-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
OU Moltres
- Thread starter Sturdynips
- Start date
mega lucario is banned now, mentions of it need to go
Made sub + toxic the first set. I'll have this written up shortly
Is this still viable with Mega Luke gone?
And Genesect too... I was never fond of defensive Moltres to begin with because I don't think it's all that good, but the offensive set should be fine, though
The defensive set is arguably less good than the offensive set now that Genesect and Mega Lucario are banned, but I honestly think it's still viable enough to keep a main set. I've been using one on a team recently, and as long as you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, it makes a solid check to a ton of stuff even outside of the banned Pokemon. It's one of the few Pokemon that can actually shut down virtually all variants of Mega Charizard Y. It barely escapes the 2HKO from Quiet LO Aegislash's Shadow Ball, so it's a fantastic counter to mixed sets. It can switch into most variants of Heatran and Volcarona easily and phaze them out (in fact, Ancientpower Heatran can be stalled out with Pressure and SubRoost). It still checks regular Lucario pretty well. It walls most variants of Gliscor completely, as well as Landorus-T lacking Stone Edge (which are are less common than those that do, but still existent). Scizor can threaten it with Knock Off, but otherwise, it's walled too. It makes a great answer to Conkeldurr lacking Thunder Punch or Rock Slide/Stone Edge since otherwise, it gets its Leftovers knocked off at worst (in fact, if Conkeldurr doesn't have Guts, it's shut down by burns). Variants of Excadrill without Rock Slide (less common, but still ~26%) are walled. It can force out a couple of defensive Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Trevenant, and Forretress and get up a free Substitute, which can be really helpful. It curbstomps Mega Venusaur and burns it, which Venusaur absolutely hates. Gengar can't break it, even with a Life Orb, nor can Alakazam or Mega Gardevoir. Defensive Togekiss fails to break its Substitute, which is great against one of the most annoying Pokemon in the metagame. Once the sleep has been taken, it shuts down any Breloom lacking Rock coverage. Even without Def investment, it shuts down Mega Mawile since it outspeeds and burns Adamant variants, avoiding the Sucker Punch. In fact, with just 12 Spe EVs, you outrun even the occasional Jolly Mega Mawile. It can even take anything from Calm Mind Clefable and phaze it out, which is great for defensive teams that are often run over by that set. Even in last Pokemon situations, +6 Clefable can't 2HKO with Moonblast, so PP stalling it with Pressure is very possible.
It lost two of the biggest reasons to use it, but specially defensive Moltres is still a viable set that makes a great answer to many common Pokemon in this metagame. You have to be pretty diligent about Defog or Rapid Spin support, but as long as you keep Stealth Rock off the field, Moltres is capable of pretty impressive defensive feats. You might want to move it behind the offensive set, but I think it's still worthy of its own set all the same.
It lost two of the biggest reasons to use it, but specially defensive Moltres is still a viable set that makes a great answer to many common Pokemon in this metagame. You have to be pretty diligent about Defog or Rapid Spin support, but as long as you keep Stealth Rock off the field, Moltres is capable of pretty impressive defensive feats. You might want to move it behind the offensive set, but I think it's still worthy of its own set all the same.
This is written and ready for a final check. I kept the defensive set first for the moment but i'm leaning toward switching them again...though i'll leave that decision to QC
With the analyses all being uploaded very soon, this analysis just needs one final QC check and then it is just the short GP process to go through so it will be pretty much finished and ready
We spoke on PS! and the only things I requested to be changed were a small note in the C&C section and I gave him permission to move the Offensive set above the Defensive one after he expressed he felt it was better (on top of the reasons outlined by Agent Gibbs). I'm confident that both of the sets are still viable in the metagame.
QC 3/3
Awesome job and well written. You can send this to GP when you're ready.
QC 3/3
Awesome job and well written. You can send this to GP when you're ready.
Last edited:
Implemented, thanks Laby.
This is ready for GP
This is ready for GP
Amateur check here.
Additions
Deletions
Comments, which selected sections enclosed in []
Additions
Deletions
Comments, which selected sections enclosed in []
Overview
########
While the Fire / Flying typing offers an unattractive 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, it also provides an array of resistances which that, when augmented by access to Hurricane backed by and a great base 125 Special Attack stat, allows Moltres to fulfill both offensive and defensive roles for a team. Pressure and reliable recovery in Roost are handy for a defensive Pokemon, allowing Moltres to stall out Pokemon that it checks by virtue of its typing, such as Lucario, Scizor, Mega Mawile, and Conkeldurr. Offensively, Hurricane allows Moltres to 2HKO most of the OU tier; this wallbreaking power somewhat compensates for its relatively low Speed. Unfortunately, Tthe Flame Pokemon is weak to common Water-, Electric-, and Rock-type attacks, which, in tandem with addition to the above-mentioned Stealth Rock vulnerability weakness, means that Moltres faces significant competition for a position on a team, both offensively and defensively.
