Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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all falls down

thanks ugly god
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
mega-aggron is the only reason rock is viable as a monotype, and to remove aggronite is to condemn rock to the worst of all types

mega-gyarados isn't even the mega of choice for flying teams (usually charizard), but it's not like it gains an awesome new attacking STAB, and along with megazard Y it is flying's best method of dealing with rotom-W

mega-zard X still looks like a flying mon, and flying teams will appreciate something that isn't weak to bolt-beam (unheard of for flying thus far). If anything I would insist zardX be allowed on dragon, as dragon teams really need something neutral to fairy (sorry dragalge) and immune to burns

My proposition is to allow select megas (zard-x, amphy, gyara, pinsir, and later on sceptile/audino/altaria, etc). to be playable starting in mega form, so that they can be used on teams that share typing only after mega-evolution

Flying has many ways to deal with rotom-wash, including Zapdos, Charizard-X, Charizard-Y, Dragonite, Articuno, etc..

Also to your proposition to allow megas to start in their mega form, that would go against game mechanics and the way mega evolutions were intended to work. For example, charizard x would not take the extra stealth rock damage.

this isnt hackmons :^(
 
It doesn't make sense to break Game Mechanics for no reason. Maybe if there was an actual argument,, like 'to make the meta better xD' I might listen to this, but this isn't even going to make this Metagame better at all. As All Falls Down stated, Charizard-Mega-X would take less Stealth Rock Damage overall, and he would be an even bigger threat. Again, I see no reason to break Game Mechanics if this Metagame doesn't get anything good out of it.
 
Welp I have waited a few days now. I didn't see any posts to respond to the statement I have been sticking too... Like I said if you can prove that despite being broken in OU and approach the reasons it was banned from that tier, while showing those reasons don't apply to monotype I would be all for pro-unban
just gonna organize my arguments.



  • INEFFICIENT
Efficiency
The metagame should be as efficient as possible in execution of gameplay and resolving outcomes.
Explanation:
Anything that does not directly help the metagame, hurts the metagame. Many elements of ingame Pokemon require little more than time, perseverance, or rote repetition to succeed. The metagame should place no value on these things. For serious competitive players, these elements are boring and distracting. They lessen the competitive challenge of the game and discourage expert players. The metagame should present the most direct and efficient mechanisms for players to play the game and determine winners. Any game element that does not directly contribute to improving the metagame, is inefficient and unnecessary. Such elements should be mitigated or removed, if possible.


Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D| Before the new unbans/bans psychic was arguably the best type in mono...
Mega Mawile | Fairy is already good. Some recent posts clarified that. It's a top-mid tier monotype
Mega Pinsir | Bug mono had a significant boosts in talonflame and I already explained the massive arsenal bug has available in an earlier post
Genesect | ^^^^ and Steel was still manageable without aegislash. I don't know why Inscribe has been putting it like it was the end of the world, it's just that you couldn't be generic and have a successful steel team. I switched to a more Offensively Focused Balance with my Steel and haven't looked back.
Showcase of The Team
Just a thought: It's already been shown grass vs water is nearly neutral and even if grass got the jump on water a lot is that a reason to excuse an auto-loss clause?

  • ABSTAIN
Aegislash - It was a very controversial ban.

  • Broken
Mega Mawile - This thing has a nasty Priority to take huge chunks out of its checks, has the highest attack in the game, had 0 counters in ou and now in mono its not broken because...? Fairy is a top-mid tier monotype and as mentioned before if a change to the metagame isn't efficient it's not healthy.

Skymin - Well I spent about 2 posts bashing the poor thing, long story short: Auto Loss clauses, lack of counters, RNG, Seed Flare ;-;, Outspeeds most of the scarves monos have availabe, and does the opposite of what it was added for, it promotes overcentralization. Oh and it got a 100% vote ban 51-0 2nd post


Kyu-W - Wow that 6-0 speaks for itself, but QueenofHax and other posts on page 25 speak on kyu-W. I have also posted about it before. In Summary| Ice has gotten even less diverse, it didn't promote diversity in the tier, It doesn't have any reliable counters, LO Bait sets can ruin your usual ways of dealing with it(see replay). Anttyaz post touches on it a bit

Genesect - I bashed this guy too. I don't really think much needs to be said about him at this point because no one has really been arguing for him recently(Atleast directly?) I made a good post for our fren genesect :]]]] 2nd post

Deoxys-D/Deoxy-S - I forget who, but someone mentioned it was banned because of its combination with bisharp. Well I did some research.

February 27, 2013
After Round 10 of suspect testing, Deoxys-D was banned.
After many users clamoring to get it suspected for a few rounds, the council finally decided to suspect Deoxys-D. It was suspected for the same reason Deoxys-S was: the ability to set up entry hazards reliably. While Deoxys-D had none of that Speed and much worse offenses, it was a still a terror to behold. Boasting insane defensive stats, above-average Speed, and an expansive movepool, Deoxys-D could rarely be stopped from setting up hazards. With Taunt, you couldn't set up on it. Going back to its expansive movepool, another reason Deoxys-D was so threatening was because of its versatility. Between Magic Coat, Skill Swap, Psycho Boost, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Hidden Power Fire, Superpower, Seismic Toss, Night Shade, Thunder Wave, Toxic, and Recover, you had almost no idea what Deoxys-D was running. It also ran many different items, including Leftovers, Mental Herb, Rocky Helmet, and Tanga Berry. While it of course couldn't run all of these options at once, it still meant you had no idea what Deoxys-D was running when you came up against it. This versatility pushed Deoxys-D just over the edge, getting it banned.
- OU Ban History

Now ofc that is Gen V but the reasons still apply

As for Deoxys-S

December 8, 2011
After the switch to a council system, the OU Council comprised of Earthworm, JabbaTheGriffin, and Aldaron decided that Deoxys-S was unhealthy for OU and removed it from the tier.
Round 5 had ended, but the policymakers of Smogon were not happy. They found that the slates every round were becoming increasingly more stupid and Excadrill being banned after being not banned for four rounds was a wake-up call. The suspect system was failing, at least in the eyes of the powers that be, so a council composed of three of the greatest policy makers on Smogon, Earthworm, JabbaTheGriffin, and Aldaron was formed. They decided that Deoxys-S was unhealthy for the OU metagame after heated discussion and unanimously voted to oust it. Deoxys-S could do its job with ease, which was getting guaranteed Stealth Rock and layer of Spikes at the very least or getting up dual screens right off the bat and setting them up constantly throughout the match thanks to its blazing Speed, usually in the lead position. Every Rapid Spinner was KOed with the right move, such as Starmie with Thunderbolt, Tentacruel with Psycho Boost, and Forretress with Hidden Power Fire. Deoxys-S also had the ability to threaten Tyranitar, a Pokemon that can hold it to just Stealth Rock, with Superpower, given that Tyranitar did not hold a Chople Berry. Due to its blazing Speed and massive neutral and super effective coverage, it was among the greatest revenge killers in the game, a testament to its effectiveness because its offenses are inferior to most every other offensive Pokemon in OU. Thundurus and Excadrill, both major threats to Deoxys-S, had been banned in Round 5, and Deoxys-S followed suit with one of the most controversy-filled ban debates in Smogon history. At last, it seemed as though the metagame had settled down, but this was only for now, with many more changes still yet to come.

Statistics
  • Deoxys-S: 5 Ban, 0 Do Not Ban, 0 Abstain—100% Ban, banned
Similar to deo-D the reasons it was banned still applies to this time. While I personally never had a problem I'm still gonna play Devil's Advocate for this one.

For all of these pokes listed under broken if you would please explain to me how their reasoning of getting banned in OU doesn't apply to monotype as I've been requesting in nearly all my recent posts that would be great. The only hint of a rebuttal I have gotten was, "OU is not mono" to which I responded they could still be compared because unlike most other OMs. Monotype keeps the mechanics of OU but instead of adjusting mechanics it restricts teambuilding. They are at the very least Comparable
 

SamuelTheBest

Banned deucer.
Ice is a decent type, and it kind of relies on Avalugg to remove Stealth Rock, since Cryogonal sucks,, but yeah, that set sucks really bad since it can't support its team in any way, so it's pretty much a waste of an Avalugg.

