Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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You obviously dont get the point some of these people are suggesting. Good monotype players know how to handle a problem. Although I may not be that "good", I can still handle Talonflame under certain situations. Though resources for dealing with Talon are limited, they are possible to find.

But thats all I have to say, theres not much else I can say anyways since the ban already took place, despite countless people not feeling satisfied with how things turned out.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
While I wish to reiterate that I don't see a problem in the way Hollywood approached the ban, the main reason I'm posting is to give my opinions on Swift Swim.

Overall, Swift Swim isn't broken. It was available last gen as well, and although it was barely used because of the Drizzle + SS ban, I did see a few SS water teams and they worked well, but were certainly counterable. This gen, a few things have changed (for example, people have less things to deal with weather because weather's less common), but Swift Swim on its own is still perfectly counterable.
The problems are Drizzle (which allows it to be set up very easily), and Damp Rock (which allow it to be set up for eight turns). Taunt being unable to stop the rain, and the rain lasting for a long time are both very strong, but once again neither is broken on its own.
So overall, I would want a Damp Rock + Swift Swim complex ban, though I'm not sure if this is the best option. What do other people think on the topic?
(Hint: Get back on topic)
 
The basis of everyone's argument here seems to be based around the fact that they couldn't vote. That's completely invalid. Behind every decision there needs to be a reason. If there is no reason then most likely that decision is going to be wrong.
Not allowing users to vote alienates them from the community. If you dont allow people to participate than there can be no community. That's the real problem here. Regardless of wether or not they made the right call ( I for one think they did) I think there is a massive gap between the administration and the everyday user, voting is one step that can bridge that gap.
 
While I wish to reiterate that I don't see a problem in the way Hollywood approached the ban, the main reason I'm posting is to give my opinions on Swift Swim.

Overall, Swift Swim isn't broken. It was available last gen as well, and although it was barely used because of the Drizzle + SS ban, I did see a few SS water teams and they worked well, but were certainly counterable. This gen, a few things have changed (for example, people have less things to deal with weather because weather's less common), but Swift Swim on its own is still perfectly counterable.
The problems are Drizzle (which allows it to be set up very easily), and Damp Rock (which allow it to be set up for eight turns). Taunt being unable to stop the rain, and the rain lasting for a long time are both very strong, but once again neither is broken on its own.
So overall, I would want a Damp Rock + Swift Swim complex ban, though I'm not sure if this is the best option. What do other people think on the topic?
(Hint: Get back on topic)
In Gen V, Drizzle+SS was banned for the combination of speed and power it gave Kingdra, Kabutops, etc. The main reason for the ban was because Drizzle boosts Water-type STAB in addition to the Speed of Swift Swimmers. With Gen VI coming around, Drizzle is no longer permanent, so you can basically stall out the Rain and the Swift Swimmers can't sweep. So, in OU, the combination of Drizzle+SS was unbanned.

However, in Monotype, for certain types, there is no such thing as stalling out Drizzle. You can't just slap Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, or Chansey on any team you want. Mono-Fire auto-loses to mono-Water no matter what, as neither Charizard nor Ninetales can touch Politoed. Mono-Normal's only answer to mono-Water is Chansey, which is shaky at best thanks to Kabutops. Mono-Electric has nothing to take on a Jolly Kabutops in Rain other than Scarf Jolteon, Scarf Electrode, and random Sashed mons. No member of a mono-Dragon team (with the exceptions of Latias and Goodra) can take Ice Beams, or Kingdra's Dragon STAB. Mono-Flying flat out loses to Kabutops thanks to its lack of priority users (and no, Talonflame would not have helped) and mixed walls. Jolly Kabutops even outruns Timid Scarf Thundurus-I. Mono-Bug's best answer is defensive Mega Scizor, which has to be 2HKOed by either Kingdra or Kabutops depending on its EVs (and is 2HKOed after Rocks regardless). Mono-Ghost, mono-Dark, and mono-Psychic are pretty screwed too, with mono-Ghost relying on Aegislash and mono-Psychic on AV Metagross, neither of which can take down more than 1 Swift Swimmer in any given game. The only types that can consistently beat Water are Steel, Grass, and Poison, the former two because of Ferrothorn and the latter two because of Mega Venusaur.

On the other hand, the above scenarios are assuming the mono-Water team gets Drizzle up, and then gets their sweeper in reasonably safely so that it can then proceed to wreak havoc. We all know that's a lot harder than it sounds. But is it really that difficult? Keep in mind, that if the opposing team has no way to deal with it, it only needs to enter the game and take less than 50%, so it can survive six rounds of LO recoil. Neither Kingdra nor Kabutops can be considered "super frail". If the Water user times his Politoed switch-in correctly, Kingdra or Kabutops can easily get a switch-in on a foe that can't damage it much, for example, Charizard (which Politoed completely screws upon switching in). Also, mono-Water has a lot more mons than just Politoed, Kingdra, and Kabutops. It has a scary amount of Shell Smashers, such as Omastar and Gorebyss. It's also got Mega Gyarados, another opportunity to sweep. Gorebyss can also SmashPass, which basically eliminates the need to set up Drizzle before Kingdra or Kabutops plows through everything. Or, pass the Shell Smash to Keldeo. Good game.