Offensive
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Ground
move 4: U-turn / Roost
ability: Pressure
item: Choice Specs / Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Modest / Timid
Moves
========
There are few moves that contain possess the sheer wallbreaking potential of Moltres's Hurricane. It has excellent neutral coverage as well as and perfect accuracy under rain. Fire Blast is a similarly powerful secondary STAB attack that nails most Steel-types that resist Hurricane, notably including Aegislash, which resist Hurricane. In the third slot, Hidden Power Fighting 2HKOes all variants of Tyranitar other than Assault Vest, and while also hittings Heatran super effectively., while Hidden Power Ground is more specifically for Heatran, as it deals woeful damage to Tyranitar. [U-turn]The move U-turn is always spelled with a hyphen. is ideal on Choice Specs sets for momentum and chip damage on predicted counters; Roost should only be used if alongside Life Orb is the preferred item as it mitigates Stealth Rock damage and Life Orb recoil.
Set Details
========
Maximum Speed and Special Attack along with a Modest nature is ideal to provide the greatest firepower and wallbreaking potential, though Timid is viable in order to outrun Jolly Excadrill, Gyarados, Mild Kyurem-B, Jolly Mamoswine, and Timid Rotom-W. The boost afforded by Choice Specs is too attractive to pass up; with Choice Specs and a Modest nature, Moltres can OHKO common threats it otherwise cannot, such as Mega Charizard X, Garchomp, Latios, and Terrakion; it cannot OHKO these Pokemon without Choice Specs. IHowever, if being locked into one move is unsatisfactory, a Life Orb is useful for the added versatility, though its recoil damage and the slight drop in power is are often undesirable.
Usage Tips
========
Use Moltres's powerful STAB moves to break down opposing walls;. U-turn should only be used if your opponent has a counter to Moltres. M, as most of the time you will be best served by choosing an appropriate STAB attack. Tyranitar has the potential to trap Moltres with Pursuit, especially with Stealth Rock on the field. As such, if your opponent has a healthy Tyranitar on their team it is often best to use U-turn until you scout what set it is, in order to letting you know when Hidden Power Fighting will KO it. As this set has no defensive investment, avoid switching directly into strong attacks unless they are resisted hits.
Team Options
========
Rain support is necessary to give Hurricane perfect accuracy, therefore so Politoed is a mandatory partner. Hazard-removal support is a similarly vital requirement; Starmie is a decent choice as it also threatens many of Moltres's offensive checks, including Keldeo, Terrakion, and Thundurus. Moltres can easily take Bug- and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie, as well as and handily defeat Celebi and Ferrothorn. Be aware However, keep in mind that using Starmie amplifies an Electric-type weakness, though. Defog Latios packing Earthquake is a great lure for Heatran and Tyranitar, as well as and it can potentially damage Aegislash, potentially damaging it to the point where enough so that it is 2HKOed by Hurricane. Terrakion is an excellent partner as it can smash Tyranitar, Heatran, and Chansey with its STAB Close Combat. Bisharp is a nice offensive check to Tyranitar, and it can threaten Aegislash and Chansey with Knock Off as well as while dealing solid damage to the latter with Pursuit. Moltres's U-turn can often bring Bisharp in safely against these Pokemon. Other offensive Pokemon that benefit from rain are good choices. Kabutops and Kingdra thrive in the later stages of a game, after Moltres has broken down opposing walls. Tornadus-T can forms a nice Hurricane core with Moltres and can also lure and defeat mutual checks with Superpower. Finally, Moltres's U turn is an excellent tool that can bring in Dugtrio to can trap and remove Heatran and Tyranitar, appreciating the opportunities it gets to switch in from Moltres's U-turn.
SubToxic
########
name: SubToxic
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Roost
move 4: Flamethrower
ability: Pressure
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
nature: Calm
Moves
========
The combination of Substitute, Roost, and Toxic works excellently with Pressure to stall out slower opponents. Substitute provides protection from status, which otherwise cripples Moltres, and is easy to set up thanks to Moltres's handy resistances. Any defensive Pokemon worth its salt loves a form of recovery; Roost provides this longevity for Moltres. Toxic is a great way to cripple common switch-ins, especially bulky Water-types such as Rotom-W and Jellicent, and f. Finally, Flamethrower is a decently strong STAB attack that has the added advantage of denting many Pokemon which that don't mind Toxic, such as Steel-types, Mega Venusaur, Poison Heal Gliscor, and Celebi.
Set Details
========
The given EVs and Calm nature emphasize special bulk, allowing Moltres to check the likes of Aegislash, Alakazam, Landorus, and, importantly, Mega Charizard Y, while also minimizing Stealth Rock damage. Leftovers is the item of choice for its useful HP restoration.
Usage Tips
========
This set is designed to stall out opposing Pokemon using with passive damage from Toxic while keeping healthy with Roost. Try to set up a Substitute on Pokemon who cannot break it, such as Skarmory, or when you expect the opponent to switch out. A good scenario to use Substitute is if your Moltres is on the field against a Ferrothorn. If you're not safely behind a Substitute, it is wise to keep in mind that Toxic should nearly always be used to hit Water-types as they switch in, as they will force Moltres out otherwise. It is also important to remember that Pressure will double the PP used by cost of moves used against Moltres, so it is feasible to stall out the PP of moves such as Stone Edge through the use of Substitute and Roost. Because Stealth Rock takes a huge 50% of Moltres's HP upon [switching -in]Use "switch-in" only to refer to a Pokemon that commonly switches in on another., you should play cautiously when it is on the field, as using Substitute once before switching out will mean that make Moltres is only useful only as death fodder unless you've previously removed Stealth Rock is removed. Although this set is investsed in Special Defense, you should recognize that Moltres's typing allows it to check physical attackers, too. Scizor and Conkeldurr can do very little outside of Knock Off., and Ground-types such as Excadrill that lack a Rock-type coverage move are also will be completely shut down.
