More Thoughts on Stealth Rock

Do you support the testing of a Stealth Rockless metagame?


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Okay you know I'd be one to quickly jump on this. With Deoxys in a Speedo gone there is absolutely nothing that can just throw down a speedy Taunt and put a stop to this move.

Since you've heard this all to death I'm going straight to the point.

Getting rid of Stealth Rock is kind of impractical seeing as how few pokémon get Rapid Spin and especially in the advent of Platinum we see a lot of Rotoms floating around blocking our spinning.

Edit: Common Arguments for a ban on SR

1. No other move hits everything (with the exception of not hitting Magic Guard Clefable).

2. Hardly punishable. There's often some way you can punish a pokémon for using a certain move, but in the long run you really cannot.

3. Minimizes the pokémon that can be played (Moltres, Charizard, Yanmega, and Ho-Oh taking 50% is huge) allowing certain pokémon ex. Scizor to run rampant.

4. Ease to set up. Brongzong having only one weakness, can be used by super fast pokémon like Areodactyl too.

5. Hard to get rid of. Not too many pokémon carry Rapid Spin and many are stopped by common Ghosts.

Destroying the Counter Arguments

1. Taunt the SR Leads:


If you do manage to Taunt a lead then they'll probably just switch back in later to set up SR when they have a chance.

In October any Bronzong had nearly a 70% chance of holding Stealth Rock and I am sure that is just going to rise seeing as it is a practical SR user.

But "Infernape and Heatran" can stop Bronzong, this is true, but what Bronzong would be staying in on them? Seeing as it only has one weakness it could come in later and just set up.

We all know how fast Azelf is and many sets carry a Scarf, so it will be difficult to stop.

2. Focus Sash users would be Broken:

Not when Spikes could be used and Sandstream/Snow Warning covers most flyers/levitators.

Let's not forget about Choice Scarfers and priority moves especially Fake Out, which would easily handle anything on its last HP.

3. Skymin would be Broken:

Actually a Stealth Rock ban would open the door to more of its counters such as Regice and Zapdos would survive longer against it.

How many Skymin would be happy to switch in on a Moltres?

4. Gyarados and Salamence would run rampant:


If you are worried about Focus Sash variants read #2. Salamence and Gyarados still get easily obliterated by an Ice and Electric move respectively.

Let's not forget about various Scarfers that could handle these guys. I'm theroymoning here, but a Jolly Choice Scarf Areodactyl/Timid Choice Scarf Jolteon would be faster than most current Salamence and Gyarados sets after they have used Dragon Dance twice. There is also (lol) Scarf Electrode. Areodactyl would not be the most practical thing right now because of taking 25% from SR.

When a door closes a new one opens up.
 

cim

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No one can argue about what a metagame will be like with no one testing it.

Instead of putting "no ban" people on the defensive and forcing them to make up thoughts on a metagame that doesn't exist, we have to ask "Is SR broken?"

After all, we only ban things if they are broken. Not if we "prefer" another metagame. If they're broken, it can be banned. If not, it isn't.

Thus, the only thing to argue is "is it broken", which this thread doesn't address. It's pointless to bicker about a metagame that doesn't yet exist since literally no one has played it.

No counters to a set doesn't mean it's broken. Hell, not even being able to prevent SR (ignoring that you can) doesn't mean it's broken.

Also, a lot of the counter arguments to arguments about a made up metagame are wrong. Jolly Scarf Aero is never faster than a Max Speed Adamant DDmence after 2DDs, even though you just made up the argument you are countering anyway. You're opening the thread with a strawman...
 
I think a test would be interesting, just so we can get away from theorymon.

I don't think you adequately refuted point 2; that focus sash would be rigged. Sandstorm/hail hit at the end of the turn, so you would still have one guaranteed turn with any flying/levitating poke. How would you like to face a team of Gyarados, Salamence, Gengar, Skymin, Togekiss and Zapdos all equipped with sash?

This isn't to say I don't support a test, just that I disagree that focus sash is irrelevant to a stealth rock-less metagame.
 

Chou Toshio

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Problem is no one knows what the heck broken is.

