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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
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Steel mono is still incredibly powerful without aigiand i wouldn't really call aigi a special sweeper and magnezone is a Powerful special steel type try that if youre looking for one and steel is generally at a disadvantage to fighting
Steel is indeed good even without Mega-Mawile and Aegislash. Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Scizor, Excadrill, Bisharp, Forretress, Aggron, Doublade and now with the new unbannings Genesect. You can make a very nice team with it. Genesect is not needed, but he is still essential in a steel mono because he is just very good. Banning Genesect will hurt steel, but I think it deserves to be banned
Scizor and Genesect are kind of mutually exclusive in a team since they both perform similiar roles and share a crippling 4x fire weakness that you definitely don't want to stack.
Even if Genesect gets banned, Scizor will work just fine.
Even if Genesect gets banned, Scizor will work just fine.
Before the unbans I actually had a steel team with banded scizor, all i had to do was slap on my genesect.
On another note I completely agree with DoW's idea of weighted points on the ladder, and honestly it isn't too hard to code at all.
I for one did not have an opinion when Deo-S/D was banned from OU, however they were banned nearly indefinitely doing their job. Not because of their combo with bisharp. I mentioned in my earlier post here
However, my most recent argument for them staying banned was:
- henceforth not efficient.
according to Smogon Ban History...
Now just add on taunting Defoggers. As you can see tho Deo-S(Deo-D as well) were banned for doing their job guaranteed. There has been arguments in that psychic has pokemon that outclass them like mew, and etc. therefore it isn't broken. However, mew outclassing deo-s/d is subjective, but even if that is the case. Is it efficient for the metagame? Psychic was the best type arguably before the unbans so it isn't efficient to buff it and it's problems aren't addressed with these addition of these Mons.
The thing about steel is, it has really powerful immunity/resistance cores. If I remember correctly (Which I probably don't, my memory is questionable, lol), one of the reasons Aegi was banned from steel was because people were having trouble handling the aegi/ferro/skarm/heatran core.Mendez said:
Also, regarding special attackers,
Dirpz mentioned a few. I can't be really sure about Jirachi since I've never used it as a special sweeper, but the others seem to work fine for me.Dirpz said:
Because I'm a steel user and stuff, I'd hate to admit it, but Genesect probably has to go. Now regarding, 'hurting steel', I'll admit that it DOES kinda hurt steel, but its far from making steel a mediocre type in any way. It still has viable options, and, I mean, I don't think it would be THAT hard to be creative and make a decent team that doesn't involve genesect, mega-mawile, or even Aegislash for that matter.SketchUp said:
Exactly. It will 'hurt' Steel in the sense that it won't be as overpowered as it is right now. Remember, Steel was one of the, if not the, top type before all the unbans and even after the Aegi ban. With KyuW and Skymin lurking, it won't be as powerful as before, but in no way will this make Steel a poor type. It has access to likely the most powerful mega, Mawile, and it also has some of the best priority in the game, such as Scizor's Bullet Punch, Mawile's Sucker Punch, Lucario's Espeed/Vaccuum Wave/Bullet Punch. Steel will need to add a little bit to check KyuW, like multiple priority users, but it can easily remain a top type, and saying 'Steel will be bad' or 'Now Steel is a mediocre type' is no argument against banning Gene.
Anyway, that's all for now, see ya later people.
Croven said:
Yeah this is exactly right in the case of Genesect for Steel and Bug, both will still be very usable types.
However for Ice it's a very different matter, as the arguments that say if Kyurem-White is banned then Ice will be hardly used do have some validity, however I'm still of the opinion that if a mon is broken, the first priority should be removing the broken mon before anything else. It's also worth considering as many people have said, Kyurem-White still doesn't solve the problems Ice used to face, it just adds sheer firepower such that people run Scarf Kyurem-White and 4 mons to sac when it wants to change move, and an avalugg to get rocks away.
On the subject of Shaymin-S, with the exception of one or two grass dedicated users, I've hardly seen this thing even now. I really don't know if it's suspect worthy simply because I've not seen any and had a chance to battle them to judge. I still think it's worth suspecting after the other two, if only to properly test it.