Team Options
========
This Moltres set is best suited to for defensively inclined or balanced teams. In order for it to be effective, Defog or Rapid Spin support is a necessity; Excadrill has nice defensive synergy with Moltres and can demolish Tyranitar and Heatran with its STAB Earthquake. Mega Blastoise coves Moltres's Water-type vulnerability and Moltres can comfortably switch into Grass-type attacks aimed at Mega Blastoise. As far as Defog users go, Latios is an excellent choice, particularly variants carrying Earthquake, as it effectively can lures in and removes damage Heatran as well as dealing nice damage to and Tyranitar with Earthquake. In terms of a dDefensively core, bulky Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Gourgeist are great partners as they can switch into Electric- and Water-type moves. In return, Moltres can check Fire-type threats such as Mega Charizard Y and Volcarona. Teammates that can handle fast physical attackers such as Terrakion, Garchomp, and Talonflame are wise choices; Landorus-T and Rotom-W are effective in this pivot role and can often bring Moltres in safely with U-turn and Volt Switch, respectively. Landorus-T can also set up Stealth Rock to wear down opposing Pokemon.
Other Options
########
Moltres has [access to several useful options at its disposal]The original phrasing here sounded redundant., such as. Will-O-Wisp and Roar, which could potentially be used over Substitute and Toxic on the defensive set. This, allowings Moltres to counter Mega Mawile and prevent dangerous opponents from setting up, such as Belly Drum Azumarill and Mega Gyarados from setting up. Defog is possibly viable, though Moltres struggles to find space for it in its moveset, and. In addition, Moltres will often have to switch into Stealth Rock in order to use Defog, so hazard removal is best left to its teammates. Offensively, Moltres could utilize an Agility set, but setting up can be tough it has trouble finding opportunities to set up and often Moltres is usually better served by using its opportunities to firinge off powerful attacks rather than to attempting a to sweep. Finally, alternate moves such as Flamethrower, Overheat, and Air Slash are options over Fire Blast and Hurricane, though nearly always inferior choices.
Checks & Counters
########
**Stealth Rock**: As it Stealth Rock removes 50% of Moltres's health upon switching -in, if Stealth Rock is up, it prevents Moltres cannot from countering many of the threats it otherwise could , and is leaves it far more prone to being revenge killed.
**Special Walls**: Tyranitar, Heatran, Chansey, and Blissey easily take Moltres's STAB moves. Choice Specs HP Fighting does not 2HKO Assault Vest Tyranitar, while Scarf variants always live survive one hit and can retaliate with Stone Edge or Pursuit. However, Tyranitar doesn't like Will-O-Wisp, though. Specially defensive Heatran is not 2HKOed by HP Fighting, and can lay down Stealth Rock or cripple Moltres with Toxic, although it must be wary of HP Ground. Blissey and Chansey can take any hit comfortably, heal potential burns with Natural Cure, and ruin Moltres with status. Assault Vest Goodra is not 2HKOed by Choice Specs Hurricane and can retaliate with powerful attacks. [Sylveon also takes less than 50%, and can heal with Wish.]Consider describing what, if anything, Sylveon can do to Moltres in return. Rotom-W resists Moltres's dual STAB and can hit back with Hydro Pump or Volt Switch.
**Steel-types in Rain**: Steel-types like Aegislash and Jirachi can switch into Hurricane, and; though they are Moltres can 2HKOed by them with Fire Blast, it would prefer not to being locked into Fire Blast under rain is generally not a great situation for Moltres. Aegislash deals heavy damage with Shadow Ball, while Jirachi will cripple Moltres with paralysis.
**Pokemon that don't fear Flamethrower + Toxic**: Tentacruel and Magic Guard Clefable can't be worn down with Toxic and take little damage from Flamethrower. [Lum Berry and Substitute users that resist Flamethrower such as Garchomp and Gyarados can set up a Substitutes that defensive Moltres cannot immediately break.]This sentence primarily describes how Substitute users fare against Moltres. Do you mean to include how Lum Berry users fare in this sentence?
**Faster Pokemon**: Naturally faster Pokemon with super effective moves make for good checks. such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Starmie, and Thundurus are good examples here make for good checks. Swift Swim users such as Kingdra can take advantage of Moltres's rain support and OHKO it with powerful attacks.
########
While the Fire / Flying typing offers an unattractive 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, it also provides an array of resistances which that, when augmented by access to Hurricane backed by and a great base 125 Special Attack stat, allows Moltres to fulfill both offensive and defensive roles for a team. Pressure and reliable recovery in Roost are handy for a defensive Pokemon, allowing Moltres to stall out Pokemon that it checks by virtue of its typing, such as Lucario, Scizor, Mega Mawile, and Conkeldurr. Offensively, Hurricane allows Moltres to 2HKO most of the OU tier; this wallbreaking power somewhat compensates for its relatively low Speed. Unfortunately, Tthe Flame Pokemon is weak to common Water-, Electric-, and Rock-type attacks, which, in tandem with addition to the above-mentioned Stealth Rock vulnerability weakness, means that Moltres faces significant competition for a position on a team, both offensively and defensively.