I think I'd like to see what a metagame without SR would be like, but I doubt I'd like a metagame where gyara/mence/zap/skymin/yanmega can switch in and out with only the same damage as any other pokemon (I rarely see spikes going up, and t-spikes hurt very little of the top ou anyway).
 
sr is an incredibly offensive move and with the addition of the rotom forms, i think it's really just a "staple" in teambuilding in general. I would really unban garchomp before i did anything like ban sr, since it's effect is so much more imbued into the metagame it's near impossible to predict what would emerge from an srless meta.

all i know is that all my teams that never set up sr are crappy and i always wish i had it.
 
I think no Stealth Rock would be pretty sweet actually. All of Gyarados' and Salamence's counters can still OHKO them wether there is Stealth Rock down or not. In fact, no Stealth Rock would benefit them because a lot of sweepers require Stealth Rock to get those crucial 2HKOs.

Cool Pokemon like Regice and Moltres would have a shot at doing something without being killed so easily. A lot of really good Pokemon are so crippled by Stealth Rock, is it any wonder that so much of OU is Steel and Ground types?
 
sr is an incredibly offensive move and with the addition of the rotom forms, i think it's really just a "staple" in teambuilding in general. I would really unban garchomp before i did anything like ban sr, since it's effect is so much more imbued into the metagame it's near impossible to predict what would emerge from an srless meta.

all i know is that all my teams that never set up sr are crappy and i always wish i had it.
So...in that last sentence, you're saying that you feel SR is needed for a team to be good? How is that different from a team needing Garchomp to be good?
 
I think no Stealth Rock would be pretty sweet actually. All of Gyarados' and Salamence's counters can still OHKO them wether there is Stealth Rock down or not. In fact, no Stealth Rock would benefit them because a lot of sweepers require Stealth Rock to get those crucial 2HKOs.

Cool Pokemon like Regice and Moltres would have a shot at doing something without being killed so easily. A lot of really good Pokemon are so crippled by Stealth Rock, is it any wonder that so much of OU is Steel and Ground types?
You can't counter threats 100% of the time. It not about saying if we remove SR say Jolteon can still OHKO with thunderboly. its about saying can my -1 Snorlax get that crucial 2HKO with Body Slam before Gyarados set up on it's ass. Yo give the argument that there are already pokemon that can OHKO another pokemon is completley and utterly flawed, so please don't try to bring that up. We all know now that you can't counter every threat in the game and sometimes its about playing around those threats. SR helps with this immensely.

We know in DP, that the Pokemon you bring into the beginning of the battle play a huge part in whether you win the game or not. If you have a bad matchup you're in trouble. Stealth Rock can help you with this grabbing some crucial 2HKOs where they may be nessecary. Removing SR from the Metagame will only increase the "difference" in team matchups that the advent of DPPt brought with it. In short removing SR will make it even harder for a team with bad matchups to another to win, and maybe yes you should build you team better or whatever, but I don't think its as broken as you think Infinity, I just don't, you're guilty of Skiddles mistake too.
 
Isn't Stealth Rock a suspect anyways? We'll get to it when we get to it, I guess.

Removing stealth rock changes the metagame a lot, and I don't think anyone can predict what would and would not dominate that metagame.
 
So...in that last sentence, you're saying that you feel SR is needed for a team to be good? How is that different from a team needing Garchomp to be good?
sr and garchomp are two completely different metagame factors, garchomp was banned to ubers since it essentially had a set that didn't really have feasible checks. stealth rock doesn't need checks, it just punishes switches and makes zard/butterfree less viable ?_?
 
Considering how high special fire and special flying are on X-act's attacking types list, I can see moltres becoming quite a force to be reckoned with once stealth rock is out of the picture.
 

Chou Toshio

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I took an SR-less offensive team to #12 on the leaderboard, though I couldn't get past that point. For an offensive team that depends on "hedging" the odds by using lots of powerful wall-breaking moves and U-turn to keep the initiative, you don't really have the time to set SR up.
 

Darkmalice

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Suicide leads are really good. SR is available to many, and none are immune to it. The only OU Fire pokemon, despite Fire being the best attacking type, resist SR (Heatran and Infernape); no others can make the OU jump. Same goes for Bug pokemon save Bug's worse typing and Yanmega, who's loosing popularity. Enough said.
 