So the general consensus is that Kyurem-W is a broken pokemon limited by the fact that it is forced to run (with the exception of Mamoswine and maybe Weavile) sub-optimal team mates.
This is an interesting case that has never happened in other metagames so far... imagine if you were allowed to use something like Kyogre in OU but its 5 team mates had to be UU or lower: the result would pretty much be the same as Kyurem-W in monotype right now. The question now is whether something like this is acceptable or not within the monotype metagame.
A similar argument can be made about Shaymin-S, except it trades Kyurem-W's sheer power and bulk for speed and hax.
This is an interesting case that has never happened in other metagames so far... imagine if you were allowed to use something like Kyogre in OU but its 5 team mates had to be UU or lower: the result would pretty much be the same as Kyurem-W in monotype right now. The question now is whether something like this is acceptable or not within the monotype metagame.
A similar argument can be made about Shaymin-S, except it trades Kyurem-W's sheer power and bulk for speed and hax.
I strongly believe that it isn't acceptable to run a single overpowered mon with terrible support, as I wrote in my earlier post. It leads to a very different style of metagame which is simply based around two pokemon rather than twelve, moreover I would argue that the budgetmons metagame discovered that a single OP pokemon is capable of beating a team of weaker pokemon as likely they'll have no single pokemon that can beat it, and eventually it comes down to a whole series of 1v1s each of which it wins.
But as I wrote earlier, a battle between two pokemon rather than twelve simply isn't as fun, which is the whole point of pokemon.
I haven't seen THAT much either, but nonetheless, I've seen it in battle before. Its highly matchup based if you ask me. Matchup based stuff make OU mono less competitive imo. Talon was banned because it was too matchup and unhealthy for the OU monotype meta if I remember correctly. Well its probably the same for shaymin sky too.DM35 said:
Siiilver said:
Yeah this is very true and I agree with the points you bring up. However due to the fact many of the community haven't played against it either in OU last gen or in monotype this gen, I feel it's entitled to a fair test where people actually test with it and against it before making their decision, otherwise when we come to do the suspect test, assuming it's open to the community, people will just be voting more on reputation and what more experienced and well-known users say about it. If that's the case, they shouldn't be voting at all.
Lets be honest, Skymin's just taking a (rather unappreciated) leisure tour in the OU monotype meta. I'm pretty sure this thing's gonna get banned sooner or later, and stay where its supposed to be. I think everyone knows why its banned in OU, as well as OU monotype for the most part, and I think that's all that matters.DM35 said:
^Yeah, now about that, the only people who actually GET to use them are grass mono users, and I doubt any of them see it as OP, at least as of now. You see, its not very easy for a user of a potentially broken poke to admit that something is too OP. Plus, with grass kinda being one of the rather shunned types in OU mono, I can totally understand why they would not want shaymin sky banned.DM35 said:
I don't see a problem in that, as long as people are fully able to understand the others experienced players' point(s). I'll admit that if you're agreeing with a point just because someone better than you said so, you're an idiot. Its fine if you understand what they're trying to say, and why they say so, imo.DM35 said:
I wouldn't be too sure about that. Flying stallers like Mandibuzz and Skarmory can DEAL with it, (but are still vunerable to getting killed). Sableye makes a pretty good counter too.Anttyaz said:
My stance on it is, its POWERFUL, but not to the point where it needs to be banned. There are still several ways to tackle it, well at least for me.
Mandibuzz gets 2HKOed by HJK. Same goes to Skarmory. Yeah, Sableye can wall it, but Keldeo and Infernape kinda screw Dark over (Infernape gets burn immunity as well) Keep in mind that Medicham has 5 viable teammates to support its sweep
Edit: Stone Edge spam Terrakion can easily kill Mandibuzz, and Keldeo beats Skarmory. Also, if Skarmory's dead then it's pretty much over since Scarf Terrakion sweeps.
Hey guys, it has been around two weeks now since the new changes and after going through all the posts and most replays supplied, i've gathered some views and thoughts i'd like to share.
As we know, monotype has broken off from OU and its bans, and throughout this period, we decided to unban some pokemon previously banned in OU monotype, and the most notable ones being Genesect, Shaymin-sky for grass teams, and Kyurem-white for ice teams. These changes had the intention of diversifying the metagame much more than before, as grass/ice were lacking a lot of power and motivation to use them. However, throughout this testing period I have found (as well as many others) that it has indeed achieved what it was aimed to do, though perhaps at a cost. This 'cost' I speak of will be explained shortly, but first, I want to explain something below.
With the intention of diversifying the metagame, this could only be achieved with one option, which was to unban ubers that are not blatantly overpowered and could potentially fit in the monotype metagame. This sounds good when you think about it as more types roaming around means more diversity and competition, which is great! Although, this is where the 'cost' comes into play. Having more types viable enough to use can/has created a metagame where matchup (i.e what type you use/what type you are against) matters more. What this means exactly is, say a matchup of Flying vs Ice happens. Ice being much more buffed now has an even higher chance of winning against Flying, due to the unfavourable matchup and boost Ice has received. This is where you should ask "is trying to make more types balanced and viable a bad thing?". Types being equal means type matchup matters a whole lot more, and the beauty of monotype to me was winning despite having type disadvantages. And type matchup mattering is something we must avoid as much as possible. I mean, Talonflame was banned for its sheer force against bug/grass/fighting and relates to the nature of things being matchup based. Does that apply to Kyurem-white, Shaymin-Sky and Genesect? These are concerns I have and am not certain on where I stand yet. Previously our focus seemed to of been discussing the power those pokemon have, and now I want us to purely discuss those factors and ask yourselves the questions as well as the thoughts I've posed in this post.
Now, in regards with the discussion we have had so far, from what I've seen and experienced is that the only pokemon that proved to be blatantly overpowered and agreed upon by the majority was Genesect on Steel teams. The support Genesect has on Steel teams is phenomenal and its utility it gets with U-Turn+Download boost allows it to escape from unfavourable situations and leave heavy damage in the process. Whilst this applies to bug, the difference is that those potential switch ins on steel compared to bug are much more threatening due to the bulky teammates steel has, which include heatran/skarmory/ferrothorn absorbing hits with ease. Bug has much less synergy and is why Genesect is not as overpowered and does not warrant a ban at this point.
tl;dr Genesect is now type banned from Steel. Genesect(bug), Kyurem-white(ice) and Shaymin-sky(grass) shall remain until we reach a consensus on whether or not they promote type matchup mattering a whole lot more. If an outcome cannot be resolved, then we will end up manual suspect testing each one to get an exact measure on where people stand.
Again, all feedback is appreciated and thanks again everyone for your great posts as a community so far. I've enjoyed reading them all. #praiseMonotype #rof
As we know, monotype has broken off from OU and its bans, and throughout this period, we decided to unban some pokemon previously banned in OU monotype, and the most notable ones being Genesect, Shaymin-sky for grass teams, and Kyurem-white for ice teams. These changes had the intention of diversifying the metagame much more than before, as grass/ice were lacking a lot of power and motivation to use them. However, throughout this testing period I have found (as well as many others) that it has indeed achieved what it was aimed to do, though perhaps at a cost. This 'cost' I speak of will be explained shortly, but first, I want to explain something below.
With the intention of diversifying the metagame, this could only be achieved with one option, which was to unban ubers that are not blatantly overpowered and could potentially fit in the monotype metagame. This sounds good when you think about it as more types roaming around means more diversity and competition, which is great! Although, this is where the 'cost' comes into play. Having more types viable enough to use can/has created a metagame where matchup (i.e what type you use/what type you are against) matters more. What this means exactly is, say a matchup of Flying vs Ice happens. Ice being much more buffed now has an even higher chance of winning against Flying, due to the unfavourable matchup and boost Ice has received. This is where you should ask "is trying to make more types balanced and viable a bad thing?". Types being equal means type matchup matters a whole lot more, and the beauty of monotype to me was winning despite having type disadvantages. And type matchup mattering is something we must avoid as much as possible. I mean, Talonflame was banned for its sheer force against bug/grass/fighting and relates to the nature of things being matchup based. Does that apply to Kyurem-white, Shaymin-Sky and Genesect? These are concerns I have and am not certain on where I stand yet. Previously our focus seemed to of been discussing the power those pokemon have, and now I want us to purely discuss those factors and ask yourselves the questions as well as the thoughts I've posed in this post.
Now, in regards with the discussion we have had so far, from what I've seen and experienced is that the only pokemon that proved to be blatantly overpowered and agreed upon by the majority was Genesect on Steel teams. The support Genesect has on Steel teams is phenomenal and its utility it gets with U-Turn+Download boost allows it to escape from unfavourable situations and leave heavy damage in the process. Whilst this applies to bug, the difference is that those potential switch ins on steel compared to bug are much more threatening due to the bulky teammates steel has, which include heatran/skarmory/ferrothorn absorbing hits with ease. Bug has much less synergy and is why Genesect is not as overpowered and does not warrant a ban at this point.
tl;dr Genesect is now type banned from Steel. Genesect(bug), Kyurem-white(ice) and Shaymin-sky(grass) shall remain until we reach a consensus on whether or not they promote type matchup mattering a whole lot more. If an outcome cannot be resolved, then we will end up manual suspect testing each one to get an exact measure on where people stand.
Again, all feedback is appreciated and thanks again everyone for your great posts as a community so far. I've enjoyed reading them all. #praiseMonotype #rof
i tend to agree with the recent ban on genesect is well deserved as on steel its amazing coverage alongside its escape mechanisims made it such that one of the only surefire ways was hazards or twaving it early on as steel has no clerics making taking it on a helluva a lot easier
On another note i have faced many a ground team with sand force life orb physical landorus i which is a major threat atm with gravity as it can 1hko/2hko tons of shit under gravity any thoughts?
~Truedrew
On another note i have faced many a ground team with sand force life orb physical landorus i which is a major threat atm with gravity as it can 1hko/2hko tons of shit under gravity any thoughts?
~Truedrew
That's bout the same as the special variant with gravity except that gets a never missing focus blast and doesn't end up losing HP after every attack. I mean he is a wallbreaker anyway so its not that surprising that he was doing that.
Sorry Nani, but some types are meant to be bad. These "bad" types are Rock, Ghost, Grass, and Ice. Obviously, Arceus-Rock isn't going to be unbanned for Rock just because it has a sucky typing. The same should apply for Ghost, Grass and Ice. Skymin can dismantle slower teams by flinching it do death, while Kyurem-W can do the same by spamming Draco Meteor. As for the type matchup stuff, it's easy to see that a Grass team w/ Skymin can easily 6-0 a Fighting team just by sacking everything to bring Skymin in safely. The same goes for Bug / Grass as well. It's debatable that Skymin's even worse than Talonflame because it gets to hit Heatran (Earth Power) and dedicated Special Walls (Seed Flare). Skymin's moves have no recoil and they aren't affected by Rocky Helmet etc. Add Substitute and Pokemon like Mew, and Non Seismic-Toss Chansey are powerless against you. The only way to beat Skymin is scarfing Pokemon but keep in mind that the Venusaur / Ferrothorn core can take any Super Effective move against Skymin with ease. Not only that, I've seen Scarf Galvantula with HP Ice to get those surprise kills on Skymin. When Bug teams have to specifically run sketchy sets to beat Grass teams, something's wrong.
As for Kyurem-W the same thing's happening. Instead of an Ice Mono, it has become Kyurem-W and 5 death fodder-mons. Basically, every upper ladder Ice team is forced to run the same team in order to support Kyurem-W. A team would consist of these 6 mons: Kyurem-W (Sweeper), Avalugg / Cloyster (Spinner), Rotom / Walrein (Scizor Check, carries HP Fire), Frosslass (Fighting Check), Mamoswine (Standard for Fire / Steel teams), and something that has Rocks or an Anti Lead (Like Weavile). While this isn't the best support in the world, it's enough to scrape by. Another thing that's broken about Kyurem-W is its ability Turboblaze. As you all know, it ignores your opponent's ability. It may seem like nothing, but in Steel Monotypes, they're extremely important. There are now no safe switch ins to any of Kyurem-W's moves since Turboblaze cancels out Flash Fire, Sturdy etc. Kyurem-W is also blessed with an extremely viable movepool. And coming off of a base 170 Special Attack, nothing (Except Assault Vest Azumarill ofc) is safe.
Tbh, I really don't know why Genesect was unbanned other for testing purposes. Sporting a dual 120 attack it means that it can easily run mixed sets, and it gets the movepool to do so. 99 speed may be disappointing, but it isn't that important when you have webs up. Bug was never a bad type as well. It gets Mega Pinsir, a monster that's exclusive only to Bug teams and a ton of other "viable" options. These include Pokemon like Scizor, Volcarona, Forretress, Galvantula, Scolipede, and Shuckle. Yes, it may be hard to U-turn in and out because it has a weakness to Rocks, but a "good" Bug user can easily find times to Rapid Spin / Defog them away. Also, Bug doesn't need a defensive synergy because it's an offensive type overall. It's job is to hit as hard as possible while abusing webs.
I might've missed something so tell me if I did
I would say, that as someone who plays monotype a lot (well, on and off), I like it because it forces everyone to act like a "gym leader" - and I like it when everyone is forced to adhere to a specific code of ethics when building their team (I'd just as much like to see a mode where certain moves were just arbitrarily banned, or specific stat arrangements were required, or other weird rule ideas that nobody else would probably play).
So, to go along with the whole "gym leader" idea, I think never-used (and below) fully-evolved pokemon should be evaluated. Gym leaders often use shitty pokemon, and while we wonder this from time to time, I think it's a good aesthetic. Any thing we can do to encourage more diversity is a good thing, especially in types that have small varieties. Is there any way a "tiershift-like" ruleset could be implemented? I guess the idea is maybe way too much of an overhaul, but it feels like certain elements are crazy good (steel in particular), while others (like grass and ice) are largely stunted and at best, mediocre.
I think we can achieve what I'm describing in as minimalist a way as possible.
Let's forget about adding random base stats to NU pokemon.
Let's forget about adding some new moves to NU pokemon.
Let's forget about adding some new abilities to NU pokemon.
because these solutions would work, but they are way too invasive --
But what if we consider new alternative typings for NU pokemon?
For instance, let's look at a grass pokemon like... Serperior. On a grass team - he's just totally useless because of his limited move pool. Is there a typing we could give him that would not only enhance Grass as a whole, but some other type that needs tuning up? Dragon is a really good type, don't get me wrong, but it has next to no diversity. Could we experiment allowing Serperior to be Grass/Dragon when deployed in Monotype? First of all, it's easy for new players to adapt to as long as they're reminded to hover over the pokemon before doing moves against it they can always easily see their opponent's type (the main problem I find iwth tier shift or move changes or ability changes is it's not easy for new players to detect these changes through the UI or consider the ramifications of a pokemon they are facing having +10 base speed than usual).
While I'm suggesting this, allow me to suggest some ideas:
Carnivine: Grass -> Grass/Dark (the only other Grass/Dark pokemon are notably frail, while Carnivine is a little bit better in that regard; Cacturne/Shiftray is also super predictable, while Carnivine at least has a little bit more varied move pool, it would also give him Stab Crunch for added coverage).
Gogoat: Grass -> Grass/Ground (this helps Ground teams also be a lot more diverse, how many Grass/Ground types are there? Gogoat is a pretty unique pokemon in his own right and can function differently from Torterra, but he just lacks coverage to be considered useful).
Beartic: Ice -> Ice/Fighting (this really gives ice a desperate bit of coverage it lacks; it already has Superpower and Low Kick, so it'd to great with the added typing)
Cryognal: Ice -> Ice/Fairy (Okay, maybe this one is a bad idea - but it improves its ability to withstand Fighting attacks at an expense of being OHKO'd by bullet punch - I'd say it adds diversity to the Fairy and Ice camps however, so it's a big big win of an idea -- the only detractor is... Game Freak didn't give it Dazzling Gleam for some goddammned reason).
So what do you think? Could an idea like this at least be discussed? Or is it too radical of a suggestion to improve team makeup in monotypes? If we selected a few perfect pokemon to infuse new types with (probably only Beartic/Serperior are truly workable ideas from the above) it would potentially revitalize the scene.