Offensive
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Ground
move 4: U-turn / Roost
ability: Pressure
item: Choice Specs / Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Modest / Timid
Moves
========
There are few moves that contain possess the sheer wallbreaking potential of Moltres's Hurricane. It has excellent neutral coverage as well as and perfect accuracy under rain. Fire Blast is a similarly powerful secondary STAB attack that nails most Steel-types that resist Hurricane, notably including Aegislash, which resist Hurricane. In the third slot, Hidden Power Fighting 2HKOes all variants of Tyranitar other than Assault Vest, and while also hittings Heatran super effectively., while Hidden Power Ground is more specifically for Heatran, as it deals woeful damage to Tyranitar. [U-turn]The move U-turn is always spelled with a hyphen. is ideal on Choice Specs sets for momentum and chip damage on predicted counters; Roost should only be used if alongside Life Orb is the preferred item as it mitigates Stealth Rock damage and Life Orb recoil.
Set Details
========
Maximum Speed and Special Attack along with a Modest nature is ideal to provide the greatest firepower and wallbreaking potential, though Timid is viable in order to outrun Jolly Excadrill, Gyarados, Mild Kyurem-B, Jolly Mamoswine, and Timid Rotom-W. The boost afforded by Choice Specs is too attractive to pass up; with Choice Specs and a Modest nature, Moltres can OHKO common threats it otherwise cannot, such as Mega Charizard X, Garchomp, Latios, and Terrakion; it cannot OHKO these Pokemon without Choice Specs. IHowever, if being locked into one move is unsatisfactory, a Life Orb is useful for the added versatility, though its recoil damage and the slight drop in power is are often undesirable.
Usage Tips
========
Use Moltres's powerful STAB moves to break down opposing walls;. U-turn should only be used if your opponent has a counter to Moltres. M, as most of the time you will be best served by choosing an appropriate STAB attack. Tyranitar has the potential to trap Moltres with Pursuit, especially with Stealth Rock on the field. As such, if your opponent has a healthy Tyranitar on their team it is often best to use U-turn until you scout what set it is, in order to letting you know when Hidden Power Fighting will KO it. As this set has no defensive investment, avoid switching directly into strong attacks unless they are resisted hits.
Team Options
========
Rain support is necessary to give Hurricane perfect accuracy, therefore so Politoed is a mandatory partner. Hazard-removal support is a similarly vital requirement; Starmie is a decent choice as it also threatens many of Moltres's offensive checks, including Keldeo, Terrakion, and Thundurus. Moltres can easily take Bug- and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie, as well as and handily defeat Celebi and Ferrothorn. Be aware However, keep in mind that using Starmie amplifies an Electric-type weakness, though. Defog Latios packing Earthquake is a great lure for Heatran and Tyranitar, as well as and it can potentially damage Aegislash, potentially damaging it to the point where enough so that it is 2HKOed by Hurricane. Terrakion is an excellent partner as it can smash Tyranitar, Heatran, and Chansey with its STAB Close Combat. Bisharp is a nice offensive check to Tyranitar, and it can threaten Aegislash and Chansey with Knock Off as well as while dealing solid damage to the latter with Pursuit. Moltres's U-turn can often bring Bisharp in safely against these Pokemon. Other offensive Pokemon that benefit from rain are good choices. Kabutops and Kingdra thrive in the later stages of a game, after Moltres has broken down opposing walls. Tornadus-T can forms a nice Hurricane core with Moltres and can also lure and defeat mutual checks with Superpower. Finally, Moltres's U turn is an excellent tool that can bring in Dugtrio to can trap and remove Heatran and Tyranitar, appreciating the opportunities it gets to switch in from Moltres's U-turn.
SubToxic
########
name: SubToxic
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Roost
move 4: Flamethrower
ability: Pressure
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
nature: Calm
Moves
========
The combination of Substitute, Roost, and Toxic works excellently with Pressure to stall out slower opponents. Substitute provides protection from status, which otherwise cripples Moltres, and is easy to set up thanks to Moltres's handy resistances. Any defensive Pokemon worth its salt loves a form of recovery; Roost provides this longevity for Moltres. Toxic is a great way to cripple common switch-ins, especially bulky Water-types such as Rotom-W and Jellicent, and f. Finally, Flamethrower is a decently strong STAB attack that has the added advantage of denting many Pokemon which that don't mind Toxic, such as Steel-types, Mega Venusaur, Poison Heal Gliscor, and Celebi.
Set Details
========
The given EVs and Calm nature emphasize special bulk, allowing Moltres to check the likes of Aegislash, Alakazam, Landorus, and, importantly, Mega Charizard Y, while also minimizing Stealth Rock damage. Leftovers is the item of choice for its useful HP restoration.