Mirror coat can be changed with rapid spin,but,a special mon destroy avalugg and avalugg can't kill him prob

P.s. I'm new on smogon(not on showdown,e.e)
I don't know how to do some command
 

Grim

The Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Ice is a decent type, and it kind of relies on Avalugg to remove Stealth Rock, since Cryogonal sucks,, but yeah, that set sucks really bad since it can't support its team in any way, so it's pretty much a waste of an Avalugg.
It's a good offensive type yeah, but defensively it's the worst. Cryogonal is decent imo. It has good special defense and it's quite fast.
 
Welp I have waited a few days now. I didn't see any posts to respond to the statement I have been sticking too... Like I said if you can prove that despite being broken in OU and approach the reasons it was banned from that tier, while showing those reasons don't apply to monotype I would be all for pro-unban
just gonna organize my arguments.



  • INEFFICIENT



Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D| Before the new unbans/bans psychic was arguably the best type in mono...
Mega Mawile | Fairy is already good. Some recent posts clarified that. It's a top-mid tier monotype
Mega Pinsir | Bug mono had a significant boosts in talonflame and I already explained the massive arsenal bug has available in an earlier post
Genesect | ^^^^ and Steel was still manageable without aegislash. I don't know why Inscribe has been putting it like it was the end of the world, it's just that you couldn't be generic and have a successful steel team. I switched to a more Offensively Focused Balance with my Steel and haven't looked back.
Showcase of The Team
Just a thought: It's already been shown grass vs water is nearly neutral and even if grass got the jump on water a lot is that a reason to excuse an auto-loss clause?

  • ABSTAIN
Aegislash - It was a very controversial ban.

  • Broken
Mega Mawile - This thing has a nasty Priority to take huge chunks out of its checks, has the highest attack in the game, had 0 counters in ou and now in mono its not broken because...? Fairy is a top-mid tier monotype and as mentioned before if a change to the metagame isn't efficient it's not healthy.

Skymin - Well I spent about 2 posts bashing the poor thing, long story short: Auto Loss clauses, lack of counters, RNG, Seed Flare ;-;, Outspeeds most of the scarves monos have availabe, and does the opposite of what it was added for, it promotes overcentralization. Oh and it got a 100% vote ban 51-0 2nd post


Kyu-W - Wow that 6-0 speaks for itself, but QueenofHax and other posts on page 25 speak on kyu-W. I have also posted about it before. In Summary| Ice has gotten even less diverse, it didn't promote diversity in the tier, It doesn't have any reliable counters, LO Bait sets can ruin your usual ways of dealing with it(see replay). Anttyaz post touches on it a bit

Genesect - I bashed this guy too. I don't really think much needs to be said about him at this point because no one has really been arguing for him recently(Atleast directly?) I made a good post for our fren genesect :]]]] 2nd post

Deoxys-D/Deoxy-S - I forget who, but someone mentioned it was banned because of its combination with bisharp. Well I did some research.



- OU Ban History

Now ofc that is Gen V but the reasons still apply

As for Deoxys-S


Similar to deo-D the reasons it was banned still applies to this time. While I personally never had a problem I'm still gonna play Devil's Advocate for this one.

For all of these pokes listed under broken if you would please explain to me how their reasoning of getting banned in OU doesn't apply to monotype as I've been requesting in nearly all my recent posts that would be great. The only hint of a rebuttal I have gotten was, "OU is not mono" to which I responded they could still be compared because unlike most other OMs. Monotype keeps the mechanics of OU but instead of adjusting mechanics it restricts teambuilding. They are at the very least Comparable

M-Maw for Fairy and Skymin aren't broken in my opinion...
But i won't say i've already said, just see last cases i've said for Shymin.
 
Hey guys. I need help. How to deal with Mega Medicham (both Monos) using a Ground Mono consisting of: Hippowdon, (Mega) Garchomp, Quagsire, Mamoswine, (Scarf) Excadrill and Landorus without sacrificing either one of them (because they're all important)? It'll be great if someone could help me because I don't know how to counter Mega Medicham because it isn't even an OP Pokemon right? It isn't even banned which means I people beat it but I can't with my Ground Mono someone please help!

On a more serious note, don't you guys think Mega Medicham is OP? It gets Ice Punch for Dragon/Grass/Flying, Drain Punch for Normal/Rock/Ice/Steel, and Fire Punch for Steel/Grass/Bug. Plus, with Huge Power, it hits an Attack stat of 598 which is equivalent to a Pokemon with base 222 and Adamant nature which means that you simply can't defeat it without sacrificing one Pokemon unless you are scarfed using a Flying-type attack which has to be certainly enough to OHKO.
 
Hey guys. I need help. How to deal with Mega Medicham (both Monos) using a Ground Mono consisting of: Hippowdon, (Mega) Garchomp, Quagsire, Mamoswine, (Scarf) Excadrill and Landorus without sacrificing either one of them (because they're all important)? It'll be great if someone could help me because I don't know how to counter Mega Medicham because it isn't even an OP Pokemon right? It isn't even banned which means I people beat it but I can't with my Ground Mono someone please help!

On a more serious note, don't you guys think Mega Medicham is OP? It gets Ice Punch for Dragon/Grass/Flying, Drain Punch for Normal/Rock/Ice/Steel, and Fire Punch for Steel/Grass/Bug. Plus, with Huge Power, it hits an Attack stat of 598 which is equivalent to a Pokemon with base 222 and Adamant nature which means that you simply can't defeat it without sacrificing one Pokemon unless you are scarfed using a Flying-type attack which has to be certainly enough to OHKO.
Personally I would agree, but to seriously answer your question make sure you have rocks up, switch to physically defensive Hippowdon and hope they run Hi Jump Kick. Then attempt to take one or one Ice Punch and hit it with an EQ, however even if you go down sand will get some chip damage on it. The point of all this is so an adamant LO Rush Drill (Ground Mono Drill doesn't really want to be scarfed and Rush Drill pairs better with Hippo) can KO in one hit. If worse comes to worse you're Mamoswine has Ice Shard and there's a chance that MegaCham won't (4mss with Fake Out, High Jump Kick/Drain Punch, Fire Punch and Ice Punch leaves significantly less space for Bullet Punch) and try and grab a kill.

Outside of all that, I can't see why we slammed the meta with unbans. All they've proven thus far is that Ice is centralized with Kyurem-White, Genesect is still broken and Shaymin-Sky is haxxy and annoying to face. I motion that we reban all three, begin discussing the rest of the unbans in a meta with out these three mucking up the works and then discuss Mega-Medicham.
 
Hey guys. I need help. How to deal with Mega Medicham (both Monos) using a Ground Mono consisting of: Hippowdon, (Mega) Garchomp, Quagsire, Mamoswine, (Scarf) Excadrill and Landorus without sacrificing either one of them (because they're all important)? It'll be great if someone could help me because I don't know how to counter Mega Medicham because it isn't even an OP Pokemon right? It isn't even banned which means I people beat it but I can't with my Ground Mono someone please help!

On a more serious note, don't you guys think Mega Medicham is OP? It gets Ice Punch for Dragon/Grass/Flying, Drain Punch for Normal/Rock/Ice/Steel, and Fire Punch for Steel/Grass/Bug. Plus, with Huge Power, it hits an Attack stat of 598 which is equivalent to a Pokemon with base 222 and Adamant nature which means that you simply can't defeat it without sacrificing one Pokemon unless you are scarfed using a Flying-type attack which has to be certainly enough to OHKO.

Mega Medi is a pain in most cases, and you aren't gonna be finding much in the way of reliably stopping it. Since your ground team takes the generic route that's been common as of late (not bashing, just saying its the popular model for a lot of people lately) you cant afford to switch Hippo for Gliscor due to using Sand Offense. Mega Medi will almost always guarantee a kill, as you cant reliably stop it even with Hippowdon (2hko by Hi jump Kick) so atm your best bet in your teams current model is revenge killing it which sucks, but its what you have to do. best I could say is if they run Hi-Jump (the only set hippo cant wall really) is slot protect on him, but that's already losing a valuable coverage slot as is but it may be what you have to do.
 