I do believe Swift Swimmers need some sort of nerf, whether it be a Drizzle+SS ban or Damp Rock+SS ban. But on the subject of a Damp Rock+SS ban, would it really be enough? Normal Drizzle gives the Swift Swimmer 3 turns to wreck shit. In any given game while playing Talonflame, that's the number of turns you expected Talonflame to last before dying to recoil (unless of course you ran the Stallbreaker set). The fact that a few monotypes have less checks to Swift Swimmers than Bug had to Talonflame doesn't really help here. The difference between Swift Swim and Talonflame is that Swift Swim requires a lot more preparation, but is more powerful.
 
In Gen V, Drizzle+SS was banned for the combination of speed and power it gave Kingdra, Kabutops, etc. The main reason for the ban was because Drizzle boosts Water-type STAB in addition to the Speed of Swift Swimmers. With Gen VI coming around, Drizzle is no longer permanent, so you can basically stall out the Rain and the Swift Swimmers can't sweep. So, in OU, the combination of Drizzle+SS was unbanned.

However, in Monotype, for certain types, there is no such thing as stalling out Drizzle. You can't just slap Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, or Chansey on any team you want. Mono-Fire auto-loses to mono-Water no matter what, as neither Charizard nor Ninetales can touch Politoed. Mono-Normal's only answer to mono-Water is Chansey, which is shaky at best thanks to Kabutops. Mono-Electric has nothing to take on a Jolly Kabutops in Rain other than Scarf Jolteon, Scarf Electrode, and random Sashed mons. No member of a mono-Dragon team (with the exceptions of Latias and Goodra) can take Ice Beams, or Kingdra's Dragon STAB. Mono-Flying flat out loses to Kabutops thanks to its lack of priority users (and no, Talonflame would not have helped) and mixed walls. Jolly Kabutops even outruns Timid Scarf Thundurus-I. Mono-Bug's best answer is defensive Mega Scizor, which has to be 2HKOed by either Kingdra or Kabutops depending on its EVs (and is 2HKOed after Rocks regardless). Mono-Ghost, mono-Dark, and mono-Psychic are pretty screwed too, with mono-Ghost relying on Aegislash and mono-Psychic on AV Metagross, neither of which can take down more than 1 Swift Swimmer in any given game. The only types that can consistently beat Water are Steel, Grass, and Poison, the former two because of Ferrothorn and the latter two because of Mega Venusaur.

On the other hand, the above scenarios are assuming the mono-Water team gets Drizzle up, and then gets their sweeper in reasonably safely so that it can then proceed to wreak havoc. We all know that's a lot harder than it sounds. But is it really that difficult? Keep in mind, that if the opposing team has no way to deal with it, it only needs to enter the game and take less than 50%, so it can survive six rounds of LO recoil. Neither Kingdra nor Kabutops can be considered "super frail". If the Water user times his Politoed switch-in correctly, Kingdra or Kabutops can easily get a switch-in on a foe that can't damage it much, for example, Charizard (which Politoed completely screws upon switching in). Also, mono-Water has a lot more mons than just Politoed, Kingdra, and Kabutops. It has a scary amount of Shell Smashers, such as Omastar and Gorebyss. It's also got Mega Gyarados, another opportunity to sweep. Gorebyss can also SmashPass, which basically eliminates the need to set up Drizzle before Kingdra or Kabutops plows through everything. Or, pass the Shell Smash to Keldeo. Good game.

I do believe Swift Swimmers need some sort of nerf, whether it be a Drizzle+SS ban or Damp Rock+SS ban. But on the subject of a Damp Rock+SS ban, would it really be enough? Normal Drizzle gives the Swift Swimmer 3 turns to wreck shit. In any given game while playing Talonflame, that's the number of turns you expected Talonflame to last before dying to recoil (unless of course you ran the Stallbreaker set). The fact that a few monotypes have less checks to Swift Swimmers than Bug had to Talonflame doesn't really help here. The difference between Swift Swim and Talonflame is that Swift Swim requires a lot more preparation, but is more powerful.
First off I believe swift swim needs a nerf, so I will make my position on this issue clear. A mechanic that basically doubles the speed and adds a choice band/specs to water pokemon is pretty overkill for teams not carrying a different weather inducer, mega venu, or normal cores. With the option to add Keldeo with a CM sub set onto water teams then even Normal teams will start to struggle against Swift Swim water.

