Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
^ lol I was gonna write up a whole thing but it looks like i got sniped twice. I will add that 95 base SpA when boosted with an item (life orb usually for Raichu) isn't exactly weak. You are ignoring the fact that Raichu gets STAB psychic attacks (unique on the electric team), and if it's going to be in play during electric terrain, it will have terrain-boosted electric attacks as well (on top of Life Orb).
I understand that running Mega-Gyarados prevents the usage of Mega-Sharpedo/Mega-Slowbro, and that missing out on them is a huge deal. However, when you're team building, you usually start with your Mega and go from there. You usually don't have 5 Pokemon picked out and then have to decide between which Water-Mega you want. I'd like to hear what you guys think about this, because I could honestly be swayed either way of Mega-Gyarados staying at B or moving up to A.
The thing with Mega-Gyarados is that when choosing a mega for your team, it is outclassed defensively by Mega-Slowbro (both in stats and boosting capabilities), and offensively Mega-Sharpedo is more useful in some key matchups. Greninja having the same type isn't a problem anymore as most of them will be running Protean. I would say while Mega-Gyara isn't exactly a key pokemon to have like the A-ranks (who all bring something unique and very useful to the water team), it is definitely better than most/all of the B-ranks. However, the opportunity cost of no other megas makes it a solid B-rank in my book, at least while Mega-Slowbro is still allowed.
Electric
Alola-Raichu S->B: The reason I am suggesting it is because it does not have enough offense nor defense that can be useful. Surge surfer is a great ability, however in order to make it function properly a terrain extender on Tapu Koko would be necessary, hindering the arguably best electric type pokemon's ability to become an offensive pivot or sweeper. The offensive potential alola raichu can provide is also limited. With an under average 95 base Spa that 20 other usable electric pokemon laugh at, it does not do a great job overall against BO, balanced or stall. It's moveset also isn't so great, as its two main coverage moves, focus blast and surf, are not so useful for an electric team, and the last move grass knot has an unstable bp which can only hit hard against certain pokemon. The HO playstyle Alola-Raichu is good at isn't a major playstyle that electric uses since the type does not have enough pokemon to do so. Even the speed Alola-Raichu get isn't so great considering the fact that electric types usually have above average speed that when scarfed are usually quicker than other scarfs. By the down side, a trace can make your foe outspeed all your scarfs, which can be threatening.
252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt in Electric Terrain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO
---
252 Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake in Sandstorm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO (does more but just to compare how close it is)
252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt in Electric Terrain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO
---
252 Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake in Sandstorm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO (does more but just to compare how close it is)
I'm not sure that anyone gets the idea man, 252+ mew is unviable. It either runs 16 spe (ada 70), 108 spe (jolly 70), or 208 spe (unboosted gyara). I'm not sure what I'm supposed to gather from this post, all it looks like is that you posted a bunch of flawed calcs that don't exactly prove or disprove anything.
edit answering below: okay i get that, but mew doesn't use any of those spreads. At least to me, they're still irrelevant. not to mention exca usually uses ada.
I'm not sure that anyone gets the idea man, 252+ mew is unviable. It either runs 16 spe (ada 70), 108 spe (jolly 70), or 208 spe (unboosted gyara). I'm not sure what I'm supposed to gather from this post, all it looks like is that you posted a bunch of flawed calcs that don't exactly prove or disprove anything.
these calcs are supposed to show Alolan-Raichu's potential in terms of raw power compared to some other incredibly strong wallbreakers. As Declarity said in his post, he said 'using mew just to test calcs'.
edit at above: ... mew is just used as a blanket example of damage output. he could've chosen to pick a max hp arceus-normal instead of that too, or any base 100-across-the-board pokemon that would be neutral to all those attacks too. you're missing the point completely. it's not about the mew set because it's completely irrelevant.
I disagree with this. Bewear is not only a good wincon vs Steel when paired with Diggersby (which is a tedious matchup for Normal) but is an amazing Pokemon by itself that functions as an extremely bulky physical pivot. On your Celesteela thing, you should have opened a damage calculator since Celesteela doesn't "easily KO" Bewear at all.
252+ SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bewear: 142-168 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.9% chance to 3HKO (After running some calcs, it seems that Fluffy is not being implemented correctly in the damage calculator. Bewear still lives a 252 Modest Flamethrower from Celesteela and proceeds to heavily dent it with Thunder Punch.)
Rock vs Normal is definitely NOT the only matchup it has some use on. Are you saying it is literally useless on all 17 other matchups? Again, Bewear is one of the bulkiest pivots in the entire game, and also one of the best wallbreakers Normal has. Its offensive movepool, which is VERY colorful, allow it to be a factor in MANY matchups, most notably Ice, Flying, Ground, Rock, Steel, Dragon, Normal, Dark, Grass, and a few others I am forgetting. The combination of STAB Return and Superpower plus coverage such as Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Earthquake, and Rock Slide all make this possible.
I'm not sure why you only mentioned ONE matchup in Steel (one that it's a very good wincon in. not sure why that's not true just because of Heatran.) when it shines so much in so many matchups. The Diggersby comparison does not do it justice, they play much different roles and it is perfectly viable and recommended to use both. As a point you also basically said "it is weak to types that are super effective against it like psychic, flying (lol), and water. You specifically mention Toxapex on water which is 2HKOed by Thunder Punch. On Flying, it threatens a LOT of Pokemon such as Landorus-T, Dragonite, Skarmory, Mantine, and some Celesteela builds.
TLDR - Bewear can wallbreak very effectively and break a lot of types with its movepool and offensive typing as well as function as an incredibly effective pivot (I can't offer calcs since the ability Fluffy doesn't seem to work in the calculator, but we're talking about Kyurem-B's outrage, Diggersby's return, etc) and for these reasons it definitely should NOT be B ranked.
Bewear has little to no space on normal at the moment. Pory2/Chaney/staraptor/diggersby/ditto/meloetta or conversion PZ is what you should be ideally running as these mons are the best combination after the removal of Megas for normals. All the roles bewear does are redundant as it cannot be used since it's hazard weak, prediction heavy and also does not really pivot because it is not needed on normal. B rank is fine as it only has a specific niche it covers which is being a sub par mega lopunny. It's not really worth the team slot on normal as dodrio is also a better replacement.
On another note I honestly think dodrio should be A rank because of its scarf set. Scarf dodrio cleans fighting and a lot of other types (bar steel which it can't touch) as the 110 speed gives it a threatening set with its stabs and coverage options. SD life orb is quite a threat as it can take on several slower teams and can actually be quite troublesome if the opponent lacks any faster checks. Yes 110 neutral attack is underwhelming but two high powered stabs let it replace raptor as the offensive bird.
On another note I honestly think dodrio should be A rank because of its scarf set. Scarf dodrio cleans fighting and a lot of other types (bar steel which it can't touch) as the 110 speed gives it a threatening set with its stabs and coverage options. SD life orb is quite a threat as it can take on several slower teams and can actually be quite troublesome if the opponent lacks any faster checks. Yes 110 neutral attack is underwhelming but two high powered stabs let it replace raptor as the offensive bird.
Idk about A-rank for Dodrio tbh, B-rank seems really appropriate.
Dodrio may be fast, but it's significantly more frail than Raptor, and it struggles with being worn down by Recoil, Rocky helmets, and so on. It's strong, but Staraptor is significantly stronger, and the speed tier Dodrio tries to hit with it's scarf set isn't even that valuable now that fighting has dropped so heavily in usage (out-speeding scarf terrakion and such).
Dodrio may free up Staraptor to be defensive, but it certainly doesn't outclass Staraptor as an offensive bird. And as far as offensive birds go I'd argue something like Swellow is better at checking fighting and wallbreaking in general with it's blitzing speed and powerful specs set, and can do so without being worn down by Recoil.
I haven't tried SD + LO Dodrio, but I see it struggling from the same issues as other sets. Maybe I have to see it in practice, idk.
Bewear has little to no space on normal at the moment. Pory2/Chaney/staraptor/diggersby/ditto/meloetta or conversion PZ is what you should be ideally running as these mons are the best combination after the removal of Megas for normals. All the roles bewear does are redundant as it cannot be used since it's hazard weak, prediction heavy and also does not really pivot because it is not needed on normal. B rank is fine as it only has a specific niche it covers which is being a sub par mega lopunny. It's not really worth the team slot on normal as dodrio is also a better replacement.
On another note I honestly think dodrio should be A rank because of its scarf set. Scarf dodrio cleans fighting and a lot of other types (bar steel which it can't touch) as the 110 speed gives it a threatening set with its stabs and coverage options. SD life orb is quite a threat as it can take on several slower teams and can actually be quite troublesome if the opponent lacks any faster checks. Yes 110 neutral attack is underwhelming but two high powered stabs let it replace raptor as the offensive bird.
Definitely not true. It can run defensive EVs, bulky attack and HP, Choice Band, Life Orb. If what you meant is that it relies too much on prediction, it can usually spam Return in most cases and not get punished for it (or Superpower if going against Steel or Rock). It's an incredibly low risk vs high reward, so this point is simply false.
does not really pivot because it is not needed on normal
First of all, the first part of that sentence does not contradict the last for you to say "it doesn't pivot because it is not needed." The reason Bewear is a fantastic pivot and the thing that sets it apart from other "pivots" is that it's probably the best one Normal has, offensively. It has room to run 252 HP and then the rest in Attack since it is already bound to tank most physical hits. The only other Pokemon that can say this is perhaps Staraptor, but even that has an ability that is not constant, does not has nearly as good of a movepool, and cannot usually afford to run Attack EVs most of the time. 120/80 is also a very big difference to 85/70, and that's assuming Fluffy doesn't exist, in which case the comparison isn't even there.
I'm opening up B Rank for discussion so C--->B, A--->B nominations are ok, but D--->C D--->C, Unranked--->D are not. Countined S and A Rank discussion is fine as well
Removed Ash Greninja from VR because it was banned
(New Rule added) Avoid posting pointless 1 liners
During this batch of changes, the VR Council has decided to wait on most nominations until the metagame settles a bit more.
I'm opening up B Rank for discussion so C--->B, A--->B nominations are ok, but D--->C D--->C, Unranked--->D are not. Countined S and A Rank discussion is fine as well
Removed Ash Greninja from VR because it was banned
(New Rule added) Avoid posting pointless 1 liners
During this batch of changes, the VR Council has decided to wait on most nominations until the metagame settles a bit more.
I'm curious as to what made you guys decide to rise Celesteela from A to S. I personally find it to be a little underwhelming compared to Skarmory, primarily because it's only recovery is through Leech Seed + Leftovers, not to mention Skarmory's defense is miles higher. Even with its Leech Seed niche, I find it to be very similar to Ferrothorn in that aspect, even though Ferrothorn is able to do almost exactly the same thing in addition to helping with the Ground, Water, and Electric matchup, alongside fishing recoil on contact thanks to Iron Barbs. Celesteela in my experience at least I've noticed combined Skarmory and Ferrothorn almost, but putting it into 1 role with worse stats overall and no access to hazards. That for me does not make it a Pokemon that defines Steel teams, and is nowhere near as mandatory as Skarmory or Heatran. If someone can explain why I'm wrong here, that would be great, because based on the reasoning I have here (in addition to the fact that it's "best set" is protect toxic), please do because I am a little confused on that one.
I'm curious as to what made you guys decide to rise Celesteela from A to S. I personally find it to be a little underwhelming compared to Skarmory, primarily because it's only recovery is through Leech Seed + Leftovers, not to mention Skarmory's defense is miles higher. Even with its Leech Seed niche, I find it to be very similar to Ferrothorn in that aspect, even though Ferrothorn is able to do almost exactly the same thing in addition to helping with the Ground, Water, and Electric matchup, alongside fishing recoil on contact thanks to Iron Barbs. Celesteela in my experience at least I've noticed combined Skarmory and Ferrothorn almost, but putting it into 1 role with worse stats overall and no access to hazards. That for me does not make it a Pokemon that defines Steel teams, and is nowhere near as mandatory as Skarmory or Heatran. If someone can explain why I'm wrong here, that would be great, because based on the reasoning I have here (in addition to the fact that it's "best set" is protect toxic), please do because I am a little confused on that one.
My issue with your reasoning is that Skarmory actually isn't mandatory on steel teams this gen. Cele doesnt have a dedicated healing move but between leech seed and protect, it can be very durable throughout a battle. It's better than Skarmory and arguably as good as ferro in the ground matchup. It's a ground immunity that can 1v1 lando I, which makes it an absolute headache for ground teams to deal with. (Shit you could even run energy ball if you hate ground thato much). It's physical defense is actually decent which let's it's best bulky sets run specially defensive spreads. On another note, it's move pool is massive and can pick and choose between coverage depending on what you want to beat. (Eq, flame, eball, or even air slash which has its benefits). The ability to be able to pick and choose between what you want it to cover make it an extremely versatile mon.
The combination of it's ability to provide an immunity to/wall a significant chunk of the meta, coverage, and versatile make it a defining mon on steel teams in gen 7. Think about the fact that it makes another S rank mon that was known to be mandatory not mandatory any more and brings different things to the table for steel teams that Skarmory does not, which doesnt make it risky to use.
Another side note: using the things Ferrothorn does against cele is kinda pointless because it's not like ur using cele over ferro. I understood what u were saying and still adressed it anyways, but you can have them both on the same team and there wouldn't really be any redundancy. If anything, they'd compliment each other, giving cele more reign to abuse it's versatility.
Just an FYI as well: it's best set isn't protect toxic.
E: should say as well in regards to walling lando I that it walls sets without gravity. That being said not all of them until gravity and even if it is, HS does over half so it has to be relatively healthy to beat it.
I'm curious as to what made you guys decide to rise Celesteela from A to S. I personally find it to be a little underwhelming compared to Skarmory, primarily because it's only recovery is through Leech Seed + Leftovers, not to mention Skarmory's defense is miles higher. Even with its Leech Seed niche, I find it to be very similar to Ferrothorn in that aspect, even though Ferrothorn is able to do almost exactly the same thing in addition to helping with the Ground, Water, and Electric matchup, alongside fishing recoil on contact thanks to Iron Barbs. Celesteela in my experience at least I've noticed combined Skarmory and Ferrothorn almost, but putting it into 1 role with worse stats overall and no access to hazards. That for me does not make it a Pokemon that defines Steel teams, and is nowhere near as mandatory as Skarmory or Heatran. If someone can explain why I'm wrong here, that would be great, because based on the reasoning I have here (in addition to the fact that it's "best set" is protect toxic), please do because I am a little confused on that one.
What makes Celesteela really threatening in the meta-game it's offensive presence and overall versatility / unpredictability, neither of which Skarmory really has.
It's use of Leech seed can be really annoying, and in practice it proves really difficult to kill. Leech Seed also serves to support the rest of the team with recovery, and doesn't "overwrite" Ferrothorn anymore than running Leech Seed on Ferrothorn on Grass overwrites Venusaur. You can run both without being redundant. But what makes Celesteela monstrously annoying is it's offensive presence, sporting a powerful Heavy Slam (120 BP against most of the meta) and excellent coverage between flamethrower, energy ball / giga drain, air slash, earthquake. This, on top of leech seed, makes it a really pestersome threat for most types to contend with.
Also while Celesteela doesn't offer much in the Electric MU, it's definitely a huge pain for Ground to deal with.
And we haven't even discussed it's offensive capacity, which is pretty substantial between automatize, defensive typing, excellent coverage and Beast Boost.
That said, I can see why you're skeptical about it being S-rank. But I'm confident as the meta develops Celesteela will only become more and more of a threat in the meta-game.
I've really been excited to see how Mr. Zhulong would make an impact to the Monotype metagame since it was announced for the Sun & Moon news and Normal-types would be receiving this and have more use for it instead of Dragon-types. People really tend to overlook this Chinese dragon's usefulness on Normal because of how slow it is (even from its animation in the trailer I knew it was going to be slow) and its "okay" 78/85/91 bulk. These three aspects I see which is keeping it from being in the much higher ranks. I really want to touch a bit on Drampa because it is a pretty good asset and I'm pretty much the main person who uses this Pokemon on my team so I have background experience from it. (Thank you to Oberyn for that annoying Celesteela you had on your Flying team when we battled in the tour to make me utilize Drampa as somewhat of a check to it for both Steel and Flying but I'm really having fun with this mon now).
What makes Drampa any good on Normal?
Just like several other Normal-types, Drampa has access to a profusion of coverage moves that allow it to check types such as Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Hurricane, Energy Ball, Focus Blast, Extrasensory, and Shadow Ball. Drampa's Normal/Dragon typing grants it resistance to Electric-, Fire-, Grass-, and Water-types, which I will talk about a bit later. Drampa has two wonderful abilities to work with such as Berserk and Sap Sipper. Cloud Nine isn't really useful on it unless you feel like you have a huge problem against weather teams. Berserk increases Drampa's Special Attack by one stage once its health falls down to 50% or below and my prediction about it was correct that Berserk's effect can activate continuously and combine with Roost and decent bulk, Drampa can utilize its ability pretty well. Drampa also has a nice base 135 Special Attack stat, which can use Choice Specs to hit hard with its STAB and coverage moves. Sap Sipper; how I know it's not as good as Berserk, it can really put a huge stop to Celesteela on Flying and Steel teams that say "Haha!!!! A bunch of your Pokemon have a chunk of health and I can just keep seeding your butt!!!" Drampa has access to Calm Mind too being a win condition to certain types and can be a good way to set up mid- or late-game (usually where I find myself setting up Calm Minds or if I'm in a good position to.
Drampa can provide a bit of support to Normal teams, as it has access to Glare, which can be very helpful in paralyzing Ground-types and faster Pokemon, especially Choice Scarf users such as Victini. This helps open a moveslot for Chansey or Porygon2 (if you use Thunder Wave for either of them and I tend to utilize Heal Bell Chansey to keep my team healthy to survive longer) because of Thunder Wave being 90% now. Frnen and I were discussing a couple of weeks ago on how we would use Drampa on Normal and he did mention Calm Mind on it so thanks to him, I can actually deal with 4 types easier (well with the exception of certain Pokemon that threatens it such as Zard X). With burns being down to 6%, I don't have to worry about using Roost every time and can continue setting up Calm Minds.
What flaws does Drampa have?
The only main problems I see are its decent bulk and awful Speed stat, which I sorta see myself sacing in certain matchups like Fighting or Fairy (barring Klefki when I can just Fire Blast it and Magearna if I have enough Calm Minds). Its bulk I see makes me kind of upset because I run a physically defensive set on it and from powerful attacks such as Choice Scarf Terrakion or some other attacker has a chance to KO it. Porygon-Z and Meloetta are both more important as Special Attackers because of their decent base 90 Speed stat and Z-Conversion / Choice Specs/Scarf they utilize more effectively. Both can check Fighting-types better than Drampa can too. Because of this, it kind of makes Drampa a wasted teamslot over these two Pokemon. But nonetheless, I believe that Drampa deserves B rank at least.
[SET]
Drampa @ Leftovers
Ability: Berserk (Sap Sipper if you want to get the jump on Celesteela Leech Seed and Grass-types that tend to use it or just Grass-types/moves in general)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Bold
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Calm Mind
- Roost
I know these replays aren't good but they're all tour replays (except for the last one vs Steel) and just wanted to give an insight on how Drampa is in the metagame. Thank you for reading this post!
It's ORAS sets are still usable, but I find that with the new electric types, it gets edged out of a slot on teambuilding more often. Additionally, steel teams have started using scarf mold breaker excadrill again, which has hurt the benefit his immunity to ground gives. I find myself running (and seeing) rotom-w as sole levitate user on electric teams more and more often. I think what hurts him most is that he synergizes with balance electric teams, but he does not contribute toward the objectives of his new, more offensive teammates. I still use him sometimes, as I still think that something like volcarona is a huge threat to electric teams, but I find that some of the other special threats that I used to value him for have declined (draco meteor, clefable)
Keldeo earned an S-rank on Fighting in Gen 6 for being one of the strongest (and only) specially offensive Fighting types, sporting excellent wallbreaking power with it's pseudo-mixed STAB coverage and meaty SpA. But times have changed, and in Gen 7 Keldeo isn't nearly as effective in the metagame.
Keldeo struggles to pull it's weight in too many match ups to be considered S-rank anymore, with Gen 7 introducing several more hard-counters like Mantine, Toxapex, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini and even more common offensive checks like Tapu Koko, Greninja, Mega-Metagross, and so on. Although it's STAB combination is good, Keldeo is often dead weight against Fairy, Flying, Water, Poison, Electric, Psychic, Dragon, and Grass, rarely more than a sack or source of momentum drain.
While Keldeo is certainly still a strong pokemon, and can punch some holes using surprise HP-Electric or LO Moveswitching sets, the only time it seems like an S-ranked mon is in the matchup against Ground and Steel. And it faces competition from new threats like Kommo-O who sports much better bulk, coverage, and resistances.
It's ORAS sets are still usable, but I find that with the new electric types, it gets edged out of a slot on teambuilding more often. Additionally, steel teams have started using scarf mold breaker excadrill again, which has hurt the benefit his immunity to ground gives. I find myself running (and seeing) rotom-w as sole levitate user on electric teams more and more often. I think what hurts him most is that he synergizes with balance electric teams, but he does not contribute toward the objectives of his new, more offensive teammates. I still use him sometimes, as I still think that something like volcarona is a huge threat to electric teams, but I find that some of the other special threats that I used to value him for have declined (draco meteor, clefable)
Isn't that true for all B ranked electric mons though? The best builds have to be so generic that it's extremely hard to fit anything outside from the S and A mons. I personally feel that Electric has no B ranks whatsoever at this point in the metagame. Luxray's outclassed at everything it does by Thundurus, Golem and even the priority isnt appealing anymore because of A-Raichu. Raikou has a small niche with its coverage but that's definitely not enough to warrant a B-rank, but I'd understand if it stays B. I personally feel that maybe, the only possible B ranked electric mon is Magnezone, but I'll work on a post about this later
Buckle in folks, this is going to be another long post with a bunch of nominations you problably won't agree with. Most of these are somewhat tentative, but worthy of discussion IMO. I'll start with the highest ranked noms and work my way down.
Gardevoir
(A to B)- on Fairy
Gardevoir is a meaty special attacker whose main contribution to Fairy is Psychic STAB to help against poison. But Gardevoir now faces stiff competition from new fairies, and "helping" against poison doesn't compare to what other A-ranks like Tapu Bulu or Fini or Togekiss bring to the table.
Gardevoir doesn't even deal with poison that effectively: Gardevoir is slower than every offensive poison threat (nihilego, gengar, salazzle, nidoking, scolipede, crobat), so you're forced to run scarf, which leads you into Alola Muk, who walls her harder than Skuntank and Drapion ever could, and can consistently switch in, pursuit trap, and KO Gardevoir. Outside the Poison MU, Scarf-Voir finds only niche value in Trace: which lets her check some threats like Sand Rush Excadrill, A-Raichu, and Kingdra. All in all, Gardevoir doesn't compare to other A-ranks and struggles to perform the one niche it's meant to have. B-rank is appropiate.
252 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 218-258 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 180-212 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO 0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir: 204-242 (73.6 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 212-252 (69.7 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 134-162 (44 - 53.2%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 81-96 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO 116 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 172-204 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 116 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 172-204 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 116 Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 288-338 (103.9 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Togekiss
(A to B) on Flying
Togekiss is a Fairy/Flying type with excellent special defense, decent utility, and a trolly ability in Serene Grace. However Togekiss struggles to operate as effectively as it did in gen 7, with the nerf to thunder wave, overall power creep, and the rampancy of steel in the meta. Togekiss also faces new competition from Mantine: another specially defensive wall with a better immunity and a better typing for managing common threats like Greninja, Swift Swim, Ice attacks, and Steel. It's stallbreaker set is also less effective as well with the rise of offensive teams over the balanced, bulky builds in Gen 6 that Togekiss preyed on.
Togekiss is by no means a bad pokemon, and finds a niche in Heal Bell, but it doesn't stand up to the other A-rank pokemon and struggles to compete with new mons like Mantine and pre-existing staples like Zapdos. This is probably a contentious nomination, but I think B-rank is fitting for Togekiss in this metagame.
Serperior
(A to B) on Grass To be blunt, Serperior is not great on grass. Grass STAB is not super valuable to grass. Grass STAB does not help Grass against any type that isn't a neutral or already advantageous SE match up. And outside of Grass STAB Serperior's coverage is awful, relying on HP-Ground/Fire and D-pulse. Between Serp's limited offenses and poor defensive typing, there is an ample supply of defensive and offensive checks on any given type (except water / ground / rock).
While Serperior has been indirectly buffed by the introduction of Tapu Bulu's grassy terrain which bolsters Serp's mediocre offenses with Leaf storm, it doesn't solve it's biggest issues: lack of coverage and loads of poor match ups (Poison, Steel, Fire, Flying, Bug, etc). Serperior just doesn't offer as much to grass as other A-rank pokemon with it's one-dimensional offensive and defensive presence. Because of this, Serperior is suited as a B-rank pokemon.
Buzzwole
(B to A) on Fighting This will be a another contentious nomination, but I definitely feel people have been far too quick to dismiss the death mosquito. Like Heracross, Buzzwole is a physically offensive Bug/Fighting type with Beast Boost (moxie) and excellent physical wallbreaking power. Unlike Heracross, however, Buzzwole lacks Megahorn (has leech life), relies on Superpower > Close Combat for fighting STAB, and doesn't have Guts as an option to absorb status. But Buzzwole has several unique assets that set it apart for it's faster, STAB-wielding cousin.
For one, Buzzwole is very, very physically bulky, sporting 107/139 defenses (compared to heracross's 80/75). This allows Buzzwole to tank far more hits than heracross and serve as a physically bulky check to threats like Excadrill, Azumarill, Landorus-T, etc. It's actually the only fighting type outside cobalion who can take a hit from Mega-Metagross, and can dent it hard with EQ/Super (2HKOs with Scarf). And Buzzwole's fighting and ground resistances do an excellent job of covering Cobalion's weaknesses. Secondly Buzzwole has access to Ice and Thunder punch, two kinds of valuable coverage that allow Buzzwole to break and threaten many threats Heracross can't: such as Azumarill, Gliscor, Lando-T, and Garchomp.
Overall these assets put Buzzwole on par with Heracross in most match ups, whilst setting itself apart with it's physical bulk and coverage options. That's enough to make it A-rank on Fighting IMO.
252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 270-318 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 246-290 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Thunder Punch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 310-366 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 238-282 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 270-318 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 424-500 (120.4 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 268-316 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 102-120 (28.7 - 33.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 63-75 (17.7 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 166-196 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 408-484 (97.8 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 160-190 (53.1 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 278-330 (78.3 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Marowak-Alola
(C to B) on Fire
A tentative nomination here for Marowak-Alola: the new Ghost/Fire pokemon with Lightningrod. His niche may be small, but it's pretty handy: the immunity keeps electric teams from running through Fire builds outside of Zard-x (teams using Zard-Y) while consistently stealing momentum away from threats like Zapdos, Tapu Koko, Magearna, etc. Marowak also serves as a strong spinblocker, able to 1v1 most spinners besides Excadrill and Starmie.
It's also a very strong attacker; Thick Club boosted Flare Blitz in the sun hits absurdly hard and is able to 2HKO defensive threats like Mandibuzz and Porygon2 (and outspeed them with proper investment). Finally, Marowak offers meaty Ghost STAB to help check Mega-Slowbro, Shadow Bone putting it in revenge range of other pokemon like Volcarona. These assets make Alola-Wak a solid B-rank pokemon for Fire, though I'd love to hear other thoughts on this.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz in Sun: 333-393 (79 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 240-283 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Tyranitar: 270-318 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 217-256 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
---
---
---
---
Edit: Taking down Klefki nomination: I'm not confident in it anymore after some discussion (credits to Eien and iLlama) and don't want it to detract from the other Nominations. Removed from post.
Buckle in folks, this is going to be another long post. I'll start with the highest ranked noms and work my way down.
Klefki
(S to A) on Fairy
Klefki is a Steel/Fairy type with access to screens, hazards, priority status, and even anti-setup utility in Foul Play which earned it an S-rank on Fairy Monotypes in Gen 6. But things are different in Generation 7.
Klefki's utility suffered a direct nerf to both prankster and thunder wave. While Prankster nerf (dark type's immunity) isn't huge (though giving Bisharp breathing room is unpleasant), the nerf to paralysis (50% speed debuff, up from 25%) hurts Klefki's utility and ability to cripple opposing threats. Klefki also struggles to operate as effectively as it once did with the power creep in the tier this gen: and can't switch into threats due to the raw firepower zipping around: Electric spam, rain, bulu, koko, magearna, etc.
Lastly, and most importantly, the new Gen brought with it a slew of new, powerful fairies, introducing new staples like Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu, and even another Steel/Fairy type, Magearna (and understated mons like Fini, Mimikyu, Alolatales) that compete with Klefki for teamslots. While none of these new additions "outclass" Klefki, or directly replace it, the bolstered supply of pokemon Fairy has access too means Klefki isn't mandatory on fairy like it once was.
Klefki is certainly still viable and an amazing pokemon for Fairy, but it isn't the staple it used to be, and it certainly doesn't compare with other S-ranks like Magearna and Tapu Koko. Klefki fits for A-rank on Fairy.
Gardevoir
(A to B)- on Fairy
Gardevoir is a meaty special attacker whose main contribution to Fairy is Psychic STAB to help against poison. But Gardevoir now faces stiff competition from new fairies, and "helping" against poison doesnt't compare to what other A-ranks like Tapu Bulu or Fini or Togekiss bring to the table.
Gardevoir doesn't even deal with poison that effectively: Gardevoir is slower than every offensive poison threat (nihilego, gengar, salazzle, nidoking, scolipede, crobat), so you're forced to run scarf, which leads you into Alola Muk, who walls her harder than Skuntank and Drapion ever could and can consistently switch in, pursuit trap, and KO Gardevoir. All in All, Gardevoir doesn't compare to other A-ranks and struggles to perform the one niche it's meant to have. B-rank is appropiate.
252 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 218-258 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 180-212 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO 0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir: 204-242 (73.6 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 212-252 (69.7 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 134-162 (44 - 53.2%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 81-96 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO 116 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 172-204 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 116 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 172-204 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 116 Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 288-338 (103.9 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Togekiss
(A to B) on Flying
Togekiss is a specially defensive wall on flying who can also run a stallbreaker set, however with the rampancy of steel and electric Togekiss struggles to operate as effectively as it did in gen 7. The worst thing that happened to Togekiss, however, was the introduction of Celesteela and the rise of Mantine into relevant play: as two other specially defensive walls with better typing (ice neutrality) for managing steel and other common threats in the metagame like Greninja. It's stallbreaker set is also arguably less effective as well with the rise of offensive teams over the balanced, bulky builds of Gen 6 that stallbreaker-kiss preyed on.
Togekiss is by no means a bad pokemon, but it simply doesn't stand up to the other A-rank pokemon and has been somewhat pushed out of it's role as a specially defensive wall by Mantine and Celesteela. It's a fitting B-rank in this metagame.
Serperior
(A to B) on Grass To be blunt, Serperior is not great on grass. Grass STAB is not valuable to grass. Grass STAB does not help Grass against anything other than a neutral or already advantageous SE match up and even then many matchups do not provide Serperior a chance to spam leafstorm. And due to Serperior's pitiful coverage and unhelpful defensive typing there is an ample supply of defensive and offensive checks on any given type (except water / ground / rock).
While Serperior has been indirectly buffed by the introduction of Tapu Bulu's grassy terrain which bolsters Serp's mediocre offenses with Leaf storm, it doesn't solve it's biggest issues: lack of coverage and loads of poor match ups. Serperior just doesn't offer as much to grass as other pokemon who better synergize with the type's defensive hazard stack. Because of this, Serperior is suited as a B-rank pokemon.
Buzzwole
(B to A) on Fighting This will be a contentious opinion, but I definitely feel people have been far too quick to dismiss the death mosquito. Like Heracross, Buzzwole is a physically offensive Bug/Fighting type with Beast Boost (moxie) and excellent physical wallbreaking power. Unlike Heracross, however, Buzzwole lacks Megahorn (has leech life), relies on Superpower > Close Combat for fighting STAB, and doesn't have Guts as an option to absorb status. But Buzzwole has several unique assets that set it apart for it's faster, STAB-wielding cousin.
For one, Buzzwole is very, very physically bulky, sporting 107/139 defenses (compared to heracross's 80/75). This allows Buzzwole to tank far more hits than heracross and serve as a physically bulky check to threats like Excadrill, Azumarill, Landorus-T, etc. It's actually the only fighting type outside cobalion who can take a hit from Mega-Metagross, and can dent it hard with EQ/Super (2HKOs with Scarf). And Buzzwole's fighting and ground resistances do an excellent job of covering Cobalion's weaknesses. Secondly Buzzwole has access to Ice and Thunder punch, two kinds of valuable coverage that allow Buzzwole to break and threaten many threats Heracross can't: such as Azumarill, Gliscor, Lando-T, and Garchomp.
Overall these assets put Buzzwole on par with Heracross in most match ups, whilst setting itself apart with it's physical bulk and coverage options. That's enough to make it A-rank on Fighting IMO.
252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 270-318 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 246-290 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Thunder Punch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 310-366 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 238-282 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 270-318 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 424-500 (120.4 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 268-316 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 102-120 (28.7 - 33.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 63-75 (17.7 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 166-196 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 408-484 (97.8 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 160-190 (53.1 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 278-330 (78.3 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Marowak-Alola
(C to B) on Fire
A minor nomination here: Marowak-Alola is a new Ghost/Fire pokemon with Lightningrod. His niche may be small, but it's very significant: an electric immunity keeps electric teams from running through Fire builds outside of Zard-x while consistently stealing momentum away from threats like Zapdos, Tapu Koko, Magearna, etc. Marowak also serves as a strong spinblocker, able to 1v1 most spinners outside of Excadrill and Starmie.
It's also a very strong attacker, Thick Club boosted Flare Blitzs in the sun hits absurdly hard and are able to even 2HKO defensive threats like Mandibuzz and Porygon2 (and outspeed them with proper investment). Finally, Marowak offers heavy Ghost STAB to help check Mega-Slowbro, putting it in revenge range of other pokemon like Volcarona. These assets make Alola-Wak a solid B-rank pokemon for Fire.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz in Sun: 333-393 (79 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 240-283 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Tyranitar: 270-318 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 217-256 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
last two arent bad suggestions, but first three are literally the opposite of truth. for klefki, every fairy team need duel screens, period. for gardevoir, its not gonna drop till tapu lele comes back, as its one of the only two available scarfs. for togekiss, its not only a special wall, but a cleric. unless u wanna run heal bell on dragonite
Fairy doesn't necessarily need screens in gen 7 like it did in gen 6 for a few reasons
1) it has much more offensive capability to pressure the opponents allowing it to effectively not rely on screens
2) fairy isnt limited to 6~7 viable pokemon making it a much more diverse typing both offemsively and defensively giving klefki less importance in building a fairy team.
3) while it is true Klefki can help stop pokemon like setup sweepers with screens fairy does always have other techs. Unaware clefable can easily stop a majoirty of setup sweepers in their tracks and mimikyu can blanket check setup sweepers with its special ability disguise which sponges any one attack (not including mold breaker sweepers).
About Gardevoir
Fairy has access to speed control outside of scarfs like gardevoir. Pokemon like Tapu Koko and Shift Gear Magearna offer speed control through tapu kokos natural speed and magearnas ability to set up shift gears, not to mention the many paralysis spreading pokemon available to fairy such as Whimsicott, Clefable, Togekiss and Klefki. Furthermore fairy isnt reliant on gardevoir to check poison types anymore as Magearna offers an offensive immunity to the typing as a whole and overall.
I agree with Tyke's nominations bringing Klefki down from A to S and Gardevoir from A to B on the fairy monotype.
I also agree with Tyke's assessments, but will also add that even if fairy desparately needs screens, it now has access to A-Ninetales with the fantastic Aurora Veil, who also brings speed, weather control and offensive presence to the table.
Magearna is also a far bigger pain for poison to face than Gardevoir ever was, as poison teams typically have one-two sources of fire and ground attacks on any given team, both of which are obvious. Not to mention, there are typically several pokemon on poison that can't even touch Magearna (A-Muk, Toxapex) granting Magearna easy set-up opportunities for Trick Room or Shift Gear
Klefki is a Steel/Fairy type with access to screens, hazards, priority status, and even anti-setup utility in Foul Play which earned it an S-rank on Fairy Monotypes in Gen 6. But things are different in Generation 7.
Klefki's utility suffered a direct nerf to both prankster and thunder wave. While Dark Types's immunity to Prankster isn't a big deal (though giving Bisharp breathing room is unpleasant), the nerf to paralysis (50% speed debuff, up from 25%) hurts Klefki's utility and ability to cripple opposing threats. Klefki also struggles to operate as effectively as it once did with the power creep in the tier this gen: and can't switch into threats due to the raw firepower zipping around: Electric spam, rain, bulu, koko, magearna, etc.
What exactly does the nerf to Prankster do to Klefki? Which Dark-types did Klefki need to use Thunder Wave on? Like you said, it's really not a big deal, so why bring it up? The paralysis nerf is unfortunate but not a serious problem. Almost only Choice Scarf users are still too fast for Thunder Wave to cripple, and most Choice Scarf users aren't strong enough to break through Klefki, Magearna, Tapu Fini, or Clefable. And regarding power creep, Klefki usually isn't meant to switch into those kinds of attacks anyway, so that's just trying to make Klefki look bad for doing something it shouldn't have been doing anyway. You don't say that defensive Staraptor is bad because it can't switch into the new powerful attackers like Electric spam, rain, bulu, koko, magearna, etc. That's literally not what it's supposed to be doing, so why even judge it like that? These are pivots, not walls.
Lastly, and most importantly, fairy has other options now. The new Gen brought with it a slew of new, powerful fairies, introducing new staples like Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu, and even another Steel/Fairy type, Magearna (and understated mons like Fini, Mimikyu, Alolatales) that compete with Klefki for teamslots. While none of these new additions "outclass" Klefki, or directly replace it, the bolstered supply of pokemon Fairy has access too means Klefki isn't mandatory on fairy like it once was.
Klefki is certainly still viable and an amazing pokemon for Fairy, but it isn't the staple it used to be, and it certainly doesn't compare with other S-ranks like Magearna and Tapu Koko. Klefki fits for A-rank on Fairy.
Yeah this actually makes 0 sense. All of the new Pokemon absolutely adore having Klefki as a teammate. Tapu Koko loves Spikes support as it forces switches and pivots around with powerful Volt Switch. Tapu Bulu appreciates paralysis to patch up its poor Speed and screens support to more easily defensively check threats. Magearna and Mimikyu so obviously almost need Klefki's help with screens to set up and sweep effectively without forgetting Spikes support, which helps net a few more KOs. None of these compete at all with Klefki for teamslots; they compete with every other sweeper, every other pivot, and every other attacker on the team. Klefki's spot is never in danger because it's the only viable and reliable user of so many utility moves that it can compress into one slot with a fantastic typing.
For my own reasoning:
I'm not really sure how Fairy is apparently not in need of Klefki anymore. Just because you have more options doesn't mean Klefki isn't an auto-include. The two main sets both use Dual Screens + Thunder Wave, with the fourth move varying between Foul Play and Spikes. Without Foul Play Klefki, you pretty much have to use a Babiri Berry + Fire Blast lure to beat Mega Scizor. Even if you don't use Foul Play, Spikes Klefki is ridiculously good. Why?
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 250-294 (83 - 97.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Scizor-Mega: 258-303 (75.2 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
You need some way to chip down these two Steel-type Mega Evolutions to ensure the Azumarill sweep against Steel teams. When you are at such a natural disadvantage, you're not going to be able to force Mega Metagross to take the necessary 16% as easily or Mega Scizor to take the necessary 25% almost at all. There are just so many teammates that switch into Fairy threats that they really don't need to stay in if they don't want to.
Furthermore, is Klefki + Magearna redundant defensively? Not at all. Steel / Fairy is one of the best defensive typings, first of all. Second of all, you should be just thrilled to have the chance to stack an additional Steel neutrality and Poison immunity. Oh, we stacked Ground weakness? Well, Tapu Bulu checks that. Fire weakness? Azumarill and Tapu Fini. Klefki + Magearna works so beautifully. Magearna isn't a Klefki replacement; they do two completely different things and check two very different set of threats.
This isn't even including Klefki's ability to support the team by setting up screens against Ground offensive core of Excadrill + Landorus / Nidoking. Screens is so busted for Fairy when you have such a naturally bulky team. The tried and true strategy of dual screens + Belly Drum Azumarill is stronger than ever. Why would you give up one of Fairy's only reliable win conditions against teams like Ground and Steel? Against any Ground team that doesn't have Seismitoad, Klefki + Azumarill is ridiculously threatening. Then you have Magearna again. The best support you can give a Trick Room or Shift Gear Magearna would be dual screens. Like honestly at this point I don't even need to talk about Prankster Thunder Wave checking countless threats for Fairy in spite of both nerfs.
I don't even know what you would ever want to put over Klefki. It's literally an auto-include and should be on every good Fairy team bar none. If a Pokemon is an auto-include, is that not S rank quality? Klefki should stay S rank.
I don't even know what you would ever want to put over Klefki. It's literally an auto-include and should be on every good Fairy team bar none. If a Pokemon is an auto-include, is that not S rank quality? Klefki should stay S rank.
I just wanna adress this tiny part. I'll just list some auto-includes that aren't S-ranked atm
Ghost - Mimikyu, Marowak-A
Grass and Rock - Cradily
Poison - Muk-A, Nidoking
Normal - Diggersby
Bug - Araquanid
Dark - Mandibuzz
Fighting - Cobalion
The list can go on... You're just emphasizing something completely untrue here to try and prove your point. S rank is not only "mandatory", it's much more than that. What you have to ask is "Is Klefki meta-defining?". If not, well, then it's not a S rank.
And regarding power creep, Klefki usually isn't meant to switch into those kinds of attacks anyway, so that's just trying to make Klefki look bad for doing something it shouldn't have been doing anyway.
Yea, this is the thing that makes no sense. What (viable) walls does Fairy has at its disposal to switch on hard hits? Isn't Klefki the go to mon whenever you want a pivot and you dont have a hard check/counter? All that Tyke stated there is that with all the power creeping this gen, Klefki struggles switching in like it used to, and that is definitely true.
I too support the drop in rank, mainly for the reasons already stated before, so i won't turn this into a long post.
TykeWhat exactly does the nerf to Prankster do to Klefki? Which Dark-types did Klefki need to use Thunder Wave on? Like you said, it's really not a big deal, so why bring it up? The paralysis nerf is unfortunate but not a serious problem. Almost only Choice Scarf users are still too fast for Thunder Wave to cripple, and most Choice Scarf users aren't strong enough to break through Klefki, Magearna, Tapu Fini, or Clefable. And regarding power creep, Klefki usually isn't meant to switch into those kinds of attacks anyway, so that's just trying to make Klefki look bad for doing something it shouldn't have been doing anyway. You don't say that defensive Staraptor is bad because it can't switch into the new powerful attackers like Electric spam, rain, bulu, koko, magearna, etc. That's literally not what it's supposed to be doing, so why even judge it like that? These are pivots, not walls.
Yeah this actually makes 0 sense. All of the new Pokemon absolutely adore having Klefki as a teammate. Tapu Koko loves Spikes support as it forces switches and pivots around with powerful Volt Switch. Tapu Bulu appreciates paralysis to patch up its poor Speed and screens support to more easily defensively check threats. Magearna and Mimikyu so obviously almost need Klefki's help with screens to set up and sweep effectively without forgetting Spikes support, which helps net a few more KOs. None of these compete at all with Klefki for teamslots; they compete with every other sweeper, every other pivot, and every other attacker on the team. Klefki's spot is never in danger because it's the only viable and reliable user of so many utility moves that it can compress into one slot with a fantastic typing.
For my own reasoning:
I'm not really sure how Fairy is apparently not in need of Klefki anymore. Just because you have more options doesn't mean Klefki isn't an auto-include. The two main sets both use Dual Screens + Thunder Wave, with the fourth move varying between Foul Play and Spikes. Without Foul Play Klefki, you pretty much have to use a Babiri Berry + Fire Blast lure to beat Mega Scizor. Even if you don't use Foul Play, Spikes Klefki is ridiculously good. Why?
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 250-294 (83 - 97.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Scizor-Mega: 258-303 (75.2 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
You need some way to chip down these two Steel-type Mega Evolutions to ensure the Azumarill sweep against Steel teams. When you are at such a natural disadvantage, you're not going to be able to force Mega Metagross to take the necessary 16% as easily or Mega Scizor to take the necessary 25% almost at all. There are just so many teammates that switch into Fairy threats that they really don't need to stay in if they don't want to.
Furthermore, is Klefki + Magearna redundant defensively? Not at all. Steel / Fairy is one of the best defensive typings, first of all. Second of all, you should be just thrilled to have the chance to stack an additional Steel neutrality and Poison immunity. Oh, we stacked Ground weakness? Well, Tapu Bulu checks that. Fire weakness? Azumarill and Tapu Fini. Klefki + Magearna works so beautifully. Magearna isn't a Klefki replacement; they do two completely different things and check two very different set of threats.
This isn't even including Klefki's ability to support the team by setting up screens against Ground offensive core of Excadrill + Landorus / Nidoking. Screens is so busted for Fairy when you have such a naturally bulky team. The tried and true strategy of dual screens + Belly Drum Azumarill is stronger than ever. Why would you give up one of Fairy's only reliable win conditions against teams like Ground and Steel? Against any Ground team that doesn't have Seismitoad, Klefki + Azumarill is ridiculously threatening. Then you have Magearna again. The best support you can give a Trick Room or Shift Gear Magearna would be dual screens. Like honestly at this point I don't even need to talk about Prankster Thunder Wave checking countless threats for Fairy in spite of both nerfs.
I don't even know what you would ever want to put over Klefki. It's literally an auto-include and should be on every good Fairy team bar none. If a Pokemon is an auto-include, is that not S rank quality? Klefki should stay S rank.
I knew this would be a controversial nomination, so thanks for the thoughtful response Eien!
You brought up some valuable points I hadn't considered regarding Klefki and the support it provides Fairy teams; I definitely understated the value spikes provides any fairy build. And I shouldn't have stated Klefki was no longer "mandatory" for Fairy teams: as that's an underdeveloped personal impression I'm not prepared to defend yet (especially as the basis for a nomination).
I do, however, want to clear up a few quick potential misconceptions regarding my nomination. Magearna does not replace / outclass Klefki. I'm not sure where and if in my post I suggested, or even implied this, but I agree with you fully that Magearna does not replace Klefki; Magearna + Klefki is not redundant. Steel/Fairy typing is amazing, and Magearna and Klefki perform very, very different roles. Klefki is not a bad Pokemon; it's amazing for all the reasons you state yourself. Klefki offers excellent utility in hazards, screens, status, and foul play. While there are pokemon who can perform bits and pieces of what Klefki can do, none offer the same reliability or role compression.
So why nominate it for a lower rank?
I didn't nominate Klefki for a lower rank because it's significantly less effective in the metagame: it isn't. The Keychain suffered minor nerfs and is a bit less effective due to power creep: nothing serious. I nominated Klefki for A-rank because it's contribution to Fairy is less central and meta-defining than that of other S-ranked threats (Azumarill, Magearna, Tapu Koko) and should be ranked as such.
A nomination for A-rank doesn't mean I don't think Klefki is an incredible asset to Fairy: A-ranks are still amazing pokemon who should absolutely see relevant usage. even Tapu Bulu is A-rank on Fairy right now, and I'd posit the power and terrain support it provides make it just as essential as Klefki. Like Czim said there are plenty of A-ranked pokemon who are considered "auto-includes" or staples of their respective types: Armaldo/Forretress (Bug), Alola-Ninetales (Ice), Breloom (Grass), Nidotwins (Poison) for example. Despite being arguably essential they aren't S-ranked because they are not as meta-defining as like Volcarona, Kyurem-B, and Mega-Venusaur (respectively).
(If there's some flaw in my understanding of how rankings work, let me know) TL;DR: Klefki is amazing, but Azumarill, Magearna and Koko are all more important and defining to the type and the tier at large.
Edit: Reading over this post I realized it's mostly a rhetoric on S/A-ranks in the context of Monotype rather than an actual analysis of how Klefki performs in the metagame. For the basis of a nomination that's pretty insubstantial, so, apologies.
I just wanna adress this tiny part. I'll just list some auto-includes that aren't S-ranked atm
Ghost - Mimikyu, Marowak-A
Grass and Rock - Cradily
Poison - Muk-A, Nidoking
Normal - Diggersby
Bug - Araquanid
Dark - Mandibuzz
Fighting - Cobalion
The list can go on... You're just emphasizing something completely untrue here to try and prove your point. S rank is not only "mandatory", it's much more than that. What you have to ask is "Is Klefki meta-defining?". If not, well, then it's not a S rank.
A nomination for A-rank doesn't mean I don't think Klefki is an incredible asset to Fairy: A-ranks are still amazing pokemon who should absolutely see relevant usage. even Tapu Bulu is A-rank on Fairy right now, and I'd posit the power and terrain support it provides make it just as essential as Klefki. Like Czim said there are plenty of A-ranked pokemon who are considered "auto-includes" or staples of their respective types: Armaldo/Forretress (Bug), Alola-Ninetales (Ice), Breloom (Grass), Nidotwins (Poison) for example. Despite being arguably essential they aren't S-ranked because they are not as meta-defining as like Volcarona, Kyurem-B, and Mega-Venusaur (respectively).
Lagging too much to really comment on all this but I'll keep this short and sweet. Doesn't matter if you're using them as an example either. When you're discussing a Pokemon's viability, I would be very much appreciate it if you guys didn't mention other Pokemon of different types that are ranked A in your argument please because that is not only a horrific backup towards nominating Klefki for A rank, but it's very poor and irrelevant considering they all provide different jobs/roles/ways in helping their own types so they have nothing to do with with Klefki's job on Fairy-types so I would avoid doing that. It's not helping your claim in nominating / supporting Klefki in having it drop a rank.
Lagging too much to really comment on all this but I'll keep this short and sweet. Doesn't matter if you're using them as an example either. When you're discussing a Pokemon's viability, I would be very much appreciate it if you guys didn't mention other Pokemon of different types that are ranked A in your argument please because that is not only a horrific backup towards nominating Klefki for A rank, but it's very poor and irrelevant considering they all provide different jobs/roles/ways in helping their own types so they have nothing to do with with Klefki's job on Fairy-types so I would avoid doing that. It's not helping your claim in nominating / supporting Klefki in having it drop a rank.
Idk if it seems to you like we're comparing klefki to other A-ranks simply to make it drop, but that's not what I was trying to do. What I was trying to say, to disprove Eien's argument, is that S ranks are not just mandatory, they're much more than that, while proving some A ranks are mandatory too. I'll avoid doing that in the future if that's an issue though
Vikavolt C->B (electric) - Vikavolt is reliable for electric not just for levitate but also for its high special attack. Its movepool grants it access to energy ball which can be extremely useful against annoying walls on ground teams such as Gastrodon and Hippowdon, coupled with its base 90 defense making it useful to sponge several hits, also by giving it an assault vest it can sponge hits from special attackers making it helpful for switching in.