Nani Man

__what__ does nani mean
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
OU Monotype ladder is now removed (old rankings can still be found here) and replaced with a brand new ladder, now known as Monotype. Hype up :D


Also, it has been a bit over a week since the new additions and the time of testing them into Monotype is coming to an end in ~6 days. However, it seems people have mixed feelings so the way things are looking is we are going to host a manual suspect test for Genesect/Kyurem-White/Shaymin-Sky possibly in that order. Updates will be coming towards the end of the week so stay tuned and keep the posts, replays and thoughts coming.
 
OU Monotype ladder is now removed (old rankings can still be found here) and replaced with a brand new ladder, now known as Monotype. Hype up :D


Also, it has been a bit over a week since the new additions and the time of testing them into Monotype is coming to an end in ~6 days. However, it seems people have mixed feelings so the way things are looking is we are going to host a manual suspect test for Genesect/Kyurem-White/Shaymin-Sky possibly in that order. Updates will be coming towards the end of the week so stay tuned and keep the posts, replays and thoughts coming.
Just curious, are we getting actual suspect tests like OU or homemade ones. (Homemade's bad unless if they're cookies or something.)
 

Croven

certified genius
is a defending SPL Champion
Just curious, are we getting actual suspect tests like OU or homemade ones. (Homemade's bad unless if they're cookies or something.)
I second the homemade remark. Homemade cookies >> everything.

To not make this a shit post, can I clarify one thing about the suspect test? Will it be us laddering like normal, then having a vote, or are Nani, Chandy, Shaymin, and Hollywood going to decide after looking through this thread and the ladder itself?
 
Agree with croven, I feel that the monotypers would appreciate being part of the decision process.

That said, I have a feeling all 3 suspects will be banned because none of them really addressed the issues that their teams faced before

Kyu-w is the worst offender as it doesn't help ice vs scizor or fighting types or terrakion, and ice teams have boiled down to "kyu-w and 5 fodder mons"
 
I agree with Arash while kyu-w does make ice teams more viable it is strictly through brute force and does not solve the problem that it was borught down to solve
I.e steel rolling through it, it only serves as a complete wall breaking nuke that destroys the puny walls of mono (will edit with calcs later when i have time)
 
Yeah, since Monotype has a lot of active members I'd say it'd be best if it was a community thing. Also, how would suspect testing go if its' homemade? Would we make a fresh alt and ladder with that to get a certain ELO or something?
 
I agree with Arash while kyu-w does make ice teams more viable it is strictly through brute force and does not solve the problem that it was borught down to solve
I.e steel rolling through it, it only serves as a complete wall breaking nuke that destroys the puny walls of mono (will edit with calcs later when i have time)
Watch the replay on the last page, that issue was definitely solved. Currently the only true bad match-ups Ice has are fighting, bug and fairy.
The issue with Kyu-W is that it makes many match-ups over at team preview, promoting overcentralization.
 
Watch the replay on the last page, that issue was definitely solved. Currently the only true bad match-ups Ice has are fighting, bug and fairy.
The issue with Kyu-W is that it makes many match-ups over at team preview, promoting overcentralization.
After viewing those replays my opinion stays strong as none one of those steel teams were able to keep there rocks on the field or capitalize on the many switches into lug also you narrowly avoided mamoswine crippling in one game that seemed very defining,
however your opinion may branch from your skillful play with ice, but to each their own

And on another note i am in favor of a Community suspect test because i think getting the monotype community involved would be exciting and maybe even draw new people to the community. And also let the people be heard
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok, I've now spent over a week thinking almost entirely on this topic, and promising a big post at some point. So here it is I guess.

Firstly, how to tell if something is broken. This seems to be a topic where people have disagreed, yet I can't see any resolution so far. I would like to bring up this thread, which I have posted before and probably will again. Please, everyone, read it because it's the basis of much of the argument around here.

Next, as Nani Man points out things can be broken in OU yet not in an OU-like metagame, due to Monotype playing out differently. As Crazy Horse points out, nobody has yet explained exactly what the difference is.

Offensive pokemon need support to do well (this will be brought up later, but bear with me). For example, Deoxys-D was banned in OU because it was simply too good at supporting, making the DeoSharp combination very strong. Bisharp was far stronger with Deoxys than without, and Bisharp wasn't suspected because Thundurus showed it could use Deoxys' support in exactly the same way, and arguabliy better. Many offensive teams used Deoxys-D because of the support, and those pokemon simply wouldn't have access to such support in monotype with the exception of psychic pokemon, where generally the support is far less useful.

Another difference is that it is, inevitably, impossible to counter all the threats with every monotype, and at some point checks become the best option. For example, mew is annihilated by Mega Mawile:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 399-471 (98.7 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (Don't forget MMaw often carries Knock off, and can of course run sub rather than SD).
However, if they both come in at the same time or mew comes in on a sucker punch/fire fang, mew wins as it can will-o-wisp, then roost off any damage and laugh at Mawile, assuming there's then a phazer somewhere if it then decides to boost anyway.
Note I'm not saying that MMaw isn't broken (at least not yet), but this is a far more acceptable argument for MMaw not being broken vs. psychic teams, even though it relies on the psychic type predicting maw's switch-in because, while it may be difficult to predict, a good player will beat a bad player which is the point of a competitive metagame.

I would like to at this point dispell a large misconception. Being able to revenge kill something =/= Being able to counter it. Similarly, being able to revenge kill something =/= it being healthy for the metagame. While something doesn't need to be counterable to be fine for the metagame, a check at least is good unless you have very good reasoning why it should be healthy. (For example ditto isn't really checkable, but neither is it broken.) Again, look at the "Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame" rather than simply saying "it can be checked" or "it can't be countered".

There are two more questions to ask about the metagame, I think. While Smogon's tiers are generally very balanced, with each pokemon having roughly the same usefulness within each tier, Nintendo's official formats seem often to be, while still competitive, less balanced. I once asked a VGC player what the tier was about, and the answer was "Choose a mega, then support it." The first question I would ask would be, do we want a Smogon-like metagame, where all pokemon are relatively easily counterable and there's a lot of balance, or do we want to allow some types (notably ice at this point) to become far more a case of "Choose an Uber, then support it."?

The second question I would ask would be, what is more important, all types being at a competitive level, or all types being able to beat any other type if used well? In part 3 I may have an answer to this question, but it's still one that needs to be considered by all.

Ok, I think that's it for Part 1.

Ok, there's going to be all the usuals here, then a few things to think about later. I'll start with the easy ones.

Deoxys-D: This thing was banned for its combination with a defiant user and ghost-type. It's not dual-typed so it's weak to all the things the team's weak to, and there's plenty of good defensive mons for psychic to choose from like slowbro and AV meloetta. The offensive psychic pokemon can use its hazard support, but this thing certainly doesn't seem to make the metagame unballanced, and we should only ban where there is a definite reason to in order to make the metagame more diverse. Don't ban.

Deoxys-S:
Similarly to Deoxys-D, this thing was largely banned for hazard support, and while it can run a good offensive set or run dual screens, it simply doesn't seem that OP when considering it's weak to the same things as the rest of its team, and so doesn't provide particularly much defensive support, while there are already dual screeners and powerful attackers such as scarf gardevoir. Don't ban.

Genesect:
Of the three big unbans, this was perhaps the one people dreaded least. A week later, it's the one I see most concensus on. Almost everyone I have spoken to about this wants it banned, for a number of reasons. Firstly, it's being given to teams that are already strong. Secondly, it creates a huge amount of momentum, and a large number of 50/50s where if the opposing player gets it wrong they lose a pokemon, but if they get it right they deal 30% to a switch-in. And finally, it's powerful enough to be a massive threat in itself. My first piece of evidence for this is that I had to change my Landorus-i set to having 10 defense IVs, otherwise I pracitcally auto-lost to this thing as soon as it got a free switch-in, with ice beam KOing at least one of my pokemon whatever I did. My second piece of evidence would be Auburn's post here:
Alright I Have all the evidence i need for Genesect. On Both Bug and Steel it proved to be a problem for Psychic, Dark, Flying and giving other typings problems. but those 3 i found to be the biggest for, i am not a steel user, and only use bug once in awhile so my biased is outta the picture, and idec for psychic, dark. with Flying there is always things you can find to check things anyways, but judging from when i was testing Genesect i will give my vote on it to be banned and i have replays for proof on it

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158176821 Bug vs Flying

Genesect and Mawile http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158506163

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158648032 Steel vs Flying

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158796403 Genesect vs Dark

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158799072 Steel Genesect/Mawile vs Psychic

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158801273 Steel Genesect vs Psychic

These are all the Replays i saved as of today this morning and yesterday i do believe
I do not see that any more evidence of it being broken is needed: For example, in Auburn’s game against All Falls Down, I would argue that AFD was playing better and were genesect not there would also have won, which is certainly what should happen in a competitive game: The better player winning despite steel having a mild type advantage. Ban.