Usage Tips
========
This set is designed to stall out opposing Pokemon using with passive damage from Toxic while keeping healthy with Roost. Try to set up a Substitute on Pokemon who cannot break it, such as Skarmory, or when you expect the opponent to switch out. A good scenario to use Substitute is if your Moltres is on the field against a Ferrothorn. If you're not safely behind a Substitute, it is wise to keep in mind that Toxic should nearly always be used to hit Water-types as they switch in, as they will force Moltres out otherwise. It is also important to remember that Pressure will double the PP used by cost of moves used against Moltres, so it is feasible to stall out the PP of moves such as Stone Edge through the use of Substitute and Roost. Because Stealth Rock takes a huge 50% of Moltres's HP upon [switching -in]Use "switch-in" only to refer to a Pokemon that commonly switches in on another., you should play cautiously when it is on the field, as using Substitute once before switching out will mean that make Moltres is only useful only as death fodder unless you've previously removed Stealth Rock is removed. Although this set is investsed in Special Defense, you should recognize that Moltres's typing allows it to check physical attackers, too. Scizor and Conkeldurr can do very little outside of Knock Off., and Ground-types such as Excadrill that lack a Rock-type coverage move are also will be completely shut down.
Team Options
========
This Moltres set is best suited to for defensively inclined or balanced teams. In order for it to be effective, Defog or Rapid Spin support is a necessity; Excadrill has nice defensive synergy with Moltres and can demolish Tyranitar and Heatran with its STAB Earthquake. Mega Blastoise coves Moltres's Water-type vulnerability and Moltres can comfortably switch into Grass-type attacks aimed at Mega Blastoise. As far as Defog users go, Latios is an excellent choice, particularly variants carrying Earthquake, as it effectively can lures in and removes damage Heatran as well as dealing nice damage to and Tyranitar with Earthquake. In terms of a dDefensively core, bulky Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Gourgeist are great partners as they can switch into Electric- and Water-type moves. In return, Moltres can check Fire-type threats such as Mega Charizard Y and Volcarona. Teammates that can handle fast physical attackers such as Terrakion, Garchomp, and Talonflame are wise choices; Landorus-T and Rotom-W are effective in this pivot role and can often bring Moltres in safely with U-turn and Volt Switch, respectively. Landorus-T can also set up Stealth Rock to wear down opposing Pokemon.
Other Options
########
Moltres has [access to several useful options at its disposal]The original phrasing here sounded redundant., such as. Will-O-Wisp and Roar, which could potentially be used over Substitute and Toxic on the defensive set. This, allowings Moltres to counter Mega Mawile and prevent dangerous opponents from setting up, such as Belly Drum Azumarill and Mega Gyarados from setting up. Defog is possibly viable, though Moltres struggles to find space for it in its moveset, and. In addition, Moltres will often have to switch into Stealth Rock in order to use Defog, so hazard removal is best left to its teammates. Offensively, Moltres could utilize an Agility set, but setting up can be tough it has trouble finding opportunities to set up and often Moltres is usually better served by using its opportunities to firinge off powerful attacks rather than to attempting a to sweep. Finally, alternate moves such as Flamethrower, Overheat, and Air Slash are options over Fire Blast and Hurricane, though nearly always inferior choices.
Checks & Counters
########
**Stealth Rock**: As it Stealth Rock removes 50% of Moltres's health upon switching -in, if Stealth Rock is up, it prevents Moltres cannot from countering many of the threats it otherwise could , and is leaves it far more prone to being revenge killed.
**Special Walls**: Tyranitar, Heatran, Chansey, and Blissey easily take Moltres's STAB moves. Choice Specs HP Fighting does not 2HKO Assault Vest Tyranitar, while Scarf variants always live survive one hit and can retaliate with Stone Edge or Pursuit. However, Tyranitar doesn't like Will-O-Wisp, though. Specially defensive Heatran is not 2HKOed by HP Fighting, and can lay down Stealth Rock or cripple Moltres with Toxic, although it must be wary of HP Ground. Blissey and Chansey can take any hit comfortably, heal potential burns with Natural Cure, and ruin Moltres with status. Assault Vest Goodra is not 2HKOed by Choice Specs Hurricane and can retaliate with powerful attacks. [Sylveon also takes less than 50%, and can heal with Wish.]Consider describing what, if anything, Sylveon can do to Moltres in return. Rotom-W resists Moltres's dual STAB and can hit back with Hydro Pump or Volt Switch.
**Steel-types in Rain**: Steel-types like Aegislash and Jirachi can switch into Hurricane, and; though they are Moltres can 2HKOed by them with Fire Blast, it would prefer not to being locked into Fire Blast under rain is generally not a great situation for Moltres. Aegislash deals heavy damage with Shadow Ball, while Jirachi will cripple Moltres with paralysis.
**Pokemon that don't fear Flamethrower + Toxic**: Tentacruel and Magic Guard Clefable can't be worn down with Toxic and take little damage from Flamethrower. [Lum Berry and Substitute users that resist Flamethrower such as Garchomp and Gyarados can set up a Substitutes that defensive Moltres cannot immediately break.]This sentence primarily describes how Substitute users fare against Moltres. Do you mean to include how Lum Berry users fare in this sentence?
**Faster Pokemon**: Naturally faster Pokemon with super effective moves make for good checks. such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Starmie, and Thundurus are good examples here make for good checks. Swift Swim users such as Kingdra can take advantage of Moltres's rain support and OHKO it with powerful attacks.
TheManlyLadybug
Banned deucer.
Not sure if I have to have permission to do this, but here are a few things I saw that were wrong grammar-wise. In other words, rookie GP check here. Comments in green, deletions in red, and additions in blue.