I must disagree darknessmalice, I think Moltres would leap in popularity (maybe not OU quite yet). That was the only thing holding it back, but if SR was banned it wouldn't have worry about wasting it's great defenses. It single handedly counters the metagames biggest threats: Skymin, Heatran, and Scizor. Not even Hidden Power Ice is a problem. Zapdos often fails against Heatran, or worse, Heat Wave misses.

Late game Yanmega sweeps would also surely increase, and so would Bellyzard.

I hate Stealth Rocks because it turns a beast like Azelf into a support Pokemon. It makes a Legendary Bird into scrap, especially if you're forced to switch out when a Flash Fire Pokemon comes in.

Must agree that Gyarados and Salamance would run rampant, but not something that can't be countered. Porygon2 still beats Gyarados, and anything with STAB Ice Shard can come in on Salamance as it Dragon Dances. It would just make the counters needed on more teams.

Why not test though? It'll be fun to see. If the test succeeds, I think there should be a Stealth Rock Clause much like there's an OHKO clause.
 
Yea I'd love to test a SR-less metagame. I think it's a bit silly to say "Stealth Rock leaves, Salamence and Gyarados will run rampant" because so far that's pure theory because EVERYONE USES SR. I never used SR in any of my teams and still I never had huge problems with those two. Granted, Focus Sashers are annoying, but with the huge popularity of Priority Attacks right now, they're not all that threatening...unless their name is Lucario.
 
You can't counter threats 100% of the time. It not about saying if we remove SR say Jolteon can still OHKO with thunderboly. its about saying can my -1 Snorlax get that crucial 2HKO with Body Slam before Gyarados set up on it's ass. Yo give the argument that there are already pokemon that can OHKO another pokemon is completley and utterly flawed, so please don't try to bring that up. We all know now that you can't counter every threat in the game and sometimes its about playing around those threats. SR helps with this immensely.

We know in DP, that the Pokemon you bring into the beginning of the battle play a huge part in whether you win the game or not. If you have a bad matchup you're in trouble. Stealth Rock can help you with this grabbing some crucial 2HKOs where they may be nessecary. Removing SR from the Metagame will only increase the "difference" in team matchups that the advent of DPPt brought with it. In short removing SR will make it even harder for a team with bad matchups to another to win, and maybe yes you should build you team better or whatever, but I don't think its as broken as you think Infinity, I just don't, you're guilty of Skiddles mistake too.

If you have no Gyarados counter / revenge killer then how on earth are you supposed to win? And who switches Gyarados into Snorlax anyways?

I know there are some Pokemon you can play around instead of directly having an answer for them, but against top tier threats like Gyarados and Salamence, that's simply not good enough.

Stealth Rock hurts Gyarados and Salamence, yes, but it also hurts their counters. 12% doesn't look like much, but it often makes that crucial attack a 2HKO. My point is Stealth Rock hurts more than it helps. It would make Gyarados and Salamence harder to beat, but the amount of Pokemon it makes viable again is obscene. Moltres, Magmortar, Charizard would all probably have a chance at OU, and that's just a few off the top of my head.
 
The thing is, Stealth Rock is centralizing, but the metagame plays out just fine with it.

If anything, banning Stealth Rock would change the metagame enough to make it almost unrecognizable. Most likely, people will just play under a "Stealth Rock Clause" to play with STealth Rock or not.
 
Sorry, but from all the _real_ testing done, Stealth Rock has proven to be the most defining element in every metagame it's used in. Just look at how you play right now. You guys definitely need to test it more thoroughly.
 

Colonel M

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As I've posted in the PR thread, the last thing that we need is a witch-hunt. Unfortunately, the Stealth Rock banning has become that. And the reason I say that is because it is simply a useful move.

To define a move "broken" is nigh impossible compared to a Pokemon being broken. One move cannot be the argument here as bigger pictures must be looked upon. By the way, Stealth Rock may ditch the usual Flying / Bug / Fire / Ice-types, but let's be serious about this: not many of them are good. And for those that are good (Gyarados, Salamence, Shaymin-S, Yanmega) are a pain in the ass without the move. The metagame, for the past year, seems fine with it. And seriously IMO, to waste valuable Pokemon such as Azelf, Infernape, and Aerodactyl just to set up Stealth Rock is kind of stupid to me. These Pokemon do a helluva lot better with their other jobs: mainly sweeping! Its a move that offers balance to the metagame, and without Stealth Rock many, MANY Pokemon would do a lot better. You keep using the argument "Spikes will replace Stealth Rock" but name me very useful Spikes users? I can think of "two" in OU: Forretress and Skarmory. See the picture? Magnezone could easily pick these too off anyway without Shed Shell (and I could use Knock Off somewhere on my team, maybe Shuckle would like to help?) Roserade is a poor excuse because it loses its most valuable move: Sleep Powder.

