Enoch, for the record, I was stating my opinion on the issue at hand about Talon getting banned. So, please don't be rude like that over me stating my opinion on the matter. I appreciate your critiques on what I had to say, I truley do, but imagine acting that rude to newer players to the metagame and to smogon entirely. They'll probably leave and won't think its very fun at all :/ But onto the actual topic. For each type I do believe there are counters for different pokes, gamefreak wouldn't just throw in pokemon that they know will wreck the entire meta. Like for example, I am a long time Ground user, and to this day I struggle against water. That doesn't mean it is impossible, because I know there are counters, and that maybe I just haven't found the perfect 1 yet (I'm that sorta guy who kinda does trial and error). But personally, I am very firm that Talon is in no way terrible.
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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
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Look, didn't mean to be rude, just reall tired of people saying "it's not OP" when none of us are using that as a basis of our argument. My bad.
I mean we could always resort to suspect testing on frost where the most mono players are in one group. I'm sure the frost staff would allow this sense they are a bit more loose about these type of things than main.
and i don't think 1500 is high enough. 1600 maybe.
Sash terrakion im laughing so hard do you even
Scarf Terrakion
Aka the fire/flying killer that nearly every fighting team packs
It checks talonflame omfg. Do you know what a check is, or do I have to explain that to you too?
Dude. You're only acknowledging shit solutions.
As if cobalion is all fighting has to offer. Scarf terrakion checks, sash breloom checks with rock tomb (not spore, do I have to spell this out for you?)
Come on dude. Rocky helmet ferro stops talon, as well as breloom for grass.
I seriously can't even believe you're lecturing me on how to play competitively. Nobody with experence with mono or pokemon in general thinks Cobalion is a good idea for stopping the likes of Talonflame. Get some half decent arguments like the rest of the somewhat sane talonflame prohibitionists in here.
Furthermore: If you want counters for every pokemon handed to you on a silver platter, you might want to reconsider how you're battling. There are lots of ways to check talonflame, and with good strategy, you can get by even without these checks.
Think about this: Is it really so bad to have a factor in the metagame that drives creative strategy?
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Listen, Fighting is my primary Monotype. Yes I know what a fucking check is. I never said Cobalion is all fighting has to offer, I used a fucking Scarfed Terrakion and Rock Tomb Breloom before. And know what? Your obviously a dumbass and arent aware of what that post was meant for at all. You don't get my points (You probably dont even know what they were). Want me to tell you what my fucking points were? My points were against Stunfisk the Great. he was the one over here saying Cobalion "easily takes down a Talonflame". In fact, most of that other shit was from him (The tangrowth, rotom, cobalion, etc.) Sorry I misread your fucking post earlier for you not being clear enough. Only problem is u cant switch in a Terrakion since it gets 2HKOed by Talon, and if there are Stealth Rocks up, try your breloom Idea. But I can say, they are checks if u have them in battle as good as new.
Next time Redwolf, read the thread and every single post over and over again down to the last detail to know what the fuck im talking about, cuz most of your post was made by someone who needs to learn how to actually read stuff
The definition of a check is you can't switch in, isn't that kind of implied o.o? Also, you were talking about my argument in it, so I assumed you were addressing me. A much more reasonable assumption then that you would use spore over rock tomb on a sash breloom or run a sash Terrakion :P
Anyway, that's beside the point. What people need to talk about here is this:
Anyway, that's beside the point. What people need to talk about here is this:
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I only misread a part of ur argument (As in I thought u said to use Sashed Terrakion). I was just too lazy to make it in a separate comment box. Sorry about the mix up. lol
Anyways, ill admit thats a good thing to think about but remember, there are limited options in certain scenarios.
Think about what can check/counter Talon on a Grass, Bug, or Fighting Mono (Since those are the ones which seem to be getting the notice for reasons to ban Talon or Gale Wings) in a normal battlefield (No hazards or weather or anything else). Then think of situations such as if there are Stealth Rocks or if your in rain or some other condition. Then, if u can find a list of viable options, ill agree with your point of view here.
