Except that the only Defog user in Normal is BulkyRaptor, and Fighting keep rocks up pretty easily on the field. Bulkyraptor can't switch-in to take hits and Defog at the same time
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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
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InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
If Terrakion is Scarf, it can be tanked accordingly (anything but CC is Eviolite twins, anything but Stone Edge is BulkyRaptor). If it is anything but Scarf, Mega Lopunny says hi (jump kick). BulkyRaptor has Roost/Feather Dance so it can usually Roost stall for a bit, then Featherdance and continue walling. You didn't do the calc for -1 252 Atk Terrakion with no item (~90% of the time this will be the case, as Sash/Scarf don't boost power). BulkyRaptor can switch in on Scarfed CC, Roost once or twice, Feather Dance, then bye threat. -3 Terrakion isn't doing too much to Normal. As it rushes to switch out it gives you a chance to Defog, or to Feather Dance or Brave Bird the switchin.
If it's Sash then it can Stone Edge after CC (if you switch in), and KO. Rocks are assumed because Staraptor is the only defog user that Normal has that is used. Also, raptor's Brave Bird has recoil which makes it much harder to keep it's health up, especially because it has to switch out against many fighting types switching in because it can't avoid the 2HKO without intimidate.
You're also forgetting that Jolly Scarf only needs that raptor be at 80% for it to 2hko with CC after rocks. Otherwise you'll have to sac something every time it comes in.
Lopunny can't switch in against Terrakion (just like it can't against Gallade) but can revenge kill (though it comes to chosing between it and MegaAudino)
You're also forgetting that Jolly Scarf only needs that raptor be at 80% for it to 2hko with CC after rocks. Otherwise you'll have to sac something every time it comes in.
Lopunny can't switch in against Terrakion (just like it can't against Gallade) but can revenge kill (though it comes to chosing between it and MegaAudino)
The stuff about mega Sableye on that post. The thing saved it as a draft and no matter how many times I deleted it, it was still there. I hadn't even intended to mention mega Sableye.
Bulkraptor is used to keep stuff off the field, and you really don't need to plan for Swords Dance Terrakion. Just about everyone uses scarf. If they pick Stone Edge with Terrakion then you just swap to something else (assuming they even hit). And btw, please don't use 252 hp to calc flying types.
A -1 close combat is way less scary than a normal one. Also, mega Audino is the least popular mega on normal for a reason. Regardless, Terrakion doesn't necessarily 'destroy' Normal. If anything it forces one sac before you get rid of the rocks and suddenly have a much easier time of it, assuming you're not a u-turn abuser like me who keeps killing stuff off by getting Lopunny in for free. Its a hard game that requires great prediction, but not an impossible game.
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Barida
Banned deucer.
Im going to make this short and simple.
When are we going to get rid of the overpowered stuff in the meta, for the past month all i have heard is soon and soon? well to be honest.. i feel like yall havent made no progress if you have please tell me where and how far you are to getting rid of this stuff
i rather see us be ban hungry then wasting are time for we can actually use skill to play the game.
When are we going to get rid of the overpowered stuff in the meta, for the past month all i have heard is soon and soon? well to be honest.. i feel like yall havent made no progress if you have please tell me where and how far you are to getting rid of this stuff
i rather see us be ban hungry then wasting are time for we can actually use skill to play the game.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Uh, if it can sweep your team after your checks are weakened/dead isn't that a little broken? I mean, I know other Pokemon can do this against some types and aren't considered "borked asf" (<-- technical term), but Mega Gallade can do it against Normal, Rock, Steel, Poison, Ghost, Psychic, Ice, and Grass at least. Also, it will usually come in on something it outspeeds in base form, so the low starting speed doesn't matter, or come in on something it can force out, so it can safely Mega Evolve and get up to 110 speed. Also, when did I say "Stuff" lol I actually went and looked for it and couldn't find it.
Sweeping your opponent's team once checks and counters to it are weakened and dead is kind of how 99% of late-game sweepers, particularly set-up sweepers, tend to work, just saying.
No, I'm not saying Mega Gallade isn't broken (also, a Fighting type who can sweep Ice? Alert the media!). But using a near textbook definition that would apply to DOZENS of other Pokemon, does not make for a good argument as to why Mega Hasubando should be banned.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Yeah, but Mega Gallade can do this against at least half the metagame, and consistently get at least a couple of kills in the other matchups. Something like Bisharp (a great OU late game sweeper) could sweep Ghost, Psychic, and Ice late-game, and maybe another one, but many teams have counters that can't be 2-3HKOed or something that outspeeds and can one shot it without dying to Sucker Punch (every Fighting type comes to mind, and most faster Fairy types, such as ScarfKiss and ScarfGarde, or post-Unburden Slurpuff with Aura Sphere/Fire Blast, Focus Blast, and Drain Punch respectively).
Lilymoding
formerly Kyosuru Jets
Okay tell me if I'm wrong, but if your checks and counters are gone then there is nothing to stop a late game sweeper from sweeping, correct? In the Bisharp example, it's more a question "Does this type counter me". If Bisharp's checks and counters are gone, then it can sweep no questions asked. If something else is still alive, like said above, then you obviously didn't kill all of the checks and counters. So really the correct question to be asking isn't "Mega Gallade easily sweeps with all the checks and counters gone", because literally any late game sweeper can do that. It's more "How many checks and counters are there to get through", which in your case Bisharp just happens to have more than Mega Gallade. I think this should be discussed: Just how many things can stop Mega Gallade without straying too far from being viable in the meta (Over centralization)?
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Yeah, this is what I was trying to get at. Unlike Bisharp, Mega Gallade is not weak to any priority. Bisharp is 4x weak to Mach Punch. Bisharp can also be outsped, whereas not much outspeeds Mega Gallade (110 is very high). Outside of Scarfers and a few other Megas, not much common outspeeds it. It usually forces a switch or comes in on something it outspeeds before Mega evolving so it gets a free turn to Mega Evolve and get to base 110. On the defensive side, not too much can tank it as it has great attack, SD and Bulk Up, and wide coverage. So, Mega Gallade already has fewer counters than Bisharp before we even look at Pokemon. It will often get at the very least one kill per match, and will sweep around half of all types at least, after they have been banged up a bit. It does its job very well, and most things will be dented by it at the very least. I don't have time to do calcs but I'm pretty sure not much generic stuff can switch in and counter it repeatedly, especially if there are hazards or if it is at +2. Mega Gallade also has good bulk that lets it tank a hit and set up and only has 3 weaknesses, all to not very common types/coverage moves (outside of Flying, which doesn't always run their STABs). Some counters who may be able to counter specific sets, can be nailed by a coverage move of choice, and while you may have a general idea of what set it is going to run, your opponent may have changed a coverage move and gone the non-generic route, leaving you with a dead "counter"
Isn't Shadow Sneak a Priority move? M-Gallade is still weak to Ghost isn't it?
Pokemon that get Shadow Sneak with Ghost STAB:
Banette (and we've all seen that awesome Attack Stat on M-Banette)
Dusknoir
Spiritomb
Aegislash (forgot if Aegi got banned to Ghost or Steel)
Gourgheist
252+ Atk Mega Banette Shadow Sneak vs. 242 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 182-216 (54 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's a BULKY M-Gallade too, and that's still a 2HKO. Meanwhile, at +0, M-Gallade cannot get a clean 1HKO, and would require a turn to set up a SD TO snag a 1HKO.
However, if M-Gallade IS using Shadow Sneak, GG M-Banette. Not much Ghost can do there. But wait!
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Mega Banette: 264-312 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
In a one-on-one scenario, if M-Gallade and M-Banette come out at the SAME time, M-Banette has an edge due to the fact that it's a CLEAN 2HKO, meanwhile at +2, M-Gallade cannot reliably 1HKO M-Banette. However, this is still highly risky for the Banette player, and no one wants to have to essentially sack their Pokemon to get rid of another. And if M-Gallade is already at +2, there's very little that Ghost can do against it unless it's crippled via Burns or Paralysis, it WILL essentially require a sacrifice to beat. Although let's be honest: Ghost is RIFE with Will-o-Wisp utilizers.
So how would one play around M-Gallade on Ghost? I would suggest something BULKY, but it will still take excellent prediction and a bit of luck. A bulky WoW user such as: Dusclops (Defensive Eviolite) or a Defensive Gourgheist. Both would require M-Gallade to use SD to have a chance of properly KOing them, giving them a round to use WoW. Now, Fighting is sort of lacking in Clerics, so Gallade will now have a pretty hard time.
4 Atk Gourgeist-Large Shadow Sneak vs. 242 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 86-104 (25.5 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
And then you can whittle away at it, threatening it later with something heavier-hitting like M-Banette. And if it IS swapped out, Gallade on a Fighting team is now a sitting duck unless it has TWO turns now to set up a SD.
But let's be honest here: this plan is way to convoluted to be reliably pulled off, and cannot be expected of everyone in Monotype. All the strategies to play around M-Gallade here rely on the team not having a Cleric (which is far easier for Psychic to pull, so this really only works against Gallade on Fighting), sacking a teammate (not optimal at all), or pulling off some amazing double-switches (unreasonable to expect every time you come up against it).
tl;dr, M-Gallade, on further inspection, is kind of unfair, at least against Ghost, something that, hypothetically, Psychic or Fighting should STRUGGLE against for one reason or another by most standings.
Pokemon that get Shadow Sneak with Ghost STAB:
Banette (and we've all seen that awesome Attack Stat on M-Banette)
Dusknoir
Spiritomb
Aegislash (forgot if Aegi got banned to Ghost or Steel)
Gourgheist
252+ Atk Mega Banette Shadow Sneak vs. 242 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 182-216 (54 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's a BULKY M-Gallade too, and that's still a 2HKO. Meanwhile, at +0, M-Gallade cannot get a clean 1HKO, and would require a turn to set up a SD TO snag a 1HKO.
However, if M-Gallade IS using Shadow Sneak, GG M-Banette. Not much Ghost can do there. But wait!
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Mega Banette: 264-312 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
In a one-on-one scenario, if M-Gallade and M-Banette come out at the SAME time, M-Banette has an edge due to the fact that it's a CLEAN 2HKO, meanwhile at +2, M-Gallade cannot reliably 1HKO M-Banette. However, this is still highly risky for the Banette player, and no one wants to have to essentially sack their Pokemon to get rid of another. And if M-Gallade is already at +2, there's very little that Ghost can do against it unless it's crippled via Burns or Paralysis, it WILL essentially require a sacrifice to beat. Although let's be honest: Ghost is RIFE with Will-o-Wisp utilizers.
So how would one play around M-Gallade on Ghost? I would suggest something BULKY, but it will still take excellent prediction and a bit of luck. A bulky WoW user such as: Dusclops (Defensive Eviolite) or a Defensive Gourgheist. Both would require M-Gallade to use SD to have a chance of properly KOing them, giving them a round to use WoW. Now, Fighting is sort of lacking in Clerics, so Gallade will now have a pretty hard time.
4 Atk Gourgeist-Large Shadow Sneak vs. 242 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 86-104 (25.5 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
And then you can whittle away at it, threatening it later with something heavier-hitting like M-Banette. And if it IS swapped out, Gallade on a Fighting team is now a sitting duck unless it has TWO turns now to set up a SD.
But let's be honest here: this plan is way to convoluted to be reliably pulled off, and cannot be expected of everyone in Monotype. All the strategies to play around M-Gallade here rely on the team not having a Cleric (which is far easier for Psychic to pull, so this really only works against Gallade on Fighting), sacking a teammate (not optimal at all), or pulling off some amazing double-switches (unreasonable to expect every time you come up against it).
tl;dr, M-Gallade, on further inspection, is kind of unfair, at least against Ghost, something that, hypothetically, Psychic or Fighting should STRUGGLE against for one reason or another by most standings.
Tbf, that's only on Ghost monos. Spiritomb + Gourgiest is hardly seen in their other type teams. Also, Aegislash was banned on Steel, not Ghost but that doesn't really help
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Whoops forgot about Shadow Sneak. It is only usually used on Ghost monos tho, and Mega Gallade has access to Knock Off and its own Shadow Sneak to nail them. Something like Conkeldurr is a great WoW absorber. Guts gives it an attack boost, and Knock Off will wreck Ghost after that, so the Ghost player has to be careful when flinging out wisps. Fighting also has other Guts users, such as Heracross who can take wisps well as well, or Infernape can't be burned at all. Keldeo can take wisps semi-effectively as a special attacker, or Sub sets mean it can't be wisped at all. Also, Mega Banette is pretty rare. It only has around 10% usage. Ghost also has Mega Sableye who is really good, and is used around 72% of the time (usually a better choice than Banette imo). Aegislash/Gourgeist are the only semi-common Shadow Sneakers, and Gourgeist doesn't invest in attack. Mega Gallade can usually sweep Ghost with SD/Knock Off and the potential for Shadow Sneak, and bulky wispers who might tank a hit and burn it are handled by Guts users such as Conk and Heracross or even Throh/Hariyama o3o.
Also: Shadow Sneak is only on 17% of Spiritombs, who is only on 5.41% of Ghost teams and it is only on 53.6% of Dusknoirs, who is only on 2.18% of Ghost teams.
One last point: tfw you say "we've all seen that awesome Attack Stat on M-Banette" and then realize Mega Gallade has THE EXACT SAME ATTACK STAT with much better speed and excellent coverage. Mega Gallade is a huge threat with an awesome attack stat, very helpful speed, and fantastic coverage (I just repeated myself but I don't care) and it needs to be banned, as there are many Pokemon it can threaten out and use to set up, before sweeping at least half the types in the metagame.
Also: Shadow Sneak is only on 17% of Spiritombs, who is only on 5.41% of Ghost teams and it is only on 53.6% of Dusknoirs, who is only on 2.18% of Ghost teams.
One last point: tfw you say "we've all seen that awesome Attack Stat on M-Banette" and then realize Mega Gallade has THE EXACT SAME ATTACK STAT with much better speed and excellent coverage. Mega Gallade is a huge threat with an awesome attack stat, very helpful speed, and fantastic coverage (I just repeated myself but I don't care) and it needs to be banned, as there are many Pokemon it can threaten out and use to set up, before sweeping at least half the types in the metagame.
Not pointing directly at you, but its worth saying that Banette cant use that attack stat reliably with as hell moves to hit people with where Gallade is able to have at least reliable 120 and 80 BP most of the time. Just further point that said statement doesnt hold much water there (along with your already statements of coverage and etc.).
January Stats are up on the Monotype Website: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/stats.html
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
I never said Mega Banette was good. I was simply quoting TM93 who said it had an awesome attack stat, and pointing out that Mega Gallade has the same attack, boosting options, better speed, better bulk, and better coverage.
Hence why i said directing at you, just to add to it bud.
I wasn't really trying to say M-Banette was some end-all-be-all, but I figured it was viable enough to be considered and had enough offensive power to threaten to 2HKO M-Gallade. I kind of went on rants and tangents from there whenever I saw flaws with the plan, I do that now and again.
I apologize if that came off as any different.
Edit: I'm not really sure how bad Flying is looking at those stats. Useage doesn't imply it's broken, and it has a solid Win ratio, it's only above 70% win ratio against POISON.
Obviously when you have more people USING a type, you're going to have more people WINNING with said type if it's a solid type. That doesn't mean it's broken.
Heck, looking at the unbalanced Matchups, Flying only has one, which is vs Poison. Steel and Dragon actually have more overwhelming advantages in their favor in that case, and lack any Types that seem to almost always trump them.
I apologize if that came off as any different.
Edit: I'm not really sure how bad Flying is looking at those stats. Useage doesn't imply it's broken, and it has a solid Win ratio, it's only above 70% win ratio against POISON.
Obviously when you have more people USING a type, you're going to have more people WINNING with said type if it's a solid type. That doesn't mean it's broken.
Heck, looking at the unbalanced Matchups, Flying only has one, which is vs Poison. Steel and Dragon actually have more overwhelming advantages in their favor in that case, and lack any Types that seem to almost always trump them.
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Problem is, flying only has two negative win ratios. Ice and Ground. Seems a little OP. It takes up over a tenth of the meta and has only two 'bad' matchups, one of which is still winnable with some decent predicts. Limiting all seventeen other types to less than ninety percent of the meta seems a little off...
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Awesome! Some things I noticed from a quick look at type stats
Flying finally has over 10% usage.
Psychic and Steel switched places, they are now 2nd and 4th respectively, with water still holding down third.
Normal and Fairy both dropped in usage. Fairy is probably because of Mega Metagross. Normal is probably because of Mega Gallade/Medicham
Electric is surprisingly up to 4% usage, the Core challenge maybe?
Dragon and Ground are now the closest to the average 5.56% usage that every type would have in an ideal metagame.
I will post some stuff I noticed about the actual Pokemon later, glad we finally have a few months worth of stuff now to go on and draw conclusions from!
If Gallade is using Shadow Sneak it's not using Knock Off (because of redundant coverage) and thus can't OHKO Bulky Ghosts before getting burned or damaged hard in return. Aegislash (for Ghost) and Doublade (Steel) also beat it 1v1 with Shadow Sneak without convoluted plays. Doublade 2HKOes and can't be OHKOed with any move (even at +2) and 2HKOes back with Shadow Sneak (or uses SD and OHKOes). Aegislash can be OHKOed by Knock Off at +2 (so if Shadow Sneak then it wins 1v1 all the time), but it also 2HKOes with Shadow Sneak with no investment and the Gallade user has to guess 50/50 for that darn King's Shield.
Awesome, thanks. Some things I've noticed about grass mono.
Nov (2.30%) -> Dec (2.39%) -> Jan (3.13%): This is great to see that grass is growing in usage.
If every type was used equally, it would amount to about 5.56% usage, so its well on its way.
EDIT: I forgot to mention about type match-ups.
Terrible Matchup : Dragon, Fairy, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Steel ---> Fire, Flying ---> Bug, Fire, Flying, Steel
Bad Matchup: Bug, Dark, Fight, Normal, Poison, Psychic ---> Bug, Dark, Dragon, Fairy, Fight, Ghost, Ground, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Steel ---> Dragon, Fairy, Fight, Ghost, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic
Neutral Matchup: Ground, Ice, Water ---> N/A ---> Dark, Electric, Ground
Good Matchup: Electric, Rock ---> Electric, Rock ---> Rock, Water
Awesome Matchup: N/A ---> Water ---> N/A
I guess you can see from the general tiers above that Grass still doesn't fair very well against a majority of the metagame.
Looking at the top 12 for grass over the last three months we can see that:
TOP 12: (note bold means new entry into top 12, green means the pokemon has risen in rank and red means it has fallen in rank)
1. Ferrothorn (90.52%) ---> Ferrothorn (89.92%) ---> Ferrothorn (88.50%)
2. Breloom (90.07%) ---> Breloom (80.54%) ---> Breloom (83.74%)
3. Shaymin-Sky (78.90%) ---> Shaymin-Sky (76.38%) ---> Shaymin-Sky (79.65%)
4. Venusaur (61.72%) ---> Venusaur (65.45%) ---> Venusaur (77.91%)
5. Ludicolo (45. 37%) ---> Cradily (46.97%) ---> Serperior (42.34%)
6. Cradily (39.37%) ---> Sceptile (36.87) ---> Cradily (39.17%)
7. Sceptile (38.38%) ---> Whimiscott (28.01%) ---> Sceptile (28.50%)
8. Rotom-Mow (32.69%) ---> Rotom-Mow (27.22%) ---> Rotom-Mow (25.82%)
9. Whimsicott (23.97%) ---> Ludicolo (24.98%) ---> Whimsicott (23.64%)
10. Gourgeist (14.64%) ---> Roserade (20.32%) ---> Ludicolo (18.20%)
11. Shiftry (13.23%) ---> Shiftry (17.56%) ---> Celebi (16.49%)
12. Celebi (8.66%) ---> Celebi (14.76%) ---> Trevenant (11.82%)
So essentially, the top 4 haven't changed. Gourgeist fell out of the top 12 in December and now sits at 18th spot with 2.99% usage. Roserade moved into the top 12 in November only to drop out again in January to sit just outside at 13th with 11.72% usage. Shiftry dropped out of the top 12 in January and now sits beside Roserade at 14th with 10.04% usage. With Roserade and Shiftry dropping out of the top 12, the new additions of Serperior and Trevenant have made their way up. Trevenant had been borderline in 13th position for November and December, but Serperior rose from 30th spot with 1.06% usage in December to 5th with 42.24% usage thanks to the release of Contrary. It is also interesting to note that in the last three months, pokemon mentioned above, no other grass type has been above 10% usage. There isn't much else to say apart from the mega forms stays more or less the same. Venusaur was 62.91% in Dec and 75.85% in Jan for Mega usage while Sceptile was 32.50% in Dec and 18.97% in Jan. The fall in Sceptile's usage as a Mega is likely due to the rise of Serperior which basically does the same job without a mega stone and with free boosts (obviously it can't run physical sets though, and isn't as fast, giving Mega-Sceptile it's niche). I won't go into movesets as that would take forever but I'm sure there is lots of interesting stuff to say there as well.
ASIDE: I would also be interested to know, with three months worth of stats, whether there is any chance of an UU monotype tier being formulated, using monotype stats instead of OU stats.
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I wouldn't count on it...
Team building is already restricted in Monotype, and taking away most of the top Pokemon would leave UU teams without some of the ever-important resists and immunities that make teams viable. The other side of this is Monotype already contains one of the widest pools of viable Pokemon, especially when compared to the standard tiers:
OU: 49 Pokemon
UU: 61 Pokemon
RU: 53 Pokemon
NU: 58 Pokemon
We have at least 6 viable Pokemon for all 18 types (I know there are dual type Pokemon, but different types often use these Pokemon differently and it is easy to argue most types have well over 6). 6*18=108, which puts us in a metagame with more than 100 Pokemon you should expect to encounter on the ladder.
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Just to add on to this, BetaHousing actually showed some of the staff the actual "UU Monotype" stats/ban list a few months ago from the OM room and most of the Monotype room staff who saw it agreed that a UU Monotype back then wouldn't have been that good of an idea. Sure usage has changed from back then but that only hurts a UU Monotype than help tbh.
Edit: I'm pretty sure they might have forgotten about it cause it was such a bad idea at the time rof.
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