That being said the examples AOPSUser brought up have glaring errors. Mono Fire does have a bad time against Swift Swim but its not an auto loss, usually the match gets decided on which pokes each side starts with. If the fire user starts with Chari - Y and the water user starts with Politoed, then the water user has to switch because when Chari goes Mega, Drought is reapplied, combined with Solar beam which ever poke the water user switches to will take a big hit. Afterwards its a matter of prediction, its not hopeless good fire users have won against Swift Swim users (admittedly Talonflame does play a significant part in this). If the Swift Swim team does not have a stall breaker like Keldeo, or to an extent Mega Gyara, free switching between Chansey and Pory2 will safely stall out the rain and also give the ability to inflict status such as paralysis from Thunder Wave onto the Swift Swim pokemon, making them a lot more manageable. Here are calcs so you can have an easier time understanding, based on 3 prominent pokemon on swift swim teams, Kabutops, Kingdra and Ludicolo

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 136-162 (19.3 - 23%)/252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 187-222 (26.5 - 31.5%)

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 114-136 (16.1 - 19.3%)/252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 157-187 (22.3 - 26.5%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Rain: 133-157 (35.5 - 41.9%)

Now lets move on to Electric, they do have pokemon that can force Kabutops to switch Magnezone just needs full HP investment to comfortably eat a Rain and Life Orb boosted Waterfall in the rain and KO back with thunderbolt, Rotom-Wash can do so as well. If the water user carries Lanturn however then its a different story, as Lanturn safely walls most SpA oriented electric pokemon barring Mega Ampharos due to Mold Breaker even then Lanturn still has enough Bulk to withstand multiple dragon pulses/discharges to confuse ray back or inflict lucky burns via scald. Here again are calcs to back up my points

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone in Rain: 230-270 (66.8 - 78.4%)/252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 203-239 (66.7 - 78.6%)

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 156-184 (34.3 - 40.5%) / 252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 166-196 (36.5 - 43.1%)

As for Dragon teams, I do not have enough experience on this matter, but I think you are right that Swift Swim is hard to dragon types to overcome. I will try to get Soma to comment on this since he has some success on the ladder and he has faced Swift Swim teams.

Im not entirely convinced Flying is at a complete loss as you've suggested first off no one in their right mind would send in a Thundurus in on a Kabutops, not when Skarmory can wall it so safely even in the rain. Thundurus is much more better served as a late game sweeper or as a utility pokemon to prankster thunder wave a threat.

Bug teams actually have a decent time vs Swift Swim. Once Sticky Web is setup, a scarved Heracross instantly becomes a threat with moxie close combats threatening to sweep the team. Once enough debuffs are wracked up Hera can simply switch out and repeat the process after the fodder dies. Positioning is key here in that Kabu must be available to spin away that hazard if needed.

Ghost struggles, im not even going to try here, I can be wrong and if so someone post the reasons and the why so Ghost users can know what to do.

Dark has a decent chance unless facing Sub CM Keldeo, the water user has numerous opportunities to send in Keldeo and setup a sub against a dark team, once this happens its hard for the Dark user to get out of that situation.

Psychic actually has a pretty easy time countering Swift Swim, choice gardevoir with trace and thunderbolt/moonblast works wonders.

Steel will face trouble against a Swift Swim user with a keldeo on their team. After softening up Ferrothorn with Ludicolo, Keldeo can then come in and finish it secret sword. Of course nothing is this easy but keeping in mind while the pokemon are switching around eating Rain boosted stab water attacks will take a toll on the Steel team.

Grass/Poison finally does have it easy. Mega Venu is a hard counter and it is an obstacle for swift swim teams to overcome.

On the subject of baton passing shell smash with swift swim pokemon, that is very unlikely to succeed unless you opponent is off their game no player should give the water user the turns needed to first switch into huntail/gorebyss then allow them to do a shell smash and then baton pass it to a pokemon. Im sorry but with the limited turns on Rain, it is not needed and frankly a waste of a turn. Rain boosted water attacks are usually enough to land KOs especially with Life Orb/Specs/Band boost on most pokes that aren't ev'ed to tank hits. And the pokes that do tank hits usually have some sort of utility move to cripple the threat like thunder wave.

In the future AOPSUser I would hope you take effort to test out your opinions before you post them. Your brand of theorymonning doesn't help the tier and in fact perpetuates ignorance.

But you are correct that Swift Swim needs a nerf/ban though. Swift Swim by itself is counterable, but with the huge pool of pokes a water user can draw upon, they can get pokemon to cover the weaknesses in the team Keldeo and Lanturn being good examples.
 
Let's face it, the only ones who don't struggle with swift swims are the teams that already have the advantage or the people who people who build a part of their team around beating it. I run Heliolisk on my mono normal just to deal with swift swim. Pory 2 just spams recover and ditto does what it can. Politoad does not go dow easily. It lives brave birds from a staraptor and then one shots it after with an Ice beam.
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 309-364 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Heliolisk isn't the best way to rid it either seeing as poli comes in to make it rain and then leaves to a ground/water type forcing me to run some type of grass move to deal with those.

