has and can thus be stalled out. In general, Arboliva is a super strong abuser for Red Orb with solid bulk, but does need assistance getting in due to its only "solid" bulk and does have to fear Aerialate, but is also nearly impossible to safely switch into.
 

Redflix

Forgiven and Hanged
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Dragapult Now Has Been Restricted From Mix and Mega!

1679335545771.png


Aggrometaile's post here does a fairly decent job of explaining the problems with Dragapult in the meta. An exceptional speed tier combined with a solid offensive typing which gets further boosted with Pidgeotite is extremely hard to answer defensively. Access to U-turn not only allows it to gain momentum against variety of team structures but also helps it chip down checks like Clodsire and Cameruptite Dudunsparce so that they could get into Draco Meteor Range. Other solid checks to the Pidgeotite sets like Garganacl and Sablenite Blissey come with their own set of problems with Blissey just being a huge momentum drain and often easy to take advantage of with other physical offensive mons and Garganacl may fell prey to the 20% spd drop from Shadow Ball. Moreover while not always ideal , Lucarionite Dragapult can often lure in checks to the Pidgeotite set and chip them heavily while also having the added advantage of being faster than its other set. Ultimately all this lead to majority of us thinking that the tier would be better with Dragapult being restricted.

As you can all see , We also voted on Terastillization and will be going ahead with a suspect test. A fairly controversial topic, The council recognizes that Terastillization not only pushes certain sets on the edge of being broken but also enables solid offensive wallbreakers to be more threatening. Certain "cheese" sets also get boosted in viability by the combination of Rusted Shield + Tera. Thus overall , Tera definitely is restrictive on the builder and we plan on having the community decide the fate of this element.

Finally, We have some preliminary samples!! With Open round 1 starting next week, we thought it would be wise if we could get some sample teams out. While we def will work on more teams later, teams from the community for sample submission are always appreciated :).
 

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