TheManlyLadybug thanks for the check. I didn't implement most of it because I felt that it some parts changed the intention behind the writing, while others were incorrect (2HKOes is the correct form in this case, as it is a verb)
If you have any questions just shoot me a PM and i'll be happy to talk about it :)
If you have any questions just shoot me a PM and i'll be happy to talk about it :)
I know that its been QC approved an all, but isn't Moltres outclassed by Charizard? The only thing I can think of that it has over Charizard is the ability to hold an item that isn't a mega stone, which is balanced out by Charizard's unpredictability because of there being 2 mega stones.
Moltres and Charizard are not really comparable in an OU context. For one, offensive Moltres is best used on rain teams where it can spam Hurricane, something Charizard will never be able to do. Defensively, the only way Charizard could be comparable is through mega X's bulky will-o-wisp set, which aims to check many different threats to Moltres. See Agent Gibbs's post above for a detailed description of the things defensive Moltres can check or counter.
Amateur Check rollin through
Remove Add Comments
Remove Add Comments
Pretty good, just some odd words and phrases
Hi there. We've been talking about Moltres as a QC team, and SubToxic should be the only set. Offensive Moltres is kind of outclassed in this metagame. It is slow, and stuff like Tornadus(-T)/Swift Swimmers are more potent than and compete with it for valuable rain teamslots. It also has a typing that leaves it 4x SR weak, making it a liability because you potentially have to waste rain turns so you can Defog -- and you're forced to carry a Defogger, which is often undesirable. It is true that it can beat Ferrothorn, a major thorn in the side to rain teams, but there are plenty of things able to do this without all of the drawbacks of Moltres.
SubToxic has a definite niche. Pressure + Toxic + Roost with a cool defensive typing makes for a successful staller, and it has Flamethrower to roast competing Steels. One little thing: it at least needs to hit 240 for Bisharp, and 241 is a good number from there just to outspeed the occasional Naive Aegislash that wants to outspeed you and Head Smash. This results in a spread of 248 HP / 160 SpD / 100 Spe.
Nice job here overall!
SubToxic has a definite niche. Pressure + Toxic + Roost with a cool defensive typing makes for a successful staller, and it has Flamethrower to roast competing Steels. One little thing: it at least needs to hit 240 for Bisharp, and 241 is a good number from there just to outspeed the occasional Naive Aegislash that wants to outspeed you and Head Smash. This results in a spread of 248 HP / 160 SpD / 100 Spe.
Nice job here overall!
I'm happy with this, although I would like to see the offensive set stay. Sure, it has strong competition, but it can single handedly break teams open if it gets just one or two free turns. As i said, I'm not too fussed if it has to go, but i feel that it isn't outclassed
I'd like to hear an explanation why, because a lot of other QC members have the same opinion.
It's insanely strong - stronger than Tornadus because its lower speed makes running Modest viable. I've mentioned some of the Pokemon that are cleanly OHKOed in the analysis. As you said, it can beat Steel-types which is another small difference. I'll agree that these "niches" are tenuous, but worthy of a set imo. I can try to get some decent replays to support this when I have access to a computer later
Blissey, Jirachi, and Tentacruel aren't very common or good now; I don't think that they need to be mentioned here.
Blissey and Tentacruel take Flamethrower well and are immune to or get rid of Toxic upon switching. Tentacruel was rejected though so I guess that can be taken out. Jirachi got rejected too and loses outside of Rain (possibly even in Rain, depending on what it's running). There aren't many practical situations where, even in Rain, someone will leave any Steel type in against an offensive Moltres. Same for defensive, unless it has some way of beating it on 1 on 1 of course
Sturdynips
REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS
1/2
REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS
Overview
########
While the its Fire / Flying typing offers an unattractive 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, it also provides an array of resistances that allows Moltres to fulfill an interesting defensive niche. Pressure and reliable recovery in Roost are handy for a defensive Pokemon, allowing Moltres to stall out Pokemon that it checks by virtue of its typing, such as Lucario, Scizor, Mega Mawile, and Conkeldurr. Unfortunately, the Flame Pokemon is weak to common Water-, Electric-, and Rock-type attacks, which in addition to the above-mentioned Stealth Rock weakness, (RC) means that Moltres faces significant competition for a position on a team.
This feels a little bit lacking. Perhaps put a sentence at the front explaining how Moltres makes a good defensive Pokemon.
SubToxic
########
name: SubToxic
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Roost
move 4: Flamethrower
ability: Pressure
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 160 SpD / 100 Spe
nature: Calm
Moves
========
The combination of Substitute, Roost, and Toxic works excellently with Pressure to stall out slower opponents. Substitute provides protection from status, which otherwise cripples Moltres, and is easy to set up thanks to Moltres's handy resistances. Any defensive Pokemon worth its salt loves a form of recovery; Roost provides this longevity for Moltres. Toxic is a great way to cripple common switch-ins, especially bulky Water-types such as Rotom-W and Azumarill. Finally, Flamethrower is a decently strong STAB attack that has the added advantage of denting many Pokemon that don't mind Toxic, such as Steel-types, Mega Venusaur, Poison Heal Gliscor, and Celebi.