Aegislash:
I don't think this thing is at all broken on ghost teams. On steel teams it was a horror, as between Heatran, Skarmory and Aegislash they were immune to each of the types SE to steel. Ghost, however, needed a versatile pokemon that was strong but counterable, and this is exactly what Aegislash seems to be on ghost teams. With a defensive set stally ghost becomes just about viable, and with an offensive set offensive ghost becomes viable. This was a perfect example of how Monotype breaking off from OU was great for the meta, Praise Nani and Praise Monotyke! Don't ban.

Kyurem-White: I will admit that when I first saw this was being unleashed onto the Monotype metagame, I didn't know what was going on. It's extremely powerful, and incomparable to Kyu-B due to its far better movepool. While Ice-types don't provide the best support, they can provide enough through Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, and a little walling / pivoting. The problem is that the way to beat it isn't to attack it, but to take out its support, and a small slip in this can be more than enough to lead to a sweep, as this replay shows. Sure, BrendanLee should have had a revenge killer, but even if he had used, say, scarf thundurus-t with focus blast, Jak could simply have sacked something to focus miss, sent in an ice shard user, double switched to Kyu-W as the revenge killer switches out, and repeated the process. It's not that it's unbeatable; if BrendanLess predicted correctly in that situation then he might win, but focus blast is barely accurate despite Thundurus-t being one of flying's better revenge killers for the monster, and it stops being a game where teams are involved and starts being a battle between two pokemon with a little support at the start.
We also need to make sure that in trying to make one team stronger, we don't make the metagame unbalanced by causing other types to fall. Let's not forget that the first step we took in becoming an independant tier was banning talonflame for making matchups against grass, bug and fighting too one-sided. I can't help but think of matchups Kyu-W causes to be one-sided here, grass once again being on the list but so too are poison, flying, and ground (252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 243-286 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)

In the middle of all the Kyu-W debate let's not forget why it was considered in the first place. Ice has problems because it's generally a weak type, sure, but the main problem was the lack of ways in which it could deal with Mega Scizor. And what do you know? It still can't. Kyurem-White may be reasonably good against Steel teams, but if Mega Scizor gets to +2 and there's Stealth Rock up, it sweeps same as it ever did. The main problem ice types had is still the main problem ice types have, and their only way to win against mega scizor that they didn't have before is to sweep before steel gets the chance. Once again it's a battle of two pokemon with some teams on the sides, rather than a tactical game featuring 12 independant pokemon, where support pokemon may be considered just as important as sweepers.
And as was eventually decided in this thread I keep spamming a link to, the true purpose of the metagame is to be fun. While Kyurem-White makes ice usable, it makes the game far more matchup-based, far more centered around a single pokemon, less competitive and in my opinion, well... less fun. I'm not gonna use bold when I write Ban because I want people to have read this. It's important to me and important, I think, to the future of the metagame.

Skymin: While this pokemon, given good support, is overpowered, it isn't as powerful as Kyurem-W nor as unpredictable as Genesect. I'm not exactly a good grass player but I played around with it a little, and it's very powerful. It gets plenty of entry hazards from ferro, defog from shiftry, healing wish or baton passed boosts from celebi, and of course Mega Venusaur walls many of the things grass dislikes. It causes fighting, water, ground, rock, bug, and opposing grass not using skymin to struggle but at the same time, it doesn't help all that much against the things grass has always struggled with: ice, steel, flying, fire. It also forces the grass player to make a far more supportive team, as a normal grass team would generally be a lot more bulky and less capable of keeping up offensive pressure, while at the same time Skymin doesn't add any resistances of note in the same way that Mega Venu can tank ice and fire moves, or ferrothorn can take flying, poison or bug moves and shrug them off.
So overall, it doesn't actually seem too powerful. It is, however, bad for the metagame as it requires grass teams to change dramatically if it's to be used well, causing more of this "One pokemon with a team supporting it" mentality rather than a core or whole team working well together. It also causes the games to be far more matchup-based, which is uncompetitive and less fun. So while it wouldn't be gamebreaking if it weren't banned, I'd still prefer a ban.

Mawilite: Ok this is going to look like a cop-out given the essays I've given about other mons, but honestly I haven't seen too much of Mega Mawile. My games against steel have generally been me vs. genesect, though I guess I've had to keep up the pressure on mawile by keeping Zard-X or Landorus in, or having skarmory healthy in the back. Fairy teams, on the other hand, seem to have been scared off by the large number of steel teams infesting the ladder as I've barely seen any since the unbans. At the same time I guess most of my thinking has been on other, more important mons to the metagame. Honestly though I don't know if this should be banned or remain unbanned, but I trust Nani's decision on the matter either way.

Now for some interesting things.

Talonflame: People have brought forwards Talonflame, saying that if we're unbanning Kyu-W, Skymin and Genesect then Talonflame on fire should be unbanned as well. However I think this highlights the problems with the Skymin, Kyu-W and Genesect unbans in that Talonflame is no less broken than it was when we banned it, and the fact it's comparable to these new pokemon simply means they're broken as well. The ability to make games against certain teams very close to a certain win is uncompetitive, and so it is far better to Ban these threats.

Zekrom: Someone brought this up for discussion, saying Electric was a weak typing. However, electric is a decent enough typing, Zekrom is OP, and allowing this into the metagame wouldn't particularly patch up Electric's current weaknesses, rather giving it more power. Electric has got physical attackers, Electric has got ways of dealing with Mega Venusaur, and the metagame would suffer if this thing were unleashed upon it. Keep banned.

Mega Medicham:
I seem to remember someone arguing that Kyurem-W should remain unbanned for ice because ice struggles with certain types loads. Well, let's take the problem to its source. I'm not saying this thing should be banned, but we should have a look at it and properly discuss it. It's very strong vs. ice, and there's this:
Hey guys. I need help. How to deal with Mega Medicham (both Monos) using a Ground Mono consisting of: Hippowdon, (Mega) Garchomp, Quagsire, Mamoswine, (Scarf) Excadrill and Landorus without sacrificing either one of them (because they're all important)? It'll be great if someone could help me because I don't know how to counter Mega Medicham because it isn't even an OP Pokemon right? It isn't even banned which means I people beat it but I can't with my Ground Mono someone please help!

On a more serious note, don't you guys think Mega Medicham is OP? It gets Ice Punch for Dragon/Grass/Flying, Drain Punch for Normal/Rock/Ice/Steel, and Fire Punch for Steel/Grass/Bug. Plus, with Huge Power, it hits an Attack stat of 598 which is equivalent to a Pokemon with base 222 and Adamant nature which means that you simply can't defeat it without sacrificing one Pokemon unless you are scarfed using a Flying-type attack which has to be certainly enough to OHKO.
Moreover, Normal teams famously have a hard time with this mon, as physically defensive intimidate staraptor (their best option against it) is 2HKO’d. Normal, at least, has the option of running protect on a random mon and letting it crash and hurt itself, but this is barely a reliable counter.

This is the big bit, I guess. Even if you dislike what I say here I stand by the previous two parts, but I do think this should be taken seriously.

Ok, so for a while I've been promising a big suggestion here. I also said earlier that I believe I have an answer to the question "what is more important, all types being at a competitive level, or all types being able to beat any other type if used well?"
This solution probably won't be easy to implement and people may be opposed to it, but if it does get implemented I believe it deals with almost all the problems people have with the meta right now, in that it would make all types viable and at the same time not lead to one-sided games.

About six months ago, I was thinking about the monotype meta and rankings, and sent Antar a message.