So, to go along with the whole "gym leader" idea, I think never-used (and below) fully-evolved pokemon should be evaluated. Gym leaders often use shitty pokemon, and while we wonder this from time to time, I think it's a good aesthetic. Any thing we can do to encourage more diversity is a good thing, especially in types that have small varieties. Is there any way a "tiershift-like" ruleset could be implemented? I guess the idea is maybe way too much of an overhaul, but it feels like certain elements are crazy good (steel in particular), while others (like grass and ice) are largely stunted and at best, mediocre.
I think we can achieve what I'm describing in as minimalist a way as possible.
Let's forget about adding random base stats to NU pokemon.
Let's forget about adding some new moves to NU pokemon.
Let's forget about adding some new abilities to NU pokemon.
because these solutions would work, but they are way too invasive --
But what if we consider new alternative typings for NU pokemon?
For instance, let's look at a grass pokemon like... Serperior. On a grass team - he's just totally useless because of his limited move pool. Is there a typing we could give him that would not only enhance Grass as a whole, but some other type that needs tuning up? Dragon is a really good type, don't get me wrong, but it has next to no diversity. Could we experiment allowing Serperior to be Grass/Dragon when deployed in Monotype? First of all, it's easy for new players to adapt to as long as they're reminded to hover over the pokemon before doing moves against it they can always easily see their opponent's type (the main problem I find iwth tier shift or move changes or ability changes is it's not easy for new players to detect these changes through the UI or consider the ramifications of a pokemon they are facing having +10 base speed than usual).
While I'm suggesting this, allow me to suggest some ideas:
Carnivine: Grass -> Grass/Dark (the only other Grass/Dark pokemon are notably frail, while Carnivine is a little bit better in that regard; Cacturne/Shiftray is also super predictable, while Carnivine at least has a little bit more varied move pool, it would also give him Stab Crunch for added coverage).
Gogoat: Grass -> Grass/Ground (this helps Ground teams also be a lot more diverse, how many Grass/Ground types are there? Gogoat is a pretty unique pokemon in his own right and can function differently from Torterra, but he just lacks coverage to be considered useful).
Beartic: Ice -> Ice/Fighting (this really gives ice a desperate bit of coverage it lacks; it already has Superpower and Low Kick, so it'd to great with the added typing)
Cryognal: Ice -> Ice/Fairy (Okay, maybe this one is a bad idea - but it improves its ability to withstand Fighting attacks at an expense of being OHKO'd by bullet punch - I'd say it adds diversity to the Fairy and Ice camps however, so it's a big big win of an idea -- the only detractor is... Game Freak didn't give it Dazzling Gleam for some goddammned reason).
So what do you think? Could an idea like this at least be discussed? Or is it too radical of a suggestion to improve team makeup in monotypes? If we selected a few perfect pokemon to infuse new types with (probably only Beartic/Serperior are truly workable ideas from the above) it would potentially revitalize the scene.
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While I may have disagreed with Nani Man to begin with about the unbans, at the end of those two weeks I find myself agreeing that testing things was the right thing to do. It would be great if we could have a metagame where all types were balanced without any cost, and it was certainly the right thing to do to experiment with whether that would be possible.
That having been said, I have to agree with Anttyaz that these pokemon don't help the metagame. Anttya talks of adding Scarf HP ice galvantula to deal with skymin and earlier in this thread Scarf Flamethrower Zoroark was discussed, and while that's all horrific there isn't even an option for Kyu-W. Even if you wanted to run something gimmicky like that, you couldn't! The only options are the obvious revenge killers for flying, at which point it switches out to death fodder, in comes an ice sharder and you're losing again.
And yet I still think there's a way of satisfying both sides, of allowing all types to be decent while not having broken pokemon around. I don't know if it would be possible to implement, but if so my suggestion earlier for changing the ladder rating systems would allow all types to be usable (at least on the ladder), while also not restricting teambuilding by allowing broken pokemon into monotype.
If this isn't possible, however, adding broken pokemon isn't going to be the answer. We can try banning some pokemon, perhaps starting by looking at Mega Medicham, but I honestly don't think there are any other options to get 18 types all in balance at the same time. There's always going to be one or two, even at its best, which lag behind or are a little more powerful.
Alas, this would be great but tampering with game mechanics goes against smogon policy, sorry :/
Weren't monotype teams allowed to run a "wild card" (i.e. a differently-typed mon) in the past? Why not bring that back?
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