Set Details
========
The given EVs and Calm nature emphasize special bulk, allowing Moltres to check the likes of Aegislash, Alakazam, Landorus, and, importantly, Mega Charizard Y, while also minimizing Stealth Rock damage and allowing Moltres to outspeed Bisharp. Leftovers is the item of choice for its useful HP restoration.
Usage Tips
========
This set is designed to stall out opposing Pokemon with passive damage from Toxic while keeping healthy with Roost. Try to set up a Substitute on Pokemon who that cannot break it, such as Skarmory, or when you expect the opponent to switch out. A good scenario to use Substitute in is if your Moltres is on the field against a Ferrothorn. If you're Moltres is not safely behind a Substitute, keep in mind that Toxic should nearly always be used to hit Water-types as they switch in, as they will force Moltres out otherwise. It is also important to remember that Pressure will double the PP cost of moves used against Moltres, so it is feasible to stall out the PP of moves such as Stone Edge through the use of Substitute and Roost. Because Stealth Rock takes a huge 50% of Moltres's HP upon switching in, you should play cautiously when it is on the field, as using Substitute once before switching out will make Moltres only useful as death fodder unless you've previously removed Stealth Rock. Although this set invests in Special Defense, Moltres's typing allows it to check physical attackers, too. Scizor and Conkeldurr can do very little outside of Knock Off, and Ground-types such as Excadrill that lack a Rock-type coverage move will be completely shut down.
Team Options
========
This Moltres set is best suited for defensively inclined or balanced teams. In order for it to be effective, Defog or Rapid Spin support is a necessity; Excadrill has nice defensive synergy with Moltres and can demolish Tyranitar and Heatran with its STAB Earthquake. Mega Blastoise coves Moltres's Water-type vulnerability and Moltres can comfortably switch into Grass-type attacks aimed at Mega Blastoise. As far as Defog users go, Latios is an excellent choice, particularly variants carrying Earthquake, as it they effectively lures and removes Heatran as well as dealing and deal nice damage to Tyranitar. Defensively, bulky Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Gourgeist-XL are great partners as they can switch into Electric- and Water-type moves. In return, Moltres can check Fire-type threats such as Mega Charizard Y and Volcarona. Teammates that can handle fast physical attackers such as Terrakion, Garchomp, and Talonflame are wise choices; Landorus-T and Rotom-W are effective in this pivot role and can often bring Moltres in safely with U-turn and Volt Switch, respectively. Landorus-T can also set up Stealth Rock to wear down opposing Pokemon.
Other Options
########
Moltres has several useful options at its disposal. Will-O-Wisp and Roar could potentially be used over Substitute and Toxic on the defensive set, allowing Moltres to counter Mega Mawile and prevent dangerous opponents, such as Belly Drum Azumarill and Mega Gyarados, from setting up. An offensive set with Choice Specs and Hurricane is an option as it hits extremely hard, but this set is held back by strong competition from other rain abusers such as Tornadus-T, as well as Moltres's low Speed. Defog is possibly viable, though Moltres struggles to find space for it in its moveset. In addition, Moltres will often have to switch into Stealth Rock in order to use Defog, so entry hazard removal is best left to teammates.
Checks & Counters
########
**Stealth Rock**: As Stealth Rock removes 50% of Moltres's health upon switching in, it prevents Moltres from countering many of the threats it otherwise could, (RC) and leaves it far more prone to being revenge killed.
**Special Walls**: Tyranitar, Heatran, and Chansey easily take Moltres's STAB moves. Tyranitar can retaliate with Stone Edge or Pursuit, though it doesn't like Toxic or Will-O-Wisp. Specially defensive Heatran is immune to Flamethrower and Toxic, (RC) and can lay down Stealth Rock or cripple Moltres with Toxic. Chansey can take any hit comfortably, heal potential poison with Natural Cure, (AC) and ruin Moltres with status. Rotom-W resists Moltres's STAB moves and can hit back with Hydro Pump or Volt Switch, and Rest variants are unworried by Toxic.
**Pokemon that don't fear Flamethrower + Toxic**: rewrite and concise this; it sounds too long Magic Guard Clefable can't be worn down with Toxic and takes little damage from Flamethrower. Substitute users that resist Flamethrower such as Garchomp and Gyarados can set up a Substitute that defensive Moltres cannot immediately break. Similarly, setup sweepers carrying a Lum Berry can boost without fear against Moltres. Dragonite is a good example here.
**Faster Pokemon**: Naturally faster Pokemon with super effective moves such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Starmie, and Thundurus make for good checks, especially if Moltres is not behind a Substitute.
########
While the its Fire / Flying typing offers an unattractive 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, it also provides an array of resistances that allows Moltres to fulfill an interesting defensive niche. Pressure and reliable recovery in Roost are handy for a defensive Pokemon, allowing Moltres to stall out Pokemon that it checks by virtue of its typing, such as Lucario, Scizor, Mega Mawile, and Conkeldurr. Unfortunately, the Flame Pokemon is weak to common Water-, Electric-, and Rock-type attacks, which in addition to the above-mentioned Stealth Rock weakness, (RC) means that Moltres faces significant competition for a position on a team.
This feels a little bit lacking. Perhaps put a sentence at the front explaining how Moltres makes a good defensive Pokemon.