Think about what can check/counter Talon on a Grass, Bug, or Fighting Mono (Since those are the ones which seem to be getting the notice for reasons to ban Talon or Gale Wings) in a normal battlefield (No hazards or weather or anything else). Then think of situations such as if there are Stealth Rocks or if your in rain or some other condition. Then, if u can find a list of viable options, ill agree with your point of view here.
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Speaking of cobalion... I found Occa Berry Cobalion + Hitmontop to be pretty effective for stopping talonflame for fighting mono. It felt very rewarding to discover a creative way to deal with a threat and it also made me discover an interesting core to work with. Is this not the rewarding feeling we seek in monotype? I had to run a two poke core to stop it but it works and I learned to adapt other uses of the core and eventually make it essential to the team. For bug using shuckle for hazard setter and shiz, armaldo for spinning to be ok at countering talonflame. 252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Coba Berry Volcarona: 304-358 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I ran a coba berry volcarona to prevent getting revenge killed when healthy as well, since Orb wasn't as needed it was fine running bulky speedy volc w/ out lefties too. I also put an AV escavalier for in general balance and it assists in T-Flame troubles as a side bonus. now i could run rocky helmet on shuckle/armaldo as well to rack up more damage if needed. Now that is a lot of preparation for a big threat but by giving them side roles it doesn't feel over focused. AV escavalier does nicely against swift swim, dragons and a Pretty good fallback for the team. I already went over armaldo's role who is in general a better spinner for bug anyway as opposed to forretress. Volcarona is a bulky boosting set just sacrificing an item to take out an unsuspecting talonflame that tries to revenge kill but besides that it performs its role as usual. These trump cards I lay out to defeat talonflame is what creative team building is. I'm not gonna sit here and say its exactly a perfect defensive but in monotype you gotta recognize when you have lost. i managed to pack about 4 talonflame fallbacks on a bug team. for fighting it only took 2 pokemanz to deal with it. My original angle was that fire depended on talonflame too much for it to be banned but people here tend to ignore that so I'm taking the angle that bug and fighting can still put up a fight. I don't have much to add to grass that hasn't been mentioned already however.
In a somewhat desperate attempt to stress how important talonflame is to fire I show a replay and explanation.
My first claim is that fire can't run hyper offensive w/out talonflame effectively at all. The reason of this is because its scarfers aren't reliable, it doesn't have many immunity options and something to put immense offensive pressure outside of wallbreakers.
Here is my offensive fire team in action: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-485815
In it is a prime example of how talonflame becomes essential to the playstyle. If that guy made the correct choice of EQ'ing Entei I would have got swept if it werent for talonflame. Talonflame's priority is what makesit so useful to fire I can't say it enough. Banning GW + T-flame mind as well just be a talonflame ban in general. Besides being a nice option against sucker punch talonflame also packs a powerful priority option for the lack of speed option mono-fire has.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-308263 Another Replay
This Replay showcases T-Flame vs Dragon. Now there's been complaints that T-Flame gives dragon a lot of problems and I really don't agree. Slap on a Tyrantrum to stop it and put out rocks and you're done. However I ran an Apicot Berry Natural Gift TalonFlame For better matchups against would be counters since its not fun to switch when using hyper offense. TalonFlame is what won this battle for me though. Entei's mediocrity of a priority is also evident in both of these replays. Talonflame allowed me to ko tyrantrum who would block banded entei's E-Speed's and basically make me auto-lose. Instead I managed to pull a win. I use Scarf Infernape as its fastest decent scarfer fire has to offer while still dealing significant damage to +1 chari-x. I don't main fire or anything but I just use it every now and then...but I can't imagine myself playing it without talonflame, else I would have to just go back to using a typical torkoal + ninetales setup which is boring and doesn't allow me to use an offensive typing to its maximum potential instead being stuck using a balance style team w/ a Offensive Typed Mono. So ask yourself should Fire Mono be unable to Play as its Type's Philosophy suggest? Offensively. ~ Rorschach
I ran a coba berry volcarona to prevent getting revenge killed when healthy as well, since Orb wasn't as needed it was fine running bulky speedy volc w/ out lefties too. I also put an AV escavalier for in general balance and it assists in T-Flame troubles as a side bonus. now i could run rocky helmet on shuckle/armaldo as well to rack up more damage if needed. Now that is a lot of preparation for a big threat but by giving them side roles it doesn't feel over focused. AV escavalier does nicely against swift swim, dragons and a Pretty good fallback for the team. I already went over armaldo's role who is in general a better spinner for bug anyway as opposed to forretress. Volcarona is a bulky boosting set just sacrificing an item to take out an unsuspecting talonflame that tries to revenge kill but besides that it performs its role as usual. These trump cards I lay out to defeat talonflame is what creative team building is. I'm not gonna sit here and say its exactly a perfect defensive but in monotype you gotta recognize when you have lost. i managed to pack about 4 talonflame fallbacks on a bug team. for fighting it only took 2 pokemanz to deal with it. My original angle was that fire depended on talonflame too much for it to be banned but people here tend to ignore that so I'm taking the angle that bug and fighting can still put up a fight. I don't have much to add to grass that hasn't been mentioned already however.
In a somewhat desperate attempt to stress how important talonflame is to fire I show a replay and explanation.
My first claim is that fire can't run hyper offensive w/out talonflame effectively at all. The reason of this is because its scarfers aren't reliable, it doesn't have many immunity options and something to put immense offensive pressure outside of wallbreakers.
Here is my offensive fire team in action: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-485815
In it is a prime example of how talonflame becomes essential to the playstyle. If that guy made the correct choice of EQ'ing Entei I would have got swept if it werent for talonflame. Talonflame's priority is what makesit so useful to fire I can't say it enough. Banning GW + T-flame mind as well just be a talonflame ban in general. Besides being a nice option against sucker punch talonflame also packs a powerful priority option for the lack of speed option mono-fire has.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-308263 Another Replay
This Replay showcases T-Flame vs Dragon. Now there's been complaints that T-Flame gives dragon a lot of problems and I really don't agree. Slap on a Tyrantrum to stop it and put out rocks and you're done. However I ran an Apicot Berry Natural Gift TalonFlame For better matchups against would be counters since its not fun to switch when using hyper offense. TalonFlame is what won this battle for me though. Entei's mediocrity of a priority is also evident in both of these replays. Talonflame allowed me to ko tyrantrum who would block banded entei's E-Speed's and basically make me auto-lose. Instead I managed to pull a win. I use Scarf Infernape as its fastest decent scarfer fire has to offer while still dealing significant damage to +1 chari-x. I don't main fire or anything but I just use it every now and then...but I can't imagine myself playing it without talonflame, else I would have to just go back to using a typical torkoal + ninetales setup which is boring and doesn't allow me to use an offensive typing to its maximum potential instead being stuck using a balance style team w/ a Offensive Typed Mono. So ask yourself should Fire Mono be unable to Play as its Type's Philosophy suggest? Offensively. ~ Rorschach
I haven't been following this threat that closely and am not aware of all arguments that have been brought up, but in my opinion the most dangerous thing about talonflame is the way it interacts with its team members. Sure, each type has ways to counter talonflame; sash breloom is what comes to mind the most. However, each counter can be taken care of by talonflame's team members. Hazards ruin breloom's sash, and preserving the sash means breloom can only revenge kill (requiring a sacrifice in order to bring it in). The most part rock types can survive is three hits, meaning they can only switch into talonflame once. In addition, checks to talonflame may also be required in order to check other pokemon. Alone, talonflame is pretty strong, but not uncounterable, but its potential teammates amplify its potential to become incredibly difficult to counter. After the entire team is weakened due to the combination of talonflame and protection through teammembers, talonflame can finish off the weakened team.
With a bug team, I have managed to peak at around the mid high 1500s, defeating talonflame through the use of pokemon such as armaldo and sash galvantula. However, some players are smart enough to switch talonflame out of counters, and bring it in later to sweep a weakened team. Acrobatics has no recoil damage, so it cannot be worn off through recoil. It is the players that play talonflame smartly that make it difficult to play types like bug (and that I can never defeat using bug). I once managed to defeat someone who played it smartly, but that was only because he forgot gale wings on talonflame (which makes it clear that it's its ability that makes it difficult to defeat).
Personally, despite all this, I believe it should not be banned, because each type has pokemon that it finds quite difficult to counter. (My psychic team hated volcarona in gen 5.) That's just my opinion though, so consider the previous paragraphs for food for thought. (And sorry if my argument doesn't make much sense, it's getting late where I am.)
With a bug team, I have managed to peak at around the mid high 1500s, defeating talonflame through the use of pokemon such as armaldo and sash galvantula. However, some players are smart enough to switch talonflame out of counters, and bring it in later to sweep a weakened team. Acrobatics has no recoil damage, so it cannot be worn off through recoil. It is the players that play talonflame smartly that make it difficult to play types like bug (and that I can never defeat using bug). I once managed to defeat someone who played it smartly, but that was only because he forgot gale wings on talonflame (which makes it clear that it's its ability that makes it difficult to defeat).
Personally, despite all this, I believe it should not be banned, because each type has pokemon that it finds quite difficult to counter. (My psychic team hated volcarona in gen 5.) That's just my opinion though, so consider the previous paragraphs for food for thought. (And sorry if my argument doesn't make much sense, it's getting late where I am.)
While I am seeing more ways of countering Talonflame through using multiple pokes together, I still maintain that countering Talonflame often requires creating a whole team around the problem, where the counters are less useful at anything that doesn’t involve countering Talonflame and therefore it still needs a ban.
Anyhow, a Suspect Test would be the best way of solving the solution. If OU Monotype isn’t an official enough tier to get its own suspect ladder on the Smogon server, does that mean it’s unofficial enough to be allowed a Frost ladder instead? It seems like a simple enough solution. Also, 1500 seems like a good level although the ladder does change over time, it may need to be changed in the future.
A Frost ladder may be a bit of a problem, however I think it’d solve more problems than it would cause. There are issues in terms of the management (for example Balto was banned in a controversial manner a while ago, Rors knows more about this) but the fact we’d have a good method of measuring how good a battler someone is before taking their votes would be good.
Redwolf people are going to be creative to get past things anyway, but Talon is particularly hard, compared to other things people find difficult. Aegis was brought up as a psychic counter, for example, and I suggested a few things such as EQ Metagross.
Spark Flight 17 I don’t suppose it’d be possible to edit your posts rather than posting multiple posts in a row? Thanks ^-^
Anyhow, a Suspect Test would be the best way of solving the solution. If OU Monotype isn’t an official enough tier to get its own suspect ladder on the Smogon server, does that mean it’s unofficial enough to be allowed a Frost ladder instead? It seems like a simple enough solution. Also, 1500 seems like a good level although the ladder does change over time, it may need to be changed in the future.
A Frost ladder may be a bit of a problem, however I think it’d solve more problems than it would cause. There are issues in terms of the management (for example Balto was banned in a controversial manner a while ago, Rors knows more about this) but the fact we’d have a good method of measuring how good a battler someone is before taking their votes would be good.
Redwolf people are going to be creative to get past things anyway, but Talon is particularly hard, compared to other things people find difficult. Aegis was brought up as a psychic counter, for example, and I suggested a few things such as EQ Metagross.
Spark Flight 17 I don’t suppose it’d be possible to edit your posts rather than posting multiple posts in a row? Thanks ^-^
Again we aren't even sure if a Monotype Ladder is allowed or not, so until then I think it's safe to stay on the topic. If Treecko were to approve this idea, it would be done here, as the Metagame we are discussing is Smogon University's Monotype Monotype Tier; Frost is an independent Server and can decide to or not to Ban Talonflame all on its own.
What! The point of my last post was to show you could stop talonflame while giving the team specific roles instead of threat specific and showing how multiple pokes can prevent over focusing on it, but you just completely throw that out the window and say " where the counters are less useful at anything that doesn’t involve countering Talonflame. " I really tried to emphasize that you didn't need to focus solely on it to counter it but you just completely ignore what I said and post that without atleast debunking or confronting my points. Sorry if it seems I'm over harsh but it just has happened multiple times in this thread and yours was the most ignorant case. cobalion + hitmontop is a great defensive combo and can be used for hazards/ParaFlinch + Spinner respectively. I literally laid out each of the uses for the bug types that dealt with talonflame and I'm not gonna re-type it. ~ Rorschach
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But Frost Follows what Official Monotype says. You can't just assume they will go independent and have a tier of their own. Frost is for monotype and its not gonna seperate itself from the main's monotype rules. Frost Staff Really try to be as official/formal as Main and similar to Main whenever it can so I think its a bit unfair to treat it like its a completely seperate Entity.
have to say, as a Flying user mainly, I don’t want Talonflame banned from a personal point of view, and I’m glad I’m starting to see some actual good arguments for why it shouldn’t be banned. However, I’m still not entirely convinced that it should be allowed to stay.
Quite a while ago, Treecko showed us a way grass could (kinda) counter Talonflame, assuming it’s spamming Brave Bird. This still leaves Fighting and Bug. Bug can run multiple rock-types, but this drastically limits its viability, and Talonflame still often leads to a Bug player who might otherwise have won despite the type advantage still losing due to having to be extremely careful about Talonflame.
As for the hitmontop + Occa Cobalion core, I'd like to see this core in use against, say, Focus Blast Alakazam, or even a decent Special Attacker that doesn't hit super effectively, like Nidoking. Sure, they may have a little use outside of countering Talonflame, but if two of your pokemon are there mostly for one possible opposing poke and they're not particularly viable outside of that, I don't see it working too well TBH...
Rorschach, you quite rightly say that Fire particularly likes Talonflame, and is generally a Hyper-offense team. This is true, although I think saying “it can’t run without Talonflame” is going a little far: It helps, but it isn’t absolutely necessary. Scarf Infernape and Espeed Entei, as mentioned, can help with the speed problem, and this is enough to run a usable hyper-offense team. I agree that a Talonflame ban may hit fire hard, but then it'll be getting Volcanion at some point in the future, which will allow it to function far better in a more ballanced playstyle, so it will be hit hard but perhaps only for a short time. On the other hand, I can see all three of the other types doing well without Talonflame around, as a well used team of any of the types can do well if used correctly, so long as there isn't a pokemon that is almost uncounterable and can happily come in, KO something, and switch out without losing giving the opponent a chance to KO back.
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First I'd like to say thank you for confronting my points. As for nidoking; hawlucha, AV hitmontop, Occa Cobalion take that on giving you the opportunity switch-in say infernape,lucario,terrakion and/or keldeo to threaten nidoking out, thats what teammates are for ^_^ and be fair at least nothing mono-fighting has beats focus blast mega alakazam. altho its pretty funny to know scrafty can take an f-blast from it. And no, HO fire cannot be made effectively w/out talonflame or even viable without major holes. Scarf Nape and E-Speed Entei can't carry the play style when a scarfed Surf Latios smothers both of the aforementioned. While thats rare, it is monotype and that's where rare things come to fruition. Unless you can rebuttal my points of HO Fire's dependence on TalonFlame I don't see how you can say its even possible. I also mentioned before its not TalonFlame's fault alone fighting, grass, bug have been underused. I've been adamant enough to post a near essay on how there is plenty of other factors and how banning talonflame is not its get out of jail free card. btw its Rorschach not Rorscharch nasty habit in this thread xD . I've tested the Cobalion + Hitmontop core aided by a few immunity teammates(hawlucha) in OU and its fine. Perhaps I used "core" loosely that was just a skeleton of one there's a whole other 4 slots to go with teammates in which you can play around and switch. When Volcanion comes out fire will be able to play a more stable balanced playstyle but you can't possibly be suggesting it go into a Dark Age. This is Here and Now, like how keldeo was suspected even though gen VI was about to come. Now I'm not denying TalonFlame doesn't put a tremendous amount of teambuilding pressure on the three types, I'm just saying its not the sole cause. Kyu-B for Flying?, Azumarill for ground, Landorus for steel, Scarf Terrak for fire, Mega Gardevoir for Dark, Kyu-B(Iron Head + E-Power / Fusion Bolt) / Bisharp for Fairy, and etc. Every Type has its bane in which it has trouble either Countering or Even Checking for that matter. TalonFlame has some methods of being trumped in all types its being solely accused of Oppressing. I don't want to be repetitive so I just ask that you read my post where I explained its not the sole blame. ~ Rorschach
I agree it's not the sole blame, however I do think that the types would be much more viable without it.
While Bug is usable right now, it is forced to run a number of rock types, and recently I've faced a number of bug teams on the ladder with my dragon team (which should do fairly badly against bug, I've got almost no SE moves for bug and both latis), I've found that having to have Talon counters limits how much offensive momentum they can carry, and while they would have to have flying counters in any case they are forced to go to great lengths to counter a single pokemon, which does make the teams seem directly weaker when facing other types. So yes, without Talonflame I do think that these types would be a reasonable amount more strong, enough so that they would offset the loss that Fire would get.
Sure there's things every team finds hard. Kyurem-B is perhaps one of the hardest for flying, but as it often doesn't carry Dragon Claw, Thundy-t can come in and Focus Blast after living anything but an Outrage, or if it locks itself into Outrage Togekiss or Skarmory can come in and gain an ungodly amount of momentum and perhaps paralyse it so that it can be destroyed next time it comes in.
Fire's beaten by Scarf Terrakion, but then again it's beaten by a fast, powerful edgequake user. Hence it has to run Hyper Offense, and I'd say even with Talon it can't properly check Scarf Terrakion.
The difference here, is that Talonflame is that exact pokemon for three whole teams, and it hugely limits teambuilding rather than simply causing them to include a single pokemon in the team.
I'm seeing your point a little, but I'm still a little unconvinced about the Hitmontop/Occa Cobalion core. It still seems a little weak to any good psychic special attack, and if the Occa is gone Talon will still get through the core fairly easily. How about Psychic Landorus? Still, Talon seems perhaps a little less OP against these types than I'd thought, which is good news for a Flying user like me.
As for your little thundy-t switching in thing just a little nickpick;
216 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 326-386 (108.6 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
even uninvested its a 50% chance to KO and according to the usage stats http://sweepercalc.com/stats/ its likely to be invested.
Ugh I'm really just waiting for word about the suspect test if any is going to happen. Hell we've kinda derailed to talking about other monotypes.
Hi everyone. Sorry that it has taken me so long to reply to this topic and come to a decision. As I'm sure you can all understand, deciding the fate of a Pokemon isn't something to be taken lightly. I've discussed my thoughts and listened to the thoughts of many individuals in this thread and on Showdown about Talonflame and the effects that it has on the metagame, and based on these things as well as my practical experience both using and facing it, I've come to a decision.
Let me preface this by saying that I realize no matchup, no matter how lopsided, is completely un-winnable. There are very strategic ways to overcome poor matchups, and that's one of the things that makes the Monotype metagame so exciting. The second that Mono-Dark is faced against Mono-Fighting, you know who is going to be favored to win, but it's still a matchup where either side can come out on top. The problem with Talonflame is that it takes already very lopsided matchups (Flying/Fire v. Bug/Grass) and makes them almost 100% guaranteed to end up in the Talonflame user's favor, and it takes another matchup (Fire v. Fighting) that should be fairly even and makes it considerably more lopsided for the Talonflame user.
Again, I realize that Talonflame doesn't mean that you auto-win in those particular matchups, and I understand that each of these types has its own way of beating it. As I pointed out earlier on in this thread, Mono-Grass can utilize Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn to rack up an insane amount of residual damage against Talonflame without even attacking it. But then what do you do against Swords Dance/Roost Talonflame? And then what do you do when you need to use Ferrothorn against something else before Talonflame even comes out? Most of the time, you simply lose. There is no surefire way to beat this one Pokemon on any of these team archetypes because, unlike other Pokemon in other matchups, you can't just run priority and hope for the best or run a Choice Scarf user and revenge kill it. A 120 Base Power STAB priority move with amazing neutral coverage is really good in standard OU, but when you go into a Monotype environment, some types have no reliable way of defending themselves against it.
Basically, without Talonflame in the metagame, Mono-Bug, Mono-Grass, and to an extent Mono-Fighting have more room to grow and prosper, while Mono-Flying will still be a fantastic type because of all of its amazing options and Mono-Fire will still be totally usable, particularly so if a lack of Talonflame causes Mono-Bug and Mono-Grass to rise in popularity. In order to promote more diversity in the metagame, Talonflame will be banned from OU Monotype.
Now that all of that is out of the way, I want to talk very briefly about suspects and bans in Monotype. If I feel uncomfortable making a decision on a certain suspect because I just don't know it well enough or I simply cannot come to a decision about it on my own, I will hold a vote with a council of users that I will determine sometime before the vote based on quality posts in this thread and knowledge and experience in the metagame as observed from the Showdown Monotype chat/Showdown ladder score. This is something that I'd like to reserve for very special circumstances. Holding an actual suspect test would simply be too difficult, particularly because this is an unofficial metagame, and a suspect ladder wouldn't see enough activity to be worthwhile.
For now, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on what the metagame will look like without Talonflame. How do you think Mono-Flying will do without it? Do you think this will give Mono-Bug, -Grass, and -Fighting some room to grow? Will the hit from Mono-Fire indirectly affect the other types? Let me know what you're thinking. Also feel free to post replays of your teams in this thread so that we can see the metagame in action! Please limit discussion on whether or not you thought the ban itself should have happened; I've had the chance to hear your opinions, and a decision has been made.
The ban should be on the PS server as soon as possible. Thanks everyone!
Let me preface this by saying that I realize no matchup, no matter how lopsided, is completely un-winnable. There are very strategic ways to overcome poor matchups, and that's one of the things that makes the Monotype metagame so exciting. The second that Mono-Dark is faced against Mono-Fighting, you know who is going to be favored to win, but it's still a matchup where either side can come out on top. The problem with Talonflame is that it takes already very lopsided matchups (Flying/Fire v. Bug/Grass) and makes them almost 100% guaranteed to end up in the Talonflame user's favor, and it takes another matchup (Fire v. Fighting) that should be fairly even and makes it considerably more lopsided for the Talonflame user.
Again, I realize that Talonflame doesn't mean that you auto-win in those particular matchups, and I understand that each of these types has its own way of beating it. As I pointed out earlier on in this thread, Mono-Grass can utilize Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn to rack up an insane amount of residual damage against Talonflame without even attacking it. But then what do you do against Swords Dance/Roost Talonflame? And then what do you do when you need to use Ferrothorn against something else before Talonflame even comes out? Most of the time, you simply lose. There is no surefire way to beat this one Pokemon on any of these team archetypes because, unlike other Pokemon in other matchups, you can't just run priority and hope for the best or run a Choice Scarf user and revenge kill it. A 120 Base Power STAB priority move with amazing neutral coverage is really good in standard OU, but when you go into a Monotype environment, some types have no reliable way of defending themselves against it.
Basically, without Talonflame in the metagame, Mono-Bug, Mono-Grass, and to an extent Mono-Fighting have more room to grow and prosper, while Mono-Flying will still be a fantastic type because of all of its amazing options and Mono-Fire will still be totally usable, particularly so if a lack of Talonflame causes Mono-Bug and Mono-Grass to rise in popularity. In order to promote more diversity in the metagame, Talonflame will be banned from OU Monotype.
Now that all of that is out of the way, I want to talk very briefly about suspects and bans in Monotype. If I feel uncomfortable making a decision on a certain suspect because I just don't know it well enough or I simply cannot come to a decision about it on my own, I will hold a vote with a council of users that I will determine sometime before the vote based on quality posts in this thread and knowledge and experience in the metagame as observed from the Showdown Monotype chat/Showdown ladder score. This is something that I'd like to reserve for very special circumstances. Holding an actual suspect test would simply be too difficult, particularly because this is an unofficial metagame, and a suspect ladder wouldn't see enough activity to be worthwhile.
For now, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on what the metagame will look like without Talonflame. How do you think Mono-Flying will do without it? Do you think this will give Mono-Bug, -Grass, and -Fighting some room to grow? Will the hit from Mono-Fire indirectly affect the other types? Let me know what you're thinking. Also feel free to post replays of your teams in this thread so that we can see the metagame in action! Please limit discussion on whether or not you thought the ban itself should have happened; I've had the chance to hear your opinions, and a decision has been made.
The ban should be on the PS server as soon as possible. Thanks everyone!
It wasn't Banned because it was OP, rather because it warped the Metagame to an extent that it made it unhealthy. And while you, from a Grass user perspective, don't feel that it deserves a Ban, other Mono users may not feel the same way.
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