Yeah you're right. I apologize for that. It's not really my place to correct people when I'm not a class act myself.
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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
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In case you didn't know, we actually don't really do official suspects in monotype. Someone says "I think this needs a nerf" and then everyone else takes a side, playtests it, and debates it without any official suspect ever being announced. The council then states what happens after their playtesting and looking at our opinions. So, uh, I wouldn't call it pathetic that we do stuff a bit different from tiers with huge active playerbases like OU that can actually host suspect ladders. At the end of the day we are still just an OM (albeit the best, most popular one ;o) that isn't an official tier.
Did you stop to consider that the people in charge probably have other things to do with their lives than constantly nominate suspects and check forums? Believe me, the people in charge are well aware that Smooth Rock is the most controversial element in Monotype right now and are deliberating over what action to take, if they believe that any is needed. You should be more considerate, as while I know waiting can be frustrating, if it leads to the right decision, it will all seem worth it afterwards. Take the Flying nerf for example, that took forever to decide, but I'd hope that the majority of people would say that in the end, the right decision was taken and that it's improved the metagame as a whole.
Noting the history of generation six, the ban of a non-mega stone item seems to be very unappealing to those in charge. I may very well be wrong, but it seems to be something that they dislike. I proposed Gravity as an absolute minimum in case my perceptions prove to be true.
I am actually in favor of a Landorus-I ban rather than a Smooth Rock ban. Landorus-I simply has more power as a straight out attacker than any Pokemon in Monotype needs to have, and is the source of Gravity selectively ending entire teams. Excadrill in and of itself is not broken. Excadrill with some of the premier wallbreakers and one of the premier special attackers of the tier is.
While one may say that Nidoking would replace Landorus-I, there's one sorry truth that I have to share with that person. Nidoking is not Landorus-I. It is not immune to earthquake. It is not as powerful. It does not have the A class speed tier of base 101. It does not have Gravity. The two possible paths that I can perceive for a Ground nerf are either a Smooth Rock ban or a Landorus-I ban. A Smooth Rock ban will easily change the entire way that Ground functions, just as the Damp Rock ban did to Water. Considering just Water, how popular was Swift Swim vs. non-Swift Swim pre-ban for Damp Rock? How drastic was the change caused by this ban? It was an incredible blow to a standard strategy, causing massive change to how that type worked. It was also essentially unavoidable. A Landorus-I ban avoids this same situation by leaving the strategy intact, but giving a hard hit to one side of the strategy's offense. Such a ban could possibly push Ground back down from being simply overpowered to being powerful.
As a side note, I would have preferred for Greninja to stay on Dark instead of Mega-Sableye for this very reason. Greninja helped to keep Ground from getting out of hand by being on Dark. Water did not need it to do so, but having an additional type capable of suppressing Ground is a contributor to why it was not considered overpowered before the ban in question. While I'm not calling for Greninja to be unbanned now, I can see its return to only Dark being somewhat beneficial to the metagame at the price of Mega-Sableye (which can, in some matchups, warp the entire game around it to a horrendous degree). (I'm aware that Greninja did the same.)
Because, like i said before, Smooth Rock gives you 8 turns, that's ok, we've all understood it was big but now, you've only one Sand Rush sweeper (and M-Garchomp Sand Force) who are good under the sandstorm.
Now, for Damp Rock, you have: Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, M-Swampert, Omastar, Mantine, Seismitoad, hydratations Manaphy and Vaporeon (both are cancer).
Now, you can compare both rocks with Pokemons who have a good ability under the wear.
It isn't the same. Ground doesn't have the same diversity as Water.
This is why ban Smooth Rock is useless and i gave you all counter Excadrill can have, so i don't understand why people want ban it...
If it was broken, it would have suspected 18months ago and not now...
OmniaX: Like i've said before, stats aren't completely believable because stats are done with beginners against experimented too and for this reason, you can play Excadrill Special sweeper, you'll win.
So yeah, ground is a very good type, but it always has been it.
IT's crazy that people start to notice it now. The only difference than before last ban, is Ground can't be counter only by Greninja.
Meta still the same for Ground next...