SubToxic
########
name: SubToxic
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Roost
move 4: Flamethrower
ability: Pressure
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 160 SpD / 100 Spe
nature: Calm
Moves
========
The combination of Substitute, Roost, and Toxic works excellently with Pressure to stall out slower opponents. Substitute provides protection from status, which otherwise cripples Moltres, and is easy to set up thanks to Moltres's handy resistances. Any defensive Pokemon worth its salt loves a form of recovery; Roost provides this longevity for Moltres. Toxic is a great way to cripple common switch-ins, especially bulky Water-types such as Rotom-W and Azumarill. Finally, Flamethrower is a decently strong STAB attack that has the added advantage of denting many Pokemon that don't mind Toxic, such as Steel-types, Mega Venusaur, Poison Heal Gliscor, and Celebi.
Set Details
========
The given EVs and Calm nature emphasize special bulk, allowing Moltres to check the likes of Aegislash, Alakazam, Landorus, and, importantly, Mega Charizard Y, while also minimizing Stealth Rock damage and allowing Moltres to outspeed Bisharp. Leftovers is the item of choice for its useful HP restoration.
Usage Tips
========
This set is designed to stall out opposing Pokemon with passive damage from Toxic while keeping healthy with Roost. Try to set up a Substitute on Pokemon who that cannot break it, such as Skarmory, or when you expect the opponent to switch out. A good scenario to use Substitute in is if your Moltres is on the field against a Ferrothorn. If you're Moltres is not safely behind a Substitute, keep in mind that Toxic should nearly always be used to hit Water-types as they switch in, as they will force Moltres out otherwise. It is also important to remember that Pressure will double the PP cost of moves used against Moltres, so it is feasible to stall out the PP of moves such as Stone Edge through the use of Substitute and Roost. Because Stealth Rock takes a huge 50% of Moltres's HP upon switching in, you should play cautiously when it is on the field, as using Substitute once before switching out will make Moltres only useful as death fodder unless you've previously removed Stealth Rock. Although this set invests in Special Defense, Moltres's typing allows it to check physical attackers, too. Scizor and Conkeldurr can do very little outside of Knock Off, and Ground-types such as Excadrill that lack a Rock-type coverage move will be completely shut down.
Team Options
========
This Moltres set is best suited for defensively inclined or balanced teams. In order for it to be effective, Defog or Rapid Spin support is a necessity; Excadrill has nice defensive synergy with Moltres and can demolish Tyranitar and Heatran with its STAB Earthquake. Mega Blastoise coves Moltres's Water-type vulnerability and Moltres can comfortably switch into Grass-type attacks aimed at Mega Blastoise. As far as Defog users go, Latios is an excellent choice, particularly variants carrying Earthquake, as it they effectively lures and removes Heatran as well as dealing and deal nice damage to Tyranitar. Defensively, bulky Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Gourgeist-XL are great partners as they can switch into Electric- and Water-type moves. In return, Moltres can check Fire-type threats such as Mega Charizard Y and Volcarona. Teammates that can handle fast physical attackers such as Terrakion, Garchomp, and Talonflame are wise choices; Landorus-T and Rotom-W are effective in this pivot role and can often bring Moltres in safely with U-turn and Volt Switch, respectively. Landorus-T can also set up Stealth Rock to wear down opposing Pokemon.
Other Options
########
Moltres has several useful options at its disposal. Will-O-Wisp and Roar could potentially be used over Substitute and Toxic on the defensive set, allowing Moltres to counter Mega Mawile and prevent dangerous opponents, such as Belly Drum Azumarill and Mega Gyarados, from setting up. An offensive set with Choice Specs and Hurricane is an option as it hits extremely hard, but this set is held back by strong competition from other rain abusers such as Tornadus-T, as well as Moltres's low Speed. Defog is possibly viable, though Moltres struggles to find space for it in its moveset. In addition, Moltres will often have to switch into Stealth Rock in order to use Defog, so entry hazard removal is best left to teammates.
Checks & Counters
########
**Stealth Rock**: As Stealth Rock removes 50% of Moltres's health upon switching in, it prevents Moltres from countering many of the threats it otherwise could, (RC) and leaves it far more prone to being revenge killed.
**Special Walls**: Tyranitar, Heatran, and Chansey easily take Moltres's STAB moves. Tyranitar can retaliate with Stone Edge or Pursuit, though it doesn't like Toxic or Will-O-Wisp. Specially defensive Heatran is immune to Flamethrower and Toxic, (RC) and can lay down Stealth Rock or cripple Moltres with Toxic. Chansey can take any hit comfortably, heal potential poison with Natural Cure, (AC) and ruin Moltres with status. Rotom-W resists Moltres's STAB moves and can hit back with Hydro Pump or Volt Switch, and Rest variants are unworried by Toxic.
**Pokemon that don't fear Flamethrower + Toxic**: rewrite and concise this; it sounds too long Magic Guard Clefable can't be worn down with Toxic and takes little damage from Flamethrower. Substitute users that resist Flamethrower such as Garchomp and Gyarados can set up a Substitute that defensive Moltres cannot immediately break. Similarly, setup sweepers carrying a Lum Berry can boost without fear against Moltres. Dragonite is a good example here.
**Faster Pokemon**: Naturally faster Pokemon with super effective moves such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Starmie, and Thundurus make for good checks, especially if Moltres is not behind a Substitute.
1/2
Last edited: