Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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I already set the scenario. With the proper support, (sticky web users), a Mega-Heracross SHOULD be able to outspeed the non-scarfed Pokemon a Fire Monotype may carry. Also, Pokemon like Armaldo would be able to deal with the Scarfed Pokemon accordingly. Bug may not ways to destroy Fire Monotypes 100%, but they can counter them at least. Swift Swim is an entirely different scenario. Dragon Monotypes have no counters to a Life Orb Kingdra late game. Fire Monotypes could at least try to Solarbeam a Balanced Water team to death, but they have no chance against Swift Swim other than trying a Weather War.
Scarf fire Pokemon are the ones that are the main threat to bug though. There is no denying this fact as Scarf Victini and Darmantian are common among fire users in top ladders.
 
I believe SS is pretty unbalanced if used in conjunction with Drizzle. I spent a lot of time using my SS+Drizzle team on the ladder and in tournaments to help get me familiar with the power of SS+Drizzle. And what I found was that SS+Drizzle pretty much has a certain win against some types and playstyles. Below i've listed scenarios that I have seen in my experience against specific types:

Normal - When playing against normal monotypes, usually the offensive pressure by SS teams is handled fairly well assuming the normal team is stall-styled. If not, it usually gets trampled without the help of chansey/blissey/snorlax/porygon2.

Fight - CC spam and a lot of priority is pretty decent against SS+Drizzle from what i've seen as access to sash breloom really does leave a dent in the SS-user's team. Nothing appreciates a spore followed by a bullet seed.

Flying - Flying is really fun to face. Access to Ludicolo/Kingdra spamming ice beams would make you think you have the advantage but bulky Zapdos can help with that as well as the top threat for SS teams, Mega Charizard Y. Drought + Solarbeam is really tricky to handle for SS users so you must be careful in preserving Politoed and predicting the right time to 'freeze' Mega Charizard Y in absorbing sunlight when it is going for Solarbeam by activating Drizzle with switching in Politoed.

Poison - Not so popular but really fun to see. With use of Tentacruel, it can tank some water moves. Access to Toxicroak with Dry Skin is also helpful and uses Drizzle to its own advantage as well. Mega Venusaur especially is amazing in stopping water in general. Greninja is probably the most effective to help in this scenario.

Ground - Ah, poor ground. Only hope is to preserve Hippowdon and Gastrodon for Storm Drain and Sandstorm. Drizzle+SS has access to Ludicolo as well as Greninja whom can both utilize Giga Drain and Grass Knot respectively. Ground usually does not survive against SS+Drizzle.

Rock - Rock is not very common though even if it preserves Tyranitar for Sandstorm, it usually does not help and still gets destroyed by SS+Drizzle. Cradily with Storm Drain is essential to survive (even then, Ludicolo can Focus Blast), or else Rock has very little chance of surviving.

Bug - Access to Sticky Web helps combat the speed boosts by SS as well as sash Galvantula with Thunder/Giga Drain leaving dents on the SS team. Although no walls on bug can really enjoy taking countless rain boosted Waterfalls and and Hydro Pumps which in turn falls down to the offensive pressure by SS.

Ghost - Some ghost types have access to grass moves though the ones that utilize this well are not bulky (exception of Jellicent). Will-O-Wisp is tricky sometimes too. I found SS is pretty dominant over ghost usually.

Steel - Access to Klefki and Ferrothorn is awesome as paralysis and a strong bulky grass type to tank water hits is very helpful. Steel is pretty neutral usually (situational though)

Fire - No chance to survive unless Mega Charizard Y/Ninetales is on the team. Same condition as with Flying. Drought makes it tricky.

Water - Ludicolo is great and pretty much dominates unless Suicune or something is setup already.

Grass - Ice Beam is great although Ferrothorn/Mega Venusaur/Cradily is hard to handle unless Greninja can pull through.

Electric - Pretty situational. SS tends to overpower despite the type disadvantage

Psychic - Neutral i'd say.

Ice - Freeze Dry is cool but still not enough. The offensive pressure by SS is too much from my experience. Avalugg is probably the only thing to tank physical hits which is obviously not enough

Dragon - If the SS+Drizzle user has Kingdra, you can pretty much outrage spam and repeat. Only thing to lookout for is Goodra to avoid the gooey speed drop. Other than that, it is a clean win usually.

Dark - Tyranitar is nice but can't survive too many water moves so it won't outlast Politoed most of the time. Not many walls can endure rain boosted Waterfalls/Hydro Pumps so eventually the pressure is too much for Dark and therefore falls to SS. Need to be cautious for Sucker Punches though, particularly from Bisharp.

Fairy - Need to watch out for Mega Mawile/Klefki but other than that, it gets eventually overwhelmed by the SS pressure

This has just been my experience with every type i've fought with Drizzle+SS and I am interested to see what other people say. Go mess around with SS+Drizzle and post here your experiences, replays and thoughts. I've given my Drizzle+SS team that I created for anyone to use here

tl;dr Summary: HO teams/some balanced teams and Ground monotype teams are severely effected by Drizzle+SS and are really at a disadvantage. If the opponent is not running stall, SS+Drizzle tends to dominate. If the combination of these abilities were to be banned, it'd be much more fair as the user would have to sacrifice a turn/moveslot to set rain up as well as not being able to switch in Politoed and activate Drizzle whenever they need it. This also allows for opponents to run other weather moves to counter rain if they wanted. That being said, i'd support a Drizzle+SS ban.
Down with Swift Swim! Anyways, I totally agree with you there. From what I've seen, the Umbreon + Mandibuzz + Sableye + T-tar core can beat SS if played right. After Kabutops is burned, they can simply stall until Rain's over. Togekiss is also a bitch to Swift Swim.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 170-202 (45.4 - 54%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, the best SS users carry Keldeo for Normal, Steel and Dark monos, and Life Orb Sensory Gren for Venusaurs. After Sensory, Venusaur falls to Kingdra or Kabutops.

That's pretty much it.
 
Ignoring my first point about auto-wins, that's been argued enough, the main thing I was trying to stress is the strain it puts on team building, particularly to those teams weak or neutral to water. I feel that this is the more important point, as if one particular strategy is causing people to dedicate multiple team slots for mons they'd otherwise never run just to beat it, surely that's over centralizing and therefore ban worthy.
 
I feel like Gravity is a little broken in Monotype. With it, the already OP Flying type gets the ability to slaughter Balanced Electric and Steel. As you all know, Monotype only has one specific type per team so if you're weak to Gravity, you're weak to Gravity. There's no way around it. The Pokemon that I think is abusing it is Landorus-I. This Pokemon is already OP on its own, Life Orb Sheer Force Earth Power from a 115 base Special Attack will easily 1-2HKO anything that doesn't resist Earth Power (and if you aren't a Blissey / Chansey) and combined with Gravity, it'll hit through Flying immunities and balloons. Landorus-I also gets the coverage that it needs with Focus Blast, Psychic, Sludge Wave etc.
 
Well, im not a great battler, but my thoughs are simple:

SS+Drizzle isnt OP IMO, but i would prefer to see a ban to USING BOTH TOGETHER, banning anything more would end up giving a nerf to a thing that isnt comoletely OP in the first place. Just banning SS + Drizzle (using both in a team) would be a good solution to the "problem". That's my thought.

-RawrItsMe
 

feen

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I believe we should ban Drizzle+SS, because not only it wrecks HO teams, it can dent balanced teams as well. Ever saw a SD-boosted kabutops? 2 DDs can be game changing and that's what you get in a single turn. Also, I believe that simply banning damp rock will ruin some teams that uses Drizzle only, and if fire monos can abuse Heat Rock, why can't Water? Further more, banning Swift Swim only will create more hate than love, as there are some teams who manually rain dances. The best choice, I believe is to ban Drizzle+SS. Now the question rises, should Sand Stream+Sand Rush be banned as well? NO. Because it's only useful user is Excadrill (Better luck abusing a Sandslash) and it is very frail as there are quite many pokemons that can either counter or wall it.
Here are some calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 298-351 (89.2 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos in Rain: 231-274 (60.1 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Zapdos cannot 2HKO it anyways)

So therefore I conclude that. DRIZZLE+SS SO OP NERF PLS.
 
No Offense Kabutops has a very less chance if there are no hazards to survive with Swift Swim. Even if it gets a successful SD. It can get rekt by Mach Punch or Something
 

feen

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No Offense Kabutops has a very less chance if there are no hazards to survive with Swift Swim. Even if it gets a successful SD. It can get rekt by Mach Punch or Something
Bringing kabutops in front of a wall and SD-ing can pretty much change the game
And what about teams that dont run mach punch?
 
Sorry for the double post, but this doesn't really fit in with my previous post

As far as mono-Fairy teams go, one major weakness that stuck out to me is their physical frailty. While the type has Special walls aplenty, for physical walls its options are limited to Togetic, Granbull, Mega Mawile, and Carbink, all of whom have some significant drawback. Togetic is SR weak and relies on Eviolite, Granbull relies on Intimidate, Mega Mawile takes the mega slot and is better suited to an offensive role, and Carbink is offensively inept. This leaves Fairy teams very vulnerable to most physical sweepers.

EDIT: Forgot about normal Mawile, who is reliant on Intimidate
Old post I know but enjoy a Sucker Punch around the face xD
 
Kabutops doesn't need Swords Dance to be good. It's purpose is to hit everything with Rain Boosted Waterfalls. Not even Skarmory can survive 2 Waterfalls after Stealth Rock.
 

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Kabutops doesn't need Swords Dance to be good. It's purpose is to hit everything with Rain Boosted Waterfalls. Not even Skarmory can survive 2 Waterfalls after Stealth Rock.
That as well. Ban Drizzle+SS pls
 
Well, kabutops isnt the only SS pokemon out there, we have Ludicolo, Kingdra and other good pokes, but having SS doesnt make them OP at all, as yoy can see, Most teams have Priority, which kills many SS pokes.
Also, IMO drizzle+SS isnt OP, but i would see much more variety if you couldnt use BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

-RawrItsMe
 

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formally Death on Wings
Rock is essentially auto-win against fire. Ban Rock.
Fire is essentially auto win against bug too. Ban Fire.

I find this current logic flawed and imbalanced.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-712450 Psychic beating Steel. This took me three seconds to find. No, a type advantage is not an auto-win pls go away and stop saying this.
Edit: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-136220832 Bug beats fire. Ban people not knowing when something is or isn't broken.

Back on topic. I think we can all agree that Swift Swim with an 8-turn Drizzle is overpowered. I think the question that needs to be addressed is this: Do we go with Hollywood 's proposal to ban Swift Swim with Damp Rock? Do we go with what Nani Man has been suggesting and implement Aldaron's Proposal (ban Swift Swim with Drizzle)? Or do we just outright ban Swift Swim?

Personally I think Aldaron's Proposal is the best option as it's already been tried in Gen 5, where it worked. The extra turns given by having to use Rain Dance give, as I've explained earlier, the opponent the momentum needed to gain the advantage by setting up or KOing the switch-in. This would stop Swift Swim teams from being as broken, without completely destroying the tactic.

However, I think banning Swift Swim and Damp Rock would work as well. Are there any reasons why we should go with one over the other?
 

ryan

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The difference is that in BW, rain was permanent. This is a lot different, and based on my experiences playing with Swift Swim offense, it would be considerably worse without Damp Rock. The extra three turns of rain is just so huge and gives you so much more time to break down the opposing team or clean it up. With only five turns, you can still use the playstyle and succeed with it, but it's not nearly as powerful. Basically, banning only Damp Rock would nerf the playstyle without making it unviable. Damp Rock manual rain is still nearly as good as it with Damp Rock Politoed. It's just played differently as a more balanced offensive team with a couple bulkier setters and/or a suicide setter such as Stealth Rock + Rain Dance Omastar or Seismitoad.

Drizzle + Swift Swim is also generally fine so long as you don't get eight turns every time Politoed comes out. With only five turns, you have to spend a turn switching, which lowers it down to four turns after Politoed comes out unless it dies the same turn it comes out, in which case, you no longer have Politoed to come back and set rain again later. Being forced to switch out all the time is a tremendous momentum killer, which is a problem when you're playing with an offensive team.

I definitely believe that just banning Damp Rock would solve the problem without hurting a playstyle that can be balanced in this metagame. However, we do ban Damp Rock and I'm wrong, we can look into banning Drizzle or Swift Swim instead.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-712450 Psychic beating Steel. This took me three seconds to find. No, a type advantage is not an auto-win pls go away and stop saying this.
Edit: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-136220832 Bug beats fire. Ban people not knowing when something is or isn't broken.

Back on topic. I think we can all agree that Swift Swim with an 8-turn Drizzle is overpowered. I think the question that needs to be addressed is this: Do we go with Hollywood 's proposal to ban Swift Swim with Damp Rock? Do we go with what Nani Man has been suggesting and implement Aldaron's Proposal (ban Swift Swim with Drizzle)? Or do we just outright ban Swift Swim?

Personally I think Aldaron's Proposal is the best option as it's already been tried in Gen 5, where it worked. The extra turns given by having to use Rain Dance give, as I've explained earlier, the opponent the momentum needed to gain the advantage by setting up or KOing the switch-in. This would stop Swift Swim teams from being as broken, without completely destroying the tactic.

However, I think banning Swift Swim and Damp Rock would work as well. Are there any reasons why we should go with one over the other?
Lol if you want replays, you can ask Imp Firnen or check his replay section. It includes Ground beating SS Water.
A replay is not so hardcore evidence is it? You should be the one on topic.

As well as that, Psychic and Steel has no advantage of the other as neither is super-effective over the other. Unless you wish to imply that psychic stab is weaker on steel compared as to vice-versa? If that is the case, there have been several proven battles where Steel can beat water, and since thankfully all you need and require is mere 'replays', then I have plenty of that in store.

I too have seen grass beat fire before, and so I have seen bug, which I had mentioned earlier as very weak to fire, beat fire before. An argument showing just some people beating another with a 'less advantaged' type is not going to prove anything whatsoever.

Unless you wish to support that Rock and Ground CAN beat SS Water? Which has been done before, and with your current logic that 'replays solves everything' I have some replays to prove it.

And who is 'we' again? Not everyone is agreeing.


Your argument is in-adept and disappointing.
 
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-712450 Psychic beating Steel. This took me three seconds to find. No, a type advantage is not an auto-win pls go away and stop saying this.

Back on topic. I think we can all agree that Swift Swim with an 8-turn Drizzle is overpowered. I think the question that needs to be addressed is this: Do we go with Hollywood 's proposal to ban Swift Swim with Damp Rock? Do we go with what Nani Man has been suggesting and implement Aldaron's Proposal (ban Swift Swim with Drizzle)? Or do we just outright ban Swift Swim?
As well as that, if you had followed the thread properly, and if you did not edit my reply, I wrote essentially as auto-win. As to resemble the previous sentence given by Zarif.
 
The difference is that in BW, rain was permanent. This is a lot different, and based on my experiences playing with Swift Swim offense, it would be considerably worse without Damp Rock. The extra three turns of rain is just so huge and gives you so much more time to break down the opposing team or clean it up. With only five turns, you can still use the playstyle and succeed with it, but it's not nearly as powerful. Basically, banning only Damp Rock would nerf the playstyle without making it unviable. Damp Rock manual rain is still nearly as good as it with Damp Rock Politoed. It's just played differently as a more balanced offensive team with a couple bulkier setters and/or a suicide setter such as Stealth Rock + Rain Dance Omastar or Seismitoad.

Drizzle + Swift Swim is also generally fine so long as you don't get eight turns every time Politoed comes out. With only five turns, you have to spend a turn switching, which lowers it down to four turns after Politoed comes out unless it dies the same turn it comes out, in which case, you no longer have Politoed to come back and set rain again later. Being forced to switch out all the time is a tremendous momentum killer, which is a problem when you're playing with an offensive team.

I definitely believe that just banning Damp Rock would solve the problem without hurting a playstyle that can be balanced in this metagame. However, we do ban Damp Rock and I'm wrong, we can look into banning Drizzle or Swift Swim instead.
There's just something wrong about banning Damp Rock. Teams that are dedicated to manually setting up Rain Dance are nerfed for no reason, (even though they might not be good) there's no reason to nerf a strategy that isn't even good. Banning Drizzle+SS is a safer nerf in the sense that it nerfs nothing else, but the thing it is supposed to nerf. It's not like manual SS teams are that good, but there's just no reason to nerf it for no reason.
 

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If you'd read my post, I stated that I felt manual rain teams with Damp Rock are nearly as strong and deserve to be nerfed if we decide to take any action.
 
As well as that, Psychic and Steel has no advantage of the other as neither is super-effective over the other. Unless you wish to imply that psychic stab is weaker on steel compared as to vice-versa?
Steel resists Psychic, and Psychic doesn't resist Steel, so yes, Psychic STAB is weaker on steel than vice-versa. This is common knowledge that you apparently fail to have, which discredits all of your insults and makes you look like a fool. Also, most of your argument in your post is that type advantage is not auto-win, which is exactly what Articuno was saying, proving his point and generally being "in-adept and disappointing." You haven't even provided any of the Replays you claim to have.
 
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Steel resists Psychic, and Psychic doesn't resist Steel, so yes, Psychic STAB is weaker on steel than vice-versa. This is common knowledge that you apparently fail to have, which discredits all of your insults and makes you look like a fool. Also, most of your argument in your post is that type advantage is not auto-win, which is exactly what Articuno was saying, proving his point and generally being "in-adept and disappointing." You haven't even provided any of the Replays you claim to have.
He has not asked for the replays. I will give it to him if he asks for it.
I am also pretty sure he checked it himself on Pokemon Showdown.

and I am not against his point. Like I said, the previous statement of auto win, which I used, was to demonstrate the term used by Zarif, who claims that SS water was an auto win by ground.
 
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