As for Dragon and flying, they have an even worse time seeing as most swift swimmers carry and ice or rock type stab. Psychic does an alright job, but only if things wall and carry thunder wave. Fire does have a tough time with it but stealth rocks are what kills fire teams and with Talon gone, they have little hope left. Since Talon is gone, I think this should go too.
 
Grass is gonna benefit the most out of the Tflame ban because all it really had was two checks, and then running gimmicky stuff like bulky builds with coba berries. I think the worst part was that there were no revenge killers period. Just theorymonning here, but I think Rotom Mow might be able to beat Mega Pinsir due to resisting it's stabs, being immune to EQ and being able to fire off SE electric hits. Ferro could probably deal with it as well, though a +2 EQ might not be all that hot.

Fire will be just fine. Most fire teams I've seen have been sun teams and got along well enough without a BB to spam. Plus they have both Mega Zards now, and those things are brutal.

Flying still has plenty of threatening sweepers in it's own right, though none as really brain dead as talon is. They've also got both Zards as well as Mega Gyarados and the therian trio. There's also Honchkrow and Stararpor who are both deadly in their own rights. Granted, fairies put a damper on Honchkrow's sweeping potential, but I reckon one he gets his streak started, the only ones he really has to worry about are Azumarill, Gardevoir and Mawile.

Now swift swim, I'm not too sure about that. It's been a while since I've played mono cause I've been messing around in ubers. It's not bothered me horribly cause I use Mono Dark, and we've got a lot of priority to throw around. I think when I first got started, I was using Sableye to set up sun for Mega Houndoom sweeps, so it was a weather war for most of the game. There's also ttar who can bring out another counter weather.

In reply to the above user, Steel has Klefki who can prankster paralyze just about every swift swimmer, and with fire attacks neutred, unless they've got hard hitting EQs, they're stuck there.

Honestly, I'm not really sure on that one. I've beat it well enough on my own, but I can see how it can be problematic for other types. I could go either way on that really.
 
As a dragon user myself, and having laddered to number 4 once and stopping (mostly because I'm lazy) I have to sway Swift Swim is incredibly difficult to deal with. First off, we have to consider lot of SS water monos put an ice move on 2/3 of their pokemon, and the only dragon with a neutrality to ice is Kyurem, which can't continually take a ton of life orb ice beams. Also, A 252/0 Assault Vest Goodra will take about 40-50% from a Life Orb ice beam, so you really only have one shot at taking out an Ice Beamer with it. Not to mention several ice punchers. Also, Kingdra is nigh on unstoppable in the rain if it's a band/scarf with a Dragon STAB. The case tends to be if it's physical, you can slow it down with Goodra, and revenge with a scarf. If it's special, you can pray your goodra is at full health, but even then sometimes it isn't enough. Multiscale Dragonite can come in with a clean switch, but if stealth rocks are up, this is rendered useless because it can't take the hit otherwise. Frankly, if they immediately switch in to Kingdra, 7 turns is more than enough to sweep a dragon team completely, not to mention if they switch out and set their run up again.
 
seriously tho so many people said that its been proven in the forums that bug/grass/fighting can't handle talon...if people actually read what was said before they should realize that people can do many things. Add a rock type for example, have trouble on mono bug still? Band scizor with quick attack has basically 90% chance to do over 50% with quick attack. Consider this centralizing? THIS IS MONO, you need to be able to counter your weaknesses. Adding stuff like this and thinking outside of the box is what makes the best mono users so good. If you can't do that switch to a easy type to use like psychic ask for help or just don't play mono.
 
seriously tho so many people said that its been proven in the forums that bug/grass/fighting can't handle talon...if people actually read what was said before they should realize that people can do many things. Add a rock type for example, have trouble on mono bug still? Band scizor with quick attack has basically 90% chance to do over 50% with quick attack. Consider this centralizing? THIS IS MONO, you need to be able to counter your weaknesses. Adding stuff like this and thinking outside of the box is what makes the best mono users so good. If you can't do that switch to a easy type to use like psychic ask for help or just don't play mono.
I believe we already finished and have walked past the big deal with talon. #Spheal with it.
 