I was happy enough with the reply as it'd mostly been curiosity that had led me to ask the question. However, the more I think about it the more this seems to be a good answer. There's precedent in this kind of handicap being used which you can read about in detail on page 31 of this, and though the details would have to be sorted out (do we give the handicap just on whether there's a type advantage, or how much of a type advantage, or even on how often type A beats type B) it would solve the problem of one type (e.g. ice) being considered weak, as often they're weak due to having a large number of bad matchups, which with this system in place wouldn't matter. The team could still do well on the ladder even if it had bad matchups because it would gain more from wins and less from losses, due to the handicap evening things up and making it so that the ladder reflected how good the players were, rather than the players and their types together.

This would probably take quite a bit of coding to do (though I believe team type detection has already been implemented), but I think it'd fix the problems we have with the tier right now. Antar has enough data that we could get an accurate handicap for type disadvantages, or even an accurate handicap for each matchup probably, and with that in place people could use whatever type they liked which would lead to more Variety, while keeping the metagame Competitive such that we don't have to make a decision between the two. And while it may be a little complicated to implement it's not as bad as complex bans in terms of efficiency as it helps newer players enter the game, rather than making it harder for them to understand what's banned and what's not as could be the case with some bans, such as Damp Rock on water teams.



So for those of you too lazy to read through this glorious post of mine, tl;dr:
All of you are wrong, Ban some stuff but not too much stuff, Improve the ratings system so that everything's competitive. Seriously though just read it.


%Death on Wings
 

Croven

certified genius
is a defending SPL Champion
Ok, I've now spent over a week thinking almost entirely on this topic, and promising a big post at some point. So here it is I guess.

Firstly, how to tell if something is broken. This seems to be a topic where people have disagreed, yet I can't see any resolution so far. I would like to bring up this thread, which I have posted before and probably will again. Please, everyone, read it because it's the basis of much of the argument around here.

Next, as Nani Man points out things can be broken in OU yet not in an OU-like metagame, due to Monotype playing out differently. As Crazy Horse points out, nobody has yet explained exactly what the difference is.

Offensive pokemon need support to do well (this will be brought up later, but bear with me). For example, Deoxys-D was banned in OU because it was simply too good at supporting, making the DeoSharp combination very strong. Bisharp was far stronger with Deoxys than without, and Bisharp wasn't suspected because Thundurus showed it could use Deoxys' support in exactly the same way, and arguabliy better. Many offensive teams used Deoxys-D because of the support, and those pokemon simply wouldn't have access to such support in monotype with the exception of psychic pokemon, where generally the support is far less useful.

Another difference is that it is, inevitably, impossible to counter all the threats with every monotype, and at some point checks become the best option. For example, mew is annihilated by Mega Mawile:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 399-471 (98.7 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (Don't forget MMaw often carries Knock off, and can of course run sub rather than SD).
However, if they both come in at the same time or mew comes in on a sucker punch/fire fang, mew wins as it can will-o-wisp, then roost off any damage and laugh at Mawile, assuming there's then a phazer somewhere if it then decides to boost anyway.
Note I'm not saying that MMaw isn't broken (at least not yet), but this is a far more acceptable argument for MMaw not being broken vs. psychic teams, even though it relies on the psychic type predicting maw's switch-in because, while it may be difficult to predict, a good player will beat a bad player which is the point of a competitive metagame.

I would like to at this point dispell a large misconception. Being able to revenge kill something =/= Being able to counter it. Similarly, being able to revenge kill something =/= it being healthy for the metagame. While something doesn't need to be counterable to be fine for the metagame, a check at least is good unless you have very good reasoning why it should be healthy. (For example ditto isn't really checkable, but neither is it broken.) Again, look at the "Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame" rather than simply saying "it can be checked" or "it can't be countered".

There are two more questions to ask about the metagame, I think. While Smogon's tiers are generally very balanced, with each pokemon having roughly the same usefulness within each tier, Nintendo's official formats seem often to be, while still competitive, less balanced. I once asked a VGC player what the tier was about, and the answer was "Choose a mega, then support it." The first question I would ask would be, do we want a Smogon-like metagame, where all pokemon are relatively easily counterable and there's a lot of balance, or do we want to allow some types (notably ice at this point) to become far more a case of "Choose an Uber, then support it."?

The second question I would ask would be, what is more important, all types being at a competitive level, or all types being able to beat any other type if used well? In part 3 I may have an answer to this question, but it's still one that needs to be considered by all.

Ok, I think that's it for Part 1.

Ok, there's going to be all the usuals here, then a few things to think about later. I'll start with the easy ones.

Deoxys-D: This thing was banned for its combination with a defiant user and ghost-type. It's not dual-typed so it's weak to all the things the team's weak to, and there's plenty of good defensive mons for psychic to choose from like slowbro and AV meloetta. The offensive psychic pokemon can use its hazard support, but this thing certainly doesn't seem to make the metagame unballanced, and we should only ban where there is a definite reason to in order to make the metagame more diverse. Don't ban.

Deoxys-S:
Similarly to Deoxys-D, this thing was largely banned for hazard support, and while it can run a good offensive set or run dual screens, it simply doesn't seem that OP when considering it's weak to the same things as the rest of its team, and so doesn't provide particularly much defensive support, while there are already dual screeners and powerful attackers such as scarf gardevoir. Don't ban.

Genesect:
Of the three big unbans, this was perhaps the one people dreaded least. A week later, it's the one I see most concensus on. Almost everyone I have spoken to about this wants it banned, for a number of reasons. Firstly, it's being given to teams that are already strong. Secondly, it creates a huge amount of momentum, and a large number of 50/50s where if the opposing player gets it wrong they lose a pokemon, but if they get it right they deal 30% to a switch-in. And finally, it's powerful enough to be a massive threat in itself. My first piece of evidence for this is that I had to change my Landorus-i set to having 10 defense IVs, otherwise I pracitcally auto-lost to this thing as soon as it got a free switch-in, with ice beam KOing at least one of my pokemon whatever I did. My second piece of evidence would be Auburn's post here:
I do not see that any more evidence of it being broken is needed: For example, in Auburn’s game against All Falls Down, I would argue that AFD was playing better and were genesect not there would also have won, which is certainly what should happen in a competitive game: The better player winning despite steel having a mild type advantage. Ban.

Aegislash:
I don't think this thing is at all broken on ghost teams. On steel teams it was a horror, as between Heatran, Skarmory and Aegislash they were immune to each of the types SE to steel. Ghost, however, needed a versatile pokemon that was strong but counterable, and this is exactly what Aegislash seems to be on ghost teams. With a defensive set stally ghost becomes just about viable, and with an offensive set offensive ghost becomes viable. This was a perfect example of how Monotype breaking off from OU was great for the meta, Praise Nani and Praise Monotyke! Don't ban.

Kyurem-White: I will admit that when I first saw this was being unleashed onto the Monotype metagame, I didn't know what was going on. It's extremely powerful, and incomparable to Kyu-B due to its far better movepool. While Ice-types don't provide the best support, they can provide enough through Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, and a little walling / pivoting. The problem is that the way to beat it isn't to attack it, but to take out its support, and a small slip in this can be more than enough to lead to a sweep, as this replay shows. Sure, BrendanLee should have had a revenge killer, but even if he had used, say, scarf thundurus-t with focus blast, Jak could simply have sacked something to focus miss, sent in an ice shard user, double switched to Kyu-W as the revenge killer switches out, and repeated the process. It's not that it's unbeatable; if BrendanLess predicted correctly in that situation then he might win, but focus blast is barely accurate despite Thundurus-t being one of flying's better revenge killers for the monster, and it stops being a game where teams are involved and starts being a battle between two pokemon with a little support at the start.
We also need to make sure that in trying to make one team stronger, we don't make the metagame unbalanced by causing other types to fall. Let's not forget that the first step we took in becoming an independant tier was banning talonflame for making matchups against grass, bug and fighting too one-sided. I can't help but think of matchups Kyu-W causes to be one-sided here, grass once again being on the list but so too are poison, flying, and ground (252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 243-286 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)

In the middle of all the Kyu-W debate let's not forget why it was considered in the first place. Ice has problems because it's generally a weak type, sure, but the main problem was the lack of ways in which it could deal with Mega Scizor. And what do you know? It still can't. Kyurem-White may be reasonably good against Steel teams, but if Mega Scizor gets to +2 and there's Stealth Rock up, it sweeps same as it ever did. The main problem ice types had is still the main problem ice types have, and their only way to win against mega scizor that they didn't have before is to sweep before steel gets the chance. Once again it's a battle of two pokemon with some teams on the sides, rather than a tactical game featuring 12 independant pokemon, where support pokemon may be considered just as important as sweepers.
And as was eventually decided in this thread I keep spamming a link to, the true purpose of the metagame is to be fun. While Kyurem-White makes ice usable, it makes the game far more matchup-based, far more centered around a single pokemon, less competitive and in my opinion, well... less fun. I'm not gonna use bold when I write Ban because I want people to have read this. It's important to me and important, I think, to the future of the metagame.

Skymin: While this pokemon, given good support, is overpowered, it isn't as powerful as Kyurem-W nor as unpredictable as Genesect. I'm not exactly a good grass player but I played around with it a little, and it's very powerful. It gets plenty of entry hazards from ferro, defog from shiftry, healing wish or baton passed boosts from celebi, and of course Mega Venusaur walls many of the things grass dislikes. It causes fighting, water, ground, rock, bug, and opposing grass not using skymin to struggle but at the same time, it doesn't help all that much against the things grass has always struggled with: ice, steel, flying, fire. It also forces the grass player to make a far more supportive team, as a normal grass team would generally be a lot more bulky and less capable of keeping up offensive pressure, while at the same time Skymin doesn't add any resistances of note in the same way that Mega Venu can tank ice and fire moves, or ferrothorn can take flying, poison or bug moves and shrug them off.
So overall, it doesn't actually seem too powerful. It is, however, bad for the metagame as it requires grass teams to change dramatically if it's to be used well, causing more of this "One pokemon with a team supporting it" mentality rather than a core or whole team working well together. It also causes the games to be far more matchup-based, which is uncompetitive and less fun. So while it wouldn't be gamebreaking if it weren't banned, I'd still prefer a ban.

Mawilite: Ok this is going to look like a cop-out given the essays I've given about other mons, but honestly I haven't seen too much of Mega Mawile. My games against steel have generally been me vs. genesect, though I guess I've had to keep up the pressure on mawile by keeping Zard-X or Landorus in, or having skarmory healthy in the back. Fairy teams, on the other hand, seem to have been scared off by the large number of steel teams infesting the ladder as I've barely seen any since the unbans. At the same time I guess most of my thinking has been on other, more important mons to the metagame. Honestly though I don't know if this should be banned or remain unbanned, but I trust Nani's decision on the matter either way.

Now for some interesting things.

Talonflame: People have brought forwards Talonflame, saying that if we're unbanning Kyu-W, Skymin and Genesect then Talonflame on fire should be unbanned as well. However I think this highlights the problems with the Skymin, Kyu-W and Genesect unbans in that Talonflame is no less broken than it was when we banned it, and the fact it's comparable to these new pokemon simply means they're broken as well. The ability to make games against certain teams very close to a certain win is uncompetitive, and so it is far better to Ban these threats.

Zekrom: Someone brought this up for discussion, saying Electric was a weak typing. However, electric is a decent enough typing, Zekrom is OP, and allowing this into the metagame wouldn't particularly patch up Electric's current weaknesses, rather giving it more power. Electric has got physical attackers, Electric has got ways of dealing with Mega Venusaur, and the metagame would suffer if this thing were unleashed upon it. Keep banned.

Mega Medicham:
I seem to remember someone arguing that Kyurem-W should remain unbanned for ice because ice struggles with certain types loads. Well, let's take the problem to its source. I'm not saying this thing should be banned, but we should have a look at it and properly discuss it. It's very strong vs. ice, and there's this:
Moreover, Normal teams famously have a hard time with this mon, as physically defensive intimidate staraptor (their best option against it) is 2HKO’d. Normal, at least, has the option of running protect on a random mon and letting it crash and hurt itself, but this is barely a reliable counter.

This is the big bit, I guess. Even if you dislike what I say here I stand by the previous two parts, but I do think this should be taken seriously.

Ok, so for a while I've been promising a big suggestion here. I also said earlier that I believe I have an answer to the question "what is more important, all types being at a competitive level, or all types being able to beat any other type if used well?"
This solution probably won't be easy to implement and people may be opposed to it, but if it does get implemented I believe it deals with almost all the problems people have with the meta right now, in that it would make all types viable and at the same time not lead to one-sided games.

About six months ago, I was thinking about the monotype meta and rankings, and sent Antar a message.

I was happy enough with the reply as it'd mostly been curiosity that had led me to ask the question. However, the more I think about it the more this seems to be a good answer. There's precedent in this kind of handicap being used which you can read about in detail on page 31 of this, and though the details would have to be sorted out (do we give the handicap just on whether there's a type advantage, or how much of a type advantage, or even on how often type A beats type B) it would solve the problem of one type (e.g. ice) being considered weak, as often they're weak due to having a large number of bad matchups, which with this system in place wouldn't matter. The team could still do well on the ladder even if it had bad matchups because it would gain more from wins and less from losses, due to the handicap evening things up and making it so that the ladder reflected how good the players were, rather than the players and their types together.

This would probably take quite a bit of coding to do (though I believe team type detection has already been implemented), but I think it'd fix the problems we have with the tier right now. Antar has enough data that we could get an accurate handicap for type disadvantages, or even an accurate handicap for each matchup probably, and with that in place people could use whatever type they liked which would lead to more Variety, while keeping the metagame Competitive such that we don't have to make a decision between the two. And while it may be a little complicated to implement it's not as bad as complex bans in terms of efficiency as it helps newer players enter the game, rather than making it harder for them to understand what's banned and what's not as could be the case with some bans, such as Damp Rock on water teams.



So for those of you too lazy to read through this glorious post of mine, tl;dr:
All of you are wrong, Ban some stuff but not too much stuff, Improve the ratings system so that everything's competitive. Seriously though just read it.


%Death on Wings
Everybody should read this, pretty well thought out and constructed by DoW. One thing I have to nitpick at though, is the ladder coding you mentioned in the last part. While that definitely helps out in the ladder and makes it easier to use whatever type we want on it, it doesn't solve all the problems we are having. Not everything in Monotype is the ladder; there are Leagues on Frost, tournaments that people make, and just any other kind of battle people want. I agree with most, if not all, of the decisions made here regarding the Ubers, and the 'rebans' should be implemented soon imo. Anyway, this is just a follow up post to DoW, since most people should read that and look at the link he spammed.
 
Mega Medicham: I seem to remember someone arguing that Kyurem-W should remain unbanned for ice because ice struggles with certain types loads. Well, let's take the problem to its source. I'm not saying this thing should be banned, but we should have a look at it and properly discuss it. It's very strong vs. ice... Moreover, Normal teams famously have a hard time with this mon, as physically defensive intimidate staraptor (their best option against it) is 2HKO’d. Normal, at least, has the option of running protect on a random mon and letting it crash and hurt itself, but this is barely a reliable counter.
the fact that mega-medicham (a fighting mon) has the advantage against ice and normal teams (both weak to fighting) is not enough to ban IMO... although both of these teams (as well as steel and rock) have to rely on outspeeding it, it has no way to boost its speed past base 100 and isn't exactly bulky. unlike tflame, its priority is limited to non-STAB fake out and bullet punch, and it is feasible for fighting-weak teams to beat it without tinkering too much with their team

we should stop trying to make all types balanced, admit that certain types (mostly ice) are just not as good as others, and keep broken mons banned. ice still has access to kyu-B (a physical kyu-W with dragon/electric as its main coverage), shell smash cloyster, thick fat mamoswine, a rotom-forme for scizor, and other good mons so that they aren't completely unusable.

and to be honest, with new megas and new move tutors coming in about a month, balancing monotype isn't as pressing (grass will get mega-sceptile, rock and fairy get mega-diancie, ghost gets mega-sableye, and who knows ice might get something too [ice would need something like mega-avalugg, ice/steel with a really good ability]).
 
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DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
Everybody should read this, pretty well thought out and constructed by DoW. One thing I have to nitpick at though, is the ladder coding you mentioned in the last part. While that definitely helps out in the ladder and makes it easier to use whatever type we want on it, it doesn't solve all the problems we are having. Not everything in Monotype is the ladder; there are Leagues on Frost, tournaments that people make, and just any other kind of battle people want. I agree with most, if not all, of the decisions made here regarding the Ubers, and the 'rebans' should be implemented soon imo. Anyway, this is just a follow up post to DoW, since most people should read that and look at the link he spammed.
The fact this doesn't affect tournaments is perhaps a weakness, although I think that Frost leagues being able to ignore this change may actually be helpful as they often seem to dislike changes made here, and this not affecting them might in fact make things simpler for them.
the fact that mega-medicham (a fighting mon) has the advantage against ice and normal teams (both weak to fighting) is not enough to ban IMO... although both of these teams (as well as steel and rock) have to rely on outspeeding it, it has no way to boost its speed past base 100 and isn't exactly bulky. unlike tflame, its priority is limited to non-STAB fake out and bullet punch, and it is feasible for fighting-weak teams to beat it without tinkering too much with their team
I'm inclined to agree that Megacham is largely beatable due to low speed, non-stab priority (not that this helps rock or ice teams) and an unreliable main attack.
haunter said:
Srn9130, slightly off-topic, but HJK is by no means a "spammable" move. I'm an avid Mega-Cham user and, trust me, between 90% accuracy, Ghost-type Pokémon and Protect on many of Medicham's favourite targets (Ferrothorn, Heatran, Chansey), HJK becomes hardly a spammable move.
(This was on the topic of OU, but aside from ghost-types it still applies to mono I think.)

However, it's a big threat that can single-handedly do a large amount of damage to a number of teams, so I still think it deserves some attention even if I don't think it should be banned.
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Ok, I've now spent over a week thinking almost entirely on this topic, and promising a big post at some point. So here it is I guess.

Firstly, how to tell if something is broken. This seems to be a topic where people have disagreed, yet I can't see any resolution so far. I would like to bring up this thread, which I have posted before and probably will again. Please, everyone, read it because it's the basis of much of the argument around here.

Next, as Nani Man points out things can be broken in OU yet not in an OU-like metagame, due to Monotype playing out differently. As Crazy Horse points out, nobody has yet explained exactly what the difference is.

Offensive pokemon need support to do well (this will be brought up later, but bear with me). For example, Deoxys-D was banned in OU because it was simply too good at supporting, making the DeoSharp combination very strong. Bisharp was far stronger with Deoxys than without, and Bisharp wasn't suspected because Thundurus showed it could use Deoxys' support in exactly the same way, and arguabliy better. Many offensive teams used Deoxys-D because of the support, and those pokemon simply wouldn't have access to such support in monotype with the exception of psychic pokemon, where generally the support is far less useful.

Another difference is that it is, inevitably, impossible to counter all the threats with every monotype, and at some point checks become the best option. For example, mew is annihilated by Mega Mawile:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 399-471 (98.7 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (Don't forget MMaw often carries Knock off, and can of course run sub rather than SD).
However, if they both come in at the same time or mew comes in on a sucker punch/fire fang, mew wins as it can will-o-wisp, then roost off any damage and laugh at Mawile, assuming there's then a phazer somewhere if it then decides to boost anyway.
Note I'm not saying that MMaw isn't broken (at least not yet), but this is a far more acceptable argument for MMaw not being broken vs. psychic teams, even though it relies on the psychic type predicting maw's switch-in because, while it may be difficult to predict, a good player will beat a bad player which is the point of a competitive metagame.

I would like to at this point dispell a large misconception. Being able to revenge kill something =/= Being able to counter it. Similarly, being able to revenge kill something =/= it being healthy for the metagame. While something doesn't need to be counterable to be fine for the metagame, a check at least is good unless you have very good reasoning why it should be healthy. (For example ditto isn't really checkable, but neither is it broken.) Again, look at the "Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame" rather than simply saying "it can be checked" or "it can't be countered".

There are two more questions to ask about the metagame, I think. While Smogon's tiers are generally very balanced, with each pokemon having roughly the same usefulness within each tier, Nintendo's official formats seem often to be, while still competitive, less balanced. I once asked a VGC player what the tier was about, and the answer was "Choose a mega, then support it." The first question I would ask would be, do we want a Smogon-like metagame, where all pokemon are relatively easily counterable and there's a lot of balance, or do we want to allow some types (notably ice at this point) to become far more a case of "Choose an Uber, then support it."?

The second question I would ask would be, what is more important, all types being at a competitive level, or all types being able to beat any other type if used well? In part 3 I may have an answer to this question, but it's still one that needs to be considered by all.

Ok, I think that's it for Part 1.

Ok, there's going to be all the usuals here, then a few things to think about later. I'll start with the easy ones.

Deoxys-D: This thing was banned for its combination with a defiant user and ghost-type. It's not dual-typed so it's weak to all the things the team's weak to, and there's plenty of good defensive mons for psychic to choose from like slowbro and AV meloetta. The offensive psychic pokemon can use its hazard support, but this thing certainly doesn't seem to make the metagame unballanced, and we should only ban where there is a definite reason to in order to make the metagame more diverse. Don't ban.

Deoxys-S:
Similarly to Deoxys-D, this thing was largely banned for hazard support, and while it can run a good offensive set or run dual screens, it simply doesn't seem that OP when considering it's weak to the same things as the rest of its team, and so doesn't provide particularly much defensive support, while there are already dual screeners and powerful attackers such as scarf gardevoir. Don't ban.

Genesect:
Of the three big unbans, this was perhaps the one people dreaded least. A week later, it's the one I see most concensus on. Almost everyone I have spoken to about this wants it banned, for a number of reasons. Firstly, it's being given to teams that are already strong. Secondly, it creates a huge amount of momentum, and a large number of 50/50s where if the opposing player gets it wrong they lose a pokemon, but if they get it right they deal 30% to a switch-in. And finally, it's powerful enough to be a massive threat in itself. My first piece of evidence for this is that I had to change my Landorus-i set to having 10 defense IVs, otherwise I pracitcally auto-lost to this thing as soon as it got a free switch-in, with ice beam KOing at least one of my pokemon whatever I did. My second piece of evidence would be Auburn's post here:
I do not see that any more evidence of it being broken is needed: For example, in Auburn’s game against All Falls Down, I would argue that AFD was playing better and were genesect not there would also have won, which is certainly what should happen in a competitive game: The better player winning despite steel having a mild type advantage. Ban.

Aegislash:
I don't think this thing is at all broken on ghost teams. On steel teams it was a horror, as between Heatran, Skarmory and Aegislash they were immune to each of the types SE to steel. Ghost, however, needed a versatile pokemon that was strong but counterable, and this is exactly what Aegislash seems to be on ghost teams. With a defensive set stally ghost becomes just about viable, and with an offensive set offensive ghost becomes viable. This was a perfect example of how Monotype breaking off from OU was great for the meta, Praise Nani and Praise Monotyke! Don't ban.

Kyurem-White: I will admit that when I first saw this was being unleashed onto the Monotype metagame, I didn't know what was going on. It's extremely powerful, and incomparable to Kyu-B due to its far better movepool. While Ice-types don't provide the best support, they can provide enough through Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, and a little walling / pivoting. The problem is that the way to beat it isn't to attack it, but to take out its support, and a small slip in this can be more than enough to lead to a sweep, as this replay shows. Sure, BrendanLee should have had a revenge killer, but even if he had used, say, scarf thundurus-t with focus blast, Jak could simply have sacked something to focus miss, sent in an ice shard user, double switched to Kyu-W as the revenge killer switches out, and repeated the process. It's not that it's unbeatable; if BrendanLess predicted correctly in that situation then he might win, but focus blast is barely accurate despite Thundurus-t being one of flying's better revenge killers for the monster, and it stops being a game where teams are involved and starts being a battle between two pokemon with a little support at the start.
We also need to make sure that in trying to make one team stronger, we don't make the metagame unbalanced by causing other types to fall. Let's not forget that the first step we took in becoming an independant tier was banning talonflame for making matchups against grass, bug and fighting too one-sided. I can't help but think of matchups Kyu-W causes to be one-sided here, grass once again being on the list but so too are poison, flying, and ground (252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 243-286 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)

In the middle of all the Kyu-W debate let's not forget why it was considered in the first place. Ice has problems because it's generally a weak type, sure, but the main problem was the lack of ways in which it could deal with Mega Scizor. And what do you know? It still can't. Kyurem-White may be reasonably good against Steel teams, but if Mega Scizor gets to +2 and there's Stealth Rock up, it sweeps same as it ever did. The main problem ice types had is still the main problem ice types have, and their only way to win against mega scizor that they didn't have before is to sweep before steel gets the chance. Once again it's a battle of two pokemon with some teams on the sides, rather than a tactical game featuring 12 independant pokemon, where support pokemon may be considered just as important as sweepers.
And as was eventually decided in this thread I keep spamming a link to, the true purpose of the metagame is to be fun. While Kyurem-White makes ice usable, it makes the game far more matchup-based, far more centered around a single pokemon, less competitive and in my opinion, well... less fun. I'm not gonna use bold when I write Ban because I want people to have read this. It's important to me and important, I think, to the future of the metagame.