For the comment if Bibarel about "ban smooth rock will give more diversity for ground".
Do you really thing that Smooth Rock is banned, i won't play Excadrill?
Really, be serious, Ground generic is good because, like flying, they have good cores.
Especially Hippo-Gastro who can tank easily physical and special sweepers and next send the right Pokemon to counter the opponent.
Mullin: Greninja was banned for: Dragon, Ground, Flying types mainly, not only for Ground.
M-Metagross was banned mainly for Fairy type.
Not only for ground like you say.
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The reason very few items outside of mega stones are banned is that very few items outside of mega stones need to be banned. Soul Dew is obviously broken on any competitive set that would use it, so is banned. Damp Rock was broken on water, so was banned. And right now I'd argue that Smooth Rock is broken on Ground, so needs a ban there.
Water's Swift Swim stratagy is very rarely seen nowadays, but I don't see that as a bad thing. It's still a viable stratagy, despite not getting 8 turns of rain, which is what the damp rock ban hoped to preserve. And a smooth rock ban certainly wouldn't stop excadrill from being used on ground, so I don't really see what the point you're making there is.
The case for a Landorus-I ban is actually pretty strong, and I think the main reason that smooth rock is being looked at instead is that excadrill is far more of an obvious threat: while people know Landorus-I is strong, they often find ways to deal with it whereas exca's 8 turns of doubled speed is the obvious thing to find difficult to deal with. Because of this I think it's smooth rock we should be looking at instead of Landorus-I.
My issue is that it is easier for someone to simply adress the issue and simply say that they are not going to do anything about it at the moment. I do realize everyone has more important things to do at the same time I think this topic has gone on long enough with no clear outcome. I don't feel like stating anything that has been said by others at this point.
I wasn't trying to say it was banned for ground just noting that once the bans happened I realized how big of a threat exadrill was in the sand with nothing to out speed.(also please don't take this as I want gren back)
For those of you that think Sand Rush will be nerfed beyond usability if Smooth Rock is banned, here's some food for thought: Eject Button Hippowdon.
It's a set I've been using on Politoed on Water and it works incredibly well. With the shortened number of turns that the weather is active, you want to get your weather abuser in as quickly as possible, but you want to avoid switching it into a move that could OHKO it, or at least severely damage it. With Eject Button, if your opponent attacks the weather setter, you get to set up the weather and switch directly into your Swift Swimmer/Sand Rusher without losing momentum. That sweeper now has roughly 4 turns to abuse its ability (possibly 5 turns if you're good at predicting when to switch the weather setter in). Excadrill can still do a lot with 4 turns if it safely gets on the field, which is exactly why Eject Button is such a nice option.
If Smooth Rock is banned, I would imagine leftovers would become the most common item on Hippowdon, but I'm going to predict that Eject Button would get a big spike in usage as well.
It's a set I've been using on Politoed on Water and it works incredibly well. With the shortened number of turns that the weather is active, you want to get your weather abuser in as quickly as possible, but you want to avoid switching it into a move that could OHKO it, or at least severely damage it. With Eject Button, if your opponent attacks the weather setter, you get to set up the weather and switch directly into your Swift Swimmer/Sand Rusher without losing momentum. That sweeper now has roughly 4 turns to abuse its ability (possibly 5 turns if you're good at predicting when to switch the weather setter in). Excadrill can still do a lot with 4 turns if it safely gets on the field, which is exactly why Eject Button is such a nice option.
If Smooth Rock is banned, I would imagine leftovers would become the most common item on Hippowdon, but I'm going to predict that Eject Button would get a big spike in usage as well.
Ok guys let's ban every pokemon that has the capability to kill more than one pokemon of the opposing team!!!
In seriousness.. in chess you need to sacrifice things in order to win, same thing with pokemon whenever i'm tutoring or giving advice one of the main things i say is: If you 6-0 someone you're doing something wrong. You're making a ton of high risk/low reward plays in which you could lose. When you're making those bad plays its only then will excadrill be able to sweep you. You may have to sack a pokemon but afterwards you can make your offensive maneuver in order to kill the threats to your team. Of course now you can make the argument that they can just switch excadrill out, Well thats what makes competetive pokemon as much fun as it is to me. Double switching! The entirety of the game is 10% teambuilding 89% predicts and 1%RNG:(. You need to play in order to win.
Fighting against excadrill is no different then fighting against a huge number of other threats, if you sit there and just click buttons you'll lose, but if you PLAY you can beat the "threat".
Thanks in advance for choosing to NOT ban smooth rock!!!!
In seriousness.. in chess you need to sacrifice things in order to win, same thing with pokemon whenever i'm tutoring or giving advice one of the main things i say is: If you 6-0 someone you're doing something wrong. You're making a ton of high risk/low reward plays in which you could lose. When you're making those bad plays its only then will excadrill be able to sweep you. You may have to sack a pokemon but afterwards you can make your offensive maneuver in order to kill the threats to your team. Of course now you can make the argument that they can just switch excadrill out, Well thats what makes competetive pokemon as much fun as it is to me. Double switching! The entirety of the game is 10% teambuilding 89% predicts and 1%RNG:(. You need to play in order to win.
Fighting against excadrill is no different then fighting against a huge number of other threats, if you sit there and just click buttons you'll lose, but if you PLAY you can beat the "threat".
Thanks in advance for choosing to NOT ban smooth rock!!!!
This will probably come off with some bias, but you're ignoring the difference between Excadrill and several other sweeepers; you can't just say "if you PLAY you can beat the 'threat'". SEVERAL monotypes can "PLAY" to beat Excadrill and still have a frustratingly hard time taking it down if at all. Unlike other sweepers, Excadrill outspeeds most anything, even most scarfers, and so there are several types that can't even revenge it. Yes, I can use Rock Monotype, and Yes, I can beat Excadrill if I play well, but no matter what, the game will still be incredibly in the Excadrill user's favor. Rock, Ice, Fairy, Ghost, tell me how they are supposed to "PLAY" around Excadrill. It's just not that simple.
As it stands, at least in my opinion, you can't ignore the relative ease that Ground Monotypes have atm with destroying other types with Excadrill + its support in Landorus-I, Hippowdon, etc. There's a reason why most Ground teams stick to the same 6 Pokemon, it's too damn effective.
What is Politoed's pre-ban usage as compared to it's post-ban usage? And what is Swift Swim usage considering that not every team a Politoed is on has to be Swift Swim? Right now Politoed is at 36.94% with a core challenge included. Looking at the previous month, it is at 19.88%. This means that less than that percentage of all Water teams abused rain with Swift Swim in March.
So considering that Politoed doesn't mean that the team abused Swift Swim, what else might hint at it's usage? In this case, Ludicolo, the most popular pokemon to primarily use Swift Swim, with a March usage of 10.60%, and only 83.8% were Swift Swim. The Swift Swim Ludicolo usage on all Water teams was actually about 8.883%. Rain Dance Swampert holding Swampertite was only 16.531% of all Swampert when calculated, and this is considering that Swampert may just use Rain Dance as a self-contained strategy rather than as a team-wide strategy. Applying these both separately to Water's March usage, 1.542% of the metagame had Rain Dance Swampert, and 0.828% of the March metagame had Swift Swim Ludicolo.
Water is still capable of using Swift Swim, yes, but consider this: How much more flexible is Water than Ground? How much does that flexibility help it to cope with the loss of Damp Rock? How much better is rain for Water types than sand for Ground types? Considering that Water gets significantly more effect out of Rain and is significantly more flexible than ground, and considering that the drop in Swift Swim usage (despite these two factors) was massive, how much drop in usage you think a Smooth Rock ban would cause to Ground's sand-based strategy? All of these things considered, I can't consider a strategy with Ice-esque usage (when not boosted by a core challenge) in the meta to be a good example of what we want for Ground.
I main Ground, and Excadrill does not 6-0. It cleans teams up in the late game, and revenge kills. Excadrill itself is not actually the problem. The problem is that Ground is supplied with the best ways to break the walls standing between it and that clean-up. Landorus-I is the most notable of the offensive support given to Excadrill, and taking it away would open up a hole in the strategy that would require additional resources to fill. Landorus-I not only breaks physical walls with its absurd unboosted power while still remaining difficult for some special walls to swap into, it also has an amazing base 101 speed and decent coverage to match its raw power. This means that it can fulfill certain revenge-killing roles when we don't feel comfortable using Excadrill to do so, such as against Mega-Medicham with a Slowbro in the back.
Landorus-I may not stand out the most because it is not the center of the strategy. Zapdos was not the center of flying's strategy either, and it got banned despite not even being Flying's bulkiest special wall. If the goal is to bring some degree of balance to Ground like what was done with Flying, doing immense damage to the core strategy of the type is certainly not the way to go about it. Reducing that strategy to manageable levels is much more sensible.
I never said swift swim got good usage after the ban. In fact I said the exact opposite. But swift swim remains viable to some extent, so the ban worked well.
Moreover, water doesn't need swift swim to be viable in order for it to be flexible or competitive. I ran a bulky offensive water team for a while, utilising cloyster, gyarados, manaphy, azumarill and a few others. It wasn't the best ever team, but it was certainly viable, and given I rarely use water I'd say water has more options than the vast majority of teams despite not being able to run damp rock.
Nobody is saying Excadrill 6-0s, except in extreme cases. Nobody is saying Excadrill itself is the problem. Landorus-I is strong, so is Excadrill with 8 turns of sand. I don't think the fact that it doesn't sweep 100% of the time means it can't be considered for a ban. After all, zapdos wasn't broken, yet its ban has helped the metagame hugely. I agree that Landorus-I is a strong pokemon, and should be considered alongside as smooth rock for a ban. However, current opinion is that a smooth rock ban would be better, and I can honestly find little reason to argue with this. I certainly haven't seen a concrete reason to say that Excadrill shouldn't be considered for a ban, and doubt I will.
tl;dr yeah Exca's not broken but smooth rock ban's still the best option, and the lack of swift swim water teams is irrelevant.
I completely agree with your point, and what I'm about to say is really just nitpicking, but Excadrill is part of the reason I still run Gourgeist on Ghost. Gourgeist is a hard wall to Excadrill and I don't think I would be any good with Ghost if I didn't use the pumpkin.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 75-90 (20 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 121-144 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Switch it in on an Earthquake and Gourgeist can burn Exca with Will-O-Wisp as long as it doesn't get any flinch hax from Iron Head. Cofagrigus can survive 2 Earthquakes from LO Excadrill as well. Cofa is more of a check than a counter, but I'd argue Gourgeist is a hard counter.
Again, I'm just nitpicking at this point and I do agree with your argument. Rock (except for those rare teams with Mega Aggron), Ice, and Fairy are all pretty much screwed when facing an Excadrill in the sand, but Ghost doesn't need to worry about it too much.
Fairy can counter Ground...
2 ways:
- Azumarill Belly Drum can sweep ground and so excadrill.
- Gardevoir Scarf can counter Excadrill too, how? Scarf + Trace → Outspeed Excadrill → Focus Blast OHKO.
In my opinion, Ground is better than Fairy but we can't say it's an automatic win for ground.
Fairy can counter Ground well...
For Ice, it's the same thing than Fairy in my opinion.
Rock and Electric are only type when they face Ground, is, the most of time, an automatic lose.
2 ways:
- Azumarill Belly Drum can sweep ground and so excadrill.
- Gardevoir Scarf can counter Excadrill too, how? Scarf + Trace → Outspeed Excadrill → Focus Blast OHKO.
In my opinion, Ground is better than Fairy but we can't say it's an automatic win for ground.
Fairy can counter Ground well...
For Ice, it's the same thing than Fairy in my opinion.
Rock and Electric are only type when they face Ground, is, the most of time, an automatic lose.
Forget who I'm responding to, but whoever mentioned Eject Button Hippowdon:
The main reason Eject Button is used on Politoed is because it's frail and it struggles to keep rain on the field long enough for other Pokemon to come in. Eject Button speeds up the pace of the game and allows the rain to be used more effectively without wasting turns.
I don't think this would work as well for Hippowdon because contrarily to Politoed, Hippowdon has amazing bulk and is an extremely reliable Pokemon in general, not to mention it also has reliable recovery. This lets it easily re-set sand numerous times rather than Politoed that struggles to both set rain and stay alive. Because of this I think leftovers would be the better item most of the time.
The main reason Eject Button is used on Politoed is because it's frail and it struggles to keep rain on the field long enough for other Pokemon to come in. Eject Button speeds up the pace of the game and allows the rain to be used more effectively without wasting turns.
I don't think this would work as well for Hippowdon because contrarily to Politoed, Hippowdon has amazing bulk and is an extremely reliable Pokemon in general, not to mention it also has reliable recovery. This lets it easily re-set sand numerous times rather than Politoed that struggles to both set rain and stay alive. Because of this I think leftovers would be the better item most of the time.
While Gardevoir can potentially revenge kill Excadrill, it usually isn't the case. Ignoring the fact that Focus Blast is always very bad to rely on due to its accuracy, Ground has an unlimited amount of switch ins to Gardevoir's Focus Blast (Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Landorus..) and if the Ground user wants to play safe, Mixed Hippowdon or Gastrodon will always avoid the 2HKO from Gardevoir's Moonblast if it decides to predict and go for that. In the end the fairy user is almost forced to use Focus Blast at that point, so the Ground user can easily take advanage of that.
In regards to Azumarill, it is one of the biggest threats to Ground yes, but any good Ground user will never give it a chance to set up; if it comes in on a weak Landorus or Excadrill or Garchomp, their best play is to stay in and attack it. If it happens to go for belly drum on this, then their only chance of winning is gone. Unless the Ground user switches out, Azumarill struggles to Belly Drum because of how powerful the aforementioned Pokemon are. In the end, Fairy has one win-button play of setting up screens and setting up Belly Drum as their only way of winning, and more often than not it will not work.
A well built Ground team gives no chances for Azu to set up, it's for that exact reason I run Clear Smog and enough bulk to avoid a 2HKO from an Adamant unboosted Play Rough on Gastro. You just sit there spamming Clear Smog at which point they'll have either switched out or KOed you, taking 2 Clear Smogs in the process and been whittled. Also anyone who's played this matchup knows the key is not to let Megachomp take any prior damage whatsoever, as it actually survives a +6 Aqua Jet comfortably and can retaliate back with a huge Earthquake, especially if it's in sand. There is definitely a way of playing around this threat, it just takes know how.
Ok, now that I got better arguments, lemmie touch up on this topic again. So since yesterday, I've laddered with a non-smooth rock team under the alt SmoothRock smh. Out of all the battles I had, I've only lost once, due to keldeo 1 turn wake up, otherwise I would of beaten a water team. But before that, I managed to go 21-0 within 2 days, nearing 1500. What's the point of doing that? My point is, for those crying smooth rock needs to be banned to nerf excadrill, that's not gonna help a whole ton, and then your gonna complain about banning hippo or exca entirely. If you want full arguments, I'd look at firnen's old post where he took the time to go in detail with each type. You also need to consider this, banning excadrill completely would be ridiculous. Ground does not have a lot against grass, water, and namely ice team's in excadrill's case. If exca is taken away completely, gg ice, now you have no chance once so ever. Water, that's already a bad matchup for ground, with exca gone, expect manaphy to kick ground's ass way more often. Grass, Megasaur is a big threat, exca is one of a handful of pokes that can wallbreak it, and not be 2ko'd be giga drain, and proceed to kill it. As I said earlier, exca is by no means impossible to wall. If your gonna make the argument about gravity and exca brekaing those walls to, well, talk about gravity instead then, or lando i. I feel like right now there are types that need some things to play around with, to actually be usable in the metagame, especially ice. I'd rather talk about that instead over banning exca, who I feel is fine where it is in the metagame.
Even though personal ladder experiences shouldn't be representative of the effectiveness of a type and shouldn't really be used to justify whether something should be banned or not, If I were to humor your post you have just said "I just did really well this type and even nearly beat my own weakness, this obviously means its not too good and we shouldn't touch it, let's help other types instead"
I'm just confused
I read it as, Smooth Rock will do nothing. And banning exca and hippo is too harsh. So, let's ban something on the defensive core like we did with flying so it's harder to get exca in safely.
Are there any replays that would be good to share? While 1500 is getting to a decent level, if 18 of the 21 games were low-ladder then it's not particularly impressive. A few good replays demonstrating how ground is still strong even without smooth rock would probably go a lot further in helping your point, I think.
I was talking about this yesterday morning and I realized after all my protesting in suspecting Smooth Rock, it will NOT affect Ground as much as we think it will.
Ground-types have been used more often because of the recent bans from Flying and Steel let's take a look at each of the Pokemon provide an excellent role in being the perfect team. The way you build the team, yes I agree with Freeroamer because I did deal with them with Belly Drum Azumarill a month ago with Fairy. Btw I feel sorry for anybody who uses Fairy against Ground as well.
In dealing with Ground, Hippodown is one of the most annoying Pokemon I ever had to deal with besides Excadrill and Landorus. Passive when it comes to Hippoodown. Stealth Rocks and Sandstream is all about passive. Toxic for stalling and yes, it is all about passive. Using Whirlwind to get rid of sweepers and phaze the next Pokemon for damage from Sandstorm and Stealth Rocks, it's all about passive. Knocking off Focus Sash users, it is all about passive. Switching in to continue Sandstorm and also having Rocky Helmet to punish physical attackers? Oh yes definitely, it is just all about passive damage when it comes to that thing. Hippodown is very bulky, both physically and specially and can get very annoying to take down because it also has Slack Off, which some would have to resort to crippling it with Toxic, setting a timer on it. That is a good idea from Acast suggestion on Ejection Button as well, but I don't think that some people would miss out on Leftovers recovery with Slack Off. Though it is a pretty neat item to use.
Excadrill....Oh how I hate your Sand Rush and Choice Band. With that, it can pretty much 2HKO one of the most popular physical walls in the metagame, but you know, by then they'll have taken Stealth Rock damage that Hippo has laid out. This thing can practically sweep Fairy-types with the right build, as I myself has been through it. It can get rid of Ice-types as well, along with Fire-types easily. Excadrill can really take advantage of Gravity from Landorus and become the most perfect sweeper for Ground Monotype, wallbreaking the majority of the types early-, mid-, or late-game.
Landorus-I Also hate this thing as well as I saw Gravity is being used now. Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus-I is very powerful. It has a nice offensive movepool in checking Fairy- and Grass-types with Sludge Wave, Hitting Steel-, Rock-, Poison-, and Fire-types with STAB Earth Power, Focus Blast for dealing with Normal- and Dark-types such as Chansey, Porygon-2, and Hydregion, Psychic handles Fighting-types, and Hidden Power whatever is used. I think Ice was used the most I don't remember.
I really don't want to go in depth with this analyses on Ground. Gastrodon stops Water-types in their place. Mega Garchomp hits super hard because of Sand Force, and even without its Mega, Garchomp is still a hard hitter, and Mamoswine just cripples threats with Knock Off, giving you the edge. I realized how lazy I gotten so I just summed it up for the rest of the more common Pokemon being used. u_u
Ground-types have been used more often because of the recent bans from Flying and Steel let's take a look at each of the Pokemon provide an excellent role in being the perfect team. The way you build the team, yes I agree with Freeroamer because I did deal with them with Belly Drum Azumarill a month ago with Fairy. Btw I feel sorry for anybody who uses Fairy against Ground as well.
In dealing with Ground, Hippodown is one of the most annoying Pokemon I ever had to deal with besides Excadrill and Landorus. Passive when it comes to Hippoodown. Stealth Rocks and Sandstream is all about passive. Toxic for stalling and yes, it is all about passive. Using Whirlwind to get rid of sweepers and phaze the next Pokemon for damage from Sandstorm and Stealth Rocks, it's all about passive. Knocking off Focus Sash users, it is all about passive. Switching in to continue Sandstorm and also having Rocky Helmet to punish physical attackers? Oh yes definitely, it is just all about passive damage when it comes to that thing. Hippodown is very bulky, both physically and specially and can get very annoying to take down because it also has Slack Off, which some would have to resort to crippling it with Toxic, setting a timer on it. That is a good idea from Acast suggestion on Ejection Button as well, but I don't think that some people would miss out on Leftovers recovery with Slack Off. Though it is a pretty neat item to use.
Excadrill....Oh how I hate your Sand Rush and Choice Band. With that, it can pretty much 2HKO one of the most popular physical walls in the metagame, but you know, by then they'll have taken Stealth Rock damage that Hippo has laid out. This thing can practically sweep Fairy-types with the right build, as I myself has been through it. It can get rid of Ice-types as well, along with Fire-types easily. Excadrill can really take advantage of Gravity from Landorus and become the most perfect sweeper for Ground Monotype, wallbreaking the majority of the types early-, mid-, or late-game.
Landorus-I Also hate this thing as well as I saw Gravity is being used now. Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus-I is very powerful. It has a nice offensive movepool in checking Fairy- and Grass-types with Sludge Wave, Hitting Steel-, Rock-, Poison-, and Fire-types with STAB Earth Power, Focus Blast for dealing with Normal- and Dark-types such as Chansey, Porygon-2, and Hydregion, Psychic handles Fighting-types, and Hidden Power whatever is used. I think Ice was used the most I don't remember.
I really don't want to go in depth with this analyses on Ground. Gastrodon stops Water-types in their place. Mega Garchomp hits super hard because of Sand Force, and even without its Mega, Garchomp is still a hard hitter, and Mamoswine just cripples threats with Knock Off, giving you the edge. I realized how lazy I gotten so I just summed it up for the rest of the more common Pokemon being used. u_u
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Can I say that 3 extra turns of sand aren't what make Sand Rush overpowered? If an excadrill can sweep your team in 6 turns of sand, he's gonna dent half of your team in 3 turns just as easily. From there, the rest of the sand squad can clean up, or more sand can be added for an additional 3 turns of exca carnage. Smooth rock doesn't eliminate the problem, it doesn't help it, the fact remains that sand rush is going to do work for the ground monotypes.
Ground with smooth rock has always existed it's just that with recent bans on flying and removal of kyurem w and skymin and smogfrog , ground has become a very solid type to use as it ensures a very solid build with great walls like mixed hippo, gastrodon, gliscor, swampert , seismtoad and too an extent even bulky chomp can be utilised very effectively with their amazing offense in the form mega camel, LANDORUS I excadrill garchomp/mega and even gliscor can pull of acro scor or bpass making it a legitimate threat vs slower bulky teams with taunt. All these factors if used well make ground a very solid type which is not outright beaten by any types as it has work arounds (namely excadrill with its amazing typing and lando I due to reasons I will explain) as well as access to amazing mixed sweepers like mega chomp and LANDORUS I whom can pressure even the bulkiest of teams trouble. The issue is more complex and hence I will take a more detailed look on certain mons whom define or are omnipresent on the multitude of ground teams
Landorus incarnate: lando I is an amazing pokeMon whom is blessed with the coveted sheer force ability which boosts it's attacks that have secondary effects while at the same time negating life orb damage. This coupled with with access to just the right combination of moves both 9th ensign and supportive make Landorus a threat to be reckoned with. It's signature LO 4 attacks sey can cripple teams which do not have a definitive switch in (none really do as it's coverage is the deciding factor whether or not you can switch in) with Landorus I feel that it is something akin to smogburd as it singlehandedly demolishes steel rock fire poison and is giving fairy fighting flying(with gravity) grass ice and bug a tough time. The only "safe" types are bulky normal,psychic and water teams as they have dedicated walls that can take this thing on but even normal may struggle if it runs knock off if chase is 4hp.psychic has the closest thing to a counter in cresselia but some cm + gravity set can beat that also. The issue with Landorus I that should be clear, it takes amazing poke Mon and throws them OTT as it's mere presence can keep opponents on their toes as if they don't know the whole set they can be on a back foot for the longest of the as they are worried can I take out the lando? Apart from all this, Landorus can actually live a neutral hit and retaliate. It also has a troll freak classic of 101 base speed making it hard to out speed as most base 100 mons are kod. TO PUT THIS BLUNTLY BAN THIS MOFO IT CURES FAIRY OF IT'S CANCER WHILST BECOMING A MEGA BRO OR NINJA OR MARINE OR WHATEVER OTHER BROKEN SHIT
Sand rush(excadrill) + Smooth rock (hippodown)
Excadrill is an amazing pokeMon for ground whom gives it a strong offensive pokeMon which has bulk and can give ground a fighting chance vs a multitude of types and makes ground an over all great type to choose. It's ability sand rush doubles speed which allows excadrill to be a threatening sweeper whom can rear apart teams if they are unprepared. Now this applies to so many sweepers that it doesn't inherently make excadrill borked, but pair it with the ability to go.adamant to reach an astounding 405 attack which is boosted by CB and backed by stellar bulk and typing makes excadrill a formidable foe for anything not named skarmory. Despite all this, I feel that drill is what allows ground to stay competitively alive without throwing it overboard as without it mega venu and ice roflstomped ground as well as fairy due to set up cancer that doctors still are unable to cure. Not only this, drill gives ground much needed offense as it forms an amazing core with chomp lando I and maybe even gliscor. This I feel that drill should NOT BE BANNED AND STAY FOR THE TIME BEING.
Hippo: not much to say gr8 wall sets up sand and Sr well acts as a nice pivot is good support
Tl;Dr
BAN LANDORUS INCARNATE IT'S NEW.GRENIMJA AND what not
Keep sand give time for meta after ban then take a call
Landorus incarnate: lando I is an amazing pokeMon whom is blessed with the coveted sheer force ability which boosts it's attacks that have secondary effects while at the same time negating life orb damage. This coupled with with access to just the right combination of moves both 9th ensign and supportive make Landorus a threat to be reckoned with. It's signature LO 4 attacks sey can cripple teams which do not have a definitive switch in (none really do as it's coverage is the deciding factor whether or not you can switch in) with Landorus I feel that it is something akin to smogburd as it singlehandedly demolishes steel rock fire poison and is giving fairy fighting flying(with gravity) grass ice and bug a tough time. The only "safe" types are bulky normal,psychic and water teams as they have dedicated walls that can take this thing on but even normal may struggle if it runs knock off if chase is 4hp.psychic has the closest thing to a counter in cresselia but some cm + gravity set can beat that also. The issue with Landorus I that should be clear, it takes amazing poke Mon and throws them OTT as it's mere presence can keep opponents on their toes as if they don't know the whole set they can be on a back foot for the longest of the as they are worried can I take out the lando? Apart from all this, Landorus can actually live a neutral hit and retaliate. It also has a troll freak classic of 101 base speed making it hard to out speed as most base 100 mons are kod. TO PUT THIS BLUNTLY BAN THIS MOFO IT CURES FAIRY OF IT'S CANCER WHILST BECOMING A MEGA BRO OR NINJA OR MARINE OR WHATEVER OTHER BROKEN SHIT
Sand rush(excadrill) + Smooth rock (hippodown)
Excadrill is an amazing pokeMon for ground whom gives it a strong offensive pokeMon which has bulk and can give ground a fighting chance vs a multitude of types and makes ground an over all great type to choose. It's ability sand rush doubles speed which allows excadrill to be a threatening sweeper whom can rear apart teams if they are unprepared. Now this applies to so many sweepers that it doesn't inherently make excadrill borked, but pair it with the ability to go.adamant to reach an astounding 405 attack which is boosted by CB and backed by stellar bulk and typing makes excadrill a formidable foe for anything not named skarmory. Despite all this, I feel that drill is what allows ground to stay competitively alive without throwing it overboard as without it mega venu and ice roflstomped ground as well as fairy due to set up cancer that doctors still are unable to cure. Not only this, drill gives ground much needed offense as it forms an amazing core with chomp lando I and maybe even gliscor. This I feel that drill should NOT BE BANNED AND STAY FOR THE TIME BEING.
Hippo: not much to say gr8 wall sets up sand and Sr well acts as a nice pivot is good support
Tl;Dr
BAN LANDORUS INCARNATE IT'S NEW.GRENIMJA AND what not
Keep sand give time for meta after ban then take a call
- Status