As a dragon user myself, and having laddered to number 4 once and stopping (mostly because I'm lazy) I have to sway Swift Swim is incredibly difficult to deal with. First off, we have to consider lot of SS water monos put an ice move on 2/3 of their pokemon, and the only dragon with a neutrality to ice is Kyurem, which can't continually take a ton of life orb ice beams. Also, A 252/0 Assault Vest Goodra will take about 40-50% from a Life Orb ice beam, so you really only have one shot at taking out an Ice Beamer with it. Not to mention several ice punchers. Also, Kingdra is nigh on unstoppable in the rain if it's a band/scarf with a Dragon STAB. The case tends to be if it's physical, you can slow it down with Goodra, and revenge with a scarf. If it's special, you can pray your goodra is at full health, but even then sometimes it isn't enough. Multiscale Dragonite can come in with a clean switch, but if stealth rocks are up, this is rendered useless because it can't take the hit otherwise. Frankly, if they immediately switch in to Kingdra, 7 turns is more than enough to sweep a dragon team completely, not to mention if they switch out and set their run up again.
Also yeah, you may remember me from frost as invictus wyvern and as a bug user i found swift swim harder to deal with majority of the time than talonflame. Seriously though, swift swim has so much stuff to use so its not like you can add 1 check or counter and say that you can handle it. For example you can add a belly drum poliwrath with swift swim with like rotom-wash for screens and say gg 6 turns later.
 
Good to see we are finally having a discussion.

Swift Swim is definitely the next issue I would like to address in this Metagame, and I can't say it's because my Main Monotype Teams suffers from it. The reasons that I would like it to be the next thing that is dealt with are many and complex, but I will reserve my arguments until the time comes, as the Metagame just experienced a change, and, even though we can safely assume that it will still be a problem, we aren't sure if SS will be as much as one in the new Meta as it was in the previous, Talonflame-less one. That being said, I would like to reiterate that we should also discuss how the current Meta is- how exactly were the Types we were fighting for effected? Is Bug the threat it used to be now? Is Fighting better now? Has the usage on Grass even risen? Let's focus on the now, and let the future pan itself out. The Metagame should be allowed to breathe before we bring up another topic. Doesn't mean it should not be talked about at all, mind you, because I personally think it does. Just be sure to be mindful of the now.
 
Well Smogon, I'm new here and enjoyed it so far but too much stuff gets locked into this tier or that tier and here's what you can use and here's what you can't use I dunno it's not for me I guess. I thought mono would be cool but not played like that. Not all pokemon types are created equal. If your grass or bug type team can't hang with a fire or flying team it's just how it is. Seems childish "my grass team is so killer and I'm a good battler but my opponent can't use this one or that one if they make a team that's this type or that type" I'm disappointed
 
Well Smogon, I'm new here and enjoyed it so far but too much stuff gets locked into this tier or that tier and here's what you can use and here's what you can't use I dunno it's not for me I guess. I thought mono would be cool but not played like that. Not all pokemon types are created equal. If your grass or bug type team can't hang with a fire or flying team it's just how it is. Seems childish "my grass team is so killer and I'm a good battler but my opponent can't use this one or that one if they make a team that's this type or that type" I'm disappointed
You have to realize some monotypes have a relative lack of ways to deal with some of their largest threats. This is one of the reasons Talonflame received a ban. Also, other good examples would be Mamoswine to a Dragon Team, Gatsrodon to an Electric team, and Scizor to a Fairy or Ice team. I'm not saying that these pokemon completely and instantly beat a type, but they are massive threats to a type due to lack of coverage or priority STAB that can OHKO a large portion of the type's pokemon. And yes, not all types are created equal. Clearly we wouldn't be going through a ban plea ( for lack of a better word) for Swift Swim or have banned Talonflame is all types were. Swift Swim is a force that makes Water far stronger than many other monos, and Talonflame made other monos hard to use/ limited them to very few options. Flying, Psychic, and Steel are also some of the most popular types because they have a versatility or coverage other types don't have. Steel has access to some of the best walls/tanks in the game, as does Psychic. Flying has been Dual Typed with every other type in the game, something no other type can brag about, so it should be clear cut why it has versatility.
 
You have to realize some monotypes have a relative lack of ways to deal with some of their largest threats. This is one of the reasons Talonflame received a ban. Also, other good examples would be Mamoswine to a Dragon Team, Gatsrodon to an Electric team, and Scizor to a Fairy or Ice team. I'm not saying that these pokemon completely and instantly beat a type, but they are massive threats to a type due to lack of coverage or priority STAB that can OHKO a large portion of the type's pokemon. And yes, not all types are created equal. Clearly we wouldn't be going through a ban plea ( for lack of a better word) for Swift Swim or have banned Talonflame is all types were. Swift Swim is a force that makes Water far stronger than many other monos, and Talonflame made other monos hard to use/ limited them to very few options. Flying, Psychic, and Steel are also some of the most popular types because they have a versatility or coverage other types don't have. Steel has access to some of the best walls/tanks in the game, as does Psychic. Flying has been Dual Typed with every other type in the game, something no other type can brag about, so it should be clear cut why it has versatility.
I'm sorry I just disagree. I truly think smogon does a lot of things right like having truly dedicated people analyze pokemon and help new players and such. In my opinion though this ban like some others in some other tiers it just kills competition instead of promoting it. In competition there are winners and losers. Some teams are better than other teams. It's like taking star players away from one team because the other team can't handle them, that's charitable and gives them a false sense of being better than they are. I feel a bad match up should be a bad match up and the trainer should be aware of what type they are choosing instead of feeling they are better than they are because the rules get bent in their favor by not allowing the opposing team access to their best available talents and tactics. How can a grass trainer feel rewarded and competitively viable knowing the other team wasn't allowed to use certain things? It's just not competitive I feel it's a joke. No offense to others who feel differently, my opinion is irrelevant so I won't continue any further, and the fact that a single person can decide how everybody will play is also IMO just not fair either, but I digress.
 
Fairy Teams are able to use their choice of Fairy/Steel type to hamper the effort of Scizor (with one of them being able to prankster Reflect) while Mono Rock is capable of manhandling Scizor with Meggron if they so choose too as it is their greatest assest defense wise against them. Ice has a lot of problems by itself and I don't know much about it to go into.
Well, 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 114-134 (28.9 - 34%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery. I don't know, who actually uses Ice mono?
 
Well, 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 114-134 (28.9 - 34%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery. I don't know, who actually uses Ice mono?
I see it plenty but as I said I do not use it to properly say what is their usual Scizor destroyer so don't act like I said no one used it when it was not the case.
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
Well, 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 114-134 (28.9 - 34%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery. I don't know, who actually uses Ice mono?
I do and it's quite viable actually given the prevalence of mono-dragon and flying (though with Talonflame's ban it's probably going to drop in usage). Avalugg can handle Scizor quite well, though more offensive teams have to resort to tactics like Focus Sash+Hidden Power Fire.
Finally Rotom-F is faster, is not weak to BP and can cripple Scizor with WoW.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
I'm sorry I just disagree. I truly think smogon does a lot of things right like having truly dedicated people analyze pokemon and help new players and such. In my opinion though this ban like some others in some other tiers it just kills competition instead of promoting it. In competition there are winners and losers. Some teams are better than other teams. It's like taking star players away from one team because the other team can't handle them, that's charitable and gives them a false sense of being better than they are. I feel a bad match up should be a bad match up and the trainer should be aware of what type they are choosing instead of feeling they are better than they are because the rules get bent in their favor by not allowing the opposing team access to their best available talents and tactics. How can a grass trainer feel rewarded and competitively viable knowing the other team wasn't allowed to use certain things? It's just not competitive I feel it's a joke. No offense to others who feel differently, my opinion is irrelevant so I won't continue any further, and the fact that a single person can decide how everybody will play is also IMO just not fair either, but I digress.
If you feel that way, I look forward to facing your mono team with my team of Lugia, Ho-oh, Arceus-flying, Yveltal, Rayquaza, and Shaymin-S. Or maybe I should swap one of them for Talon?
There's a reason we have bans, and that's that certain pokemon are OP, even if only in certain situations. To take Shaymin-S as an example, Talonflame would happily counter it. But the fact that you're pretty much required to bring something like Talonflame simply to counter it means that it's broken, as it restricts teambuilding, thus it's banned. I see little difference between this and the Talon ban. Now can we please move on?

As for Swift Swim, I've built a flying team with beating Swift Swim as one of the main reasons for it. It works quite well, and it's won a tourney so it can do things other than simply Swift Swim. Some replays:
Vs. a Swift Swim team: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oumonotype-121908693
Finals of a tourney (to show it's competitive to some extent other than vs. Swift Swim): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-121910817
 
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Nobod
If you feel that way, I look forward to facing your mono team with my team of Lugia, Ho-oh, Arceus-flying, Yveltal, Rayquaza, and Shaymin-S. Or maybe I should swap one of them for Talon?
There's a reason we have bans, and that's that certain pokemon are OP, even if only in certain situations. To take Shaymin-S as an example, Talonflame would happily counter it. But the fact that you're pretty much required to bring something like Talonflame simply to counter it means that it's broken, as it restricts teambuilding, thus it's banned. I see little difference between this and the Talon ban. Now can we please move on?