Skymin: While this pokemon, given good support, is overpowered, it isn't as powerful as Kyurem-W nor as unpredictable as Genesect. I'm not exactly a good grass player but I played around with it a little, and it's very powerful. It gets plenty of entry hazards from ferro, defog from shiftry, healing wish or baton passed boosts from celebi, and of course Mega Venusaur walls many of the things grass dislikes. It causes fighting, water, ground, rock, bug, and opposing grass not using skymin to struggle but at the same time, it doesn't help all that much against the things grass has always struggled with: ice, steel, flying, fire. It also forces the grass player to make a far more supportive team, as a normal grass team would generally be a lot more bulky and less capable of keeping up offensive pressure, while at the same time Skymin doesn't add any resistances of note in the same way that Mega Venu can tank ice and fire moves, or ferrothorn can take flying, poison or bug moves and shrug them off.
So overall, it doesn't actually seem too powerful. It is, however, bad for the metagame as it requires grass teams to change dramatically if it's to be used well, causing more of this "One pokemon with a team supporting it" mentality rather than a core or whole team working well together. It also causes the games to be far more matchup-based, which is uncompetitive and less fun. So while it wouldn't be gamebreaking if it weren't banned, I'd still prefer a ban.

Mawilite: Ok this is going to look like a cop-out given the essays I've given about other mons, but honestly I haven't seen too much of Mega Mawile. My games against steel have generally been me vs. genesect, though I guess I've had to keep up the pressure on mawile by keeping Zard-X or Landorus in, or having skarmory healthy in the back. Fairy teams, on the other hand, seem to have been scared off by the large number of steel teams infesting the ladder as I've barely seen any since the unbans. At the same time I guess most of my thinking has been on other, more important mons to the metagame. Honestly though I don't know if this should be banned or remain unbanned, but I trust Nani's decision on the matter either way.

Now for some interesting things.

Talonflame: People have brought forwards Talonflame, saying that if we're unbanning Kyu-W, Skymin and Genesect then Talonflame on fire should be unbanned as well. However I think this highlights the problems with the Skymin, Kyu-W and Genesect unbans in that Talonflame is no less broken than it was when we banned it, and the fact it's comparable to these new pokemon simply means they're broken as well. The ability to make games against certain teams very close to a certain win is uncompetitive, and so it is far better to Ban these threats.

Zekrom: Someone brought this up for discussion, saying Electric was a weak typing. However, electric is a decent enough typing, Zekrom is OP, and allowing this into the metagame wouldn't particularly patch up Electric's current weaknesses, rather giving it more power. Electric has got physical attackers, Electric has got ways of dealing with Mega Venusaur, and the metagame would suffer if this thing were unleashed upon it. Keep banned.

Mega Medicham:
I seem to remember someone arguing that Kyurem-W should remain unbanned for ice because ice struggles with certain types loads. Well, let's take the problem to its source. I'm not saying this thing should be banned, but we should have a look at it and properly discuss it. It's very strong vs. ice, and there's this:
Moreover, Normal teams famously have a hard time with this mon, as physically defensive intimidate staraptor (their best option against it) is 2HKO’d. Normal, at least, has the option of running protect on a random mon and letting it crash and hurt itself, but this is barely a reliable counter.

This is the big bit, I guess. Even if you dislike what I say here I stand by the previous two parts, but I do think this should be taken seriously.

Ok, so for a while I've been promising a big suggestion here. I also said earlier that I believe I have an answer to the question "what is more important, all types being at a competitive level, or all types being able to beat any other type if used well?"
This solution probably won't be easy to implement and people may be opposed to it, but if it does get implemented I believe it deals with almost all the problems people have with the meta right now, in that it would make all types viable and at the same time not lead to one-sided games.

About six months ago, I was thinking about the monotype meta and rankings, and sent Antar a message.

I was happy enough with the reply as it'd mostly been curiosity that had led me to ask the question. However, the more I think about it the more this seems to be a good answer. There's precedent in this kind of handicap being used which you can read about in detail on page 31 of this, and though the details would have to be sorted out (do we give the handicap just on whether there's a type advantage, or how much of a type advantage, or even on how often type A beats type B) it would solve the problem of one type (e.g. ice) being considered weak, as often they're weak due to having a large number of bad matchups, which with this system in place wouldn't matter. The team could still do well on the ladder even if it had bad matchups because it would gain more from wins and less from losses, due to the handicap evening things up and making it so that the ladder reflected how good the players were, rather than the players and their types together.

This would probably take quite a bit of coding to do (though I believe team type detection has already been implemented), but I think it'd fix the problems we have with the tier right now. Antar has enough data that we could get an accurate handicap for type disadvantages, or even an accurate handicap for each matchup probably, and with that in place people could use whatever type they liked which would lead to more Variety, while keeping the metagame Competitive such that we don't have to make a decision between the two. And while it may be a little complicated to implement it's not as bad as complex bans in terms of efficiency as it helps newer players enter the game, rather than making it harder for them to understand what's banned and what's not as could be the case with some bans, such as Damp Rock on water teams.



So for those of you too lazy to read through this glorious post of mine, tl;dr:
All of you are wrong, Ban some stuff but not too much stuff, Improve the ratings system so that everything's competitive. Seriously though just read it.


%Death on Wings
I wanted to take a minute to comment on DoW/Articuno's post. Most of this is just me saying I completely agreed w/ their post.

First, I think you knocked it out of the park w/ the metagame and ban/unban arguments, especially the three big ones: Gene, Kyu-w and Skymin.

Weighting battles is a really interesting idea and it would be cool to try out. This would certainly increase the usage of types such as ice and grass, but my fear would be getting the weighting correct so those types don't become "over used" just to climb the ladder quickly (something like iterating the weighting formula over time should easily fix this).

More importantly, I battle in the monotype tier purely for recreation, which means my ladder ranking is ancillary to enjoying the individual battles. It is the competitive aspect that makes it fun, not winning. For instance, my matches w/ Sae, dm35 or Clearly are often very close; I enjoy them, win or lose, far more than sweeping some random person on the ladder. Many of the posts on this thread and my brief time in the monotype community lead me to believe this is true for many others as well.

Thus, if we end up going the route of weighting battles to fulfill the "variety" requirement it should be imperative we do not "rest on our laurels" and continue to ban broken 'mons such that monotype does not degrade to the matchup based meta we are currently experiencing.
 
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I wanted to take a minute to comment on DoW/Articuno's post. Most of this is just me saying I completely agreed w/ their post.

First, I think you knocked it out of the park w/ the metagame and ban/unban arguments, especially the three big ones: Gene, Kyu-w and Skymin.

Weighting battles is a really interesting idea and it would be cool to try out. This would certainly increase the usage of types such as ice and grass, but my fear would be getting the weighting correct so those types don't become "over used" just to climb the ladder quickly (something like iterating the weighting formula over time should easily fix this).

More importantly, I battle in the monotype tier purely for recreation, which means my ladder ranking is ancillary to enjoying the individual battles. It is the competitive aspect that makes it fun, not winning. For instance, my matches w/ Sae, dm35 or Clearly are often very close; I enjoy them, win or lose, far more than sweeping some random person on the ladder. Many of the posts on this thread and my brief time in the monotype community lead me to believe this is true for many others as well.

Thus, if we end up going the route of weighting battles to fulfill the "variety" requirement it should be imperative we do not "rest on our laurels" and continue to ban broken 'mons such that monotype does not degrade to the matchup based meta we are currently experiencing.
I concur with youre satement and dow's but iisnt the wieghting battles more wishful thinking than something we can legitamatly accomplise (correct me if im wrong)
 
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