The reason Spinners aren't as useful in D/P comes only partially from Ghost-types. It just requires time. A lot of strategies don't HAVE time to fool around. Some have to act quickly upon threats or be punished for trying. And by the way: have you ever thought of using Pursuit-users to beat those pesky Ghost-types? I remember that Weavile still has Pursuit and is perfectly capable of using it. Same with Scizor, Heracross, Metagross, and Tyranitar.

Focus Sash argument I've already addressed as far as Spikes and Toxic Spikes. But let's think of more things: how many Hail teams do you see nowadays? Not very many. And even something gimmicky such as Focus Sash Lucario and other "Sandstorm immune" Pokemon don't really gain the upper hand. They survive a move, but at what cost? In this case, OHKOing Skarmory.

Stall teams lose a good chunk of use without Stealth Rock. This is why I'd argue that it CAN create a "balance" for teams. Do you know how hard it is to handle Life Orbed Salamence? How about Life Orb Gyarados? Celebi is 2HKOed by Ice Fang after a Dragon Dance. That's scary folks. And Waterfall still 2HKOes Skarmory for the most part. By removing Stealth Rock, you have EASILY opened a new door, and not a good one in my opinion. You've allowed hyper-offense to be very easy.

And many tiers can argue this too. Without Stealth Rock, Lugia alone in Ubers is just a monster. It's not called a "Great Wall" for no stupid reason. Remember Ho-oh? Hope you enjoy boosted Sacred Fire in the sun with a side of 50% chance of a burn. In UU it keeps Pokemon like Glaceon, Shedinja, and other threats out of the picture too that could topple the metagame within itself. Articuno would say a lot of things different in that tier too...

I know my arguments aren't the best, but before you go and say "let's ban Stealth Rock" THINK this over very carefully. Without it, how would the metagame change alone? What threats have suddenly become more viable and how would it influence it? Does Stealth Rock really "break" the metagame or does it cause balance? I'm honestly on the fence when it comes to this statement. Though I prefer it to stay, I can see how it could be bannable (but unlikely in my honest opinion). Let's not make this a witch-hunt because next thing I'll see it will be "let's ban Scizor" and other dumb arguments. Not saying the Stealth Rock banning is completely stupid, I just don't see what good comes out of it in the end.
 

jrrrrrrr

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Stealth Rock may be the most influential move in the metagame, but that does not make it overpowered. There is quite the difference. Every game is centralized. If D/P is centralized around Stealth Rock, then so be it.

Stealth Rock centralzing OU is much better than any one pokemon doing the same job. With Stealth Rock, you can open up all kinds of new strategies. For every door that is closed because of Stealth Rock, two more are opened.

I would actually argue that Stealth Rock decentralizes the game. Salamence would be beyond unstoppable if SR were banned. Because its weakened by SR, now things like Lucario and Life Orb Suicune become much more usable.

Now that Stealth Rock is widely acknowledged as centralizing, the question becomes "is it overpowering?" The simple answer is no.

No well-built team is going to lose just because Stealth Rock is on the field. No pokemon magically becomes unstoppable with SR out (now that Garchomp is gone, at least). "Common" does not equate to "overpowered", it's the same reason why Heatran should never be banned despite the fact that it will probably never let go of the #1 most used spot.

Although an SR-less metagame would certainly be interesting, I think everyone against it is really overestimating its power. Influence /=/ power level
 
I'm currenty running a tourney on PokeCommunity with SR banned in mind, and it'd be interesting to see how things go.

I'll let ya in on the results.
 
Stealth Rock is not overpowered. Not in the least.

It seems like whatever is 'at the top' as far as usage goes is automatically ban worthy. I really don't understand that way of thinking.

OP, instead of guessing what the game would be like without SR, why don't you tell us why the game is broken at present?
 

reachzero

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If anything, Stealth Rock actually serves to keep the game healthy with the way it checks otherwise massive threats like Salamence, Gyarados, Zapdos and Yanmega. Actually, I disagree with your very first statement, about there not being any super-fast taunter that can stop a suicide lead. Crobat and Aerodactyl both can, though granted Crobat can't really stay in to taunt Aero, which is a pseudo-suicide lead in its own right. For the record, I question whether a suicide lead even makes sense for any team that isn't geared to pure offense. Once the suicide lead is dead, a Rapid Spinner can simply come in and clear the field, and you have no way to put them back up. Which might not be so bad if you have a spin blocker, but suicide lead/spin blocker already ties up two spots, and you lose flexibility (and become a little more predictable). The last and most significant problem I have with banning Stealth Rock is methodological. Is it ever right to ban a single move? Where would that take us? Could we end up banning Swords Dance or Dragon Dance next as "overcentralizing"? We have to draw the line somewhere. Smogon has banned several pokemon, but has never banned a move. Why should we start?

Edit: In response to the admission that teams without Stealth Rock tend to suck, I must confess that once of twice I've used teams that coincidentally didn't had any pokemon that had Earthquake. These teams also tended to suck. The fact that a move is very, very good does not make it broken. A move cannot be overcentralized, or EQ, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam would be.
 
A move can be over centralizing and make the game not so pleasant to play. OHKO moves and Double Team, anyone?

People will you learn to READ the thread before you throw something out there? Many of the people in this thread already have said a number of reasons why they would like to see SR thrown out, ex. giving Moltres a chance, punishing when unneeded, etc.

As for Pursuiters such as Weavile it has to take a hit from SR to come in. Not to mention it has to potentially deal with say a Gengar's Focus Blast or get OHKO/2HKOed by Ghosts using other moves. One could argue for Tyranitar, but it suffers from extreme Fighting weak just like Weavile.

There are a number of pokémon that just force switches just by being out there since you need to quickly get to a counter or be swept. By switching to these counters you have to deal with taking a hit of SR too and like how some point out that's all that's needed to push something else to get OHKOed or 2HKOed.

In October in the Standard and Uber ladder the most common leads are SR users. Sure they can get Taunted on the first turn, but they can switch in later.

I would ask before you post something that you carefully think out both sides.
 

cim

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A move can be over centralizing and make the game not so pleasant to play. OHKO moves and Double Team, anyone?

True. Who here said that moves inherently can't be too powerful?

Aside: What is "overcentralizing"?

People will you learn to READ the thread before you throw something out there? Many of the people in this thread already have said a number of reasons why they would like to see SR thrown out, ex. giving Moltres a chance, punishing when unneeded, etc.

To be honest no one is responding to the points in your first post because they don't really make sense.

As for Pursuiters such as Weavile it has to take a hit from SR to come in. Not to mention it has to potentially deal with say a Gengar's Focus Blast or get OHKO/2HKOed by Ghosts using other moves. One could argue for Tyranitar, but it suffers from extreme Fighting weak just like Weavile.

What does this have to do with _anything?_

There are a number of pokémon that just force switches just by being out there since you need to quickly get to a counter or be swept. By switching to these counters you have to deal with taking a hit of SR too and like how some point out that's all that's needed to push something else to get OHKOed or 2HKOed.

Then it's not a counter anymore. Is this "broken"? How?

In October in the Standard and Uber ladder the most common leads are SR users. Sure they can get Taunted on the first turn, but they can switch in later.

No one is saying that SR is always stoppable with Taunt or that it is always stoppable at all. Does not being able to stop something make it broken?

I would ask before you post something that you carefully think out both sides.

I'll ask of you the same.
Uh, guys? What seriously spawned this discussion? SR is the key to the metagame, but why are we looking actively for things to ban?

j7r is right on the money here. The move is everywhere and changes the metagame. That doesn't mean it's broken, simply because it is used all the time.

As for the "we've banned moves that are overcentralizing before" argument, take a look at the other banned moves (which are under review anyway): Double Team and OHKO. Do either of these bans have anything to do with "too many teams use the move, not using it puts you at a disadvantage"? Hell no. Double Team isn't "too common" or "overpowered / you must have it to win", at least not on the only server with it allowed (Official). But at what point have we banned a move for being (1) good and (2) on every team?

Sorry if my argument is sucky, I'm really tired.
 
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