As for Swift Swim, I've built a flying team with beating Swift Swim as one of the main reasons for it. It works quite well, and it's won a tourney so it can do things other than simply Swift Swim. Some replays:
Welp, replays aren't loading right now. I'll edit the post and put them in. Alternatively you can search for them yourselves, they're the top two from Death on Wings.
I personally don't mind facing top legendaries win or lose, but I understand putting them into their own tier due to their very high stats and power. Talonflame does not posess those high stats, it's frail with a 4x weakness, weak to stealth rocks and hurts itself doing it's best priority move. That's hardly comparable to the uber team you listed. And add to the fact that it was just one persons decision to ban it in a community environment is just gross and distgustingly unfair. And judging from your other posts you disagree and majorly suck up to the guy responsible for the ban and that's fine too. But if you would like to "please move on" than you shouldn't reply without expecting a reply in return
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
I personally don't mind facing top legendaries win or lose, but I understand putting them into their own tier due to their very high stats and power. Talonflame does not posess those high stats, it's frail with a 4x weakness, weak to stealth rocks and hurts itself doing it's best priority move. That's hardly comparable to the uber team you listed. And add to the fact that it was just one persons decision to ban it in a community environment is just gross and distgustingly unfair. And judging from your other posts you disagree and majorly suck up to the guy responsible for the ban and that's fine too. But if you would like to "please move on" than you shouldn't reply without expecting a reply in return
*sigh*

Ok, I would like to take the comparison with Shaymin-S a little further. From what you’re saying, I’d guess you’ve rarely used it? Because I can tell you, with a 2x Stealth Rock weakness, weakness to four very common types (and one less common type), with the ever-present ice moves being 4x Super effective. With a BST of 600 (including defenses of 100 / 75 / 75), it’s barely got ubers-level stats. Its movepool, while allowing it to run a Special attacking set well, is barely the best ever, having to resort to HP ice or fire for coverage. And yet, it got a unanimous vote to ban.

The BW metagame had officially begun with the upheld clauses and preliminary banlist, and this round just added to the banlist. Shaymin-S was on the top of the list, boasting blazing Speed and a high Special Attack stat, with the few things that could counter it being flinched to death by Air Slash and weakened by the 80% chance of a Special Defense drop from Seed Flare. It received the second of two unanimous ban votes in Smogon history, the other being DPP UU Yanmega.
Source:
http://www.smogon.com/tiers/ou/ban_history

Ok, Talonflame’s got a reasonably low Attack stat compared to Shaymin-S, but then a good scarf outspeeds and KOs Shaymin. For example, Scarf Terrakion can happily switch in on Shaymin-S’s Air Slash (which it will be spamming if facing, say, a fighting team), and OHKO with Stone Edge. Talonflame’s priority makes it close to, if not entirely, uncounterable by these teams, and the way Monotype works means that you can’t simply bring a counter (which you could for Shaymin, yet it still got banned).

The fact of the matter is that the bans are entirely comparable. I'm not saying they're the same; there was the issue of luck involved with Shaymin-S' 60% flinch rate, and they were in different surroundings, but saying that they're completely different (or even different at all to a large degree) seems silly.

Simply because I agree with both Hollywood's decision and how he handled the decision-making process doesn't make me a suck-up. I'm allowed to agree with someone (whether they're of a higher position than me or not) without simply doing it because of vested interest, and in fact I had a vested interest in Talonflame not being banned yet I argued for the ban the entire way through. I'd rather people didn't come to false conclusions about me then insult me, if they could simply think about things for a short while and realize how silly they're being.

As for a reply, feel free to reply to anything I say. Feel free to knock down any of my arguments. But at least provide reasoning as to why you think I'm wrong rather than just saying "You're wrong", insulting me and doing nothing else. If you have any actual reasoning, please feel free to bring it up.


Swift Swim. Does it affect stally teams or offensive more? I've rarely run bulkier teams high up the ladder, so I'm not an expert, but I think bringing it up would be necessary, we need to know exactly how it's affecting the metagame before decisions can be reached. For example, stally teams can more easily stall out five turns of rain, so the way of dealing with Swift Swim might involve banning Damp Rock + Swift Swim, whereas a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban might be needed for offensive teams due to them preferring the momentum gained from an opponent needing to use effectively a setup move. Thoughts?
 
Swift Swim. Does it affect stally teams or offensive more? I've rarely run bulkier teams high up the ladder, so I'm not an expert, but I think bringing it up would be necessary, we need to know exactly how it's affecting the metagame before decisions can be reached. For example, stally teams can more easily stall out five turns of rain, so the way of dealing with Swift Swim might involve banning Damp Rock + Swift Swim, whereas a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban might be needed for offensive teams due to them preferring the momentum gained from an opponent needing to use effectively a setup move. Thoughts?
Swift Swim by itself affects Hyper Offensive teams more simply due to the fact that unless they are running strong priority, it is hard to top +2 speed and +1 to water attacks, unless they can mitigate the speed advantage with something like Sticky Webs and have access to hard hitting pokemon with base speed stats of 85+ like Bug type. Bulky Offensive teams can do well depending on their setup, for fighting for example AV pokes like Conkel/Gallade can take boosted SpA water attacks and start recovering back with Drain Punch, some calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Gallade in Rain: 172-204 (50.5 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO/252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Rain: 276-325 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 136-162 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO/252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 148-175 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not all Bulky Offensive teams have access to pokemon like these however so that's the problem. In order to do well in Monotype, every team needs to either carry something that can sponge common Swim Swift threats like a Ferrothorn or a Mega Venu, or be pure stall like Normal, or have access sticky web and fast hard hitting pokemon like Bug types. Unfortunately a fair number of types arent able to meet this criteria. With the big pool of pokemon the Swift Swim user can draw upon and even less types become viable.

The only reliable types that ive seen be able to fight back against Swift Swim at the higher ladders are

-Fighting
-Psychic
-Bug
-Poison
-Grass
-Fairy
-Steel
-Flying
-Normal (dependent on if the SS user runs CM/Sub Keldeo)
-Dark (dependent on if the SS user runs CM/Sub Keldeo)

The types I didnt list are the ones who face an uphill battle when vs Swift Swim teams, Ground probably having the worst time. SS Ludicolo is a hard counter to Ground teams.
I'm not saying its impossible, skill/luck can give you the win, but it's very hard.

Btw unrelated, I didnt know you laddered DoW, whats the name of the alt that you ladder with.
 
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*sigh*

Ok, I would like to take the comparison with Shaymin-S a little further. From what you’re saying, I’d guess you’ve rarely used it? Because I can tell you, with a 2x Stealth Rock weakness, weakness to four very common types (and one less common type), with the ever-present ice moves being 4x Super effective. With a BST of 600 (including defenses of 100 / 75 / 75), it’s barely got ubers-level stats. Its movepool, while allowing it to run a Special attacking set well, is barely the best ever, having to resort to HP ice or fire for coverage. And yet, it got a unanimous vote to ban.


Source:
http://www.smogon.com/tiers/ou/ban_history

Ok, Talonflame’s got a reasonably low Attack stat compared to Shaymin-S, but then a good scarf outspeeds and KOs Shaymin. For example, Scarf Terrakion can happily switch in on Shaymin-S’s Air Slash (which it will be spamming if facing, say, a fighting team), and OHKO with Stone Edge. Talonflame’s priority makes it close to, if not entirely, uncounterable by these teams, and the way Monotype works means that you can’t simply bring a counter (which you could for Shaymin, yet it still got banned).

The fact of the matter is that the bans are entirely comparable. I'm not saying they're the same; there was the issue of luck involved with Shaymin-S' 60% flinch rate, and they were in different surroundings, but saying that they're completely different (or even different at all to a large degree) seems silly.

Simply because I agree with both Hollywood's decision and how he handled the decision-making process doesn't make me a suck-up. I'm allowed to agree with someone (whether they're of a higher position than me or not) without simply doing it because of vested interest, and in fact I had a vested interest in Talonflame not being banned yet I argued for the ban the entire way through. I'd rather people didn't come to false conclusions about me then insult me, if they could simply think about things for a short while and realize how silly they're being.

As for a reply, feel free to reply to anything I say. Feel free to knock down any of my arguments. But at least provide reasoning as to why you think I'm wrong rather than just saying "You're wrong", insulting me and doing nothing else. If you have any actual reasoning, please feel free to bring it up.


Swift Swim. Does it affect stally teams or offensive more? I've rarely run bulkier teams high up the ladder, so I'm not an expert, but I think bringing it up would be necessary, we need to know exactly how it's affecting the metagame before decisions can be reached. For example, stally teams can more easily stall out five turns of rain, so the way of dealing with Swift Swim might involve banning Damp Rock + Swift Swim, whereas a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban might be needed for offensive teams due to them preferring the momentum gained from an opponent needing to use effectively a setup move. Thoughts?
First let me say that my suck up comment was out of line and unnecessary. I just happened to see your reply minutes before I went into work and responded on my iphone quickly and didn't realize I came off looking like that much of a prick, and that's not an excuse, I'm actually apologizing. I don't know you personally and even if I did it's still wrong, I'm sorry.

I still think one person deciding on the ban is unfair but honestly at this point, right or wrong, it just is what it is. So fine.

I'm not new to pokemon, but a relative noob to competitive battling and certainly a noob to Showdown. I guess I'm finding some of the bans and clauses overwhelming in certain tiers and game types. I mean, nothing I feel extra sensitive over, but just disagree with. I'm not one of those smogon haters, I find a dedicated community of seasoned players offering analysis on pokes and team strategies rather helpful especially being newer like myself. And as a 3ds player I find trying things out in battles on showdown is cool before I spend time breeding it. Everybody isn't always going to agree with a ban, and I guess I'm one who doesn't agree with talonflame being banned in monotype. Some types are harder to use than others and I think players should consider that while choosing their mono type or play another game type. But again what's done is done I just don't like it or agree with it.

As far as swift swim goes, I understand what it is and how it works with rain and I'm aware a mono water rain team wouldn't be hard to put together but I haven't had much experience using/facing rain and swift swim teams to give a valid opinion on it so I don't feel valid commenting on it.
 
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